because it's a terrible thing that we as a society should be working to move past instead of just shrugging and saying "well it's not my problem so fuck it"
that's no way to sell it to a white person
Really?
Cause, you know, it's been incredibly effective.
For some people, apparently, "because otherwise I'll hit you in the face" is a better answer to normative questions.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Oh man you're right. We've been so focused as a society on preventing the exploitation of women that we forgot men are the real victims!
Yeah, just pointing out blatant sexualization of men in modern media, because someone was just stating it pretty much didn't exist. Nice of you to be a goose though.
LadyM actually did a pretty decentjob of pointing out how male stereotypes can be pretty harmful, and whiile it's something most feminists seem to agree on, some of them have obsereved that it, justifibly, isn't really a priority for them. So yes men are real victims to and geese like you just help to perpetuate it, with your shallow and myopic understanding of gender relation.
Oh man you're right. We've been so focused as a society on preventing the exploitation of women that we forgot men are the real victims!
Yeah, just pointing out blatant sexualization of men in modern media, because someone was just stating it pretty much didn't exist. Nice of you to be a goose though.
LadyM actually did a pretty decentjob of pointing out how male stereotypes can be pretty harmful, and whiile it's something most feminists seem to agree on, some of them have obsereved that it, justifibly, isn't really a priority for them. So yes men are real victims to and geese like you just help to perpetuate it, with your shallow and myopic understanding of gender relation.
Hey guess what, if you have a cold and your roommate has leukemia you don't say to him "Oh man, doesn't it suck they we are both sick?"
Oh man you're right. We've been so focused as a society on preventing the exploitation of women that we forgot men are the real victims!
Yeah, just pointing out blatant sexualization of men in modern media, because someone was just stating it pretty much didn't exist. Nice of you to be a goose though.
LadyM actually did a pretty decentjob of pointing out how male stereotypes can be pretty harmful, and whiile it's something most feminists seem to agree on, some of them have obsereved that it, justifibly, isn't really a priority for them. So yes men are real victims to and geese like you just help to perpetuate it, with your shallow and myopic understanding of gender relation.
Hey guess what, if you have a cold and your roommate has leukemia you don't say to him "Oh man, doesn't it suck they we are both sick?"
You're still excused from class today regardless of who your roommate is
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Oh man you're right. We've been so focused as a society on preventing the exploitation of women that we forgot men are the real victims!
Yeah, just pointing out blatant sexualization of men in modern media, because someone was just stating it pretty much didn't exist. Nice of you to be a goose though.
LadyM actually did a pretty decentjob of pointing out how male stereotypes can be pretty harmful, and whiile it's something most feminists seem to agree on, some of them have obsereved that it, justifibly, isn't really a priority for them. So yes men are real victims to and geese like you just help to perpetuate it, with your shallow and myopic understanding of gender relation.
Yeah that's a good point. There really is no reason not to focus on the harm done to men. It's basically the whole point.
I meam fuck, obviously yes okay as a consequence of the stranglehold male power fantasies have on media we sometimes present men with overly virile heroes but fuck me it is in no way an unrecognized or equal crime against maleness. It's something men like to bring up early in the conversation so we can all agree that dammit society is terrible instead of confronting that no society is pretty fucking great if you're a man, in general. It's the same reason people love to say shit isn't about race, it's about class.
While that's nice, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest men are having issues as well there's no reason to hijack a discussion based on misogyny. Make a new thread because hijacking a discussion a exploitation of women with "men's issues" is part of a misogynist culture. The discussion is great and needed, but make a new thread then.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Again, sexual objectification is not inherently a sex/gender issue, it's just overwhelmingly applied to one sex/gender in most contemporary cultures.
Now, this isn't as bad as it used to be, at least in that men are now getting sexually objectified more often due to a cultural shift, but it's still heavily imbalanced.
A bias exists, and that bias can be harmful. We need to continue to shift that balance, so that men and women are equally treated as sexual or non-sexual, while, as a separate social discussion, we can determine how much a PERSON should be treated as sexual.
