Everyone will likely go through life and end with someone being glad they are gone, because as social creatures we have a tendency to do harm to each other, either voluntarily or not. Celebrating or being happy someone who tormented you (in whatever capacity) is gone is just as much a part of humanity as Jerry Falwell and his rehtoric was. I'm not saying we shouldn't strive to be better, but I also don't think it is as bad as you and Shinto make it sound.
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When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
I mean okay -- so you don't respect and/or hate yourself? I mean, okay I guess.
Will you celebrate when you die?
No, but as I said above, I'm sure someone will. But then, I haven't directly harmed myself, have I? The fact that the distinction needs to be explained is perplexing.
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When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
(a)Ok so he said liberal groups were repsonsible for 9/11, and then he apologized directly. And before that someone on his staff wrote an article about Tinky Winky being gay, which was not an original idea, and he denounced the article and had a good sense of humor about it.
What else do you guys have that defines him as a hateful bigot who spat bile, or whatever else we'recalling him here? (b) More to the point, do the two examples above sentence him to death?
(a)You really want to make that challenge? Cause there are plenty.
(b) Nobody's sentencing anyone to death! Will you stop that already?
Ok so he said liberal groups were repsonsible for 9/11, and then he apologized directly. And before that someone on his staff wrote an article about Tinky Winky being gay, which was not an original idea, and he denounced the article and had a good sense of humor about it.
What else do you guys have that defines him as a hateful bigot who spat bile, or whatever else we'recalling him here? More to the point, do the two examples above sentence him to death?
AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.
There is no separation of church and state. Modern US Supreme Courts have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the churches by misinterpreting what the Founders had in mind in the First Amendment to the Constitution.
But these things speak evil of those things, verse 10 [reading from Jude] which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Look at the Metropolitan Community Church today, the gay church, almost accepted into the World Council of Churches. Almost, the vote was against them. But they will try again and again until they get in, and the tragedy is that they would get one vote. Because they are spoken of here in Jude as being brute beasts, that is going to the baser lust of the flesh to live immorally, and so Jude describes this as apostasy. But thank God this vile and satanic system will one day be utterly annihilated and there'll be a celebration in heaven.
Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan.
The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews.
AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters.
I mean okay -- so you don't respect and/or hate yourself? I mean, okay I guess.
Will you celebrate when you die?
No, but as I said above, I'm sure someone will. But then, I haven't directly harmed myself, have I? The fact that the distinction needs to be explained is perplexing.
You're equating speech to harm, man. People have a right to free speech and I encourage them to use it. I would never wish death on someone for what they said. I guess this is where we disagree.
I mean okay -- so you don't respect and/or hate yourself? I mean, okay I guess.
Will you celebrate when you die?
No, but as I said above, I'm sure someone will. But then, I haven't directly harmed myself, have I? The fact that the distinction needs to be explained is perplexing.
You're equating speech to harm, man. People have a right to free speech and I encourage them to use it. I would never wish death on someone for what they said. I guess this is where we disagree.
It doesn't help that you refuse to consider anything from outside your personal box of "all death is bad and words can't hurt anything ever".
I mean okay -- so you don't respect and/or hate yourself? I mean, okay I guess.
Will you celebrate when you die?
No, but as I said above, I'm sure someone will. But then, I haven't directly harmed myself, have I? The fact that the distinction needs to be explained is perplexing.
You're equating speech to harm, man. People have a right to free speech and I encourage them to use it. I would never wish death on someone for what they said. I guess this is where we disagree.
Not really... I just think there are more shades of gray then you do. I support free speech, I support speech that makes your blood boil and makes you so angry you could scream. I think everyone has the right and, in fact, the duty to say what they want.
But I also believe that what you say is a reflection of who you are. And there are some things that I, as a person, find fundamentally offensive. Just like Falwell would be offended by my support of gays and feminists. I can have a natural human emotion based on that. It's the same justification I have for Imus being fired. I fully support free speech, but with it comes the notion that you will offend or enrage someone who, when you pass, will be glad of it.
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When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
If speech hurts you, talk back. I still think it's poor form to celebrate someone's death, particularly when all that person did was say incredibly dumb shit. In my opinion, it really makes you little better than the man whose passing you're celebrating, so there.
In my opinion, it really makes you little better than the man whose passing you're celebrating
The only thing that can make one "little better" than Falwell is a 73-year-long life of "saying incredibly dumb shit". Celebrating the passing of same doesn't reflect on one's character at all, IMO.
