The fuck, guys. Ireland has universal coverage. 100% free healthcare for everyone!
It's not like we're talking about that untrue scotsman system.
The problem with what you're saying is you're claiming that all universal coverage is bad because Ireland's was bad when you were there.
So fucking typical of conversations I have around here. Kindly point me to the part where I said anything of the sort! All I'm claiming is that universal coverage isn't a magical fucking panacea that instantly solves all healthcare problems.
Sometimes I feel like I could just go "hey guys I have an opinion" and let people fill in the goddamned blanks with whatever they think it is. It's what happens half the time anyway.
you reap what you fucking sow man.
You have totally earned this kind of response around here.
I disagree and I think I personally was pretty unfair to spool in this instance and rolled out my Jump to Conclusions mat without giving him a chance.
I, personally, know what it's like to have [chat] leap down my throat when they're not even sure what my opinion is and they're making assumptions based on other opinions I've expressed.
It doesn't feel good when people do it to me, and I don't like doing it to other people.
i maintain that you think my great grandmother deserved what she got at auschwitz for, and i quote, 'that terrible squawk she called a laugh'
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I never know how to argue with my dad about universal health care because I don't know specific stuff and he mentions people having to wait and I just fumble around being idealistic
... just thought I'd share. one day I'll learn more I guess.
Arguing against universal health care to a crowd that has multiple members who lives have been saved by universal health care strikes me as a little rude
"This thing that saved your life is terrible."
Oh I'm sorry, would you prefer if I had died?
conversely, the retard rodeo of a system that nearly killed me and literally bankrupted one of my friends is the best ever
USA USA
okay jacob
here i go
*dusts off soapbox*
*steps up*
this kind of thing irks me. really grinds my gears. no one has said anything of the sort!!
horseshit. it gets said all the fucking time. you've got people who literally lie to our faces about how the rest of the world is a hellhole, writing in learned magazines about how europe or canada or japan or whateveris like logan's run, with people living like starving animals on the run from the death panels, when I can sit here and IM with any one of dozens of my friends and acquaintances and see that this is blatantly not the case.
and when someone points out what a morass of failure our system is? How people go bankrupt or are forced to let simple complaints fester until they get a trip to the emergency room? is the answer "sorry we've failed those people, we're working on it?"
nope
it's "those parasites aren't real americans anyway." "this isn't government's place to decide." "you're not taking away my freedom."
did I make that shit up? nope! I hear it every goddamn day. I get it in the subliterate, racist emails my granddad forwards me.
you don't like that I don't like that? then stop voting for those people. stop making excuses for their embarrassingly abject failures.
or knit a big ol' cryin' towel and let loose into it
The fuck, guys. Ireland has universal coverage. 100% free healthcare for everyone!
It's not like we're talking about that untrue scotsman system.
The problem with what you're saying is you're claiming that all universal coverage is bad because Ireland's was bad when you were there.
So fucking typical of conversations I have around here. Kindly point me to the part where I said anything of the sort! All I'm claiming is that universal coverage isn't a magical fucking panacea that instantly solves all healthcare problems.
Sometimes I feel like I could just go "hey guys I have an opinion" and let people fill in the goddamned blanks with whatever they think it is. It's what happens half the time anyway.
you reap what you fucking sow man.
You have totally earned this kind of response around here.
I disagree and I think I personally was pretty unfair to spool in this instance and rolled out my Jump to Conclusions mat without giving him a chance.
I, personally, know what it's like to have [chat] leap down my throat when they're not even sure what my opinion is and they're making assumptions based on other opinions I've expressed.
It doesn't feel good when people do it to me, and I don't like doing it to other people.
i maintain that you think my great grandmother deserved what she got at auschwitz for, and i quote, 'that terrible squawk she called a laugh'
look let's just poll popular opinion
folks imagine this kind of sound coming out of a person:
The fuck, guys. Ireland has universal coverage. 100% free healthcare for everyone!
It's not like we're talking about that untrue scotsman system.
The problem with what you're saying is you're claiming that all universal coverage is bad because Ireland's was bad when you were there.
