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Harry Dresden: Wizard, White Knight and Complete Dork.

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    DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    I'm kind of interested in the distant past in regards to this:
    First of all, the things locked up below can't exactly be insurmountable... they've already been surmounted. Since Merlin built the prison and Merlin wasn't around at the beginning of time, it seems likely that someone or something beat the Hell out of those creatures and locked them away. Something with enough umph that it keeps Naagolishi in the visiting room because they're relatively harmless.

    I suppose there's something to be said for the mucking about with time shenanigans to create DemonReach, but even so, Demonreach seems to only respond to one Warden, likely a wizard following in the footsteps of Merlin. So, we've got some linearity there.

    I wonder if Butcher is going to eventually make Harry into Merlin. Could be interesting. It would make Odin's statement about "Maybe you've already done it." fit. Also how the barrier spells used were the same ones that Harry uses, just in different time periods and mashed together.

    Being your own progenitor is a bit weird, though.

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    SyrdonSyrdon Registered User regular
    Derrick wrote: »
    I'm kind of interested in the distant past in regards to this:
    First of all, the things locked up below can't exactly be insurmountable... they've already been surmounted. Since Merlin built the prison and Merlin wasn't around at the beginning of time, it seems likely that someone or something beat the Hell out of those creatures and locked them away. Something with enough umph that it keeps Naagolishi in the visiting room because they're relatively harmless.

    I suppose there's something to be said for the mucking about with time shenanigans to create DemonReach, but even so, Demonreach seems to only respond to one Warden, likely a wizard following in the footsteps of Merlin. So, we've got some linearity there.

    I wonder if Butcher is going to eventually make Harry into Merlin. Could be interesting. It would make Odin's statement about "Maybe you've already done it." fit. Also how the barrier spells used were the same ones that Harry uses, just in different time periods and mashed together.

    Being your own progenitor is a bit weird, though.
    That theory seems pretty solid, I suspect you've got something correct with it.
    It also fits the growth arc we've been expecting from Harry for a while now. He's got soulfire, its always mentioned as the creative power, he has yet to get around to creating a damn thing with it. I'm expecting some serious growth in Harry's abilities with building things. Assuming that happens, the usual power creep trend could reasonably lead to the creation of the ghostbuster's containment unit Demonreach.

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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    Theory: at the end of the case files, it's assumed Harry is dead, when in fact he's thrown back in time and becomes Merlin.
    Theory: The BAT won't have Harry as the protagonist, it'll have Maggie as the protagonist. Harry will be the mentor, and he'll tutor Maggie outside time, no longer able to act directly in the mortal world.

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    Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    I came up with almost the same theory after reading Cold Days and so did a friend of mine, it's a very solid guess.

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    warbanwarban Who the Hoof do you think we are? Registered User regular
    Harry being Merlin seems so cheesy but fits really well.

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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    while not impossible, i don't think it explains why
    the outsiders are sooooo damn interested in Harry to the point of trying to recruit him, even as a stalling tactic. essentially they've had several opportunities to kill him and have chosen not to. merlin seems like the kind of guy you WOULD want to kill if possible.

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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    He doesn't need to be Merlin for that. He's the Starchild, whatever the hell that is.

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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    He's a Starchild.
    He's not alone in being born on a special day; IIRC, it's been implied before that Elaine was born under similar circumstance.

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    He's a Starchild.
    He's not alone in being born on a special day; IIRC, it's been implied before that Elaine was born under similar circumstance.

    If you could recall what book/chapter/page that would be handy :P I don't recall that, but Starborn isn't mentioned much.

    And as to "Why now?" question: In addition to all the answers given- why not now? You need to move at some point.

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    see317see317 Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    He's a Starchild.
    He's not alone in being born on a special day; IIRC, it's been implied before that Elaine was born under similar circumstance.

    If you could recall what book/chapter/page that would be handy :P I don't recall that, but Starborn isn't mentioned much.