EDIT: Unless one were in the camps that Falwell actively and loudly opposed - then I think a celebration would be completely understandable.
Falwell didn't just say dumb shit. He actively encoruaged people to live by the same tenents he did.
This isn't being glad Jim Varney died because you hated "Ernest Goes to Camp".
Soooo ... any person who encourages other people to agree with their ideas is reprehensible now? Or do you want to correct your terrible wording there?
If speech hurts you, talk back. I still think it's poor form to celebrate someone's death, particularly when all that person did was say incredibly dumb shit. In my opinion, it really makes you little better than the man whose passing you're celebrating, so there.
edit: this was in response to VC.
Your opinion of me doesn't constitute a valid argument. And if you think all he did was say stupid things, you're still refusing to accept the possibility that words can cause harm.
In my opinion, it really makes you little better than the man whose passing you're celebrating
The only thing that can make one "little better" than Falwell is a 73-year-long life of "saying incredibly dumb shit". Celebrating the passing of same doesn't reflect on one's character at all, IMO.
EDIT: Unless one were in the camps that Falwell actively and loudly opposed - then I think a celebration would be completely understandable.
It's cool -- agree to disagree. I think celebrating death is gross. Wanna talk about how I oppose capital punishment, too? It's all different points on the same spectrum to me. I respect life greatly, I encourage others to do the same.
If speech hurts you, talk back. I still think it's poor form to celebrate someone's death, particularly when all that person did was say incredibly dumb shit. In my opinion, it really makes you little better than the man whose passing you're celebrating, so there.
edit: this was in response to VC.
Your opinion of me doesn't constitute a valid argument. And if you think all he did was say stupid things, you're still refusing to accept the possibility that words can cause harm.
Here:
I don't like Jerry Falwell because he said dehumanizing things.
I think celebrating Falwell's death dehumanizes him.
See where I'm going with this?
Also -- I realize words can cause harm. I don't wish death on people for what they say, though.
In my opinion, it really makes you little better than the man whose passing you're celebrating
The only thing that can make one "little better" than Falwell is a 73-year-long life of "saying incredibly dumb shit". Celebrating the passing of same doesn't reflect on one's character at all, IMO.
EDIT: Unless one were in the camps that Falwell actively and loudly opposed - then I think a celebration would be completely understandable.
It's cool -- agree to disagree. I think celebrating death is gross. Wanna talk about how I oppose capital punishment, too? It's all different points on the same spectrum to me. I respect life greatly, I encourage others to do the same.
I also oppose capital punishment. Maybe I'm crazy, but there is room in my world view so I can be opposed to the loss of a life and still be glad someone is gone. Perhaps it has to do with the wasted potential more then the actual person, regardless, there it is...
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When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Falwell didn't just say dumb shit. He actively encoruaged people to live by the same tenents he did.
This isn't being glad Jim Varney died because you hated "Ernest Goes to Camp".
Soooo ... any person who encourages other people to agree with their ideas is reprehensible now? Or do you want to correct your terrible wording there?
Don't be douchebag. I'm talking about Jerry Falwell. Period.
If speech hurts you, talk back. I still think it's poor form to celebrate someone's death, particularly when all that person did was say incredibly dumb shit. In my opinion, it really makes you little better than the man whose passing you're celebrating, so there.
edit: this was in response to VC.
Your opinion of me doesn't constitute a valid argument. And if you think all he did was say stupid things, you're still refusing to accept the possibility that words can cause harm.
Here:
I don't like Jerry Falwell because he said dehumanizing things.
I think celebrating Falwell's death dehumanizes him.
See where I'm going with this?
Also -- I realize words can cause harm. I don't wish death on people for what they say, though.
The fact that Falwell said dehumanizing things isn't why I don't like him. I don't like Jerry Falwell because he influenced large numbers of people to believe that anyone who isn't straight or believes women should be considered full people deserves death and eternal damnation.
I don't see how celebrating his death dehumanizes him. Would celebrating his birth dehumanize him too?
If speech hurts you, talk back. I still think it's poor form to celebrate someone's death, particularly when all that person did was say incredibly dumb shit. In my opinion, it really makes you little better than the man whose passing you're celebrating, so there.
Falwell didn't just "say incredibly dumb shit". He said incredibly dumb shit using an international soapbox with the intent of vilifying and ostracising everyone and everything he found disagreeable. Don't diminish his malignant influence simply because you want to make a point.