So fucking typical of conversations I have around here. Kindly point me to the part where I said anything of the sort! All I'm claiming is that universal coverage isn't a magical fucking panacea that instantly solves all healthcare problems.
Sometimes I feel like I could just go "hey guys I have an opinion" and let people fill in the goddamned blanks with whatever they think it is. It's what happens half the time anyway.
you reap what you fucking sow man.
You have totally earned this kind of response around here.
I disagree and I think I personally was pretty unfair to spool in this instance and rolled out my Jump to Conclusions mat without giving him a chance.
I, personally, know what it's like to have [chat] leap down my throat when they're not even sure what my opinion is and they're making assumptions based on other opinions I've expressed.
It doesn't feel good when people do it to me, and I don't like doing it to other people.
eh, even if you jumped to the conclusion as it were in this case you jumped to the right one (based on what spool has gone on about in the past).
Also, spool has proven (at least to me) that he is absolutely not worth having his posts read in a positive light. I will not give that guy the benefit of the doubt any more.
these people won't stop hassling me for being an 'asshole' who 'doesn't know how to have fun' so i should 'just go kill myself'
fucking
university
sux
i like canada in general and when i went to the hockey hall of fame i made out with a cute girl who had the maple leaf logo painted real cute on her cheek
but from your stories about your classmates i'm forced to conclude that canada is terrible and full of terrible jerkoffs
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I never know how to argue with my dad about universal health care because I don't know specific stuff and he mentions people having to wait and I just fumble around being idealistic
... just thought I'd share. one day I'll learn more I guess.
Here's the thing, the most disingenuous part of this "debate".
The people who have to "wait" under the Canadian system, for example like myself, under the US system would have no healthcare at all.
It's a comparison between waiting for care (which does happen, let me tell you) and not getting care at all.
Arguing against universal health care to a crowd that has multiple members who lives have been saved by universal health care strikes me as a little rude
"This thing that saved your life is terrible."
Oh I'm sorry, would you prefer if I had died?
conversely, the retard rodeo of a system that nearly killed me and literally bankrupted one of my friends is the best ever
USA USA
okay jacob
here i go
*dusts off soapbox*
*steps up*
this kind of thing irks me. really grinds my gears. no one has said anything of the sort!!
horseshit. it gets said all the fucking time. you've got people who literally lie to our faces about how the rest of the world is a hellhole, writing in learned magazines about how europe or canada or japan or whateveris like logan's run, with people living like starving animals on the run from the death panels, when I can sit here and IM with any one of dozens of my friends and acquaintances and see that this is blatantly not the case.
and when someone points out what a morass of failure our system is? How people go bankrupt or are forced to let simple complaints fester until they get a trip to the emergency room? is the answer "sorry we've failed those people, we're working on it?"
nope
it's "those parasites aren't real americans anyway." "this isn't government's place to decide." "you're not taking away my freedom."
did I make that shit up? nope! I hear it every goddamn day. I get it in the subliterate, racist emails my granddad forwards me.
you don't like that I don't like that? then stop voting for those people. stop making excuses for their embarrassingly abject failures.
or knit a big ol' cryin' towel and let loose into it
I don't really care which
jacob
excuse me
no one here has said anything of the sort
spool and myself are the targets of your posts on here (through indirect fire, nonetheless)
I did not really try to jump down spool's throat I just wanted to know what he thought because it didn't make sense. In the past he's been against UHC almost universally (I think modern man is the only really big GOP guy besides spool that I can name that would be against it). I was just asking for clarification because now it seemed he wasn't really against UHC but against the way the Irish did it.
But then that turned into the Irish did it bad so no UHC can ever work, coupled with his anecdote (which I still don't know what happened and why it failed him because that doesn't make much sense other than he wasn't national born or something), and then he claimed that wasn't what he said.
I mean it's no ketchup on your spaghetti...
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
The fuck, guys. Ireland has universal coverage. 100% free healthcare for everyone!
It's not like we're talking about that untrue scotsman system.
The problem with what you're saying is you're claiming that all universal coverage is bad because Ireland's was bad when you were there.