    And as to "Why now?" question: In addition to all the answers given- why not now? You need to move at some point.
    I don't remember Elaine being specified, but I do remember that in Cold Days Harry was referred to as a starborn instead of the starborn.
    I kind of hope it's a genetic thing, and now that Harry's a daddy the risk to his daughter will be enough of a push to force him into her life to protect her.
    Then Harry's daughter is actually going to grow up to kick Outsider ass after Harry bites off more then he can chew and gets taken apart by Cthulhu's granpappy.

    see317 on
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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    You kind of spoilered the wrong half of your post :P I mean intentionally and it's not really much of a spoiler anyway, but conjecture is probably safer out of the 2 of those things is all.
    And "A starborn" could mean of the moment so he is unique or one of, either one.

    People are flipping their shit over him "letting" Molly do stuff or for neglecting her training or some such BS. I can hardly wait to see what they'd say about Maggie getting into the fight.

    Xeddicus on
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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    RE: Odin
    I think he's been dipping his fingers in the mortal pie for awhile now. Or at least eating the milk and cookies that they leave next to the fireplace one night a year. Remember American Gods?
    Odin probably has more power than other old dieties because he has a fucking day of the week named after him.

    RE: Cold Days

    I cringed when the
    temporal nonsense started happening. My first response was, "Oh my god, Harry is going to be casting the ritual from the future for some reason, because the ritual is actually to STOP the bad guys. This is going to be like Prisoner of Azkaban where he's seeing the result of his own future time travel."

    Thankfully it veered off from that (which isn't to say that Butcher couldn't go back to it later). It's very difficult to do time travel stories correctly, and in most circumstances forces me out of immersion while I figure out the paradoxes.

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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    EvilOtaku wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Guys, I really don't think the amulet is important. At all.

    What I *DO* think is very interesting is:
    Mother Summer tells Harry (in probably the most direct way she can) that she and Mother Winter are the same entity. It makes perfect sense that Mab and Titiana are also exact mirrors of each other. My theory is that the Outsider War requires a resolute and ruthless queen devoid of any compassion. To accomplish this, the Mother entity split herself off from her compassion completely, while using it as a bulwark against the viciousness of the war entity taking over all of the World's Creation.

    I did miss something in the books that's nagging at me. Someone took Mother Winter's walking cane, but I can't remember who that might be. Does Ebeneezer have the "Blackstaff" of Winter? I would think that depriving Winter the mobility of it's (prime?) deity would have ramifications on the Outsider War. Perhaps Eb isn't aware of the greater conflict?

    re: The Mothers
    What I find interesting is that when Harry was summoning Mother Winter, he used Skuld and Atropos as two of her names. Now, if Mother Summer is also a Fate, then who is the 3rd?

    I brought up these same 2 points.
    There is likely a 3rd "Mother" figure out there if the names of the Fates belong to the other 2, and they all may be parts of a Gaea type figure.

    Plus the staff/cane Winter is missing, is likely the Blackstaff. Who knows how long its been missing though. The Council may have no idea what the Blackstaff actually is, but it is certainly not a normal staff by any means.
    Aren't the fates typically presented as Maiden, Mother, and Crone, paralleling the Lady, Queen, and Mother relationship of the Fae Courts? Or am I mixing my mythologies here?

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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    He's a Starchild.
    He's not alone in being born on a special day; IIRC, it's been implied before that Elaine was born under similar circumstance.

    If you could recall what book/chapter/page that would be handy :P I don't recall that, but Starborn isn't mentioned much.

    And as to "Why now?" question: In addition to all the answers given- why not now? You need to move at some point.

    I don't remember Elaine being specified, but I do remember that in Cold Days Harry was referred to as a starborn instead of the starborn.
    I kind of hope it's a genetic thing, and now that Harry's a daddy the risk to his daughter will be enough of a push to force him into her life to protect her.
    Then Harry's daughter is actually going to grow up to kick Outsider ass after Harry bites off more then he can chew and gets taken apart by Cthulhu's granpappy.

