What do you mean it doesn't make sense? Do you have a problem with Judaism being passed Matrilineally or that their family doesn't have to stay behind?
It gets confusing because the words "Jew" and "Jewish" are somewhat overloaded in everyday discussion. Since it can refer to practioners of Judaism, those who claim ethnic Jewish heritage, or both, it's not always clear what, exactly, is being referred to. It's not specific to the linked law, just to the use of those terms in general.
As far as I see it its both. You have to have a mother who's jewish, or you need to be a convert.
So it is a religion thing, not a race thing.
Yes, considering Judaism is not a race, it would make sense to note that this is not a race thing.
Actually, I don't see much problem with the Jewish stance that they want control over their nation because it is in line with the goal of creating the nation in the first place.
I don't either; and I also think it's awesome that Arabs who get married to non-Israeli Arabs can't get their spouses to live with them in Israel, but a Jew born in America can live in Israel if he can afford the ticket, because hey, fuck Arabs.
Actually, I don't see much problem with the Jewish stance that they want control over their nation because it is in line with the goal of creating the nation in the first place.
I don't either; and I also think it's awesome that Arabs who get married to non-Israeli Arabs can't get their spouses to live with them in Israel, but a Jew born in America can live in Israel if he can afford the ticket, because hey, fuck Arabs.
Because the only way for someone to immigrate to Israel is via the right of return, right.
:roll:
Its a hell of a lot easier for Jews to go because Israel is a jewish state. Yes, this means that they would want to make sure that the government is mostly made up of Jews, and since Israel is a democracy this extends to the populace. Also, Israel is surrounded by places where arabs live, actually. Really, I'm not kidding, there's a whole region full of countries that are at least as religiously homogenous as Israel, most of them are quite a bit more, to the point where they persecute the other religions rather then just giving preferences to one and ignoring the rest.
And to put an end to the race question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon
Ethiopia is pretty much as far away as you can get from Europe and America as far as culture and standards of living go, but if you're jewish, you can come, and Israel doesn't mind helping you out if you need help moving.
Actually, I don't see much problem with the Jewish stance that they want control over their nation because it is in line with the goal of creating the nation in the first place.
I don't either; and I also think it's awesome that Arabs who get married to non-Israeli Arabs can't get their spouses to live with them in Israel, but a Jew born in America can live in Israel if he can afford the ticket, because hey, fuck Arabs.
Because the only way for someone to immigrate to Israel is via the right of return, right.
:roll:
Its a hell of a lot easier for Jews to go because Israel is a jewish state. Yes, this means that they would want to make sure that the government is mostly made up of Jews, and since Israel is a democracy this extends to the populace. Also, Israel is surrounded by places where arabs live, actually. Really, I'm not kidding, there's a whole region full of countries that are at least as religiously homogenous as Israel, most of them are quite a bit more, to the point where they persecute the other religions rather then just giving preferences to one and ignoring the rest.
And to put an end to the race question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon
Ethiopia is pretty much as far away as you can get from Europe and America as far as culture and standards of living go, but if you're jewish, you can come, and Israel doesn't mind helping you out if you need help moving.
Evander was discussing in terms of Jews as a race, so I was matching nomenclature. The issue is the discriminatory against non-Jews part of Zionism, for whatever you want to label Jews as (race, culture, society, religion), not racism specifically.
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Actually, I don't see much problem with the Jewish stance that they want control over their nation because it is in line with the goal of creating the nation in the first place.
I don't either; and I also think it's awesome that Arabs who get married to non-Israeli Arabs can't get their spouses to live with them in Israel, but a Jew born in America can live in Israel if he can afford the ticket, because hey, fuck Arabs.
Because the only way for someone to immigrate to Israel is via the right of return, right.
:roll:
Its a hell of a lot easier for Jews to go because Israel is a jewish state. Yes, this means that they would want to make sure that the government is mostly made up of Jews, and since Israel is a democracy this extends to the populace. Also, Israel is surrounded by places where arabs live, actually. Really, I'm not kidding, there's a whole region full of countries that are at least as religiously homogenous as Israel, most of them are quite a bit more, to the point where they persecute the other religions rather then just giving preferences to one and ignoring the rest.
And to put an end to the race question. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon
Ethiopia is pretty much as far away as you can get from Europe and America as far as culture and standards of living go, but if you're jewish, you can come, and Israel doesn't mind helping you out if you need help moving.
Evander was discussing in terms of Jews as a race, so I was matching nomenclature. The issue is the discriminatory against non-Jews part of Zionism, for whatever you want to label Jews as (race, culture, society, religion), not racism specifically.
