I always hated barbed stranglers as IG. Pretty hard counter there.
Can't smoke grenade them like a normal suppression team. It's easy to snare your one tier 1 melee unit (your commander) to stop him from tying the BS up.
Catachan grenade barrage knocks them too far away to effectively fight them. Barrage is kinda a dumb power... knocks enemies way too far to capitalize on.
Catachan need to melee any warriors he builds, not shoot them. Not sure if you can barrage them into yourself in that case.
Also, Nids are a fairly power heavy in T1, so you should be able to build a HWT as well. Though you are probably looking at being pretty req strangled by the point you are at 2 GM, 1 Sent, 1 HWT, 1 Cat.
Still, its an easier matchup than anything else. (I think Orks are at roughly the same difficulty, or at least, I dont have too many problems against Orks when I play IG).
So, Jeff Lydell's twitter seems to imply that Kaptin Bluddflagg may be available for multiplayer soon. Source.
Fellas, I gotta have more Bluddflagg. Easily the most fun I have had in DOW2 thus far has just been Orky antics. I prefer the Kunningly brutal methodology, make it stompy, sass up dat posh eldar, find me some HATS. I will have a Kaptain Bluddflagg comic to post for you gents tomorrow.
I think I'm the only person in the world who doesn't know anything about Spongebob. I don't have kids and my siblings were older when that came out, I guess.
I think I'm the only person in the world who doesn't know anything about Spongebob. I don't have kids and my siblings were older when that came out, I guess.
Youtube the themesong, then look at the link again.
They have entire new models for Space Marines as the Dark Angels chapter, where their TSM wear robes, the Force Commander now has a winged helm, and a bunch of other cool stuff.
I look forward to an Eldar as Dark Eldar reskin, or an Ork to Freebooter skin pack.
They have entire new models for Space Marines as the Dark Angels chapter, where their TSM wear robes, the Force Commander now has a winged helm, and a bunch of other cool stuff.
I look forward to an Eldar as Dark Eldar reskin, or an Ork to Freebooter skin pack.
Looks like that's coinciding with the wargear update for Last Stand.
Cool but not really my thing. It's hard to see my Force Commander as an imposing presence when he's wearing bunny ears.
Yes I know they're "wings", he still looks like he's wearing bunny ears.
I have little doubt though that when they do a beardy Space Wolves DLC they're going to sell tonnes.
Either way, £5 a bit too much for me to be interested in a skin pack. I realise in the days of DD and DLC, pricing structures have gone completely abstract and there's rarely such a thing as a price / value correlation in these things. But £5 is about the price of one of the cheaper indie games, or even 1/4 the cost of Retribution to begin with.
Maybe at £2-£3 I'd consider a pack if it looked cool.
Looks like that's coinciding with the wargear update for Last Stand.
Cool but not really my thing. It's hard to see my Force Commander as an imposing presence when he's wearing bunny ears.
Yes I know they're "wings", he still looks like he's wearing bunny ears.
I have little doubt though that when they do a beardy Space Wolves DLC they're going to sell tonnes.
Either way, £5 a bit too much for me to be interested in a skin pack. I realise in the days of DD and DLC, pricing structures have gone completely abstract and there's rarely such a thing as a price / value correlation in these things. But £5 is about the price of one of the cheaper indie games, or even 1/4 the cost of Retribution to begin with.
Maybe at £2-£3 I'd consider a pack if it looked cool.
Yeah I'm not digging the Dark Angels. Granted I never have but it could have been neat.
Space Wolves might be a cool dlc but I'd rather have Grey Knight dlc model pack for space marines.
Also something cool for Chaos but I dunno what they could do.. No wait pre-heresy marine pack!
I was thinking Grey Knights as well (especially since back it was announced I thought the new race in Retribution was going to be fully Inquisition), the only problem is that by their very nature in the fluff they're much more powerful than regular Space Marines. I'm not sure it would really be suitable for a reskin.
I dunno dow2 doesn't exactly strictly follow the fluff to the letter. I would pay 5 bucks for Grey Knights and I bet others would too and probably more then Dark Angels.
They have entire new models for Space Marines as the Dark Angels chapter, where their TSM wear robes, the Force Commander now has a winged helm, and a bunch of other cool stuff.