    Wasn't it actually Harry's mother?

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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    cold days question
    the gate and the "war" keep outsiders out, but there was a whole army of them attacking demonreach. how? I get that they've smuggled in things before because finding them is not infallible but that seems like kind of a big oversight to have an army that can compete with the Wild Hunt here and not have it been detected.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    cold days question
    the gate and the "war" keep outsiders out, but there was a whole army of them attacking demonreach. how? I get that they've smuggled in things before because finding them is not infallible but that seems like kind of a big oversight to have an army that can compete with the Wild Hunt here and not have it been detected.
    That wasn't an army of Outsiders. That was a fucking tactical squad. And it took the entire Wild Hunt to deal with them.

    This should suggest how scary Outsiders are.

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    EvilOtakuEvilOtaku Registered User regular
    Aren't the fates typically presented as Maiden, Mother, and Crone, paralleling the Lady, Queen, and Mother relationship of the Fae Courts? Or am I mixing my mythologies here?

    The Fates are typically presented as sisters. Past, Present, and Future.
    Skuld represents The Future in Norse Mythos. Atropos is the Cutter of the Thread of Life in Greek Mythology. Both represent Death, which pretty much sums up Mother Winter. My theory is that Mother Summer is Lachesis(The Allotter of the Thread of Life ) and Verdandi(The Present). There should also be a third Mother representing Urd (The Past) and Clotho (Spinner of the Thread of Life). I believe she will end up being
    The White God
    . The White God creates Life, Summer preserves it until Winter decides its time to end it.

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    DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Butcher is way too fond of teasing his readers with real-world mythological connections. I think it's his way of keeping us occupied between books.

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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    EvilOtaku wrote: »
    Aren't the fates typically presented as Maiden, Mother, and Crone, paralleling the Lady, Queen, and Mother relationship of the Fae Courts? Or am I mixing my mythologies here?

    The Fates are typically presented as sisters. Past, Present, and Future.
    Skuld represents The Future in Norse Mythos. Atropos is the Cutter of the Thread of Life in Greek Mythology. Both represent Death, which pretty much sums up Mother Winter. My theory is that Mother Summer is Lachesis(The Allotter of the Thread of Life ) and Verdandi(The Present). There should also be a third Mother representing Urd (The Past) and Clotho (Spinner of the Thread of Life). I believe she will end up being
    The White God
    . The White God creates Life, Summer preserves it until Winter decides its time to end it.

    See, I disagree with the current standard interpretation of the Fates with regards to the Dresden Files.
    Harry calls Mother Winter Atropos and Skuld; I don't think that it makes sense for another old Crone to be the Mother or the Maiden. I think that Mab is Verdandi (present) and the Winter Lady is Urd (future). Also, Mab is Lachesis and the Winter Lady is Clotho. While the eldest are called the Mothers, I think that it's probably more accurate to call them the Crones; the Mother figure in the Triple Goddess generally represents (among other things) fertility and sexuality; Mother Summer doesn't strike me as being a particularly fertile or sexual being. I think that the missing name for Mother Winter is Morta (a Roman goddess of death). The associated Roman name for Mab would therefore be Decima, and the name for the Winter Lady would be Nona.

    As for the White God, the White God is way, way stronger than anything else in the playing field in the Dresden Files. Uriel could casually annihilate galaxies if he needed to, and he's just one of the servants of the White God.

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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    i don't think this is spoilery as it's all older book discussion:
    agree, at some point harry pontificates that there is baseline power for these beings and that it is magnified/increased/altered based on the number of people that know of them. The White God is known by almost the entire population of the world (billions) and therefore it stands to reason his power level is off the charts.

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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    So I read this over last few days while my wife and I were in Chicago. I didn't even realize how appropriate that was until we were on the plane.