Well then, I'd have to disagree with Evander and note that the racial tenets are in Judaism, and that Judaism by nature is primarily passed through family tradition considering that the only people Jews are allowed to proselytize are other Jews and although we don't prevent people from converting we make damn sure they know what a prospective convert is getting into.
Also, some people might only have had records of the Judaism of a grandparent due to the holocaust, removing them from their villages and only being documented on Nazi records which the Zionist movement weren't allowed to get a hold of.
There's the case of Reform and Conservative forms of Judaism as well, but thats a whole different bag of worms.
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Uh, I don't understand the problem. Its sort of the point, and why a one state solution runs at single digit popularity among Israeli's.
I don't have a problem with a country of one religion, as long as they aren't persecuting against another people based on their religion. I don't think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based on religion, instead I think its based on national ambitions, crazy people, water, and land.
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
It's not a surprise.
However, I don't approve of a country that has discrimination as part of its founding principle and doctrine for why they have a right to exist. A Zionist state exists to protect a group from discrimination and persecution by perpetuating discrimination and persecution against other groups. It's a double-standard and a shitty thing to base a country on.
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Uh, I don't understand the problem. Its sort of the point, and why a one state solution runs at single digit popularity among Israeli's.
I don't have a problem with a country of one religion, as long as they aren't persecuting against another people based on their religion. I don't think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based on religion, instead I think its based on national ambitions, crazy people, water, and land.
Israel has laws that apply specifically to only one ethnicity. That's racist. I don't see how you can think it's anything else. I mean, how would you feel if in America, only Black people had compulsory military service. If your black, you gotta join the army. But if your white or asian, not so much. It's your choice. Is that racist?
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Uh, I don't understand the problem. Its sort of the point, and why a one state solution runs at single digit popularity among Israeli's.
I don't have a problem with a country of one religion, as long as they aren't persecuting against another people based on their religion. I don't think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based on religion, instead I think its based on national ambitions, crazy people, water, and land.
Israel has laws that apply specifically to only one ethnicity. That's racist. I don't see how you can think it's anything else. I mean, how would you feel if in America, only Black people had compulsory military service. If your black, you gotta join the army. But if your white or asian, not so much. It's your choice. Is that racist?
That seems to be more of a negative. You aren't banned from the army if you're muslim, you just don't have to go. Of course, the army is nice, so you want to go there, and you have to jump through some hoops, but in no way is an Israeli citizen banned from the army.
I think that your analogy would make more sense if you got some really nice benefits after leaving the army, to the point where people would want to join.
Some of the more serious issues revolve around how Orthodox Jews get the benefits anyway while some sect of another religion that banned army service wouldn't get the handouts. But the reason for that is because Orthodox Jews are essentially the soul of Israel, and if we start breaking down Judaism for the sake of the army then there's no Jewish state anymore.
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Uh, I don't understand the problem. Its sort of the point, and why a one state solution runs at single digit popularity among Israeli's.
I don't have a problem with a country of one religion, as long as they aren't persecuting against another people based on their religion. I don't think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based on religion, instead I think its based on national ambitions, crazy people, water, and land.
Israel has laws that apply specifically to only one ethnicity. That's racist. I don't see how you can think it's anything else. I mean, how would you feel if in America, only Black people had compulsory military service. If your black, you gotta join the army. But if your white or asian, not so much. It's your choice. Is that racist?
I am amused by your example because, in Israel, all Jews must join the Army (with some exception made for the ultra-orthodox, who have their time deffered to civil service) but Israeli Palestinians are given a choice of whether or not to join.
So, are you saying that Israel treats Jews like America treats black people?
Saying it is a complicated issue that people struggle with does not address the argument that racism is endemic to Zionism.
Not quite.
It is endemic of a Zionist democracy, and ONLY in the one manner that it specifically exhibits in in Israel, that of how to deal with population balances.
Zionism requires that Jews be in control of Jews. Unless you want to say that is racist because it denies other peoples the right to be in control of Jews, the racism exists in the implimentation, and it's intersection with democratic equality, not in Zionism itself.
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Saying it is a complicated issue that people struggle with does not address the argument that racism is endemic to Zionism.
Not quite.
It is endemic of a Zionist democracy, and ONLY in the one manner that it specifically exhibits in in Israel, that of how to deal with population balances.
Zionism requires that Jews be in control of Jews. Unless you want to say that is racist because it denies other peoples the right to be in control of Jews, the racism exists in the implimentation, and it's intersection with democratic equality, not in Zionism itself.
