Hello everyone, my name is Aaron, my Enforcer handle is AirWolf. I'm one of the PAX Lieutenants and I'm one of the Enforcers responsible for Security at the show.
Over the last few years we've seen more and more people Cos-playing at PAX (which is awesome), but with that comes more people bringing costume weapons (and sometimes real weapons) to the show. We do have a weapons policy which if your not familure is thus:
A COSTUME WEAPON IS *NOT* PERMITTED AT PAX IF:
- It fires or can fire any sort of projectile. {Nerf is allowed if it has been deactivated)
- It is airsoft, even if deactivated
- It looks like a real firearm at "second glance." (Yes, even if it's a kid's toy.)
- It's sharp or pointy enough to cut or pierce someone with moderate pressure. (Yes, even if it's not made of metal.)
That being said, the implementation of this has not been even or terribly effective at times. Sometimes a cos-player was told their item wasn't allowed when another Enforcer told a different cos-player that their same item was ok. This isn't very fair and is the kind of thing we would like to fix.
So I'm here to ask your opinions on the best way to implement our policy so that its fair and every is playing by the same rules. One idea we have had internally is a weapons check booth and some form of "peace bonding". What I'd love to hear is what has worked at other Con's, what you as the cos-players would like to see done for PAX and what you know doesn't work.
At the moment we're thinking of having a booth where your costume weapons get checked and then some form of stamp, badge, hole punch, or zip tie being applied either to the weapon or to your badge which you can show to other Enforcers if they want to know if you have been checked or not.
Well, what do you think?
Aaron "AirWolf" Clark
p.s. I'm not looking for any debate on what we do and don't allow, please lets not get into any arguments over not allowing airsoft or anything like that. (Thanks!)
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As far as symbol that the item is ok I have two thoughts. One is that the sign off should go on the badge so as not to interfere with the weapon or costume (many people do photoshoots and would not want something on the costume or weapon itself since it would detract from it or need to be removed which would start the process all over again). However the other side to this is that if the sign off indicator thingie is not on the weapon then someone could get signed off for one weapon, have the designation, but then bring in another weapon that was not signed off on and still get away with it. Not sure what could be done to fix either issue.
Sorry if that is long, just some of my initial thoughts at 2am!
Yeah, having a badge sticker or whatever opens up this loophole pretty wide.
If you want to be perfectly consistent, you'll need something like a check-booth. Personally I think that's obnoxious and will be frustrating to attendees.
I think your best bet is to accept that these things are judgement calls, and try to better train those people who make those judgement calls to be consistent with each other. It's like the booth babe thing. One person can think an outfit is acceptable, another can not. Should there be a clothing check booth too for all the exhibitors? Of course not.
Live with the fact that there might be an inconsistency. Have someone who can make final decisions on something that's disputed and communicate it to everyone necessary in an effective manner (Enforcer 1 says X is ok, Enforcer 2 says X is not ok, attendee asks for a final ruling, it goes to AaronC who makes a decision and communicates that decision to everyone who has the ability to make weapon policy calls so this attendee is not asked again).
that's pretty much what i was thinking. just to have a card with the weapon's description.
Perhaps just having a detailed list of what's completely forbidden on the forums and posted near the entrances too? (similar to the current weapons policy only maybe broken down a little more because I know we always have someone coming in asking about nerf and squirt guns) and then maybe AaronC or someone else makes the final call on anything that's questionable from a centralized location near where any weapons that have to be taken are kept until the convention is over?
It's surprisingly complicated to come up with a solution that works for everyone... Do you think it'd be crazy/useless to have a pre-approval thread on the forums for people to submit photos or questions concerning their props?
good idea. i'm working on a nerf maverick for my borderlands cosplay (mordecai).
it's completely unable to fire, but i figure it's worth getting the ok.
People have used the cosplay thread for that in the past.
I think having more detailed rules (sorry AaronC!) might help with fuzziness and cut down on one person saying a prop is good and another saying it is not.
I don't think this is comparable to the booth babe policy or its Enforcement. Ultimately any complaints about booth babes are handled by the PA Staff / Robert. Its not something managed by the Enforcers. There also is a check of all exhibitors, its done by you the attendees, the Enforcers who work those areas and the PA Staff who oversee the convention. There doesn't need to be a check in booth because if there was a problem it would be found at the exhibitors own area.
Costume weapons that we don't allow wander through the hallways, theaters and exhibit floor. As much as an inconvenience as it is, having one check out station makes sense. Is it wrong to say that's the small price you pay for cos-playing? Is that not how its handled at other anime cons?