So fucking typical of conversations I have around here. Kindly point me to the part where I said anything of the sort! All I'm claiming is that universal coverage isn't a magical fucking panacea that instantly solves all healthcare problems.
Sometimes I feel like I could just go "hey guys I have an opinion" and let people fill in the goddamned blanks with whatever they think it is. It's what happens half the time anyway.
you reap what you fucking sow man.
You have totally earned this kind of response around here.
I disagree and I think I personally was pretty unfair to spool in this instance and rolled out my Jump to Conclusions mat without giving him a chance.
I, personally, know what it's like to have [chat] leap down my throat when they're not even sure what my opinion is and they're making assumptions based on other opinions I've expressed.
It doesn't feel good when people do it to me, and I don't like doing it to other people.
eh, even if you jumped to the conclusion as it were in this case you jumped to the right one (based on what spool has gone on about in the past).
Also, spool has proven (at least to me) that he is absolutely not worth having his posts read in a positive light. I will not give that guy the benefit of the doubt any more.
You don't give me the benefit of the doubt either, and I basically return the favor.
So I'm pretty sure who I'd rather be cool with, slick.
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
last time spool said something really offensive i remember him going like 'i'm having a bad day, that was wrong and i was speaking defensively and it's not what i really believe'
sure he is kind of snide and condescending about why he doesn't even lower to our level because he knows that libruls are incapable of civil debate with a conservative
but gooey does that too and i literally wanna have sex with that guy
i personally think spool is ok and skippy rock climbed with him and likes him
face it: every republican who comes into chat y'all are gonna hate at least a little. those flaws the person possesses will be magnified because of their politics
i'm just asking you to temper some of that hate with some TLC
Organichu on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Bowen, I honestly don't know what Spool's position is as he seemed pretty clearly against UHC in the past but is saying otherwise now. I've been hoping for clarification, but I have a feeling it's not coming.
I never know how to argue with my dad about universal health care because I don't know specific stuff and he mentions people having to wait and I just fumble around being idealistic
... just thought I'd share. one day I'll learn more I guess.
Here's the thing, the most disingenuous part of this "debate".
The people who have to "wait" under the Canadian system, for example like myself, under the US system would have no healthcare at all.
It's a comparison between waiting for care (which does happen, let me tell you) and not getting care at all.
that's usually where I go
I'm like "so now people with and without money have to wait instead of people without money dying?"
and then we go in circles.
and I said it was unchristian of him which was awesome and then he said 'forced charity isn't christian" and I remembered why I don't talk to him about politics
sorry for rambling, and also he's not a bad guy just misguided on these subjects (imo obviously). just want to say that.
JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
it's pretty simple, really
the answer to "holy shit most people I know are terrified of the day they break a leg because they might miss a day of work and get fired and saddled with thousands of dollars of medical bills"
is not "I hear in those other countries you have to wait in a line"
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
the answer to "holy shit most people I know are terrified of the day they break a leg because they might miss a day of work and get fired and saddled with thousands of dollars of medical bills"
is not "I hear in those other countries you have to wait in a line"
I think the US is the only first world nation that has medically-related bankruptcies. Like, they do not happen in any other developed nation. I think this is significant.
I never know how to argue with my dad about universal health care because I don't know specific stuff and he mentions people having to wait and I just fumble around being idealistic
... just thought I'd share. one day I'll learn more I guess.
Here's the thing, the most disingenuous part of this "debate".
The people who have to "wait" under the Canadian system, for example like myself, under the US system would have no healthcare at all.
It's a comparison between waiting for care (which does happen, let me tell you) and not getting care at all.
that isn't necessarily true
if you lived in pennsylvania and you were legit disabled how you are you would eventually get disability (though i admit it can be a bitch to get- it sounds a lot like the process you've described)
but if you couldn't work, in my state anyway, you'd get government assistance and you'd get medicaid
it's basically universal healthcare for the very poor
the reason that dozens of millions of americans have no insurance is because they either live in the very shittiest states (in terms of social services) or they make just enough money to not qualify for government aid
if you lived where i live you'd have comprehensive medical care that would cost you nothing (except like $1 per prescription)
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I never know how to argue with my dad about universal health care because I don't know specific stuff and he mentions people having to wait and I just fumble around being idealistic
... just thought I'd share. one day I'll learn more I guess.