Saying it is a complicated issue that people struggle with does not address the argument that racism is endemic to Zionism.
Not quite.
It is endemic of a Zionist democracy, and ONLY in the one manner that it specifically exhibits in in Israel, that of how to deal with population balances.
Zionism requires that Jews be in control of Jews. Unless you want to say that is racist because it denies other peoples the right to be in control of Jews, the racism exists in the implimentation, and it's intersection with democratic equality, not in Zionism itself.
Other forms of government would have the same issue with discrimination, but would expand the set of people being discriminated against to include Jews as well.
The problem is that if you can't come up with even a theorectical situation in where Zionism can be applied without discriminating against non-Jews, it's a discriminatory policy. It most certainly is as it is applied in Israel.
[QUOChoosing not to tear down houses doesn't mean that one chooses to do nothing at all. There are other options.
The problem is, what are those other options?
I've seen a lot of criticism of Israel in this thread, and much of it I agree with. The thing is, though, I have seen very little in the way of solutions. Of course, one needn't have a solution to have the "right" to comment, or anything, but when we have THIS MUCH criticism without any solutions at all, it stops being a discussion, and just becomes a list of grievances that no one has any idea what to do anything about.
Yeah, Israel does a lot of bad stuff. So does Palestine. What the hell is anyone supposed to do in order to solve this?
If I can make ANY suggestion at all about the direction of this thread, let's stop playing the game of listing grievences (which only serves to distract from the larger situation as a whole) and start talking about the big picture, and what we all think might fix it overall.
If you ask me, that will prove a lot more meaningful than everyone agreeing that bulldozing a person is bad. I don't think anyone here really thinks that bulldozing some one is good. Essentially it just turns into two sides of two different discussions, with one side arguing that Israel is doing bad things, with no one opposing them, and one side arguing that Israel is doing things as effectively as they can, with no one opposing them.
It's like the whole pro-life vs. pro-choice discrepency. Two equally vehiment sides each arguing one side of seperate arguments; one idealistically and one pragmatically.
Saying it is a complicated issue that people struggle with does not address the argument that racism is endemic to Zionism.
Not quite.
It is endemic of a Zionist democracy, and ONLY in the one manner that it specifically exhibits in in Israel, that of how to deal with population balances.
Zionism requires that Jews be in control of Jews. Unless you want to say that is racist because it denies other peoples the right to be in control of Jews, the racism exists in the implimentation, and it's intersection with democratic equality, not in Zionism itself.
Other forms of government would have the same issue with discrimination, but would expand the set of people being discriminated against to include Jews as well.
The problem is that if you can't come up with even a theorectical situation in where Zionism can be applied without discriminating against non-Jews, it's a discriminatory policy. It most certainly is as it is applied in Israel.
The theoretical situation is that Jews live in a country that no one else wants to live in. There you go.
The problem is that you are condeming an entire nation for a single piece of discrimination that they themselves are uncomfortable with, but have found as the least discriminatory of their options.
I'm sorry, but we don't live in a perfect world. Some discrimination is going to happen no matter what. I guess what is important to me is the purpose behind the discrimination, which, in this case, is to protect the dual tennants on which Israel is founded, one of which being Zionism, which you may not care about, but the other of which being full equality for citizens, which I believe we all care about here. RoR is a single piece of discrimination that exists inorder to protect a greater equality.
Saying it is a complicated issue that people struggle with does not address the argument that racism is endemic to Zionism.
Not quite.
It is endemic of a Zionist democracy, and ONLY in the one manner that it specifically exhibits in in Israel, that of how to deal with population balances.
Zionism requires that Jews be in control of Jews. Unless you want to say that is racist because it denies other peoples the right to be in control of Jews, the racism exists in the implimentation, and it's intersection with democratic equality, not in Zionism itself.
Also, themselves if they are not Jewish.
NO!!!!
Zionism doesn't say that Jews should control everyone. Zionism says that Jews should control Jews.
Seriously, sometimes I think all of you would be happier if Israel simply closed its borders ENTIRELY to non-Jews.
[QUOChoosing not to tear down houses doesn't mean that one chooses to do nothing at all. There are other options.
The problem is, what are those other options?
I've seen a lot of criticism of Israel in this thread, and much of it I agree with. The thing is, though, I have seen very little in the way of solutions. Of course, one needn't have a solution to have the "right" to comment, or anything, but when we have THIS MUCH criticism without any solutions at all, it stops being a discussion, and just becomes a list of grievances that no one has any idea what to do anything about.