I look forward to an Eldar as Dark Eldar reskin, or an Ork to Freebooter skin pack.
Bought.
Boughtboughtbought.
CanisAquilus on
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
I think I'm quickly getting really pissed off at this game. I convinced a friend of mine to buy Ret, but he's a complete noob. I didn't realize just how retarded this game's learning curve really is until I had to teach him how to play. Technically, it's easy, but there's so much goddamn shit that's invisible that he doesn't know anything even after I've played weeks with him.
Look how retarded this shit is. I'm teaching him about armor types and unit types. He asks what units are what. Here's what Relic's game tells him: Wraithguard- Super Heavy Infantry/ ACTUAL ARMOR TYPE: Heavy Infantry. Derp. Here's another: Ogryns - Heavy Infantry/ ACTUAL ARMOR TYPE: Super Heavy Infantry. Seriously, Relic, get your shit together.
What the fuck is a "Monster" unit, Relic? Is it Super Heavy Infantry? It is vehicle type? The answer is all of them, because TGs are SHI, Fexes and Swarmlords are vehicles. How the fuck is my friend supposed to know this? How the shit is he supposed to know how much damage units do to what unit type? How the flippin' blue hell is the supposed to guess that Catachan fists are power swords?
I literally don't know where to start with him, because there's so many things that should be clear and obvious to the player and yet they aren't there, so instead of teaching him good strats I have to spend hours telling him that all Space Marine dudes are actually heavy infantry, instead of regular infantry. I have to explain to him which random weapons do heavy melee instead of power melee even when they look completely identical to another weapon yet does something completely different.
"Why does the Chaos Lord's claws do anti-vehicle damage while the terminator ones don't?" "The Emperor wills it and so it is."
It'd sure be nice to have actual numbers detailing what things do, how fast they move, etc, etc. Gonna have to force him to download Kolaris' advanced tool tips. What bugs me is that this invisibility was a conscious, intentional decision by Relic, which fills me with rage. Some e-sport.
In other news, super units ruining the hell out of team games and FFAs. The new shit in FFA Calderis Refinery is apparently 3 Manticores who can snipe at will any of the VP power supplies while a SM ally buys a Land Raider, which he parks directly in front of 2 VPs close enough to guard his allies' Manticores. Good stuff.
In this particular game I managed to snipe their power supplies, 2 Manticores and the Land Raiders with the overwhelming might of the Swarmlord, thankfully their armies were completely out of positions and their micro was nothing to write home about, otherwise I'd have been really screwed. We still lost, but I feel I got the last insult in properly.
To be fair, the way to learn the game, is to learn the counters. Almost just 1 at a time.
Shit, I remember when TG first came out, and I couldnt figure out how the hell to kill it, and it was off to DoW2 Info to figure it out.
The monster units are generally a mish mash of SHI & Vehicle, and it IS annoying trying to figure out what will work on each one.
Super Units are kinda interesting, in that they are a good way to upgrade your army as your previous units die. Had a 3v3 earlier where we got the enemy team down to 1 VP to our 200, but they had slowly upgraded all their units to Swarmlords, Carnifexes, Baneblades, and a Land Raider. They ended up winning.
EDIT: I really wish Relic would upgrade the AI too, so that noobs could practice a bit. The AI used to be good, then after Chaos Rising, I guess they scrapped the old system to make a new one that was easier to implement the new units into, but which is very brain dead.
There's nothing interesting about super units, I must disagree.
They're just something to lean on when lose your army. If your race has an overpowered one, you will win. IF you keep your army out and bring out a weaker one you can have it work pretty well (Chaos' TGUO), and if you're orks you'll just lose if you bring out the wagon at all.
I remember watching a replay where a TM who lost everything but his tech-marine and a scout squad rushed out a land raider took on three armies simultaneously and won the game for his team. All he had was a land-raider and his TM repairing next to it (which make each other pretty much invincible). I don't even think he popped his global (which is percentage based so it does stupid healing per second for the land raider).
The opposing team was a relatively well known group of high leader-board players and they just got shat on by the Landraider. It was sad.