1) Anti-UHC folk love to cherry pick wait times. They'll mention that it takes several months to get (elective) knee surgery in Ontario, but they won't mention that the average wait time for a non-emergency heart bypass is 8 days (last I checked).
2) Anti-UHC folk love to cherry pick wait times. Did I mention that already? Hey, I'll mention it again. They love Ontario, because that's the most impacted province of one of the worlds most bureaucratic UHC systems. So they find one of the worst countries for wait times, one of the worst places inside that country, and one of the worst examples from that place.
3) There's no way to make an apples to apples comparison, because the lack of oversight in the US means that we have no good data on wait times. Zero. None. The average wait time for a non-emergency heart bypass might be 8 days. It might be 800. There is no way of knowing.
Anecdote: I waited nearly three years (33 months) for sleep apnea surgery, due to a combination of losing my health insurance and pre-existing condition waiting periods. That wait time will not show up on any study or report ever. And there are other people like me.
4) Even if we had better data collection, it still wouldn't be possible to make an apples-to-apples comparison, as long as large groups of people lack health insurance. It sucks to have to wait 200 days for knee surgery, but that's better than not getting it at all. An "average wait time" that only takes into account a privileged class is a bullshit statistic.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
Bowen, I honestly don't know what Spool's position is as he seemed pretty clearly against UHC in the past but is saying otherwise now. I've been hoping for clarification, but I have a feeling it's not coming.
That's all I'm looking for. It makes addressing his concerns easy if he tells me why he doesn't want it.
Working together is wayyyy better than partisanship. Unless of course to work together someone's going to throw out something like "I don't want my tax money to be used for abortions by anyone, ever!"
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
i know that it is really difficult to control the urge to leap to the defense of an idea you hold dear
but even if you're being civil, the last few pages of chat are an example of the sheer weight of opinion pushing even reasonable or semi-reasonable conservatives away from expressing their views in this forum
personally i like to see the other side's views, and moderate views, because it brings up the problems and alternatives that are often glossed over, forgotten or ignored when everyone mostly agrees with each other already
i think that's important and it satisfies my personal curiosity when i wonder how people could possibly disagree with an ideal or position that i think is very compelling, even if it turns out the opposing view is deplorable or crazy or whatever. because it's important to hear it anyways.
all this to say that if any of our conservative-thinking posters ever feel the urge to flip a table and express their ideological disagreements in long form, or engage in point-by-point reasoned discussion on an issue, and have to choke it back for fear of dogpiling - when impassioned liberal posts are applauded and encouraged in our forum, by contrast - they can feel free to PM me, because I am always curious and it pretty much takes direct personal attacks or really monstrous perspectives to drive me past the point of reasonable and civil discussion
the answer to "holy shit most people I know are terrified of the day they break a leg because they might miss a day of work and get fired and saddled with thousands of dollars of medical bills"
is not "I hear in those other countries you have to wait in a line"
I think the US is the only first world nation that has medically-related bankruptcies. Like, they do not happen in any other developed nation. I think this is significant.
It is the bulk of bankruptcies too. Somewhere in the ballpark of like 80%. If private school loans could be discharged under ch13 (and only ch13) I'd wager it'd drop down to like 60%, 20% for school loans, and 20% for credit card / other debt.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
George Clooney was arrested this morning for demonstrating.
i literally stared at this for half a second and wondered what he could have been demonstrating
the cornballer?
Protested against Sudan or something?
looking it up, that appears to be it, yeah.
I love George Clooney. Someone (it might have been Thanatos?) posted this fantastic interview with him where he went to the guy's house and helped him cook dinner and hung out with his kids. He said something like "the secret to being famous is not to whine about how hard you have it."
George Clooney was arrested this morning for demonstrating.
i literally stared at this for half a second and wondered what he could have been demonstrating
the cornballer?
Protested against Sudan or something?
looking it up, that appears to be it, yeah.
