Basically, my orange Warhounds (5x1) were ready to charge the Thunderers (who were like 8x1-ish). Because I was in his flank, I have to charge that, but maximize the models that can be in combat. The angle is slightly exaggerated in this not-to-scale diagram, but it was feasible for me to wheel once and end up closing the door on his front arc, which I think we ended up doing because the bottom half of the diagram (which I think is the right way to do it) looks stupid.
Yeah, as stated it was like 1am and we'd been drinking for awhile, so we just did a frontal assault so that more hounds/Dorfs would get to eat.
The really wonky thing is that I'm unclear on is what happens if the Dwarfs had a partial second rank that was on the left side. The rules sort of address this in a frontal assault, if your back ranks are longer than the front ones they'll scoot up. Not sure how that works with flank charges (do they electric slide sideways?)
If a unit is fighting to its flank, the models in the incomplete rank are moved into contact with the enemy, there to fight and be fought normally. If the unit is fighting to its rear (or fighting to both flanks) some enemy models might not end up in base contact because of the models in the incomplete rear rank. In this specific situation, the models can fight across the gap, even if not physically in base-to-base contact. In reality, the chargers would not have stopped one step away from the enemy and would have moved in to continue the fight. Treat these models as being in base contact with the enemy.
Thanks mugginns! So then I'd be looking at a frontage of 50mm and he 40mm, meaning we could get 3 Hounds and 2 Dwarfs probably.
Brainfart, and don't have the rulebook on me, but do you get supporting attacks when fighting to the flank?
mr_mich on
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
Incomplete Ranks, pg 49. (I keep getting laughed at for whipping my cute little book out of my bag and madly flipping through it).
If there's a flank charge and a gap between the flank and the rear rank, the read rank scoots over to bust heads. If you rear charge into an incomplete rank, then the rank in front of it 'fight's across the gap' because people tend to stop paying attention to their place in line when warhounds try and bite them in the ass.
So I just finished my first 8th ed battle. It didn't exactly go great but it was somewhat close because when my greenskins broke they ran really, really fast. My main mistake was letting his etherial cav keep me from moving forward. I should have just let him do his worst. Still, If I had rolled slightly better in the first main fight then I might have "unstabled" his vampire and things might have really gone my way and I'm fairly sure that I forgot to take my BSB's attack at the end. Oh well.
So I have a few questions. The battle really started when my night goblins failed to get the 6 they needed and my big'un got the 9 that they did to charge home. The thing that seemed odd is that after my unit hit home they said I should slide it over to maximize the units in combat. Now I had been timing my wheel to maximize the units (the goblins were somewhat in the way) but I don't see anything about any extra moving.
Also there seemed to be some uncertainty if the Vampire Counts could cast spell more than once in a turn. Do they still have a special rule? I don't have any books but the one for my orcs so I can't look it up.
[edit] Oh and some guy that is breaking up Isle of Blood sets like a madman finally saturated the market for mini-rulebooks and I picked one up for a decent price so I don't need one anymore, mr_mich just in case you were still contemplating buying a box.
[edit2] Oh and is there a rule that make an upper limit to the number of herders that can go in a squig herd? I only saw a lower limit but someone that plays O&G said that Army builder puts a limit in there so I thought there might be something I missed or maybe an errata. I can't ever find anything on GW's website.
lowlylowlycook on
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
no, with the herd though I have heard that you want the least amount of herders you can get so that you push them forward as fast as you can and hope your gobos die first so that your squig bomb goes off
Morskitter wrote "Spikes, choppas, tentacles, magic? Can't hold a candle to Sergeant Pimp here."
So I have a few questions. The battle really started when my night goblins failed to get the 6 they needed and my big'un got the 9 that they did to charge home. The thing that seemed odd is that after my unit hit home they said I should slide it over to maximize the units in combat. Now I had been timing my wheel to maximize the units (the goblins were somewhat in the way) but I don't see anything about any extra moving.
Also there seemed to be some uncertainty if the Vampire Counts could cast spell more than once in a turn. Do they still have a special rule? I don't have any books but the one for my orcs so I can't look it up.
I don't think that the entire unit is supposed to slide over to maximize the models in combat. The free wheel is meant to be used so that is takes as many models from each unit into combat. You were doing it correctly.
As for VC casting, their system is kind of broken right now with the new magic rules, but I think they can still cast some of their spells more than once per turn. I'd track down my copy of the VC book and check it now, but I have to get to class.
csheuru on
If we would be great, we must first learn to be good.
I don't remember seeing that in the new VC book or when playing against them. But that doesn't mean a whole lot.
