I think the only way we could really compare the difference in that extra vacation week, would be to check on various companies in the US which start giving 3 weeks instead of 2 for the same level of employee.
In my opinion, I think it comes down to the average employee. There are hard workers in every country that will be incredibly productive in whatever their work time per week is. There will also be people who won't be very productive no matter how much vacation time they get and there's the folks in between those two.
I'm guessing it's the same with your country Janson, but even though I only get 2 weeks of vacation time, I have 10 paid company holidays in addition to the 10 days of vacation time I get. I also have the option of working during those holidays in order to use that day at another time. So technically, I could work 4 company holidays, one of those is a floating holiday and I could now have 3 weeks of vacation.
Also, if you don't get sick much at all, look for a company that gives you vacation time and sick time all in one bundle, which can be 3-4 weeks or so. Flex days I think it's called, though I forget the name off the top of my head.
I did used to work 40+ hour weeks at a store, and although I didn't really realise it, I was stressed and my moods were reflecting on others, to the point where my boyfriend of the time said I'd either have to move out or quit and find a new job because I was so miserable. He would have rather I was unemployed and not paying rent for a while than working long hours and bringing in money. I was too busy to really notice myself.
I can't say this is neccesarily true for all Americans, but in my family 40 hour weeks are short. My mom works as much overtime as she can get, and my dad's self-employed these days, meaning he can work at home, meaning anytime he's got more than an hour without something else to do he's probably working (he doesn't have much of hobbies). There was a period over about 3-4 months this winter I was working 2 jobs for about 55-60 hours a week, and it wasn't the hours that burned me out so much as my second job (theater usher) being utterly shitty shitty shitty. Now I'm at 40 hours but I'd work overtime if they had it. And there's a couple people I've worked with as well who have a second job on top of their full time job. A 40 hour work week is almost lazy with us.
Also, re: closing times, I may not want to party in a store at 9 pm, but I do want to shop there. There's been a couple jobs I've worked where I don't even get off work til after 1 am. Which isn't to say everything around here's open that late, but at least being open after dark would be expected.
See, my point was that I didn't realise myself that I was stressed. I could've worked longer and still functioned perfectly fine, but the people closest to me noticed a difference and were annoyed at not getting to spend more time with me.
It wasn't hard work - not at all, for most of the time I was just standing and waiting to serve customers. So it wasn't that my brain or my body were getting exceptionally tired. It was just that it was mindless and not enjoyable and I was frittering away time that could've been spent doing many other worthwhile things.
Right now I work 9 am to 5.30 pm, get home at 6 pm, take a couple of hours to greet my housemate, cook dinner, and eat dinner, and then I have a couple more hours to do one of the following things: watch a movie, read a book, play a game, or go to the gym. I'm in bed by 11 pm and get a good amount of sleep; I find a solid 8 hours really, really helps. Sure, I've done weeks of work where I've only slept 5-6 hours, but over time I get worn out. And taking the time every evening to socialise with someone, even if it's just my housemate, also really helps. I notice that I'm a lot happier when I have human interaction outside of work.
I think the only way we could really compare the difference in that extra vacation week, would be to check on various companies in the US which start giving 3 weeks instead of 2 for the same level of employee.
In my opinion, I think it comes down to the average employee. There are hard workers in every country that will be incredibly productive in whatever their work time per week is. There will also be people who won't be very productive no matter how much vacation time they get and there's the folks in between those two.
I'm guessing it's the same with your country Janson, but even though I only get 2 weeks of vacation time, I have 10 paid company holidays in addition to the 10 days of vacation time I get. I also have the option of working during those holidays in order to use that day at another time. So technically, I could work 4 company holidays, one of those is a floating holiday and I could now have 3 weeks of vacation.
Also, if you don't get sick much at all, look for a company that gives you vacation time and sick time all in one bundle, which can be 3-4 weeks or so. Flex days I think it's called, though I forget the name off the top of my head.
I agree with this post whole-heartedly, and yes, I get 19 days I can choose, and 6 days which are company holidays. I don't really have a defined amount of sick leave, but I've never taken more than 3 days a year off sick.
I'm probably someone in the middle. I do my work, and I do it to the best of my ability, but frankly I'm not getting paid enough to want to slave away, and a couple of my friends already think I do a bit too much work as it is I don't want my life to be in any way shaped or defined by my job.