I love George Clooney. Someone (it might have been Thanatos?) posted this fantastic interview with him where he went to the guy's house and helped him cook dinner and hung out with his kids. He said something like "the secret to being famous is not to whine about how hard you have it."
i might be totally misattributing this, but i THINK it was george clooney- maybe it was another celebrity
but he said that he's often asked whether he's gay (and his sexuality has been speculated about in the press), and he said he refuses to respond because he doesn't want to feel like he's eager to identify as not-gay. he said it'd be a mark of serious disrespect to his gay friends and loved ones if he felt like he had to hurriedly rush away from the rumors.
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
George Clooney was arrested this morning for demonstrating.
i literally stared at this for half a second and wondered what he could have been demonstrating
the cornballer?
Protested against Sudan or something?
looking it up, that appears to be it, yeah.
I love George Clooney. Someone (it might have been Thanatos?) posted this fantastic interview with him where he went to the guy's house and helped him cook dinner and hung out with his kids. He said something like "the secret to being famous is not to whine about how hard you have it."
George Clooney was arrested this morning for demonstrating.
i literally stared at this for half a second and wondered what he could have been demonstrating
the cornballer?
Protested against Sudan or something?
looking it up, that appears to be it, yeah.
I love George Clooney. Someone (it might have been Thanatos?) posted this fantastic interview with him where he went to the guy's house and helped him cook dinner and hung out with his kids. He said something like "the secret to being famous is not to whine about how hard you have it."
i might be totally misattributing this, but i THINK it was george clooney- maybe it was another celebrity
but he said that he's often asked whether he's gay (and his sexuality has been speculated about in the press), and he said he refuses to respond because he doesn't want to feel like he's eager to identify as not-gay. he said it'd be a mark of serious disrespect to his gay friends and loved ones if he felt like he had to hurriedly rush away from the rumors.
Yeah, i think that was Clooney. The guy is very quoteable!
Hilariously enough one of the reasons wait-times are so bad in Ontario is due to doctor shortages.
Because the mercenary health-care system in the US combined with years of Conservative government in Canada means doctors make not even close to the same money here as they do in the US.
As the most "Americanized" province and the dumping ground for every retarded Conservative policy, Ontario has this brain-drain worse than anywhere else in the country.
So basically, Ontario's health-care system is worse than other parts of Canada in part at least because of the American health-care system being so fucking ruthless.
but if you couldn't work, in my state anyway, you'd get government assistance and you'd get medicaid
it's basically universal healthcare for the very poor
the reason that dozens of millions of americans have no insurance is because they either live in the very shittiest states (in terms of social services) or they make just enough money to not qualify for government aid
if you lived where i live you'd have comprehensive medical care that would cost you nothing (except like $1 per prescription)
Just to build upon this...
The current guidelines for Medicaid require that it be offered to any family with children.
If you do not have children, and you are not disabled or elderly, whether you qualify for Medicaid depends entirely on your state's government.
This will change in 2014. Thanks, Obama! No, really, I mean that. Thanks, Obama! All I really expected out of healthcare reform was an expansion of the eligibility guidelines of current programs, and we got exactly that. In 2014, individuals without children will qualify if they're under 133% of the poverty line ($14500/yr).
Hopefully, in a few years, we'll get another similar expansion.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Posts
i maintain that you think my great grandmother deserved what she got at auschwitz for, and i quote, 'that terrible squawk she called a laugh'
... just thought I'd share. one day I'll learn more I guess.
horseshit. it gets said all the fucking time. you've got people who literally lie to our faces about how the rest of the world is a hellhole, writing in learned magazines about how europe or canada or japan or whateveris like logan's run, with people living like starving animals on the run from the death panels, when I can sit here and IM with any one of dozens of my friends and acquaintances and see that this is blatantly not the case.
and when someone points out what a morass of failure our system is? How people go bankrupt or are forced to let simple complaints fester until they get a trip to the emergency room? is the answer "sorry we've failed those people, we're working on it?"
nope
it's "those parasites aren't real americans anyway." "this isn't government's place to decide." "you're not taking away my freedom."
did I make that shit up? nope! I hear it every goddamn day. I get it in the subliterate, racist emails my granddad forwards me.
you don't like that I don't like that? then stop voting for those people. stop making excuses for their embarrassingly abject failures.
or knit a big ol' cryin' towel and let loose into it
I don't really care which
look let's just poll popular opinion
folks imagine this kind of sound coming out of a person:
I mean COME ON
these people won't stop hassling me for being an 'asshole' who 'doesn't know how to have fun' so i should 'just go kill myself'
fucking
university
sux
eh, even if you jumped to the conclusion as it were in this case you jumped to the right one (based on what spool has gone on about in the past).