Yeah, Israel does a lot of bad stuff. So does Palestine. What the hell is anyone supposed to do in order to solve this?
If I can make ANY suggestion at all about the direction of this thread, let's stop playing the game of listing grievences (which only serves to distract from the larger situation as a whole) and start talking about the big picture, and what we all think might fix it overall.
If you ask me, that will prove a lot more meaningful than everyone agreeing that bulldozing a person is bad. I don't think anyone here really thinks that bulldozing some one is good. Essentially it just turns into two sides of two different discussions, with one side arguing that Israel is doing bad things, with no one opposing them, and one side arguing that Israel is doing things as effectively as they can, with no one opposing them.
It's like the whole pro-life vs. pro-choice discrepency. Two equally vehiment sides each arguing one side of seperate arguments; one idealistically and one pragmatically.
Your solution seems to be "Cross fingers and hope that Palestinians stop being retarded."
Its not the best.
How about this.
Israel stops trying to settle Palestinian land, eliminates settlements that aren't full cities (say, pop. greater than 100,000. Actually, give those settlements to the Palestinians.
Start caring about civilian casualties, even when you're going after terrorists it really doesn't help if your kill ratio is 50:1 in favor of civilian casualties.
Build a security wall (even a border wall) along the green line, fork over all the wall that hasn't been built on the green line to the Palestinians to do as they please.
Start letting the Palestinians have guns (Small arms fire isn't getting through a wall, they need guns to police themselves, its mostly hurting Palestinians who can't get them by illegal means AKA not terrorists.
Then, and only then, do we cross our fingers and hope that they stop being retarded.
Israel is JUST LIKE any other democratic country out there, EXCEPT they have an immigration express-lane for Jews.
Because if they didn't, their founding tenet, would require even more racist legislation. That is not a detail to be glossed over. That is precisely how they are different from other democracies.
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Would you prefer if it were a country where a certain minority was given all of the power, and everyone else was a second hand citizen?
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Uh, I don't understand the problem. Its sort of the point, and why a one state solution runs at single digit popularity among Israeli's.
I don't have a problem with a country of one religion, as long as they aren't persecuting against another people based on their religion. I don't think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based on religion, instead I think its based on national ambitions, crazy people, water, and land.
Seriously.
It amazes me how many of the people who are up in arms over Israel don't also run around decrying all of the Arab nations which enforce Islamic laws on their inhabitants, or the Vatican, which is considered its own country, etc.
Israel is JUST LIKE any other democratic country out there, EXCEPT they have an immigration express-lane for Jews.
Because if they didn't, their founding tenet, would require even more racist legislation. That is not a detail to be glossed over. That is precisely how they are different from other democracies.
AAAAAAAGH, UNNECESSARY COMMAS, AAAAAAAGH!!!!
Also, whats the problem with this? Who's negatively affected if Israel is a state made up of Jews, as Zionism intended it to be? The problem is that they're screwing with other people outside their borders, but Zionism doesn't have to mean that the state extends from the river to the sea, just that there is a jewish state.
The theoretical situation is that Jews live in a country that no one else wants to live in. There you go.
That doesn't make Zionism less discriminatory because it falls apart the second someone wants to live there. The theoretical problem isn't addressed adequately by your solution and fails on the most basic of inspections.
The problem is that you are condeming an entire nation for a single piece of discrimination that they themselves are uncomfortable with, but have found as the least discriminatory of their options.
Two things. First, I'm not condeming Israel, I'm condeming Zionism and Israel's embrace of Zionism.
Second, I don't care how bad they feel about. It's still discriminatory and a bad thing to base your society on.
I'm sorry, but we don't live in a perfect world. Some discrimination is going to happen no matter what. I guess what is important to me is the purpose behind the discrimination, which, in this case, is to protect the dual tennants on which Israel is founded, one of which being Zionism, which you may not care about, but the other of which being full equality for citizens, which I believe we all care about here. RoR is a single piece of discrimination that exists inorder to protect a greater equality.
Yes, we don't live in a perfect world and Zionism is not helping. That's the whole point.
That is probably in large part because the Vatican doesn't spend a lot of time sending tanks to crush Rome.
And, uh, I don't think that many people are in love with Iran around here. We see them a pretty evil. But our country isn't giving them billions of dollars for nothing. And they are not considered above reproach by a large segment of Western population the way Israel is. Israel largely gets a free pass for its crimes. That's the problem we have. Or at least the one I have.
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Uh, I don't understand the problem. Its sort of the point, and why a one state solution runs at single digit popularity among Israeli's.