You know, originally economist/philosophers like Adam Smith argued that capitalism worked so well with democracy because of the increased efficiency that specialization yielded. They thought that people would forego a portion of the higher profits in exchange for more leisure time, and that this leisure time would be partially employed for education and civic life.
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SerpentSometimes Vancouver, BC, sometimes Brisbane, QLDRegistered Userregular
You know, originally economist/philosophers like Adam Smith argued that capitalism worked so well with democracy because of the increased efficiency that specialization yielded. They thought that people would forego a portion of the higher profits in exchange for more leisure time, and that this leisure time would be partially employed for education and civic life.
I often negotiate for more vacation time in lieue of mo money.
I have enough damn money. I want more time to spend it in, haha.
I have the feeling that a lot of Americans and Japanese identify themselves with their job.
Ask an American who he is and the answer will probably be something like "real estate agent" or "manager" or whatever. Ask a European who he is and he will probably stare at you for a few moments before going "uuuhhh, I'm Jean D'Eau, Father of two, I work for a big transport company and I like football and sudokus"
Reading this thread kind of makes me feel superior to y'all, it almost sounds like you have to work such long days because you live in a shitty country and won't make enough money to take some time off. This probably has something to do with the idea a lot of people have that "What's good for the company is good for me" or -- more to the point -- "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA". This feeling hardly exists over here. People feel a lot less attached to their company, it's "just a job" so to say.
Unrelated -- A lot of Dutchmen work part-time. This results in a low unemployment rate and it seems like a lot of women work. But in reality, they work while their children are at school and get home before the kids get home so they can give them a sammich and a hug.
*edit: it also means companies can hire a lot of youngsters to do the mind-numbing work for low wages.
This probably has something to do with the idea a lot of people have that "What's good for the company is good for me" or -- more to the point -- "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA". This feeling hardly exists over here. People feel a lot less attached to their company, it's "just a job" so to say.
That used to be the case - when unions were strong and that GM quote was the honest truth, but notwadays we don't really do loyalty. We're just workaholics and slaves to the man.
I don't like any generalisation that breaks this difference into "Well Europeans think like this and Americans think like this". It's too pat; there's going to be plenty of either viewpoint in any country.
From what I've seen, the difference between America and say, Dutchland, (actually Deutchland is where I'm pulling this comparison from, but I imagine Germany and the Netherlands are pretty similar in this respect) in regards to longer working hours has been attributed (by science!) to greater rewards for overtime, less job security and less of a safety net. Social security and welfare is a big issue here and the lack of it would definitely encourage further work.
I don't like any generalisation that breaks this difference into "Well Europeans think like this and Americans think like this". It's too pat; there's going to be plenty of either viewpoint in any country.
From what I've seen, the difference between America and say, Dutchland, (actually Deutchland is where I'm pulling this comparison from, but I imagine Germany and the Netherlands are pretty similar in this respect) in regards to longer working hours has been attributed (by science!) to greater rewards for overtime, less job security and less of a safety net. Social security and welfare is a big issue here and the lack of it would definitely encourage further work.
This probably has something to do with the idea a lot of people have that "What's good for the company is good for me" or -- more to the point -- "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA". This feeling hardly exists over here. People feel a lot less attached to their company, it's "just a job" so to say.
That used to be the case - when unions were strong and that GM quote was the honest truth, but notwadays we don't really do loyalty. We're just workaholics and slaves to the man.
Yes, of course we're talking in generalisations. I don't even want to bother with adding "some" and "most" and "anecdotal" to every sentence. D;
--
Weird, I thought there was some noise when GM screwed up with something, maybe I didn't pay enough attention or something. I'll retract that then.
Oh, one anecdote I have about my current employer ~ People work X hours per year and they can fill these in themselves. As long as they tell beforehand and their boss agrees, everything goes. Warehouse opens at 730 and closes at 1700. This means that they usually work something like 4 days a week when it's slow and 6 weeks during the busy weeks around Christmas.
On Saturdays you make 150% of your hourly wage and 200% on Sunday.