Nothing is set in stone yet, so please keep your comments and suggestions coming, thanks!
This isn't an anime con. Cosplay is a very small part of PAX overall, and I think this would be a deterrent. Considering how bad PAX is at getting important information about the show out to everyone that needs it, I think a lot of people would never know about the check station until they were already AT PAX, and by that point it would be pretty shitty to be told "hey go wait in this line so you can wear your costume".
I'm not a Cosplayer (although my wife may Cosplay this year) but 1000X ^this^. Pax has a bit of a Laissez-Faire (or "Laissez les bons temps rouler" if you prefer) which will not play nice with an official check in table. Not that people would revolt against it, just many people would be halfway around the WSCC before they even heard/thought/whatever about it. (Heck if not for good veteran friends, I wouldn't have even known where to pick up my swag bag on day one, or that you didn't have to wait in the Expohall line to get it.)
The rules for the weapons are pretty clear on the user end save for maybe the blunt object one because technically anything can be used to bludgeon someone if it has enough mass, even my Megaman helmet from last year or a nerf gun if it's been reinforced in some fashion. Other than that, there's really not a whole lot of ambiguity from what I can tell.
Not even a bound trigger would work. If it's a replica of any sort of actual rifle, you're pretty much hosed. However, you could get one of the baller nerf machine guns, deactivate it (which is easy as hell to do), strip the logos off with careful sanding, and then use some black gloss spray paint and a clear coat to turn into something that would work though.
The bipod is an optional thing.
The Stampede:
This would be extra workable with the GRFS cosplay since..well...that whole future thing, lol.
Now, I'm not trying to stir up trouble. I just like to know the history. Many cons I've attended across the United States and Japan have all allowed Weapons if they are not "real" As in, they can shoot real bullets. You just Banded it, and added like a orange tip if not taking a photo so everyone can see it's a prop not a real weapon.
I've even so far as seen real swords being sold, and all they did is attach a zip tie to the pumble and sheath. Having to use Nerf guns just takes the effect away. I've got full set of Tactical gear I use for these events, and lowering the quality of my display with a nerf gun is kinda sad.
This will be my first pax so I'm not sure how much enforcers walk around or if they just stand in designated spot and keep watch, but If i was the person in charge i would envision it as the following. Every enforcer would get a black light stamp and a black light flashlight, the design of the stamp could be w/e the person in charge decides to make it. While/If they walk around the convention floor and they see someone cosplaying with a weapon they could either ask the attendee to show them where the stamp is and use their light to check it. Or if it hasn't been checked by an enforcer yet they could do the check and if it's ok stamp it for future enforcers or say its not ok and do whatever you guys do with a not ok weapon.
I really only see two(maybe 3) downsides to this method. The first being that fact that stamps, ink, and flash lights for every enforcer might get a little expensive and idk who funds enforcers or if it is completely voluntary. The second being this could be a little time consuming checking for stamps/finding them on the weapon. The 3rd potential downside is on the part of the actual cosplayer and remembering where they got their stamp if it was Okd. I know before I decided against it I was considering cosplaying Axel from KH and it would be have been a PITA to try and remember which which spike of which chakram got the stamp
We've talked about UV marking, its not feasible to equip every Enforcer with a UV flashlight.
The policy should stand as is. You don't need a weapon to have a cool costume.
Its really the only one that's feasible for such a diverse and vast convention.
Pax Attendee/Enforcer:
Prime - '11 Attendee, '12 Enforcer, '13 Enforcer
East - '12 Attendee, '15 Enforcer
I've not been around the forums for the entire history of this. But I've not gotten a clear reason why? Besides people saying "rules, are rules" That's not really a explanation. I of course will follow the rules. I'm not going to fly from Tokyo to Seattle just to get kicked out of the event. But I feel this very tight rule set needs some additional explanation so we can understand the "why". As stated before, I've been to Cons all over the US and Japan, and never had a issue with weapons as long as they got banded and secured. So this ultra tight policy is different.
I think the issue is the city of Boston. In Boston, weapons (those of the gun and metal variety) cannot be displayed in public. Of course, replica weapons often look like the real thing (including airsoft guns) so I guess they don't want to deal with judging what can be bought to the event or not.
edit 2: though I will say, this issue with the system as it is now(for all those people saying just to leave it as is) leaves too much up for enforcer discretion. That's why you end up with 10 enforcers saying a weapon is okay, and then one says it isn't. That isn't a good system.