I don't have a problem with a country of one religion, as long as they aren't persecuting against another people based on their religion. I don't think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based on religion, instead I think its based on national ambitions, crazy people, water, and land.
Seriously.
It amazes me how many of the people who are up in arms over Israel don't also run around decrying all of the Arab nations which enforce Islamic laws on their inhabitants, or the Vatican, which is considered its own country, etc.
We're giving them 3 billion a year, and covering their asses at the UN, and doing many things that we wouldn't do for anyone else, human rights abuser or not.
Israel is JUST LIKE any other democratic country out there, EXCEPT they have an immigration express-lane for Jews.
Because if they didn't, their founding tenet, would require even more racist legislation. That is not a detail to be glossed over. That is precisely how they are different from other democracies.
You're confusing cause and effect here.
It is not that Zionism is discriminatory, it is that a Zionist democracy is discriminatory UNLESS you put something in place to assist in the maintainance of a Jewish majority.
Zionism isn't about gaining control of others, it is about removing others from being in control of the self.
You seem so admantly anti-Zionist, so I'll ask you a question. If Zionism is so very unwholesome, then what alternatve would you recommend for ensuring the continued safety of the Jewish people?
The problem is that they're screwing with other people outside their borders, but Zionism doesn't have to mean that the state extends from the river to the sea, just that there is a jewish state.
Again, we are discussing Israel as it exists in reality, not the mythical Zionist land of happy flowers where everyone is happy.
Israel is JUST LIKE any other democratic country out there, EXCEPT they have an immigration express-lane for Jews.
Because if they didn't, their founding tenet, would require even more racist legislation. That is not a detail to be glossed over. That is precisely how they are different from other democracies.
AAAAAAAGH, UNNECESSARY COMMAS, AAAAAAAGH!!!!
Also, whats the problem with this? Who's negatively affected if Israel is a state made up of Jews, as Zionism intended it to be? The problem is that they're screwing with other people outside their borders, but Zionism doesn't have to mean that the state extends from the river to the sea, just that there is a jewish state.
There are several problems with it, but I'm avoiding going into those too much until we can reach a consensus on whether or not Zionism is inherently discriminatory. Once we reach agreement on that, there's discussion to be had on whether that is a bad thing (I think it is, as I've stated).
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Uh, I don't understand the problem. Its sort of the point, and why a one state solution runs at single digit popularity among Israeli's.
I don't have a problem with a country of one religion, as long as they aren't persecuting against another people based on their religion. I don't think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based on religion, instead I think its based on national ambitions, crazy people, water, and land.
Seriously.
It amazes me how many of the people who are up in arms over Israel don't also run around decrying all of the Arab nations which enforce Islamic laws on their inhabitants, or the Vatican, which is considered its own country, etc.
We're giving them 3 billion a year, and covering their asses at the UN, and doing many things that we wouldn't do for anyone else, human rights abuser or not.
Ummm...
Have you looked at how much we give to certain other nations? Israel isn't the only nation we give money to.
And before you go off about ammounts, honestly, we should hold the same standards for ANY country we give money to, regardless of ammount.
And, regaardless of that, I don't believe that everyone here is American anyway.
Israel is JUST LIKE any other democratic country out there, EXCEPT they have an immigration express-lane for Jews.
Because if they didn't, their founding tenet, would require even more racist legislation. That is not a detail to be glossed over. That is precisely how they are different from other democracies.
AAAAAAAGH, UNNECESSARY COMMAS, AAAAAAAGH!!!!
Also, whats the problem with this? Who's negatively affected if Israel is a state made up of Jews, as Zionism intended it to be? The problem is that they're screwing with other people outside their borders, but Zionism doesn't have to mean that the state extends from the river to the sea, just that there is a jewish state.
There are several problems with it, but I'm avoiding going into those too much until we can reach a consensus on whether or not Zionism is inherently discriminatory. Once we reach agreement on that, there's discussion to be had on whether that is a bad thing (I think it is, as I've stated).
If THAT is what you want, then how about we just go by the UN's decisions, so we can quit with all of the semantics and leading questions?
because the purpose of the right of return to to PROTECT the equallity of all Jewish of the citizens of Israel.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Uh, I don't understand the problem. Its sort of the point, and why a one state solution runs at single digit popularity among Israeli's.
I don't have a problem with a country of one religion, as long as they aren't persecuting against another people based on their religion. I don't think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based on religion, instead I think its based on national ambitions, crazy people, water, and land.
Seriously.