Employees are extremely happy about the company, it scored a 8.9/10 this year. Please note that most folks haven't followed much of an education and most of them are immigrants. Be jealous, America. :P
I don't like any generalisation that breaks this difference into "Well Europeans think like this and Americans think like this". It's too pat; there's going to be plenty of either viewpoint in any country.
From what I've seen, the difference between America and say, Dutchland, (actually Deutchland is where I'm pulling this comparison from, but I imagine Germany and the Netherlands are pretty similar in this respect) in regards to longer working hours has been attributed (by science!) to greater rewards for overtime, less job security and less of a safety net. Social security and welfare is a big issue here and the lack of it would definitely encourage further work.
Um. Deutschland is Germany.
And?
Oh right, I can't spell Deutschland. Well, it's a stupid word anyway. Learn English already Germany.
I don't like any generalisation that breaks this difference into "Well Europeans think like this and Americans think like this". It's too pat; there's going to be plenty of either viewpoint in any country.
From what I've seen, the difference between America and say, Dutchland, (actually Deutchland is where I'm pulling this comparison from, but I imagine Germany and the Netherlands are pretty similar in this respect) in regards to longer working hours has been attributed (by science!) to greater rewards for overtime, less job security and less of a safety net. Social security and welfare is a big issue here and the lack of it would definitely encourage further work.
Um. Deutschland is Germany.
And?
Oh right, I can't spell Deutschland. Well, it's a stupid word anyway. Learn English already Germany.
No no. I dont care you spelled it wrong. You say youre talking about Deutschland and then "but I imagine Germany and the Netherlands are pretty similar", so you're saying they're seperate countries. Just didnt know if you thought there was like a seperate country from Germany called that or something.
No no. I dont care you spelled it wrong. You say youre talking about Deutschland and then "but I imagine Germany and the Netherlands are pretty similar", so you're saying they're seperate countries. Just didnt know if you thought there was like a seperate country from Germany called that or something.
No no. I dont care you spelled it wrong. You say youre talking about Deutschland and then "but I imagine Germany and the Netherlands are pretty similar", so you're saying they're seperate countries. Just didnt know if you thought there was like a seperate country from Germany called that or something.
This probably has something to do with the idea a lot of people have that "What's good for the company is good for me" or -- more to the point -- "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA". This feeling hardly exists over here. People feel a lot less attached to their company, it's "just a job" so to say.
That used to be the case - when unions were strong and that GM quote was the honest truth, but notwadays we don't really do loyalty. We're just workaholics and slaves to the man.
Yea, loyalty died out a generation or two ago.
People just joining the workforce are likely to change jobs every two to three years today. There's no company loyalty with expectations of a fat pension after twenty years of honest work. The only place you'll find long lasting commitments to a job are in the public sector where raises and benefits are secure.
I definitely don't feel attached to my company. They're boning the hell out of me. And the only people I've seen work +60 hours a week are people making oodles of cash (lawyers, doctors, etc...) or those driven by their ideologies (e.g. non-profits). The company is my family left the US long ago, but you can still find it in Japan.
I don't think I could take a class without sparring. That would be like a class without techniques. Sparring has value not only as an important (necessary) step in applying your techniques to fighting, but also because it provides a rush and feeling of elation, confidence, and joyful exhaustion that can only be matched by ... oh shit, I am describing sex again. Sorry everyone. - Epicurus
Yes, of course we're talking in generalisations. I don't even want to bother with adding "some" and "most" and "anecdotal" to every sentence. D;
But is it even some and most? I don't think even anecdotally those generalisations work. But maybe it's just because in Australia we use the same generalisations from city to city, or even suburb to suburb. It's a pretty iffy one to apply to a whole continent.
Especially when you could be using science. Done by boffins.
I can accumulate a max of 2 weeks paid vacation. And I have to use it up by the end of the year. If not, then it gets cashed out at 50% of it's value and taxed.
And there's no sick leave where I work. I thought US gov't contractors were the shiznit. Apparently not mine.
Goodbye private sector. Hello public sector!
you must be working for the wrong contractor. I get 3 weeks paid vacation + the 10 governmant holidays.
We did lose our christmas bonuses though. But thats only because the company i work for was bought out 2 times in under a year.