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    EvilOtaku wrote: »
    Derrick wrote: »
    Guys, I really don't think the amulet is important. At all.

    What I *DO* think is very interesting is:
    Mother Summer tells Harry (in probably the most direct way she can) that she and Mother Winter are the same entity. It makes perfect sense that Mab and Titiana are also exact mirrors of each other. My theory is that the Outsider War requires a resolute and ruthless queen devoid of any compassion. To accomplish this, the Mother entity split herself off from her compassion completely, while using it as a bulwark against the viciousness of the war entity taking over all of the World's Creation.

    I did miss something in the books that's nagging at me. Someone took Mother Winter's walking cane, but I can't remember who that might be. Does Ebeneezer have the "Blackstaff" of Winter? I would think that depriving Winter the mobility of it's (prime?) deity would have ramifications on the Outsider War. Perhaps Eb isn't aware of the greater conflict?

    re: The Mothers
    What I find interesting is that when Harry was summoning Mother Winter, he used Skuld and Atropos as two of her names. Now, if Mother Summer is also a Fate, then who is the 3rd?

    I brought up these same 2 points.
    There is likely a 3rd "Mother" figure out there if the names of the Fates belong to the other 2, and they all may be parts of a Gaea type figure.

    Plus the staff/cane Winter is missing, is likely the Blackstaff. Who knows how long its been missing though. The Council may have no idea what the Blackstaff actually is, but it is certainly not a normal staff by any means.
    Aren't the fates typically presented as Maiden, Mother, and Crone, paralleling the Lady, Queen, and Mother relationship of the Fae Courts? Or am I mixing my mythologies here?
    The three Fates are from Greek mythology IIRC.

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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    i think one of the cool things that Cold Days accomplishes is to dispel the notion of parity. There are a few interesting examples of this. Summer and winter are not equal in power. The 'knights' are not designed for the same purpose. I can't remember the other big one but the general idea of 'threes' pops up a lot as well. Three walks-outsiders, 3 ladies of winter/summer, 3 fates, 3 masks (odin, santa, ...).

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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    Completed the first book. Liked it. It felt weirdly unfocused though, a bit short and crammed with lost of stuff while also looking kinda empty. It drops into an established world and then can't decide which side it wants to explore so it explores everything a little and doesn't grab. Which is not immediately a problem, but it takes away from the real plot.
    The villain is mundane and doesn't give the weight needed, you learn he is bad and Harry is going to fuck his shit up but his motivation is like one line about being a loser and going into magic. He seems more the guy to go through to get to the boss than the actual boss himself.

    Does that get better? I like the concepts and characters but I also want more than a "case of the week" thing. (Or if it's case of the week writing I want it to be better. Lots of great detectives have been written like that.)

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    WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Your insides Let me show you themRegistered User regular
    It gets much better. There will be "case of the week" villains for the next handful of books, though they're quite a bit more interesting. After those it all starts to weave together into an overarching plot.

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    JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    It gets much better. There will be "case of the week" villains for the next handful of books, though they're quite a bit more interesting. After those it all starts to weave together into an overarching plot.

    Well that sounds exactly like what I want. Tomorrow I'll probably be buying books. (god I should've bought so many more books in the US. aside from stuff being harder to find here I'm also spending 15 euros on a 10 dollar book, ah well.)

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    Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    The reason why the first guy turned out the way he did is sort of explored in later books, mainly Proven Guilty.

    Butcher tries to explain it in Strom Front but he either hadn't fully fleshed it out or couldn't get it out right.

    The issue becomes a center point of the series after that.

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Yeah, pretty sure Butcher fleshed out/thought up more afterwards.