Also, spool has proven (at least to me) that he is absolutely not worth having his posts read in a positive light. I will not give that guy the benefit of the doubt any more.
i like canada in general and when i went to the hockey hall of fame i made out with a cute girl who had the maple leaf logo painted real cute on her cheek
but from your stories about your classmates i'm forced to conclude that canada is terrible and full of terrible jerkoffs
watttttt
Jesus, that is a terrible way for those people to behave!
Here's the thing, the most disingenuous part of this "debate".
The people who have to "wait" under the Canadian system, for example like myself, under the US system would have no healthcare at all.
It's a comparison between waiting for care (which does happen, let me tell you) and not getting care at all.
jacob
excuse me
no one here has said anything of the sort
spool and myself are the targets of your posts on here (through indirect fire, nonetheless)
But then that turned into the Irish did it bad so no UHC can ever work, coupled with his anecdote (which I still don't know what happened and why it failed him because that doesn't make much sense other than he wasn't national born or something), and then he claimed that wasn't what he said.
I mean it's no ketchup on your spaghetti...
You don't give me the benefit of the doubt either, and I basically return the favor.
So I'm pretty sure who I'd rather be cool with, slick.
These people are awful, did you tell them to leave you alone?
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
last time spool said something really offensive i remember him going like 'i'm having a bad day, that was wrong and i was speaking defensively and it's not what i really believe'
sure he is kind of snide and condescending about why he doesn't even lower to our level because he knows that libruls are incapable of civil debate with a conservative
but gooey does that too and i literally wanna have sex with that guy
i personally think spool is ok and skippy rock climbed with him and likes him
face it: every republican who comes into chat y'all are gonna hate at least a little. those flaws the person possesses will be magnified because of their politics
i'm just asking you to temper some of that hate with some TLC
that's usually where I go
I'm like "so now people with and without money have to wait instead of people without money dying?"
and then we go in circles.
and I said it was unchristian of him which was awesome and then he said 'forced charity isn't christian" and I remembered why I don't talk to him about politics
sorry for rambling, and also he's not a bad guy just misguided on these subjects (imo obviously). just want to say that.
the answer to "holy shit most people I know are terrified of the day they break a leg because they might miss a day of work and get fired and saddled with thousands of dollars of medical bills"
is not "I hear in those other countries you have to wait in a line"
I think the US is the only first world nation that has medically-related bankruptcies. Like, they do not happen in any other developed nation. I think this is significant.
Pretty cocky
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
8->
have a good weekendddddddddd
that isn't necessarily true
if you lived in pennsylvania and you were legit disabled how you are you would eventually get disability (though i admit it can be a bitch to get- it sounds a lot like the process you've described)
but if you couldn't work, in my state anyway, you'd get government assistance and you'd get medicaid
it's basically universal healthcare for the very poor
the reason that dozens of millions of americans have no insurance is because they either live in the very shittiest states (in terms of social services) or they make just enough money to not qualify for government aid
if you lived where i live you'd have comprehensive medical care that would cost you nothing (except like $1 per prescription)
i literally stared at this for half a second and wondered what he could have been demonstrating
the cornballer?
I bet Pony knows the details on this.
Damn! We're in a tight spot!
Pretty sure tazers are illegal for non-law enforcement.
EDIT: As is pepper spray. :P
1) Anti-UHC folk love to cherry pick wait times. They'll mention that it takes several months to get (elective) knee surgery in Ontario, but they won't mention that the average wait time for a non-emergency heart bypass is 8 days (last I checked).