You're completely right about DoW though Riddox. Completely fucking impenetrable game without going and studying the damn thing. You can make assumptions if you know the board game pretty well and you'll be rewarded some times (banshee power swords are good against heavy infantry, pretty standard right?), but some things like Catachan melee, burnas being power weapons, stormboyz having power weapons have no real precedent. Some things are just different for no reason fathomable. I only saw last week that the Warlock's wargear bubble drains energy whilst everyone else's just removes energy regeneration. No tooltip for that, just random. I've always been pissed off that Havoks do like eight times the suppression as everything else at all ranges. No tooltip for that or ability or anything.
Transparency will not hurt your game! It's not like hiding this makes the game simpler or easier to play. It just makes it more confusing. You might be afraid of scaring people away with too much information but you'll do just as worse when they don't understand what is going on and have no practical way of learning.
Welcome to RTS gaming lads, there are few games which show a lot of unit information. Having some kind of key to highlight extra information would be the way to go here although you could very well argue DoW 2 has too many stats atm.
Got synapse on my tyranid finally. Actually makes bio-plasma good, since you can basically cast it infinitely at that point. Combine it with the suppression gun and I think the tyranid will actually be pretty good in last stand.
Actually, I found that bio-plasma became obsolete once I obtained synapse.
At that point Toxic Miasma gives more armor and damage in a greater area. It's energy cost finally becomes manageable as well. I like bio-plasma, but it just takes too much time to wind up. Unless you get a really good hit it won't do much more than just auto-attacking with the venom cannon. Plus, it requires things like combat expert and Searing to really destroy, which gimps your defenses.
Tyrant is definitely amongst the best Last Stand heroes. He's well rounded and has great team-play mechanics.
I run:
Venom Cannon
Miasma Armor
Warrior Nest
Biofeedback (reactive invulnerability on minion death)
Psychic Scream
Synapse
My favorite and best build so far. P. Scream is a really awesome item that often gets overlooked I think. Scream reduces enemy damage output by about 80% and hits a large area. It claims to reduce armor as well? Completely useless with vemon cannon and I've never seen a difference with allies either. Still, use it to save allies who are getting focused, or get yourself in close to hit the enemy with a Miasma. Spam 5-energy warriors to keep invulnerability up when you're in danger of dying. Spam Miasma to AoE down light troops and keep ranged allies safe from melee. Apply venom cannon sparingly.
Also, me and Woggle beat wave 20 on the new map! Our third guy dropped on wave 19... but we scrambled through it. We quickly snapped into guerrilla warfare with the farseer's conceal and mass teleport and slowly wore the wave down. It doesn't have any sustainability like wave 20 from the original map... kinda disappointing that we duo'd it.
Space Marine still totally OP.
Canis: Yeah, I was really surprised too! But I saw it draining in a replay and didn't question it.
Err yeah I actually meant that as more of a, "He will be even better". I am assuming based on his size, that he won't have any setup time on his suppression gun.
I'm currently running venom cannon, bioplasma, warrior, psychic (which I just started using and is pretty good), combat implants, and syanpse. It's working pretty decently aside from the fact I keep getting grouped with idiot level 1's.
It would be awesome if they would fix bio-plasma so it would at least not wait 3 seconds to even start the animation to fire the plasma some times.
I don't know how many of you also play Starcraft 2, but if you do and you are interested Shep Woggle and I have been working on a custom map that focuses on capture mechanics for resourcing and victory. It's going pretty well and we are always looking for more people to play.
I don't know how many of you also play Starcraft 2, but if you do and you are interested Shep Woggle and I have been working on a custom map that focuses on capture mechanics for resourcing and victory. It's going pretty well and we are always looking for more people to play.
I am rts.650 on SC2 and RyanSchutter on steam.
Man, I want to like Starcraft, but the base micromanagement just puts me right off. I realise it's a core aspect of the game, but I just feel as if it's needlessly obtuse at times for the sake of increasing the work you have to do.
Shep and I also encountered an annoying bug in the new last stand map with group teleport.
When we were doing our teleport shenanigans, I would randomly be plopped in the middle of the map instead of appearing at the destination with Shep. If I hadn't taken the jump pack, all the predators and termniators would've made mincemeat out of me every time.
The only thing that seemed to be consistent was that I was always on the opposite side of one of the on-map vehicle wrecks from the destination. Apparently their impassible-ness applies to allies along for the group teleport ride, but not the driver. :?
I think next week, same time when the Dark Angels skin DLC... I think, I don't belive they've given a release date yet, but that would make the most sence...