    Which has me thinking in my re-read (Proven Guilty and onward spoilers):
    What exactly is "black magic"? Dresden starts thinking necromancy may be ok, if he BBQ's someones with fire that's not black magic unless it's got a built in 'You killed a human, oops!' clause, twisting peoples minds seems to be the one big no no, but then untwisting is the same thing in practice. I kind of dislike that entire 'Black magic twists you' angle he added. I suppose this keeps guns around, though!

    Xeddicus on
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    SepahSepah Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Yeah, pretty sure Butcher fleshed out/thought up more afterwards.

    Which has me thinking in my re-read (Proven Guilty and onward spoilers):
    What exactly is "black magic"? Dresden starts thinking necromancy may be ok, if he BBQ's someones with fire that's not black magic unless it's got a built in 'You killed a human, oops!' clause, twisting peoples minds seems to be the one big no no, but then untwisting is the same thing in practice. I kind of dislike that entire 'Black magic twists' you angle he added. I suppose this keeps guns around, though!

    It is rather odd, isn't it.
    What's the difference, after all, between magically paralyzing someone then cutting off their head, and burning them to death with magical fire?

    My guess is that magic, all magic, has a kind of 'equal and opposite reaction' thing going for it. Harry talks about it a little bit, like how he says that using Mind Magic to enforce your will on someone twists your own thinking, making you more and more prone to using your magic to force others to do your bidding.

    Harry, as much as he throws around fire and force, also seems to get burned and beat up a lot.

    Coincidence!? I think not.

    But in a lot of ways, I would guess that 'black magic' is simply illegal applications of magic. White Council says no killing people with magic, no mucking about with people's brains with magic, or we kill you. So now, people who use magic have to keep the collateral damage to an absolute minimum, no fire raining from the sky, no human sacrifice, etc, or risk magic police coming for them.

    Sepah on
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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Regarding the structure of the Dresden Files:

    (I'm not going to spoil this, because no actual plot points will be given out, but if knowing how the books are structured is something you consider a spoiler you might want to skip past this post.)

    First of all, the series is structured to be twenty books that stand alone insomuch as the primary conflict introduced in that specific novel is resolved at the end of the novel. The villains are not always killed at the end of the novel, the villain may be partially successful at the end of the novel, but one way or another the main plot of each specific novel is resolved by the end of that novel. It's fair to say that each stands alone.

    Once the twenty case file books are completed, a Big Apocalyptic Trilogy will supposedly resolve the main story of the series.

    While each of the (planned) twenty case file books tells a story in of itself, there are some plots that extend through them across the series. A character introduced as a minor character in one book might develop into a major character later. A major character might for whatever reason no longer be available to Harry to call upon as a friend/ally/lover/etc. Factions, people, and even artifacts and places that initially seem like allies or enemies might switch roles as the series progresses, sometimes multiple times. Characters grow and age in approximately real time, about a year per book. I think that these is exactly one character whose relationship with Harry has remained on the same terms in every book to date.

    There are (give or take) three major plot lines running through the series; the third, fourth and fifth books do most of the work in setting them up; the first two books are unfortunately just monster of the week, though they were retroactively given more importance later on in the series. There are several dozen minor plotlines that are followed as well, ranging from the relatively mundane (such as the dating lives of minor characters) to more major (such as Harry's long term relationships with some of the more adversarial characters that aren't actively trying to kill him).

    Shadowhope on
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    ImpyrockerImpyrocker Registered User regular
    In response to the fates as fae:
    Why couldn't the third fate be wild? We've already seen two sides of wildfae, like summer and winter, how do we know there isn't a unifying Mother Wild?

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    HawkstoneHawkstone Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. Somewhere outside of BarstowRegistered User regular
    Sepah wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Yeah, pretty sure Butcher fleshed out/thought up more afterwards.

    Which has me thinking in my re-read (Proven Guilty and onward spoilers):
    What exactly is "black magic"? Dresden starts thinking necromancy may be ok, if he BBQ's someones with fire that's not black magic unless it's got a built in 'You killed a human, oops!' clause, twisting peoples minds seems to be the one big no no, but then untwisting is the same thing in practice. I kind of dislike that entire 'Black magic twists' you angle he added. I suppose this keeps guns around, though!