It amazes me how many of the people who are up in arms over Israel don't also run around decrying all of the Arab nations which enforce Islamic laws on their inhabitants, or the Vatican, which is considered its own country, etc.
We're giving them 3 billion a year, and covering their asses at the UN, and doing many things that we wouldn't do for anyone else, human rights abuser or not.
Ummm...
Have you looked at how much we give to certain other nations? Israel isn't the only nation we give money to.
And before you go off about ammounts, honestly, we should hold the same standards for ANY country we give money to, regardless of ammount.
And, regaardless of that, I don't believe that everyone here is American anyway.
They're 30% of our foreign aid budget, and they could buy the guns themselves if they wanted to, they're the 16th richest country in the world.
That is probably in large part because the Vatican doesn't spend a lot of time sending tanks to crush Rome.
And, uh, I don't think that many people are in love with Iran around here. We see them a pretty evil. But our country isn't giving them billions of dollars for nothing. And they are not considered above reproach by a large segment of Western population the way Israel is. Israel largely gets a free pass for its crimes. That's the problem we have. Or at least the one I have.
So your problem with Israel is what they do to the Palestinians? Okay, that's fair.
So, why not discuss what they are doing to the Palestinians, instead of arguing about their citizenship requirements? If you have a realistic argument why are you wasting time condemming them for something that is inconsequential to your actual issue.
Israel is JUST LIKE any other democratic country out there, EXCEPT they have an immigration express-lane for Jews.
Because if they didn't, their founding tenet, would require even more racist legislation. That is not a detail to be glossed over. That is precisely how they are different from other democracies.
You're confusing cause and effect here.
It is not that Zionism is discriminatory, it is that a Zionist democracy is discriminatory UNLESS you put something in place to assist in the maintainance of a Jewish majority.
A policy to prevent enough non-Jewish people to immigrate to Israel to upset the balance is a discriminatory government policy implemented by a democracy. Is it the least discriminatory policy? Possibly. It does not mean that it's not discriminatory however.
You seem so admantly anti-Zionist, so I'll ask you a question. If Zionism is so very unwholesome, then what alternatve would you recommend for ensuring the continued safety of the Jewish people?
This is besides the point. We're discussing Zionism, not the Dagrabbit Plan for Preserving the Jewish People. I'd rather focus on that for right now.
Posts
Yes, considering Judaism is not a race, it would make sense to note that this is not a race thing.
I don't either; and I also think it's awesome that Arabs who get married to non-Israeli Arabs can't get their spouses to live with them in Israel, but a Jew born in America can live in Israel if he can afford the ticket, because hey, fuck Arabs.
Because the only way for someone to immigrate to Israel is via the right of return, right.
:roll:
Its a hell of a lot easier for Jews to go because Israel is a jewish state. Yes, this means that they would want to make sure that the government is mostly made up of Jews, and since Israel is a democracy this extends to the populace. Also, Israel is surrounded by places where arabs live, actually. Really, I'm not kidding, there's a whole region full of countries that are at least as religiously homogenous as Israel, most of them are quite a bit more, to the point where they persecute the other religions rather then just giving preferences to one and ignoring the rest.
And to put an end to the race question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Moses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Solomon
Ethiopia is pretty much as far away as you can get from Europe and America as far as culture and standards of living go, but if you're jewish, you can come, and Israel doesn't mind helping you out if you need help moving.
Evander was discussing in terms of Jews as a race, so I was matching nomenclature. The issue is the discriminatory against non-Jews part of Zionism, for whatever you want to label Jews as (race, culture, society, religion), not racism specifically.
Is it really a surprise to you all that Israel prefers Jews? Yeah, there's an institutional preference for Jews that extends pretty much throughout the country, which makes quite a bit of sense considering that it was made for jews, by jews. No one is going to bother you if you happen to not be Jewish, but if Israel didn't have the right of return or give minor preferences to Jews, then it would eventually just slide into a majority non-jewish state, and there really wouldn't be any point for Israel's existence.
So your saying that Israel is a country that's determined to maintain a majority of one ethnicity? Wow, that's so much better.
Well then, I'd have to disagree with Evander and note that the racial tenets are in Judaism, and that Judaism by nature is primarily passed through family tradition considering that the only people Jews are allowed to proselytize are other Jews and although we don't prevent people from converting we make damn sure they know what a prospective convert is getting into.
Also, some people might only have had records of the Judaism of a grandparent due to the holocaust, removing them from their villages and only being documented on Nazi records which the Zionist movement weren't allowed to get a hold of.