I'm not a cosplayer, and that's part of the reason why I'm glad PAX doesn't allow anything that even vaguely looks like a real gun.
PAX attendees, as I understand it are mostly not cosplayers, have never cosplayed, and haven't been to cosplay conventions. It's just the nature of the con. So when someone like me sees a gun in a massively crowded hall, it's nice to be able to tell at first glance that I shouldn't be looking for cover.
Because it'd be embarrassing if you came up to me just to say "Hi, saw you on the forums!" only to have me freak out and dive behind the nearest booth because I couldn't see the banding.
+++BRONYS BEFORE BROS!+++
I doubt the city has much to do with it tbh. It's a PAX rule, and exists uniformly between both paxen.
I would say to still have to have them be deactivated, along with peace bonded. If your weapon isn't peace bonded, you have to either take it to the booth, or remove it from the con. It isn't that complicated. At a different con I used to go to, they used this system, and in all the years I went (4-5, I think?) there was never any incident like what you mentioned above.
I can try to give you an explanation, its my interpretation of the direction I get from above, so don't use it against PAX managment "AirWolf said...."
PAX is cosplay friendly, but its not the main focus of the convention like an anime con. To that end we don't want anything that is going to intimidate or make other attendees feel uncomfortable. This more restrictive policy is how we keep out props and costume items that we feel are not appropriate at PAX. (yes, we feel airsoft, wooden swords and the like are not appropriate at PAX).
It is not about not trusting cosplayers with their costume weapons. The people who post on this thread are not the person who shows up with a working fully functional airsoft rifle (which has happened every PAX I've been to since 2009 [all of them]).
The rules we have have nothing to do with Boston or Seattle laws (although there may be other laws in Boston or Seattle that would prevent certain items, I don't know).
All this being said, the rules themselves are not up for debate. The purpose of this thread is finding out what the actual cosplayers would like to see done for the implementation of the rules we have.
TL:DR: PAX doesn't feel realistic looking weapon props or weapons that can be used to hurt someone have a place at PAX, even if we trust the people who carry them for show.
No airsoft of any kind is allowed, clear, solid, deactivated or active.
Deactivated nerf is allowed assuming it doesn't break the rule of looking like a real gun at a glance.
The gun rules are strict, we understand that and thank you for your understanding.
From experience, I can tell you that having a central location for weapons check is almost the only way to go. If it is left up to the individual to track down an Enforcer and get him/her to check their weapon, then some people will do it, but a very large number won't. They will go out of their way to avoid Enforcers, if they think their weapon won't pass, and the Enforcers, who are often exceedingly busy in the field, probably won't see them unless they're actively looking.
I hope that helps somewhat. Also, pleasure to get a chance to talk to you, Aaron! You remain our (my wife and I) favorite Enforcer!
This is actually what I was going to suggest- unlike the anime cons I've been to around here, PAX has the distinction of having open/close times, so a lot of attendees will be in a line at the start of the day. It won't get everyone, but if you have guys working the mid-day queues before events too, you'll hit almost everyone.
My only other suggestion is- be very clear to everyone what happens when weapons DON'T pass. I had a friend lose 2 nerf guns at a con becuase he didn't know they needed to be deactivated. The booth folks broke policy and confiscated the guns immedately (they were supposed to let you take such items back to your car/hotel room). He had to leave early, forgot to try and get them back, and despite some quick emails, the guys in charge of the whole thing had dumped them already by the day after the con. It wasn't a pleasant affair. (I guess that means 'try and hold onto people's stuff for more than 12 hours' too. :P)
As to explaning prop security, etc, to Aaron who was asking, most anime cons (Otakon in particular which I go to) don't have check locations, but most of the security knows the rules which are pretty clear. Prop weapons, even real looking ones, are allowed as long as it has a non-removable orange tip, and doesn't actually shoot anything. Airsoft's aren't allowed at all. Melee weapons are fine as long as it isn't a real sword (obviously), from what I've seen. They are pretty easy going as long as you don't mess around hitting people, or waving prop guns around.
However, I realize these are two different styles of cons. The best way I think would be to have a weapon check area, A COUPLE OF THEM, so there isn't a huge line to further dissuade cosplayers if they have to wait like an hour to get in just to get stuff checked, and get something on your badge to show to other Enforcers if you get stopped. My friend last year encountered the whole "5 Enforcers said it was okay, one didn't and it got taken away". I know you guys have to do your job, but that situation is rather frustrating from our end, since majority ruled that it was fine. A central location with a final say that you have to go through is a fine plan, as long as, like I said, it doesn't take forever to get through.