I may have an opportunity to play against VC in a large Storm game this weekend. I'll get to use my Exalted Vermin Lord!
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited February 2012
Fucking sliding.
Holy shit it just won't die.
@lowlylowlycook: You did it right: if the one allowed wheel gets you somewhere that isn't an exact centre-centre charge due to terrain or blocking units or whatever, that's how you end up. You are obliged to maximise within those constraints (ie if you can get a head-on charge, you're not allowed to wheel left so that you only clip one model) but you never slide over once engaged (unless nobody runs away at the end of the round and you elect to perform a combat reform, but that's not in the movement phase).
The people encouraging you to do this are "veterans" who are confusing 8e with a "suggested houserule" from 6e that just won't die for some reason.
As for VC casting, their system is kind of broken right now with the new magic rules, but I think they can still cast some of their spells more than once per turn. I'd track down my copy of the VC book and check it now, but I have to get to class.
The only spell they can cast more than once per phase is Invocation of Nehek, and it's not because their magic is 'broken', it's just the signature spell. None of their spells can be spammed anymore.
As for VC casting, their system is kind of broken right now with the new magic rules, but I think they can still cast some of their spells more than once per turn. I'd track down my copy of the VC book and check it now, but I have to get to class.
The only spell they can cast more than once per phase is Invocation of Nehek, and it's not because their magic is 'broken', it's just the signature spell. None of their spells can be spammed anymore.
Ahh, that's the spell. Couldn't think of the name of it.
I didn't mean 'broken' the way I think you think I meant it. It just doesn't work the way it was intended any more, and the whole army dynamic changed in different ways than most other armies I can think of when the new edition came out.
If we would be great, we must first learn to be good.
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-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
Well yeah, VC magic phases used to be about spamming low casting cost spells. Invocation of Nehek was the big one, cast multiple times even on the same unit. Something else they lost was being able to chrage with Vanhels Danse Macabre.
Now they do a lot of unit buffing with casters synergising with other units like corpse carts. A Necromancer throws out Invocation of Nehek which is a bubble effect now, adding models to all units in the bubble. It can't be recast by the same Necromancer anymore, but its on other casters. But that IoN can hit a Corpse Cart which itself throws out another bubble which gives ASF to all units in range.
The magic phase changed, and changed for the better. It's not like it was, and works in the structure of other 8th edition magic phases, but it's a lot better.
Their old book broke under 8th, but the new one (as of a few months ago) was designed for it and seems to work pretty well. Overall I'm pretty impressed that they have a few really distinct builds.
As someone who just started playing in 8th, I get bewildered when people mention sliding. I get mixed up in the rules sometimes, but luckily I don't have to deal with former rules that were just straight up removed from 8th.
In other news, I hate painting Marauders. I know they're just supposed to be muddy, sweaty plunderers but I feel like they just look dumb no matter how I paint them.
The Marauders are really uninspiring. They could really use a redo.
I didn't see why people hated the models so much until I tried painting them. The proportions are all off, and the anatomy is just bizarre. Like, dudes have triceps bigger than biceps, which are twice as big as their thighs. And then they throw in another couple muscles at weird angles cause lolbuffrapist. The end result is some weird roid-rage model with nothing to cover the skin but some fur and random boots.
Yeah, they came in the Battalion box and I'm not really feeling them.
It's only been a couple of small games, but both times my Marauders have been really underwhelming. At 750 and 1000 points, a group of 20 sword and board Tzeentch marauders was still too squishy for my liking. As I find myself saying a lot with the WoC book...I'd really rather just have more Warriors.
You can get a 40 man horde of marauders with great weapons, mark of tzeentch (6+ ward) and full command for 240 points. Just sayin'. Seems really really nasty.
I know that's a popular and powerful build, but MoK doesn't appeal to me too much. I'm sure I'll experiment with it, and flails, but so far the Marauders have been underwhelming at all possible junctures.
Marauders are a human statline with higher WS and I, right? About 5 points per? I'd never take less than 30, 35. That's an *anvil* ranked infantry unit.
I was pretty excited about shield/light armor/MoT because it gives them a 5+/5++ in CC for 6 points each. I've only got 20 of them that came in the Battalion, and since we've been playing small games (750 and 1000) I figured it'd be enough for now. Is that not a fair shake?
I feel like since the chaos warriors are so tough and have high armor, giving the marauders all great weapons and just tossing them at hydras and stuff is a good idear because you don't care if they die and they can do some damage in a horde.
Bestigors have 1 higher toughness, 1 higher strength, and 1 higher move, heavy armor, and they're 12 points each. Marauders just seem like a super bargain with 2 handers.