Let's say that, right now, women are objectified 70% of the time, and men are objectified 40% of the time, and in the past women were objectified 80% of the time, and men 30%. Things have become more balanced, which at least makes it something harder for some to ignore. There remains a question of how high a % that anyone should be objectified. If both men and women settle out to 65%, then we may have gotten past the sex/gender part of the issue, but 65% may be way too high and we may want to push that down to 10% for both.
A deeper discussion of gender roles and there effects isn't really related to the topic of the thread.
I was mostly pointing out what I find an amusing exception to the rule about objectification in film, one which MrMr was seeking.
It was not my intent to delrail the thread. Sorry
I don't see a whole lot of answers to the question of the objectification of women in film that don't also combat some of the worse gender roles applied to women, but doesn't really say too much about the thread topic or objectification's root cause.
Oh man you're right. We've been so focused as a society on preventing the exploitation of women that we forgot men are the real victims!
Yeah, just pointing out blatant sexualization of men in modern media, because someone was just stating it pretty much didn't exist. Nice of you to be a goose though.
LadyM actually did a pretty decentjob of pointing out how male stereotypes can be pretty harmful, and whiile it's something most feminists seem to agree on, some of them have obsereved that it, justifibly, isn't really a priority for them. So yes men are real victims to and geese like you just help to perpetuate it, with your shallow and myopic understanding of gender relation.
Hey guess what, if you have a cold and your roommate has leukemia you don't say to him "Oh man, doesn't it suck they we are both sick?"
Hey guess what if you have Leukemia and you want help and support from your roommate, then it's a good idea not to tell him he's not really ill just because he only has a cold.
because it's a terrible thing that we as a society should be working to move past instead of just shrugging and saying "well it's not my problem so fuck it"
that's no way to sell it to a white person
that's no way to sell it to a sociopath. Fortunately the two are separate.
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ButtlordFornicusLord of Bondage and PainRegistered Userregular
Oh man you're right. We've been so focused as a society on preventing the exploitation of women that we forgot men are the real victims!
Yeah, just pointing out blatant sexualization of men in modern media, because someone was just stating it pretty much didn't exist. Nice of you to be a goose though.
LadyM actually did a pretty decentjob of pointing out how male stereotypes can be pretty harmful, and whiile it's something most feminists seem to agree on, some of them have obsereved that it, justifibly, isn't really a priority for them. So yes men are real victims to and geese like you just help to perpetuate it, with your shallow and myopic understanding of gender relation.
Hey guess what, if you have a cold and your roommate has leukemia you don't say to him "Oh man, doesn't it suck they we are both sick?"
Hey guess what if you have Leukemia and you want help and support from your roommate, then it's a good idea not to tell him he's not really ill just because he only has a cold.
because it's a terrible thing that we as a society should be working to move past instead of just shrugging and saying "well it's not my problem so fuck it"
that's no way to sell it to a white person
that's no way to sell it to a sociopath. Fortunately the two are separate.
I didn't know there were so many sociopaths
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Oh man you're right. We've been so focused as a society on preventing the exploitation of women that we forgot men are the real victims!
Yeah, just pointing out blatant sexualization of men in modern media, because someone was just stating it pretty much didn't exist. Nice of you to be a goose though.
LadyM actually did a pretty decentjob of pointing out how male stereotypes can be pretty harmful, and whiile it's something most feminists seem to agree on, some of them have obsereved that it, justifibly, isn't really a priority for them. So yes men are real victims to and geese like you just help to perpetuate it, with your shallow and myopic understanding of gender relation.
Hey guess what, if you have a cold and your roommate has leukemia you don't say to him "Oh man, doesn't it suck they we are both sick?"
Hey guess what if you have Leukemia and you want help and support from your roommate, then it's a good idea not to tell him he's not really ill just because he only has a cold.
good thing that's not what's happening at all
Oh right so I didn't see multiple examples in this very thread of that. OK. Carry on.