Oh, one anecdote I have about my current employer ~ People work X hours per year and they can fill these in themselves. As long as they tell beforehand and their boss agrees, everything goes. Warehouse opens at 730 and closes at 1700. This means that they usually work something like 4 days a week when it's slow and 6 weeks during the busy weeks around Christmas.
My employer is trying hard to implement flexible work schedules for various reasons but it's still kind of a pain. I work a 35-hour week, I have Tuesday and Thursday mornings off, and people still assume that if it's after 9 am local time I'm going to be in the office. So even though my schedule is posted in seventeen different places, including my e-mail sig, every Tuesday and Thursday when I come in I will have a chain of emails from some poor sap who was trying to get help for some urgent problem. (Of course, I think anybody who uses email for urgent problems is a dolt, but people still do it.)
Beyond that, for the first several months there was a subtle but unmistakable resentment coming from certain co-workers. "Why does he get to roll in at noon when I'm here busting my ass at 8:30?" So I'd get nasty looks and snide comments from certain people when I'd walk in. It definitely wasn't universal, and it eventually went away, but I think it'd indicative of our culture to a certain degree. You're supposed to be proud of your overtime.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Hmm, same thing over here. Some loons start really early and will brag about it all day long. But it's not like they're doing anything in those hours, they're the only one on the floor anyway, all the more time to get some coffee and read the paper!
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In my opinion, I think it comes down to the average employee. There are hard workers in every country that will be incredibly productive in whatever their work time per week is. There will also be people who won't be very productive no matter how much vacation time they get and there's the folks in between those two.
I'm guessing it's the same with your country Janson, but even though I only get 2 weeks of vacation time, I have 10 paid company holidays in addition to the 10 days of vacation time I get. I also have the option of working during those holidays in order to use that day at another time. So technically, I could work 4 company holidays, one of those is a floating holiday and I could now have 3 weeks of vacation.
Also, if you don't get sick much at all, look for a company that gives you vacation time and sick time all in one bundle, which can be 3-4 weeks or so. Flex days I think it's called, though I forget the name off the top of my head.
I can't say this is neccesarily true for all Americans, but in my family 40 hour weeks are short. My mom works as much overtime as she can get, and my dad's self-employed these days, meaning he can work at home, meaning anytime he's got more than an hour without something else to do he's probably working (he doesn't have much of hobbies). There was a period over about 3-4 months this winter I was working 2 jobs for about 55-60 hours a week, and it wasn't the hours that burned me out so much as my second job (theater usher) being utterly shitty shitty shitty. Now I'm at 40 hours but I'd work overtime if they had it. And there's a couple people I've worked with as well who have a second job on top of their full time job. A 40 hour work week is almost lazy with us.
Also, re: closing times, I may not want to party in a store at 9 pm, but I do want to shop there. There's been a couple jobs I've worked where I don't even get off work til after 1 am. Which isn't to say everything around here's open that late, but at least being open after dark would be expected.
It wasn't hard work - not at all, for most of the time I was just standing and waiting to serve customers. So it wasn't that my brain or my body were getting exceptionally tired. It was just that it was mindless and not enjoyable and I was frittering away time that could've been spent doing many other worthwhile things.
Right now I work 9 am to 5.30 pm, get home at 6 pm, take a couple of hours to greet my housemate, cook dinner, and eat dinner, and then I have a couple more hours to do one of the following things: watch a movie, read a book, play a game, or go to the gym. I'm in bed by 11 pm and get a good amount of sleep; I find a solid 8 hours really, really helps. Sure, I've done weeks of work where I've only slept 5-6 hours, but over time I get worn out. And taking the time every evening to socialise with someone, even if it's just my housemate, also really helps. I notice that I'm a lot happier when I have human interaction outside of work.
I agree with this post whole-heartedly, and yes, I get 19 days I can choose, and 6 days which are company holidays. I don't really have a defined amount of sick leave, but I've never taken more than 3 days a year off sick.
I'm probably someone in the middle. I do my work, and I do it to the best of my ability, but frankly I'm not getting paid enough to want to slave away, and a couple of my friends already think I do a bit too much work as it is
I often negotiate for more vacation time in lieue of mo money.
I have enough damn money. I want more time to spend it in, haha.