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
What are the recommended builds for Ogre Mournfang cavalry? There are so many potential options, I just don't know what would be for the best. Heavy armor and an ironfist gives a 2+ armor, 6+ parry save. A great weapon means they always strike last, but mournfang is hitting at I2 with 4 attacks at s5, then ogre making 3 more at s6.
Are they worth giving a banner to, and what about upgrading 1 to a crusher and giving him a brace of ogre pistols?
A lot of the internet says ironfists. I agree because a 2+ armor save is pretty nice, how much more strength do they neeed? Also dudes run that dragonhide banner on there, but that's expensive.
The standard build is a unit of 4 with heavy armor and ironfists with a musician and standard bearer with the dragonhide banner.
You absolutely want ironfists over great weapons. They already hit extremely hard against non-elite infantry but are too fragile to go up against anything that strength 6 would help with. Even without great weapons they're going last against almost everything, and if they take 3 wounds they lose 7 attacks, so you want them to live as long as possible.
Use them to rip through anything strength 5 or less, but keep them away from strength 6.
I had an idea that instead of giving my warboss (at 3k points) a ward save I could give him the trickster's helm for rerolling wounds and the other trickster's shard to remove ward saves from adjacent models. Then I could stick him in a unit of night goblins with nets to make wounding him harder yet (most of the time).
Is that a good idea or a bad one? I think it would work better if you could buy heavy armor for warbosses because that would add up to a decent armor save as well, but Black Orc warbosses are just too pricey.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
I have a battlescribe question. Is there a general trick to adding a magical standard to unit that can have one? With the O&G roster I have, I can check a box to add a magical standard but I can't see where to chose which one.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
It seems that the magical standard isn't in bold and I had tried to click on it earlier. I loaded up the Tomb Kings catalog and those seem to work. But thanks, I hadn't really caught on to that bit in the design. When I get back home I'll have to look into polishing this O&G catalog a bit.
lowlylowlycook on
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
Lesson of the day: stop letting my ogres get flanked charged.
On the other hand, having one unit of gnoblars stop TWO big blocks of chaos warriors dead in their tracks for a turn by plugging up a bottleneck, killing three warriors with traps when they finally charged, a fourth one with a thrown brick during their stand and shoot action, and having the absolute temerity to survive the combat and force the two blocks of warriors to win via combat resolution instead of being slaughtered outright absolutely made my night.
Also, the fact that having my firebelly miscast on turn 1 and get sucked into the warp, leaving me with nothing better to do with my power dice the rest of the game except dispel pretty much everything the chaos wizards cast was absolutely hilarious.
Posts
It was a Warhound against a Thunderer, which IIRC is a 25mm base against a 20mm base, so it was 1-on-1.
Basically, my orange Warhounds (5x1) were ready to charge the Thunderers (who were like 8x1-ish). Because I was in his flank, I have to charge that, but maximize the models that can be in combat. The angle is slightly exaggerated in this not-to-scale diagram, but it was feasible for me to wheel once and end up closing the door on his front arc, which I think we ended up doing because the bottom half of the diagram (which I think is the right way to do it) looks stupid.
The really wonky thing is that I'm unclear on is what happens if the Dwarfs had a partial second rank that was on the left side. The rules sort of address this in a frontal assault, if your back ranks are longer than the front ones they'll scoot up. Not sure how that works with flank charges (do they electric slide sideways?)
Brainfart, and don't have the rulebook on me, but do you get supporting attacks when fighting to the flank?
If there's a flank charge and a gap between the flank and the rear rank, the read rank scoots over to bust heads. If you rear charge into an incomplete rank, then the rank in front of it 'fight's across the gap' because people tend to stop paying attention to their place in line when warhounds try and bite them in the ass.
So I have a few questions. The battle really started when my night goblins failed to get the 6 they needed and my big'un got the 9 that they did to charge home. The thing that seemed odd is that after my unit hit home they said I should slide it over to maximize the units in combat. Now I had been timing my wheel to maximize the units (the goblins were somewhat in the way) but I don't see anything about any extra moving.
Also there seemed to be some uncertainty if the Vampire Counts could cast spell more than once in a turn. Do they still have a special rule? I don't have any books but the one for my orcs so I can't look it up.
[edit] Oh and some guy that is breaking up Isle of Blood sets like a madman finally saturated the market for mini-rulebooks and I picked one up for a decent price so I don't need one anymore, mr_mich just in case you were still contemplating buying a box.