Oh man you're right. We've been so focused as a society on preventing the exploitation of women that we forgot men are the real victims!
Yeah, just pointing out blatant sexualization of men in modern media, because someone was just stating it pretty much didn't exist. Nice of you to be a goose though.
LadyM actually did a pretty decentjob of pointing out how male stereotypes can be pretty harmful, and whiile it's something most feminists seem to agree on, some of them have obsereved that it, justifibly, isn't really a priority for them. So yes men are real victims to and geese like you just help to perpetuate it, with your shallow and myopic understanding of gender relation.
Hey guess what, if you have a cold and your roommate has leukemia you don't say to him "Oh man, doesn't it suck they we are both sick?"
Hey guess what if you have Leukemia and you want help and support from your roommate, then it's a good idea not to tell him he's not really ill just because he only has a cold.
good thing that's not what's happening at all
Oh right so I didn't see multiple examples in this very thread of that. OK. Carry on.
you didn't actually
nobody said that it's not a problem
they said it's not as severe of a problem and shouldn't enter into a discussion on misogyny
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
buttlord in tomb raider underworld there is no default
you just pick one of 3 outfits before starting each level, and normally the outfits make sense (eg you get 3 different cold ones on a snow covered island)
although the new one seems to have taken the ability to get her dirty to the nth degree
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ButtlordFornicusLord of Bondage and PainRegistered Userregular
buttlord in tomb raider underworld there is no default
you just pick one of 3 outfits before starting each level, and normally the outfits make sense (eg you get 3 different cold ones on a snow covered island)
although the new one seems to have taken the ability to get her dirty to the nth degree
see that is kinda cool! i'm okay with that (the thing in underworld) happening!
You could say that sociopaths make up a sizeable and influential portion of our society
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
You could say that sociopaths make up a sizeable and influential portion of our society
You could say lots of things. Of course that's not even what you said before. Fuck off, goose. That you think most people are sociopaths is untrue and irrelevant to the thread.
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ButtlordFornicusLord of Bondage and PainRegistered Userregular
You could say that sociopaths make up a sizeable and influential portion of our society
You could say lots of things. Of course that's not even what you said before. Fuck off, goose. That you think most people are sociopaths is untrue and irrelevant to the thread.
So that means that we do have a lot of people for whom appeals to the greater good are less effective than selfish motivation, and they aren't sociopaths.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Again, sexual objectification is not inherently a sex/gender issue, it's just overwhelmingly applied to one sex/gender in most contemporary cultures.
Now, this isn't as bad as it used to be, at least in that men are now getting sexually objectified more often due to a cultural shift, but it's still heavily imbalanced.
A bias exists, and that bias can be harmful. We need to continue to shift that balance, so that men and women are equally treated as sexual or non-sexual, while, as a separate social discussion, we can determine how much a PERSON should be treated as sexual.
Let's say that, right now, women are objectified 70% of the time, and men are objectified 40% of the time, and in the past women were objectified 80% of the time, and men 30%. Things have become more balanced, which at least makes it something harder for some to ignore. There remains a question of how high a % that anyone should be objectified. If both men and women settle out to 65%, then we may have gotten past the sex/gender part of the issue, but 65% may be way too high and we may want to push that down to 10% for both.
Again, why is sexual objectification in fiction a bad thing?
In my opinion, complaining about sexual objectification in fiction is like complaining about violence in fiction. We can recognize that violence is a Bad Thing in the real world and still enjoy it in an entertainment context. My enjoyment of murder simulators like Max Payne and Grand Theft Auto and Skyrim does not lead me or the vast majority of people towards real world violence. Saying that the sexual objectification of women in fiction leads to misogyny uses the same logic.