The fact that Falwell said dehumanizing things isn't why I don't like him. I don't like Jerry Falwell because he influenced large numbers of people to believe that anyone who isn't straight or believes women should be considered full people deserves death and eternal damnation.
I don't see how celebrating his death dehumanizes him. Would celebrating his birth dehumanize him too?
Right -- Falwell said those people were unworthy of the treatment that other people receive because of the beliefs and personal habits they held, despite the fact that their beliefs and personal habits were benign. In essence, he said they were sub-human and deserved less than others because of their beliefs.
This is similar to saying you wish Falwell is dead, because you are saying that Falwell, unlike other human beings who you would extend respect to, doesn't deserve respect toward his life because of what he believes.
This conversation is really grating on me. Falwell is an asshole. He died. I am not "happy" that he died.
The fact that Falwell said dehumanizing things isn't why I don't like him. I don't like Jerry Falwell because he influenced large numbers of people to believe that anyone who isn't straight or believes women should be considered full people deserves death and eternal damnation.
I don't see how celebrating his death dehumanizes him. Would celebrating his birth dehumanize him too?
Right -- Falwell said those people were unworthy of the treatment that other people receive because of the beliefs and personal habits they held, despite the fact that their beliefs and personal habits were benign. In essence, he said they were sub-human and deserved less than others because of their beliefs.
This is similar to saying you wish Falwell is dead, because you are saying that Falwell, unlike other human beings who you would extend respect to, doesn't deserve respect toward his life because of what he believes.
This conversation is really grating on me. Falwell is an asshole. He died. I am not "happy" that he died.
No, I'm saying that Falwell caused a great deal more harm than most other human beings are in a position to ever be able to cause. He was more than just an asshole, and I am happy he's dead. If you want to know what's grating, try sitting here and having people tell you you're saying shit you're not over and over and over and over without actually responding to anything you do say.
The fact that Falwell said dehumanizing things isn't why I don't like him. I don't like Jerry Falwell because he influenced large numbers of people to believe that anyone who isn't straight or believes women should be considered full people deserves death and eternal damnation.
I don't see how celebrating his death dehumanizes him. Would celebrating his birth dehumanize him too?
Right -- Falwell said those people were unworthy of the treatment that other people receive because of the beliefs and personal habits they held, despite the fact that their beliefs and personal habits were benign. In essence, he said they were sub-human and deserved less than others because of their beliefs.
This is similar to saying you wish Falwell is dead, because you are saying that Falwell, unlike other human beings who you would extend respect to, doesn't deserve respect toward his life because of what he believes.
This conversation is really grating on me. Falwell is an asshole. He died. I am not "happy" that he died.
No one is asking you to be. What people are asking you to comprehend is that it is possible to, at the same time, be glad he is gone and still have respect for other people's right to live.
VC -- I know you are more comfortable navigating this position than some of the other posters here, because you are pretty comfortable hating. Just know that your hate for Falwell and his ilk is similar in nature to their own, because you are hating people for their beliefs, but yes I know you feel justified in doing this because you have justified your beliefs to yourself. Personally I think it's a problem to hate someone for their beliefs.
No, I'm saying that Falwell caused a great deal more harm than most other human beings are in a position to ever be able to cause. He was more than just an asshole, and I am happy he's dead. If you want to know what's grating, try sitting here and having people tell you you're saying shit you're not over and over and over and over without actually responding to anything you do say.
So what you're saying is that you would like to kill everyone you disagree with?
Also, why do you hate our freedoms?
Edit: Celery, you're mistaken in assuming that it's just Falwell's beliefs that people are taking issue with here. His ability to spread them and his intent to use them to encourage institutionalised bigotry are far more important. That's why it's difficult to simply separate the man from what he said and did. In many respects, he was what he said and did.
No one is asking you to be. What people are asking you to comprehend is that it is possible to, at the same time, be glad he is gone and still have respect for other people's right to live.
Of course it's possible, but I am saying that celebrating a person's death is poor form.
VC -- I know you are more comfortable navigating this position than some of the other posters here, because you are pretty comfortable hating. Just know that your hate for Falwell and his ilk is similar in nature to their own, because you are hating people for their beliefs, but yes I know you feel justified in doing this because you have justified your beliefs to yourself. Personally I think it's a problem to hate someone for their beliefs.
Are you planning to respond to my arguments at any point or are you content to just sit there and tell me how you get to go to heaven and I don't because you buy into some absurd dogmatic belief that dying makes a contemptable human being suddenly worthy of respect?