EDIT: Yeah, It's next week, April 6th. The Last Stand Wargear anouncement has that as the release date, and it's part of the patch.
Ok I am revising my opinion of the farseer in last stand, I finally drudged through getting mine to level 13 and it is pretty decent. Apparently just most of the farseer players are just absolute crap. Been running eldritch bolt/confuse/group teleport/eldritch storm + energy regen gear. I think the main problem is most eldar I run into aren't using confuse, that power is so great.
EB I am going to replace next level with levitation field unless it really sucks.
I can actually say a couple of high level farseerers I have played with have been the whole reason we reach level 18+. Between the infiltrate, group teleport and mass confuse they are super useful.
Had some good matches today. Back and forth battles but sometimes we'd get left behind because I had to lose my side of the map to help my friend. Thankfully I've prevented most retardo strats as soon as I see them coming, but in FFAs it always sucks when one guy is terrible and gives the other team a free victory point.
Unfortunately many had to be ruined by the incompetent booting system. Why does the guy who selects to boot the lagger get kicked? How come me and friend have our game telling us that one other guy is lagging and then either me or him get kicked? So many good games ruined by this shit. I guess I never noticed this before because I haven't played with a teammate extensively until now. Maybe if we could control each other's units when one leaves, but nope. At least the CPU is good at ninja capping.
Yeah, currently the kick system seems to be setup to kick whoever gets the most votes, but it allows the person the kick is initiated on to vote, but not the person who initiated it.
I would rather see a system where it takes 3 votes in a 2v2 or 4 votes in a 3v3 to kick someone, since I would rather have a laggy match then lose a teammate to the current chickanery.
They have entire new models for Space Marines as the Dark Angels chapter, where their TSM wear robes, the Force Commander now has a winged helm, and a bunch of other cool stuff.
I look forward to an Eldar as Dark Eldar reskin, or an Ork to Freebooter skin pack.
Posts
Catachan need to melee any warriors he builds, not shoot them. Not sure if you can barrage them into yourself in that case.
Also, Nids are a fairly power heavy in T1, so you should be able to build a HWT as well. Though you are probably looking at being pretty req strangled by the point you are at 2 GM, 1 Sent, 1 HWT, 1 Cat.
Still, its an easier matchup than anything else. (I think Orks are at roughly the same difficulty, or at least, I dont have too many problems against Orks when I play IG).
MWO: Adamski
Fellas, I gotta have more Bluddflagg. Easily the most fun I have had in DOW2 thus far has just been Orky antics. I prefer the Kunningly brutal methodology, make it stompy, sass up dat posh eldar, find me some HATS. I will have a Kaptain Bluddflagg comic to post for you gents tomorrow.
Smile, papa nurgle loves you!
Kaptain Bluddflagg comic!
http://minicrit.com/?p=67
Spoilered for gargantuan V-scroll
You sir, are worthy. I'm linking that to everyone I know, for it is sheer awesome.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
Youtube the themesong, then look at the link again.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
http://community.dawnofwar2.com/blog-post/dark-angels-invade-retribution
They have entire new models for Space Marines as the Dark Angels chapter, where their TSM wear robes, the Force Commander now has a winged helm, and a bunch of other cool stuff.
I look forward to an Eldar as Dark Eldar reskin, or an Ork to Freebooter skin pack.
MWO: Adamski
DIS YELLA GIT MAKES ME TEEF LAFF
Looks like that's coinciding with the wargear update for Last Stand.
Cool but not really my thing. It's hard to see my Force Commander as an imposing presence when he's wearing bunny ears.
Yes I know they're "wings", he still looks like he's wearing bunny ears.
I have little doubt though that when they do a beardy Space Wolves DLC they're going to sell tonnes.
Either way, £5 a bit too much for me to be interested in a skin pack. I realise in the days of DD and DLC, pricing structures have gone completely abstract and there's rarely such a thing as a price / value correlation in these things. But £5 is about the price of one of the cheaper indie games, or even 1/4 the cost of Retribution to begin with.
Maybe at £2-£3 I'd consider a pack if it looked cool.
That's confirmed and will be free
edit: goddamn these server busy messages are pissing me off
Space Wolves might be a cool dlc but I'd rather have Grey Knight dlc model pack for space marines.