I enjoy the nudity in Game of Thrones. I thought that Black Widow and Maria Hill looked damn sexy in the Avengers. I'm looking forward to Skyfall, which is going to feature a man acting terribly towards beautiful women if the other films in the series are any indication. I don't think that my enjoyment of these things is at all a bad or shameful thing.
Give me a good argument about why sexual objectification in fiction is bad (and how it's morally different than violence in fiction) and I'll hear you out. I'm not disputing in the slightest that misogyny in the real world is bad. I am disputing that enjoying Selina Kyle in a catsuit, Princess Leia in a golden bikini, or the adventures of Phèdre nò Delaunay is a bad thing.
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
Cause nobody's gonna get off their butts and sexually objectify men as much as women are objectified, so you've got this disparity that's not going to go away on its own. It's much more feasible to limit the objectification of women to male levels and then pump them both up later if we really want to.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I actually think that a lot of romance novel covers make a bad example of "this is what ladies like, right? And it's showing the same stuff as what's in comics/videogames/whatever!" Because I think too many romance novel covers are just as weirdly misogynistic as comic book covers. They still show a male power fantasy and a busty female showing a lot of skin. I'm not saying that isn't some women's idea of a romantic fantasy, but it still feels like "as a man, this is what I think women fantasize about."
If you want to look at an industry that is laser pointed at the female demographic, and is wildly popular with females, I'd say look at shojo manga covers. Because for some reason Japan, bless them, is not threatened by the possibility of making a buck on what ladies actually want to look at.
What do sexualized dudes in shojo manga look like? This:
He's fit, but he isn't super bulking cut the way superheros are. Additionally, his face and hair are way more feminine than anything you'd ever see directed at females in the west.
I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems (rape being a "thing" that gets couples together in shojo is just one of the worst things ever conceived to feed to teenage girls). But at least visually, manga is less about "make sure the male power fantasy gets featured on that cover of a book aimed at women!" and more about "what do women actually want to look at?"
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
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ButtlordFornicusLord of Bondage and PainRegistered Userregular
Again, sexual objectification is not inherently a sex/gender issue, it's just overwhelmingly applied to one sex/gender in most contemporary cultures.
Now, this isn't as bad as it used to be, at least in that men are now getting sexually objectified more often due to a cultural shift, but it's still heavily imbalanced.
A bias exists, and that bias can be harmful. We need to continue to shift that balance, so that men and women are equally treated as sexual or non-sexual, while, as a separate social discussion, we can determine how much a PERSON should be treated as sexual.
Let's say that, right now, women are objectified 70% of the time, and men are objectified 40% of the time, and in the past women were objectified 80% of the time, and men 30%. Things have become more balanced, which at least makes it something harder for some to ignore. There remains a question of how high a % that anyone should be objectified. If both men and women settle out to 65%, then we may have gotten past the sex/gender part of the issue, but 65% may be way too high and we may want to push that down to 10% for both.
Again, why is sexual objectification in fiction a bad thing?
In my opinion, complaining about sexual objectification in fiction is like complaining about violence in fiction. We can recognize that violence is a Bad Thing in the real world and still enjoy it in an entertainment context. My enjoyment of murder simulators like Max Payne and Grand Theft Auto and Skyrim does not lead me or the vast majority of people towards real world violence. Saying that the sexual objectification of women in fiction leads to misogyny uses the same logic.
I enjoy the nudity in Game of Thrones. I thought that Black Widow and Maria Hill looked damn sexy in the Avengers. I'm looking forward to Skyfall, which is going to feature a man acting terribly towards beautiful women if the other films in the series are any indication. I don't think that my enjoyment of these things is at all a bad or shameful thing.