VC -- I know you are more comfortable navigating this position than some of the other posters here, because you are pretty comfortable hating. Just know that your hate for Falwell and his ilk is similar in nature to their own, because you are hating people for their beliefs, but yes I know you feel justified in doing this because you have justified your beliefs to yourself. Personally I think it's a problem to hate someone for their beliefs.
Are you planning to respond to my arguments at any point or are you content to just sit there and tell me how you get to go to heaven and I don't because you buy into some absurd dogmatic belief that dying makes a contemptable human being suddenly worthy of respect?
VC what the hell are your arguments? That their belief is uniquely worth of contempt, and thus people who believe it are as well? Is that not hating someone for their beliefs? Have I misunderstood here?
VC's saying it's okay to hate someone for being hateful, as far as I can see. But then celery is saying "aha, but now you're hateful!" Is that about the gist of it?
VC's saying it's okay to hate someone for being hateful, as far as I can see. But then celery is saying "aha, but now you're hateful!" Is that about the gist of it?
VC's saying it's okay to hate someone for being hateful, as far as I can see. But then celery is saying "aha, but now you're hateful!" Is that about the gist of it?
I'm saying it's okay to be glad that someone who devoted their life to hurting innocent people is dead. And celery's saying "aha, but now you're hateful!". But you were pretty close.
I see no problem hating people who seek to impinge on the liberties and happiness of others. Hate itself is not a bad thing, just the targets its directed against.
I see no problem hating people who seek to impinge on the liberties and happiness of others. Hate itself is not a bad thing, just the targets its directed against.
Just know that your hate for Falwell and his ilk is similar in nature to their own, because you are hating people for their beliefs, but yes I know you feel justified in doing this because you have justified your beliefs to yourself.
I might be missing your point, but to me this is dangerously close to "Christians believe God exists, atheists believe he doesn't! It's the same thing!"
No. It isn't.
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I can't speak for Violent Chemistry, but are there no beliefs that you'd be willing to hate someone for? If someone told me that they believed blacks were an inferior race and deserved to be gas chambered along with those damn Jews, then I really can't see not hating them. I suppose if someone harbored beliefs like that but never acted on them in any way then they might not be deserving of hatred, but that sounds like an unlikely scenario, and Falwell most certainly acted on his beliefs. I don't feel guilty for saying that I hated Jerry Falwell for what he believed, and while I initially felt a bit guilty for cheering when I heard of his death, that feeling has passed too.
I can't speak for Violent Chemistry, but are there no beliefs that you'd be willing to hate someone for? If someone told me that they believed blacks were an inferior race and deserved to be gas chambered along with those damn Jews, then I really can't see not hating them. I suppose if someone harbored beliefs like that but never acted on them in any way then they might not be deserving of hatred, but that sounds like an unlikely scenario, and Falwell most certainly acted on his beliefs. I don't feel guilty for saying that I hated Jerry Falwell for what he believed, and while I initially felt a bit guilty for cheering when I heard of his death, that feeling has passed too.
I can't speak for celery here, but no, there are no beleifs I am willing to hate someone for. Hatred is dehumanizing and just begets more hatred. There are beleifs I would die fighting against, but none worth hating for. Hatred is self-centered and dehumanizing to others. The choice is either hatred or understanding. You can understand someone intelectually and hate them at the same time, but real understanding of another human being requires a level of empathy that hatred precludes. It is a very difficult thing to give up hating others, especially people that hate you. We should try anyway.
Posts
Oh, okay. You just can't read. That explains a lot of the problem here.
Oh, and from the 2nd page of this thread...
Will you celebrate when you die?
That is correct. Which makes me awful glad I didn't equate the two.
But let's talk about that. I think the point here is not that Hate-Speech=Murder, but that Hate-Speech and Murder are both assholish things to do.
That he's a lesser asshole than a garden-variety murderer is more beside the point than noticing that he was, by and large, an asshole.
EDIT: And, honestly, I'm usually fairly happy when I find out that an asshole (of any degree) won't be in my sphere of awareness from here on out.
I don't think it matters either way, honestly. Don't go to the parties if you don't want to.
No, but as I said above, I'm sure someone will. But then, I haven't directly harmed myself, have I? The fact that the distinction needs to be explained is perplexing.
(a)You really want to make that challenge? Cause there are plenty.
(b) Nobody's sentencing anyone to death! Will you stop that already?
More gems here: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/foulwell.htm
Speech can be harm. Libel? Slander? Inciting a riot?
Falwell never gave AIDS to people, he just said stupid shit about it.