    It is rather odd, isn't it.
    What's the difference, after all, between magically paralyzing someone then cutting off their head, and burning them to death with magical fire?

    My guess is that magic, all magic, has a kind of 'equal and opposite reaction' thing going for it. Harry talks about it a little bit, like how he says that using Mind Magic to enforce your will on someone twists your own thinking, making you more and more prone to using your magic to force others to do your bidding.

    Harry, as much as he throws around fire and force, also seems to get burned and beat up a lot.

    Coincidence!? I think not.

    But in a lot of ways, I would guess that 'black magic' is simply illegal applications of magic. White Council says no killing people with magic, no mucking about with people's brains with magic, or we kill you. So now, people who use magic have to keep the collateral damage to an absolute minimum, no fire raining from the sky, no human sacrifice, etc, or risk magic police coming for them.
    It has always been my opinion that with the exception of mucking about with free will, which is always bad, that intentions mean everything. Necromancy on a million year old Dino to save the world is ok for your Karma...Necromancy on a recently deceased human to kill an innocent is not. The white council pretty clearly goes way over board in what they enforce and dont, calling all things bad regardless of intent. But true black magic, that will tangibly affect you, is governed by laws of a purer morality.

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    jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    Impyrocker wrote: »
    In response to the fates as fae:
    Why couldn't the third fate be wild? We've already seen two sides of wildfae, like summer and winter, how do we know there isn't a unifying Mother Wild?
    I love this idea, BUT...
    ...it was pretty firmly established that wildfae are called towards Summer or Winter in times of war. It seems like that wouldn't be the case if there was a unifying body.

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    LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Re: Fae
    A Mother, a Queen, and a Lady might not be leadership roles, but representational roles for the wild fae. IE; "I speak for my people, but I do not command them"

    Lochiel on
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    warbanwarban Who the Hoof do you think we are? Registered User regular
    Oh before I forget again: My corruption theory. (Bad name I know)
    Toot keeps getting bigger and becomes more mature. Harry is feeding Toot more than pizza. But Harry's influence is changing toot and making him more powerful.

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    ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Maybe instead of "corruption" think of it as "influence"?

    Attention? Harry's ties/bonds/connections to others that has a lasting influence in a variety of tangible ways?

    It'd be funny if that actually came to be 'a thing', since it's a standard "I'm connected to the protagonist" trope of a lot of fiction, so having it be spelt out like that could get really meta.

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    Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Well, he does constantly bitch about everything happening to him, and also everything happening in his city. There's also that prophecy that gets brought up once every 8 books or so then dropped again. He's definitely some kind of chosen one.

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    Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    warban wrote: »
    Oh before I forget again: My corruption theory. (Bad name I know)
    Toot keeps getting bigger and becomes more mature. Harry is feeding Toot more than pizza. But Harry's influence is changing toot and making him more powerful.

    Certainly sounds like he's
    causing people to act against their nature, a la the adversary.

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    see317see317 Registered User regular
    Heh, an interesting quote from Storm Front, considering the events in Cold Days
    ...Santa is a much bigger and more powerful faery then Toot, and I don't know his true name anyway. You'd never see me trying to nab Saint Nick in a magic circle, even if I did. I don't think anyone has stones that big.

    If I had my copy of Cold Days on hand, I'd put another quote here. If you've read the book, failing that I'll put a brief sentence or two and try to remember to edit this post later.
    The part where he declares that he's just shot the Erlking and beaten up St. Nick, and asks if anyone else wants to go a few rounds before he commandeers the wild hunt

    Just kind of made me chuckle to see the power creep in the series. It's pretty perfectly demonstrated by those two quotes.

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    LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    Dresden Files; where power creep is measured by how much of Santa's Ass he can kick

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