Ask an American who he is and the answer will probably be something like "real estate agent" or "manager" or whatever. Ask a European who he is and he will probably stare at you for a few moments before going "uuuhhh, I'm Jean D'Eau, Father of two, I work for a big transport company and I like football and sudokus"
Reading this thread kind of makes me feel superior to y'all, it almost sounds like you have to work such long days because you live in a shitty country and won't make enough money to take some time off. This probably has something to do with the idea a lot of people have that "What's good for the company is good for me" or -- more to the point -- "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA". This feeling hardly exists over here. People feel a lot less attached to their company, it's "just a job" so to say.
Unrelated -- A lot of Dutchmen work part-time. This results in a low unemployment rate and it seems like a lot of women work. But in reality, they work while their children are at school and get home before the kids get home so they can give them a sammich and a hug.
*edit: it also means companies can hire a lot of youngsters to do the mind-numbing work for low wages.
That used to be the case - when unions were strong and that GM quote was the honest truth, but notwadays we don't really do loyalty. We're just workaholics and slaves to the man.
From what I've seen, the difference between America and say, Dutchland, (actually Deutchland is where I'm pulling this comparison from, but I imagine Germany and the Netherlands are pretty similar in this respect) in regards to longer working hours has been attributed (by science!) to greater rewards for overtime, less job security and less of a safety net. Social security and welfare is a big issue here and the lack of it would definitely encourage further work.
Um. Deutschland is Germany.
Yea, loyalty died out a generation or two ago.
--
Weird, I thought there was some noise when GM screwed up with something, maybe I didn't pay enough attention or something. I'll retract that then.
Oh, one anecdote I have about my current employer ~ People work X hours per year and they can fill these in themselves. As long as they tell beforehand and their boss agrees, everything goes. Warehouse opens at 730 and closes at 1700. This means that they usually work something like 4 days a week when it's slow and 6 weeks during the busy weeks around Christmas.
On Saturdays you make 150% of your hourly wage and 200% on Sunday.
Employees are extremely happy about the company, it scored a 8.9/10 this year. Please note that most folks haven't followed much of an education and most of them are immigrants. Be jealous, America. :P
And?
Oh right, I can't spell Deutschland. Well, it's a stupid word anyway. Learn English already Germany.
No no. I dont care you spelled it wrong. You say youre talking about Deutschland and then "but I imagine Germany and the Netherlands are pretty similar", so you're saying they're seperate countries. Just didnt know if you thought there was like a seperate country from Germany called that or something.
It's a pretty lousy play of words, Lowkes :P
It is the lousiest
People just joining the workforce are likely to change jobs every two to three years today. There's no company loyalty with expectations of a fat pension after twenty years of honest work. The only place you'll find long lasting commitments to a job are in the public sector where raises and benefits are secure.
I definitely don't feel attached to my company. They're boning the hell out of me. And the only people I've seen work +60 hours a week are people making oodles of cash (lawyers, doctors, etc...) or those driven by their ideologies (e.g. non-profits). The company is my family left the US long ago, but you can still find it in Japan.
Check out the mad benefits at Koei.
But is it even some and most? I don't think even anecdotally those generalisations work. But maybe it's just because in Australia we use the same generalisations from city to city, or even suburb to suburb. It's a pretty iffy one to apply to a whole continent.
Especially when you could be using science. Done by boffins.
you must be working for the wrong contractor. I get 3 weeks paid vacation + the 10 governmant holidays.
We did lose our christmas bonuses though. But thats only because the company i work for was bought out 2 times in under a year.
My employer is trying hard to implement flexible work schedules for various reasons but it's still kind of a pain. I work a 35-hour week, I have Tuesday and Thursday mornings off, and people still assume that if it's after 9 am local time I'm going to be in the office. So even though my schedule is posted in seventeen different places, including my e-mail sig, every Tuesday and Thursday when I come in I will have a chain of emails from some poor sap who was trying to get help for some urgent problem. (Of course, I think anybody who uses email for urgent problems is a dolt, but people still do it.)
Beyond that, for the first several months there was a subtle but unmistakable resentment coming from certain co-workers. "Why does he get to roll in at noon when I'm here busting my ass at 8:30?" So I'd get nasty looks and snide comments from certain people when I'd walk in. It definitely wasn't universal, and it eventually went away, but I think it'd indicative of our culture to a certain degree. You're supposed to be proud of your overtime.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.