Give me a good argument about why sexual objectification in fiction is bad (and how it's morally different than violence in fiction) and I'll hear you out. I'm not disputing in the slightest that misogyny in the real world is bad. I am disputing that enjoying Selina Kyle in a catsuit, Princess Leia in a golden bikini, or the adventures of Phèdre nò Delaunay is a bad thing.
the big difference is everyone agrees that going out and blowing away eighty-seven people with a high-powered assault rifle is a bad thing and should not be emulated.
the whole "treating women as sexual objects and not as people" thing? ehhhh not so much. as a result, the objectification in fiction continues to reinforce existing beliefs, which then play a role in creating more fiction, which reinforces existing beliefs, etc etc etc
A little sexual objectification may not be a problem. Overwhelming sexual objectification is a problem, and imbalanced sexual objectification magnifies that problem. There's a saturation point for this stuff. Not every piece of media should be Human Centipede.
I actually think that a lot of romance novel covers make a bad example of "this is what ladies like, right? And it's showing the same stuff as what's in comics/videogames/whatever!" Because I think too many romance novel covers are just as weirdly misogynistic as comic book covers. They still show a male power fantasy and a busty female showing a lot of skin. I'm not saying that isn't some women's idea of a romantic fantasy, but it still feels like "as a man, this is what I think women fantasize about."
If you want to look at an industry that is laser pointed at the female demographic, and is wildly popular with females, I'd say look at shojo manga covers. Because for some reason Japan, bless them, is not threatened by the possibility of making a buck on what ladies actually want to look at.
What do sexualized dudes in shojo manga look like? This:
He's fit, but he isn't super bulking cut the way superheros are. Additionally, his face and hair are way more feminine than anything you'd ever see directed at females in the west.
I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems (rape being a "thing" that gets couples together in shojo is just one of the worst things ever conceived to feed to teenage girls). But at least visually, manga is less about "make sure the male power fantasy gets featured on that cover of a book aimed at women!" and more about "what do women actually want to look at?"
Except the sales of romance or it's various ilk pretty much show that yes, women DO actually like the way romance and it's covers objectify men.
Yeah like marketing people in a hugely profitable sector are eiher all wrong, uniformly incompetent, and fantastically lucky or tastes of women buying books of a rack in a checkout lane do not have same taste in men as school girls in Japan.
I'm not saying the former isn't true, but they sell a lot of books. Companies tend to do what is profitable, they tend to do research, and it is unlikely they would all be doing something that wasn't making books sell.
Yeah but nobody likes male pattern baldness or excess body hair
In fact I think heavily androgenized secondary sex characteristics get a universal thumbs down
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I actually think that a lot of romance novel covers make a bad example of "this is what ladies like, right? And it's showing the same stuff as what's in comics/videogames/whatever!" Because I think too many romance novel covers are just as weirdly misogynistic as comic book covers. They still show a male power fantasy and a busty female showing a lot of skin. I'm not saying that isn't some women's idea of a romantic fantasy, but it still feels like "as a man, this is what I think women fantasize about."
If you want to look at an industry that is laser pointed at the female demographic, and is wildly popular with females, I'd say look at shojo manga covers. Because for some reason Japan, bless them, is not threatened by the possibility of making a buck on what ladies actually want to look at.
What do sexualized dudes in shojo manga look like? This:
He's fit, but he isn't super bulking cut the way superheros are. Additionally, his face and hair are way more feminine than anything you'd ever see directed at females in the west.
I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems (rape being a "thing" that gets couples together in shojo is just one of the worst things ever conceived to feed to teenage girls). But at least visually, manga is less about "make sure the male power fantasy gets featured on that cover of a book aimed at women!" and more about "what do women actually want to look at?"
Except the sales of romance or it's various ilk pretty much show that yes, women DO actually like the way romance and it's covers objectify men.
The thing is, I do read romance novels and have bought a few. I've never liked the covers, and actually the first hurtle towards making me buy a romance novel at all was how the awful the covers all are.
Basically women buy these things because they're kinda the only fiction made exclusively for women (until shojo started being imported, at least). So even if it's still representing a male view point in a lot of ways, it's all we got.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems (rape being a "thing" that gets couples together in shojo is just one of the worst things ever conceived to feed to teenage girls). But at least visually, manga is less about "make sure the male power fantasy gets featured on that cover of a book aimed at women!" and more about "what do women actually want to look at?"