Also something cool for Chaos but I dunno what they could do.. No wait pre-heresy marine pack!
I never asked for this!
I never asked for this!
Bought.
Boughtboughtbought.
Really notice how much of a req sink the Cats are, since I've started picking them up more often.
Also really looking forward to the Ogryn and Leman Russ price cuts, as well as the ability for all StormTroopers to stealth.
MWO: Adamski
I think I'm quickly getting really pissed off at this game. I convinced a friend of mine to buy Ret, but he's a complete noob. I didn't realize just how retarded this game's learning curve really is until I had to teach him how to play. Technically, it's easy, but there's so much goddamn shit that's invisible that he doesn't know anything even after I've played weeks with him.
Look how retarded this shit is. I'm teaching him about armor types and unit types. He asks what units are what. Here's what Relic's game tells him: Wraithguard- Super Heavy Infantry/ ACTUAL ARMOR TYPE: Heavy Infantry. Derp. Here's another: Ogryns - Heavy Infantry/ ACTUAL ARMOR TYPE: Super Heavy Infantry. Seriously, Relic, get your shit together.
What the fuck is a "Monster" unit, Relic? Is it Super Heavy Infantry? It is vehicle type? The answer is all of them, because TGs are SHI, Fexes and Swarmlords are vehicles. How the fuck is my friend supposed to know this? How the shit is he supposed to know how much damage units do to what unit type? How the flippin' blue hell is the supposed to guess that Catachan fists are power swords?
I literally don't know where to start with him, because there's so many things that should be clear and obvious to the player and yet they aren't there, so instead of teaching him good strats I have to spend hours telling him that all Space Marine dudes are actually heavy infantry, instead of regular infantry. I have to explain to him which random weapons do heavy melee instead of power melee even when they look completely identical to another weapon yet does something completely different.
"Why does the Chaos Lord's claws do anti-vehicle damage while the terminator ones don't?" "The Emperor wills it and so it is."
It'd sure be nice to have actual numbers detailing what things do, how fast they move, etc, etc. Gonna have to force him to download Kolaris' advanced tool tips. What bugs me is that this invisibility was a conscious, intentional decision by Relic, which fills me with rage. Some e-sport.
In other news, super units ruining the hell out of team games and FFAs. The new shit in FFA Calderis Refinery is apparently 3 Manticores who can snipe at will any of the VP power supplies while a SM ally buys a Land Raider, which he parks directly in front of 2 VPs close enough to guard his allies' Manticores. Good stuff.
In this particular game I managed to snipe their power supplies, 2 Manticores and the Land Raiders with the overwhelming might of the Swarmlord, thankfully their armies were completely out of positions and their micro was nothing to write home about, otherwise I'd have been really screwed. We still lost, but I feel I got the last insult in properly.
Shit, I remember when TG first came out, and I couldnt figure out how the hell to kill it, and it was off to DoW2 Info to figure it out.
The monster units are generally a mish mash of SHI & Vehicle, and it IS annoying trying to figure out what will work on each one.
Super Units are kinda interesting, in that they are a good way to upgrade your army as your previous units die. Had a 3v3 earlier where we got the enemy team down to 1 VP to our 200, but they had slowly upgraded all their units to Swarmlords, Carnifexes, Baneblades, and a Land Raider. They ended up winning.
EDIT: I really wish Relic would upgrade the AI too, so that noobs could practice a bit. The AI used to be good, then after Chaos Rising, I guess they scrapped the old system to make a new one that was easier to implement the new units into, but which is very brain dead.
MWO: Adamski
They're just something to lean on when lose your army. If your race has an overpowered one, you will win. IF you keep your army out and bring out a weaker one you can have it work pretty well (Chaos' TGUO), and if you're orks you'll just lose if you bring out the wagon at all.
I remember watching a replay where a TM who lost everything but his tech-marine and a scout squad rushed out a land raider took on three armies simultaneously and won the game for his team. All he had was a land-raider and his TM repairing next to it (which make each other pretty much invincible). I don't even think he popped his global (which is percentage based so it does stupid healing per second for the land raider).
The opposing team was a relatively well known group of high leader-board players and they just got shat on by the Landraider. It was sad.