It doesn't help that you refuse to consider anything from outside your personal box of "all death is bad and words can't hurt anything ever".
Not really... I just think there are more shades of gray then you do. I support free speech, I support speech that makes your blood boil and makes you so angry you could scream. I think everyone has the right and, in fact, the duty to say what they want.
But I also believe that what you say is a reflection of who you are. And there are some things that I, as a person, find fundamentally offensive. Just like Falwell would be offended by my support of gays and feminists. I can have a natural human emotion based on that. It's the same justification I have for Imus being fired. I fully support free speech, but with it comes the notion that you will offend or enrage someone who, when you pass, will be glad of it.
edit: this was in response to VC.
This isn't being glad Jim Varney died because you hated "Ernest Goes to Camp".
What better reason to celebrate, especially when all that person did was say incredibly dumb shit?
The only thing that can make one "little better" than Falwell is a 73-year-long life of "saying incredibly dumb shit". Celebrating the passing of same doesn't reflect on one's character at all, IMO.
EDIT: Unless one were in the camps that Falwell actively and loudly opposed - then I think a celebration would be completely understandable.
Your opinion of me doesn't constitute a valid argument. And if you think all he did was say stupid things, you're still refusing to accept the possibility that words can cause harm.
I don't like Jerry Falwell because he said dehumanizing things.
I think celebrating Falwell's death dehumanizes him.
See where I'm going with this?
Also -- I realize words can cause harm. I don't wish death on people for what they say, though.
I also oppose capital punishment. Maybe I'm crazy, but there is room in my world view so I can be opposed to the loss of a life and still be glad someone is gone. Perhaps it has to do with the wasted potential more then the actual person, regardless, there it is...
Don't be douchebag. I'm talking about Jerry Falwell. Period.
The fact that Falwell said dehumanizing things isn't why I don't like him. I don't like Jerry Falwell because he influenced large numbers of people to believe that anyone who isn't straight or believes women should be considered full people deserves death and eternal damnation.
I don't see how celebrating his death dehumanizes him. Would celebrating his birth dehumanize him too?
Falwell didn't just "say incredibly dumb shit". He said incredibly dumb shit using an international soapbox with the intent of vilifying and ostracising everyone and everything he found disagreeable. Don't diminish his malignant influence simply because you want to make a point.
This is similar to saying you wish Falwell is dead, because you are saying that Falwell, unlike other human beings who you would extend respect to, doesn't deserve respect toward his life because of what he believes.
This conversation is really grating on me. Falwell is an asshole. He died. I am not "happy" that he died.
I'm sure everyone's done something I can berate them for after they die.
No, I'm saying that Falwell caused a great deal more harm than most other human beings are in a position to ever be able to cause. He was more than just an asshole, and I am happy he's dead. If you want to know what's grating, try sitting here and having people tell you you're saying shit you're not over and over and over and over without actually responding to anything you do say.
No one is asking you to be. What people are asking you to comprehend is that it is possible to, at the same time, be glad he is gone and still have respect for other people's right to live.
So what you're saying is that you would like to kill everyone you disagree with?
Also, why do you hate our freedoms?
Edit: Celery, you're mistaken in assuming that it's just Falwell's beliefs that people are taking issue with here. His ability to spread them and his intent to use them to encourage institutionalised bigotry are far more important. That's why it's difficult to simply separate the man from what he said and did. In many respects, he was what he said and did.
Are you planning to respond to my arguments at any point or are you content to just sit there and tell me how you get to go to heaven and I don't because you buy into some absurd dogmatic belief that dying makes a contemptable human being suddenly worthy of respect?
I'm saying it's okay to be glad that someone who devoted their life to hurting innocent people is dead. And celery's saying "aha, but now you're hateful!". But you were pretty close.
I might be missing your point, but to me this is dangerously close to "Christians believe God exists, atheists believe he doesn't! It's the same thing!"
No. It isn't.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/17/us/17king.html?ref=us
The harder the rain, honey, the sweeter the sun.
I can't speak for celery here, but no, there are no beleifs I am willing to hate someone for. Hatred is dehumanizing and just begets more hatred. There are beleifs I would die fighting against, but none worth hating for. Hatred is self-centered and dehumanizing to others. The choice is either hatred or understanding. You can understand someone intelectually and hate them at the same time, but real understanding of another human being requires a level of empathy that hatred precludes. It is a very difficult thing to give up hating others, especially people that hate you. We should try anyway.
--LeVar Burton