[edit2] Oh and is there a rule that make an upper limit to the number of herders that can go in a squig herd? I only saw a lower limit but someone that plays O&G said that Army builder puts a limit in there so I thought there might be something I missed or maybe an errata. I can't ever find anything on GW's website.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
I don't think that the entire unit is supposed to slide over to maximize the models in combat. The free wheel is meant to be used so that is takes as many models from each unit into combat. You were doing it correctly.
As for VC casting, their system is kind of broken right now with the new magic rules, but I think they can still cast some of their spells more than once per turn. I'd track down my copy of the VC book and check it now, but I have to get to class.
I may have an opportunity to play against VC in a large Storm game this weekend. I'll get to use my Exalted Vermin Lord!
Holy shit it just won't die.
@lowlylowlycook: You did it right: if the one allowed wheel gets you somewhere that isn't an exact centre-centre charge due to terrain or blocking units or whatever, that's how you end up. You are obliged to maximise within those constraints (ie if you can get a head-on charge, you're not allowed to wheel left so that you only clip one model) but you never slide over once engaged (unless nobody runs away at the end of the round and you elect to perform a combat reform, but that's not in the movement phase).
The people encouraging you to do this are "veterans" who are confusing 8e with a "suggested houserule" from 6e that just won't die for some reason.
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The only spell they can cast more than once per phase is Invocation of Nehek, and it's not because their magic is 'broken', it's just the signature spell. None of their spells can be spammed anymore.
Ahh, that's the spell. Couldn't think of the name of it.
I didn't mean 'broken' the way I think you think I meant it. It just doesn't work the way it was intended any more, and the whole army dynamic changed in different ways than most other armies I can think of when the new edition came out.
Now they do a lot of unit buffing with casters synergising with other units like corpse carts. A Necromancer throws out Invocation of Nehek which is a bubble effect now, adding models to all units in the bubble. It can't be recast by the same Necromancer anymore, but its on other casters. But that IoN can hit a Corpse Cart which itself throws out another bubble which gives ASF to all units in range.
The magic phase changed, and changed for the better. It's not like it was, and works in the structure of other 8th edition magic phases, but it's a lot better.
In other news, I hate painting Marauders. I know they're just supposed to be muddy, sweaty plunderers but I feel like they just look dumb no matter how I paint them.
The Marauders are really uninspiring. They could really use a redo.
I didn't see why people hated the models so much until I tried painting them. The proportions are all off, and the anatomy is just bizarre. Like, dudes have triceps bigger than biceps, which are twice as big as their thighs. And then they throw in another couple muscles at weird angles cause lolbuffrapist. The end result is some weird roid-rage model with nothing to cover the skin but some fur and random boots.
Gunna use beastmen for my Marauders, when I get around to getting some
It's only been a couple of small games, but both times my Marauders have been really underwhelming. At 750 and 1000 points, a group of 20 sword and board Tzeentch marauders was still too squishy for my liking. As I find myself saying a lot with the WoC book...I'd really rather just have more Warriors.
Or the horde option.
I was pretty excited about shield/light armor/MoT because it gives them a 5+/5++ in CC for 6 points each. I've only got 20 of them that came in the Battalion, and since we've been playing small games (750 and 1000) I figured it'd be enough for now. Is that not a fair shake?
Bestigors have 1 higher toughness, 1 higher strength, and 1 higher move, heavy armor, and they're 12 points each. Marauders just seem like a super bargain with 2 handers.
Are they worth giving a banner to, and what about upgrading 1 to a crusher and giving him a brace of ogre pistols?
You absolutely want ironfists over great weapons. They already hit extremely hard against non-elite infantry but are too fragile to go up against anything that strength 6 would help with. Even without great weapons they're going last against almost everything, and if they take 3 wounds they lose 7 attacks, so you want them to live as long as possible.
Use them to rip through anything strength 5 or less, but keep them away from strength 6.
Is that a good idea or a bad one? I think it would work better if you could buy heavy armor for warbosses because that would add up to a decent armor save as well, but Black Orc warbosses are just too pricey.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
On the other hand, having one unit of gnoblars stop TWO big blocks of chaos warriors dead in their tracks for a turn by plugging up a bottleneck, killing three warriors with traps when they finally charged, a fourth one with a thrown brick during their stand and shoot action, and having the absolute temerity to survive the combat and force the two blocks of warriors to win via combat resolution instead of being slaughtered outright absolutely made my night.
Also, the fact that having my firebelly miscast on turn 1 and get sucked into the warp, leaving me with nothing better to do with my power dice the rest of the game except dispel pretty much everything the chaos wizards cast was absolutely hilarious.