Some ladies actually want beefcake, though. Which is another facet of societal misogyny/misandry that tends to get overlooked. The plethora of forms that make up the vast spectrum of beautiful people. This typically gets narrowed to maybe 3 approved forms of beauty to be commercialized and if they don't give you a constant hard on then there's something wrong with you. This is starting to improve thanks to the internet exploding the number of niche markets you can target, but it is definitely still a thing. And it needlessly takes a toll on anyone who is drawn to a non-traditional form of beauty.
I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems (rape being a "thing" that gets couples together in shojo is just one of the worst things ever conceived to feed to teenage girls). But at least visually, manga is less about "make sure the male power fantasy gets featured on that cover of a book aimed at women!" and more about "what do women actually want to look at?"
Some ladies actually want beefcake, though. Which is another facet of societal misogyny/misandry that tends to get overlooked. The plethora of forms that make up the vast spectrum of beautiful people. This typically gets narrowed to maybe 3 approved forms of beauty to be commercialized and if they don't give you a constant hard on then there's something wrong with you. This is starting to improve thanks to the internet exploding the number of niche markets you can target, but it is definitely still a thing. And it needlessly takes a toll on anyone who is drawn to a non-traditional form of beauty.
it doesn't help that some non traditional forms of beauty are really out there
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I actually think that a lot of romance novel covers make a bad example of "this is what ladies like, right? And it's showing the same stuff as what's in comics/videogames/whatever!" Because I think too many romance novel covers are just as weirdly misogynistic as comic book covers. They still show a male power fantasy and a busty female showing a lot of skin. I'm not saying that isn't some women's idea of a romantic fantasy, but it still feels like "as a man, this is what I think women fantasize about."
If you want to look at an industry that is laser pointed at the female demographic, and is wildly popular with females, I'd say look at shojo manga covers. Because for some reason Japan, bless them, is not threatened by the possibility of making a buck on what ladies actually want to look at.
What do sexualized dudes in shojo manga look like? This:
He's fit, but he isn't super bulking cut the way superheros are. Additionally, his face and hair are way more feminine than anything you'd ever see directed at females in the west.
I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems (rape being a "thing" that gets couples together in shojo is just one of the worst things ever conceived to feed to teenage girls). But at least visually, manga is less about "make sure the male power fantasy gets featured on that cover of a book aimed at women!" and more about "what do women actually want to look at?"
Except the sales of romance or it's various ilk pretty much show that yes, women DO actually like the way romance and it's covers objectify men.
The thing is, I do read romance novels and have bought a few. I've never liked the covers, and actually the first hurtle towards making me buy a romance novel at all was how the awful the covers all are.
Basically women buy these things because they're kinda the only fiction made exclusively for women (until shojo started being imported, at least). So even if it's still representing a male view point in a lot of ways, it's all we got.
You are taking your own tastes and applying them to all women without any reason to do so.
YOU may think the covers are awful, but I'm thinking you are in the minority here given the continued success of the current marketing strategy.
I actually think that a lot of romance novel covers make a bad example of "this is what ladies like, right? And it's showing the same stuff as what's in comics/videogames/whatever!" Because I think too many romance novel covers are just as weirdly misogynistic as comic book covers. They still show a male power fantasy and a busty female showing a lot of skin. I'm not saying that isn't some women's idea of a romantic fantasy, but it still feels like "as a man, this is what I think women fantasize about."
If you want to look at an industry that is laser pointed at the female demographic, and is wildly popular with females, I'd say look at shojo manga covers. Because for some reason Japan, bless them, is not threatened by the possibility of making a buck on what ladies actually want to look at.
What do sexualized dudes in shojo manga look like? This:
He's fit, but he isn't super bulking cut the way superheros are. Additionally, his face and hair are way more feminine than anything you'd ever see directed at females in the west.