You're completely right about DoW though Riddox. Completely fucking impenetrable game without going and studying the damn thing. You can make assumptions if you know the board game pretty well and you'll be rewarded some times (banshee power swords are good against heavy infantry, pretty standard right?), but some things like Catachan melee, burnas being power weapons, stormboyz having power weapons have no real precedent. Some things are just different for no reason fathomable. I only saw last week that the Warlock's wargear bubble drains energy whilst everyone else's just removes energy regeneration. No tooltip for that, just random. I've always been pissed off that Havoks do like eight times the suppression as everything else at all ranges. No tooltip for that or ability or anything.
Transparency will not hurt your game! It's not like hiding this makes the game simpler or easier to play. It just makes it more confusing. You might be afraid of scaring people away with too much information but you'll do just as worse when they don't understand what is going on and have no practical way of learning.
That sounds weird, it didn't used to do that.
At that point Toxic Miasma gives more armor and damage in a greater area. It's energy cost finally becomes manageable as well. I like bio-plasma, but it just takes too much time to wind up. Unless you get a really good hit it won't do much more than just auto-attacking with the venom cannon. Plus, it requires things like combat expert and Searing to really destroy, which gimps your defenses.
Tyrant is definitely amongst the best Last Stand heroes. He's well rounded and has great team-play mechanics.
I run:
Venom Cannon
Miasma Armor
Warrior Nest
Biofeedback (reactive invulnerability on minion death)
Psychic Scream
Synapse
My favorite and best build so far. P. Scream is a really awesome item that often gets overlooked I think. Scream reduces enemy damage output by about 80% and hits a large area. It claims to reduce armor as well? Completely useless with vemon cannon and I've never seen a difference with allies either. Still, use it to save allies who are getting focused, or get yourself in close to hit the enemy with a Miasma. Spam 5-energy warriors to keep invulnerability up when you're in danger of dying. Spam Miasma to AoE down light troops and keep ranged allies safe from melee. Apply venom cannon sparingly.
Also, me and Woggle beat wave 20 on the new map! Our third guy dropped on wave 19... but we scrambled through it. We quickly snapped into guerrilla warfare with the farseer's conceal and mass teleport and slowly wore the wave down. It doesn't have any sustainability like wave 20 from the original map... kinda disappointing that we duo'd it.
Space Marine still totally OP.
Canis: Yeah, I was really surprised too! But I saw it draining in a replay and didn't question it.
I'm currently running venom cannon, bioplasma, warrior, psychic (which I just started using and is pretty good), combat implants, and syanpse. It's working pretty decently aside from the fact I keep getting grouped with idiot level 1's.
It would be awesome if they would fix bio-plasma so it would at least not wait 3 seconds to even start the animation to fire the plasma some times.
I am rts.650 on SC2 and RyanSchutter on steam.
Man, I want to like Starcraft, but the base micromanagement just puts me right off. I realise it's a core aspect of the game, but I just feel as if it's needlessly obtuse at times for the sake of increasing the work you have to do.
When we were doing our teleport shenanigans, I would randomly be plopped in the middle of the map instead of appearing at the destination with Shep. If I hadn't taken the jump pack, all the predators and termniators would've made mincemeat out of me every time.
The only thing that seemed to be consistent was that I was always on the opposite side of one of the on-map vehicle wrecks from the destination. Apparently their impassible-ness applies to allies along for the group teleport ride, but not the driver. :?
EDIT: Yeah, It's next week, April 6th. The Last Stand Wargear anouncement has that as the release date, and it's part of the patch.
EB I am going to replace next level with levitation field unless it really sucks.
Well I did hear they are working on implementing that one detailed tooltips mod into one of these retribution patches.
I never asked for this!
Unfortunately many had to be ruined by the incompetent booting system. Why does the guy who selects to boot the lagger get kicked? How come me and friend have our game telling us that one other guy is lagging and then either me or him get kicked? So many good games ruined by this shit. I guess I never noticed this before because I haven't played with a teammate extensively until now. Maybe if we could control each other's units when one leaves, but nope. At least the CPU is good at ninja capping.
I would rather see a system where it takes 3 votes in a 2v2 or 4 votes in a 3v3 to kick someone, since I would rather have a laggy match then lose a teammate to the current chickanery.
MWO: Adamski
The whole kicking the person who initiated it is just lame as hell.
I never asked for this!
So it's 7.50 for small model/skin pack?