There's the case of Reform and Conservative forms of Judaism as well, but thats a whole different bag of worms.
Uh, I don't understand the problem. Its sort of the point, and why a one state solution runs at single digit popularity among Israeli's.
I don't have a problem with a country of one religion, as long as they aren't persecuting against another people based on their religion. I don't think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based on religion, instead I think its based on national ambitions, crazy people, water, and land.
It's not a surprise.
However, I don't approve of a country that has discrimination as part of its founding principle and doctrine for why they have a right to exist. A Zionist state exists to protect a group from discrimination and persecution by perpetuating discrimination and persecution against other groups. It's a double-standard and a shitty thing to base a country on.
Israel has laws that apply specifically to only one ethnicity. That's racist. I don't see how you can think it's anything else. I mean, how would you feel if in America, only Black people had compulsory military service. If your black, you gotta join the army. But if your white or asian, not so much. It's your choice. Is that racist?
That seems to be more of a negative. You aren't banned from the army if you're muslim, you just don't have to go. Of course, the army is nice, so you want to go there, and you have to jump through some hoops, but in no way is an Israeli citizen banned from the army.
I think that your analogy would make more sense if you got some really nice benefits after leaving the army, to the point where people would want to join.
Some of the more serious issues revolve around how Orthodox Jews get the benefits anyway while some sect of another religion that banned army service wouldn't get the handouts. But the reason for that is because Orthodox Jews are essentially the soul of Israel, and if we start breaking down Judaism for the sake of the army then there's no Jewish state anymore.
I am amused by your example because, in Israel, all Jews must join the Army (with some exception made for the ultra-orthodox, who have their time deffered to civil service) but Israeli Palestinians are given a choice of whether or not to join.
So, are you saying that Israel treats Jews like America treats black people?
Not quite.
It is endemic of a Zionist democracy, and ONLY in the one manner that it specifically exhibits in in Israel, that of how to deal with population balances.
Zionism requires that Jews be in control of Jews. Unless you want to say that is racist because it denies other peoples the right to be in control of Jews, the racism exists in the implimentation, and it's intersection with democratic equality, not in Zionism itself.
I'm taking a page out of Sony's playbook, and limitting supply.
I mean, if I copy Sony's tactics, nothing can go wrong, right?
Other forms of government would have the same issue with discrimination, but would expand the set of people being discriminated against to include Jews as well.
The problem is that if you can't come up with even a theorectical situation in where Zionism can be applied without discriminating against non-Jews, it's a discriminatory policy. It most certainly is as it is applied in Israel.
The problem is, what are those other options?
I've seen a lot of criticism of Israel in this thread, and much of it I agree with. The thing is, though, I have seen very little in the way of solutions. Of course, one needn't have a solution to have the "right" to comment, or anything, but when we have THIS MUCH criticism without any solutions at all, it stops being a discussion, and just becomes a list of grievances that no one has any idea what to do anything about.
Yeah, Israel does a lot of bad stuff. So does Palestine. What the hell is anyone supposed to do in order to solve this?
If I can make ANY suggestion at all about the direction of this thread, let's stop playing the game of listing grievences (which only serves to distract from the larger situation as a whole) and start talking about the big picture, and what we all think might fix it overall.
If you ask me, that will prove a lot more meaningful than everyone agreeing that bulldozing a person is bad. I don't think anyone here really thinks that bulldozing some one is good. Essentially it just turns into two sides of two different discussions, with one side arguing that Israel is doing bad things, with no one opposing them, and one side arguing that Israel is doing things as effectively as they can, with no one opposing them.
It's like the whole pro-life vs. pro-choice discrepency. Two equally vehiment sides each arguing one side of seperate arguments; one idealistically and one pragmatically.
The theoretical situation is that Jews live in a country that no one else wants to live in. There you go.
The problem is that you are condeming an entire nation for a single piece of discrimination that they themselves are uncomfortable with, but have found as the least discriminatory of their options.
I'm sorry, but we don't live in a perfect world. Some discrimination is going to happen no matter what. I guess what is important to me is the purpose behind the discrimination, which, in this case, is to protect the dual tennants on which Israel is founded, one of which being Zionism, which you may not care about, but the other of which being full equality for citizens, which I believe we all care about here. RoR is a single piece of discrimination that exists inorder to protect a greater equality.
See, this is the part where you are ENTIRELY wrong.
NO!!!!
Zionism doesn't say that Jews should control everyone. Zionism says that Jews should control Jews.
Seriously, sometimes I think all of you would be happier if Israel simply closed its borders ENTIRELY to non-Jews.