I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems (rape being a "thing" that gets couples together in shojo is just one of the worst things ever conceived to feed to teenage girls). But at least visually, manga is less about "make sure the male power fantasy gets featured on that cover of a book aimed at women!" and more about "what do women actually want to look at?"
Except the sales of romance or it's various ilk pretty much show that yes, women DO actually like the way romance and it's covers objectify men.
The thing is, I do read romance novels and have bought a few. I've never liked the covers, and actually the first hurtle towards making me buy a romance novel at all was how the awful the covers all are.
Basically women buy these things because they're kinda the only fiction made exclusively for women (until shojo started being imported, at least). So even if it's still representing a male view point in a lot of ways, it's all we got.
You are taking your own tastes and applying them to all women without any reason to do so.
YOU may think the covers are awful, but I'm thinking you are in the minority here given the continued success of the current marketing strategy.
I would kind of avoid trying to make assumptions without data one way or another.
Posts
For some people, apparently, "because otherwise I'll hit you in the face" is a better answer to normative questions.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah, just pointing out blatant sexualization of men in modern media, because someone was just stating it pretty much didn't exist. Nice of you to be a goose though.
LadyM actually did a pretty decentjob of pointing out how male stereotypes can be pretty harmful, and whiile it's something most feminists seem to agree on, some of them have obsereved that it, justifibly, isn't really a priority for them. So yes men are real victims to and geese like you just help to perpetuate it, with your shallow and myopic understanding of gender relation.
Also, Kenny Loggins music helps mask it as well.
You're still excused from class today regardless of who your roommate is
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah that's a good point. There really is no reason not to focus on the harm done to men. It's basically the whole point.
I meam fuck, obviously yes okay as a consequence of the stranglehold male power fantasies have on media we sometimes present men with overly virile heroes but fuck me it is in no way an unrecognized or equal crime against maleness. It's something men like to bring up early in the conversation so we can all agree that dammit society is terrible instead of confronting that no society is pretty fucking great if you're a man, in general. It's the same reason people love to say shit isn't about race, it's about class.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Now, this isn't as bad as it used to be, at least in that men are now getting sexually objectified more often due to a cultural shift, but it's still heavily imbalanced.
A bias exists, and that bias can be harmful. We need to continue to shift that balance, so that men and women are equally treated as sexual or non-sexual, while, as a separate social discussion, we can determine how much a PERSON should be treated as sexual.
Let's say that, right now, women are objectified 70% of the time, and men are objectified 40% of the time, and in the past women were objectified 80% of the time, and men 30%. Things have become more balanced, which at least makes it something harder for some to ignore. There remains a question of how high a % that anyone should be objectified. If both men and women settle out to 65%, then we may have gotten past the sex/gender part of the issue, but 65% may be way too high and we may want to push that down to 10% for both.
I was mostly pointing out what I find an amusing exception to the rule about objectification in film, one which MrMr was seeking.
It was not my intent to delrail the thread. Sorry
I don't see a whole lot of answers to the question of the objectification of women in film that don't also combat some of the worse gender roles applied to women, but doesn't really say too much about the thread topic or objectification's root cause.
Hey guess what if you have Leukemia and you want help and support from your roommate, then it's a good idea not to tell him he's not really ill just because he only has a cold.
that's no way to sell it to a sociopath. Fortunately the two are separate.
good thing that's not what's happening at all
I didn't know there were so many sociopaths
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Oh right so I didn't see multiple examples in this very thread of that. OK. Carry on.
You don't, in fact.
you didn't actually
nobody said that it's not a problem
they said it's not as severe of a problem and shouldn't enter into a discussion on misogyny
you just pick one of 3 outfits before starting each level, and normally the outfits make sense (eg you get 3 different cold ones on a snow covered island)
although the new one seems to have taken the ability to get her dirty to the nth degree
see that is kinda cool! i'm okay with that (the thing in underworld) happening!