2) Anti-UHC folk love to cherry pick wait times. Did I mention that already? Hey, I'll mention it again. They love Ontario, because that's the most impacted province of one of the worlds most bureaucratic UHC systems. So they find one of the worst countries for wait times, one of the worst places inside that country, and one of the worst examples from that place.
3) There's no way to make an apples to apples comparison, because the lack of oversight in the US means that we have no good data on wait times. Zero. None. The average wait time for a non-emergency heart bypass might be 8 days. It might be 800. There is no way of knowing.
Anecdote: I waited nearly three years (33 months) for sleep apnea surgery, due to a combination of losing my health insurance and pre-existing condition waiting periods. That wait time will not show up on any study or report ever. And there are other people like me.
4) Even if we had better data collection, it still wouldn't be possible to make an apples-to-apples comparison, as long as large groups of people lack health insurance. It sucks to have to wait 200 days for knee surgery, but that's better than not getting it at all. An "average wait time" that only takes into account a privileged class is a bullshit statistic.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Protested against Sudan or something?
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That's all I'm looking for. It makes addressing his concerns easy if he tells me why he doesn't want it.
Working together is wayyyy better than partisanship. Unless of course to work together someone's going to throw out something like "I don't want my tax money to be used for abortions by anyone, ever!"
but even if you're being civil, the last few pages of chat are an example of the sheer weight of opinion pushing even reasonable or semi-reasonable conservatives away from expressing their views in this forum
personally i like to see the other side's views, and moderate views, because it brings up the problems and alternatives that are often glossed over, forgotten or ignored when everyone mostly agrees with each other already
i think that's important and it satisfies my personal curiosity when i wonder how people could possibly disagree with an ideal or position that i think is very compelling, even if it turns out the opposing view is deplorable or crazy or whatever. because it's important to hear it anyways.
all this to say that if any of our conservative-thinking posters ever feel the urge to flip a table and express their ideological disagreements in long form, or engage in point-by-point reasoned discussion on an issue, and have to choke it back for fear of dogpiling - when impassioned liberal posts are applauded and encouraged in our forum, by contrast - they can feel free to PM me, because I am always curious and it pretty much takes direct personal attacks or really monstrous perspectives to drive me past the point of reasonable and civil discussion
just throwing that out there
It is the bulk of bankruptcies too. Somewhere in the ballpark of like 80%. If private school loans could be discharged under ch13 (and only ch13) I'd wager it'd drop down to like 60%, 20% for school loans, and 20% for credit card / other debt.
looking it up, that appears to be it, yeah.
I love George Clooney. Someone (it might have been Thanatos?) posted this fantastic interview with him where he went to the guy's house and helped him cook dinner and hung out with his kids. He said something like "the secret to being famous is not to whine about how hard you have it."
i might be totally misattributing this, but i THINK it was george clooney- maybe it was another celebrity
but he said that he's often asked whether he's gay (and his sexuality has been speculated about in the press), and he said he refuses to respond because he doesn't want to feel like he's eager to identify as not-gay. he said it'd be a mark of serious disrespect to his gay friends and loved ones if he felt like he had to hurriedly rush away from the rumors.
That's a pretty good quote.
Yeah, i think that was Clooney. The guy is very quoteable!
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Because the mercenary health-care system in the US combined with years of Conservative government in Canada means doctors make not even close to the same money here as they do in the US.
As the most "Americanized" province and the dumping ground for every retarded Conservative policy, Ontario has this brain-drain worse than anywhere else in the country.
So basically, Ontario's health-care system is worse than other parts of Canada in part at least because of the American health-care system being so fucking ruthless.
Just to build upon this...
The current guidelines for Medicaid require that it be offered to any family with children.
If you do not have children, and you are not disabled or elderly, whether you qualify for Medicaid depends entirely on your state's government.
This will change in 2014. Thanks, Obama! No, really, I mean that. Thanks, Obama! All I really expected out of healthcare reform was an expansion of the eligibility guidelines of current programs, and we got exactly that. In 2014, individuals without children will qualify if they're under 133% of the poverty line ($14500/yr).
Hopefully, in a few years, we'll get another similar expansion.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.