How many other governments in the world protect the rights of non-citizens as vehimnetly as they protect those of citizens?
Israel is JUST LIKE any other democratic country out there, EXCEPT they have an immigration express-lane for Jews.
Your solution seems to be "Cross fingers and hope that Palestinians stop being retarded."
Its not the best.
How about this.
Israel stops trying to settle Palestinian land, eliminates settlements that aren't full cities (say, pop. greater than 100,000. Actually, give those settlements to the Palestinians.
Start caring about civilian casualties, even when you're going after terrorists it really doesn't help if your kill ratio is 50:1 in favor of civilian casualties.
Build a security wall (even a border wall) along the green line, fork over all the wall that hasn't been built on the green line to the Palestinians to do as they please.
Start letting the Palestinians have guns (Small arms fire isn't getting through a wall, they need guns to police themselves, its mostly hurting Palestinians who can't get them by illegal means AKA not terrorists.
Then, and only then, do we cross our fingers and hope that they stop being retarded.
Because if they didn't, their founding tenet, would require even more racist legislation. That is not a detail to be glossed over. That is precisely how they are different from other democracies.
Would you prefer if it were a country where a certain minority was given all of the power, and everyone else was a second hand citizen?
Seriously.
It amazes me how many of the people who are up in arms over Israel don't also run around decrying all of the Arab nations which enforce Islamic laws on their inhabitants, or the Vatican, which is considered its own country, etc.
AAAAAAAGH, UNNECESSARY COMMAS, AAAAAAAGH!!!!
Also, whats the problem with this? Who's negatively affected if Israel is a state made up of Jews, as Zionism intended it to be? The problem is that they're screwing with other people outside their borders, but Zionism doesn't have to mean that the state extends from the river to the sea, just that there is a jewish state.
That doesn't make Zionism less discriminatory because it falls apart the second someone wants to live there. The theoretical problem isn't addressed adequately by your solution and fails on the most basic of inspections.
Two things. First, I'm not condeming Israel, I'm condeming Zionism and Israel's embrace of Zionism.
Second, I don't care how bad they feel about. It's still discriminatory and a bad thing to base your society on.
Yes, we don't live in a perfect world and Zionism is not helping. That's the whole point.
And, uh, I don't think that many people are in love with Iran around here. We see them a pretty evil. But our country isn't giving them billions of dollars for nothing. And they are not considered above reproach by a large segment of Western population the way Israel is. Israel largely gets a free pass for its crimes. That's the problem we have. Or at least the one I have.
We're giving them 3 billion a year, and covering their asses at the UN, and doing many things that we wouldn't do for anyone else, human rights abuser or not.
You're confusing cause and effect here.
It is not that Zionism is discriminatory, it is that a Zionist democracy is discriminatory UNLESS you put something in place to assist in the maintainance of a Jewish majority.
Zionism isn't about gaining control of others, it is about removing others from being in control of the self.
You seem so admantly anti-Zionist, so I'll ask you a question. If Zionism is so very unwholesome, then what alternatve would you recommend for ensuring the continued safety of the Jewish people?
Edit: or maybe we aren't anymore.
There are several problems with it, but I'm avoiding going into those too much until we can reach a consensus on whether or not Zionism is inherently discriminatory. Once we reach agreement on that, there's discussion to be had on whether that is a bad thing (I think it is, as I've stated).
Ummm...
Have you looked at how much we give to certain other nations? Israel isn't the only nation we give money to.
And before you go off about ammounts, honestly, we should hold the same standards for ANY country we give money to, regardless of ammount.
And, regaardless of that, I don't believe that everyone here is American anyway.
If THAT is what you want, then how about we just go by the UN's decisions, so we can quit with all of the semantics and leading questions?
They're 30% of our foreign aid budget, and they could buy the guns themselves if they wanted to, they're the 16th richest country in the world.
So your problem with Israel is what they do to the Palestinians? Okay, that's fair.
So, why not discuss what they are doing to the Palestinians, instead of arguing about their citizenship requirements? If you have a realistic argument why are you wasting time condemming them for something that is inconsequential to your actual issue.
A policy to prevent enough non-Jewish people to immigrate to Israel to upset the balance is a discriminatory government policy implemented by a democracy. Is it the least discriminatory policy? Possibly. It does not mean that it's not discriminatory however.
This is besides the point. We're discussing Zionism, not the Dagrabbit Plan for Preserving the Jewish People. I'd rather focus on that for right now.
http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=753&CategoryId=4