You could say that sociopaths make up a sizeable and influential portion of our society
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
You could say lots of things. Of course that's not even what you said before. Fuck off, goose. That you think most people are sociopaths is untrue and irrelevant to the thread.
they actually don't though
So that means that we do have a lot of people for whom appeals to the greater good are less effective than selfish motivation, and they aren't sociopaths.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Again, why is sexual objectification in fiction a bad thing?
In my opinion, complaining about sexual objectification in fiction is like complaining about violence in fiction. We can recognize that violence is a Bad Thing in the real world and still enjoy it in an entertainment context. My enjoyment of murder simulators like Max Payne and Grand Theft Auto and Skyrim does not lead me or the vast majority of people towards real world violence. Saying that the sexual objectification of women in fiction leads to misogyny uses the same logic.
I enjoy the nudity in Game of Thrones. I thought that Black Widow and Maria Hill looked damn sexy in the Avengers. I'm looking forward to Skyfall, which is going to feature a man acting terribly towards beautiful women if the other films in the series are any indication. I don't think that my enjoyment of these things is at all a bad or shameful thing.
Give me a good argument about why sexual objectification in fiction is bad (and how it's morally different than violence in fiction) and I'll hear you out. I'm not disputing in the slightest that misogyny in the real world is bad. I am disputing that enjoying Selina Kyle in a catsuit, Princess Leia in a golden bikini, or the adventures of Phèdre nò Delaunay is a bad thing.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
If you want to look at an industry that is laser pointed at the female demographic, and is wildly popular with females, I'd say look at shojo manga covers. Because for some reason Japan, bless them, is not threatened by the possibility of making a buck on what ladies actually want to look at.
What do sexualized dudes in shojo manga look like? This:
He's fit, but he isn't super bulking cut the way superheros are. Additionally, his face and hair are way more feminine than anything you'd ever see directed at females in the west.
I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have it's own problems (rape being a "thing" that gets couples together in shojo is just one of the worst things ever conceived to feed to teenage girls). But at least visually, manga is less about "make sure the male power fantasy gets featured on that cover of a book aimed at women!" and more about "what do women actually want to look at?"
the big difference is everyone agrees that going out and blowing away eighty-seven people with a high-powered assault rifle is a bad thing and should not be emulated.
the whole "treating women as sexual objects and not as people" thing? ehhhh not so much. as a result, the objectification in fiction continues to reinforce existing beliefs, which then play a role in creating more fiction, which reinforces existing beliefs, etc etc etc
Except the sales of romance or it's various ilk pretty much show that yes, women DO actually like the way romance and it's covers objectify men.
I'm not saying the former isn't true, but they sell a lot of books. Companies tend to do what is profitable, they tend to do research, and it is unlikely they would all be doing something that wasn't making books sell.
In fact I think heavily androgenized secondary sex characteristics get a universal thumbs down
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The thing is, I do read romance novels and have bought a few. I've never liked the covers, and actually the first hurtle towards making me buy a romance novel at all was how the awful the covers all are.
Basically women buy these things because they're kinda the only fiction made exclusively for women (until shojo started being imported, at least). So even if it's still representing a male view point in a lot of ways, it's all we got.
Some ladies actually want beefcake, though. Which is another facet of societal misogyny/misandry that tends to get overlooked. The plethora of forms that make up the vast spectrum of beautiful people. This typically gets narrowed to maybe 3 approved forms of beauty to be commercialized and if they don't give you a constant hard on then there's something wrong with you. This is starting to improve thanks to the internet exploding the number of niche markets you can target, but it is definitely still a thing. And it needlessly takes a toll on anyone who is drawn to a non-traditional form of beauty.
it doesn't help that some non traditional forms of beauty are really out there
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
You are taking your own tastes and applying them to all women without any reason to do so.
YOU may think the covers are awful, but I'm thinking you are in the minority here given the continued success of the current marketing strategy.
I would kind of avoid trying to make assumptions without data one way or another.