Is there a difference between a self-help book and a how-to guide? Some of these things straddle the line and, if it doesn't have 'For Dummies' in the title, I can't tell anymore. For example, the old 70s version of The Joy of Sex. Sold millions of copies back in the day. Is that self-improvement or how-to?
And apparently it is somehow worthy of pity or even contempt to look for it in self-help books.
really, yes. People shouldn't need to be told those things.
Reading a different perspective on dealing with a problem you might have can be an eye opener. But only utilizing those books as opposed to using common sense and people in your life who have real world experience can definitely hurt.
the formula for a self-help book is pretty distinct. Rewrapping the bleeding obvious in a nice thick coating of cliche, and promising the world for one easy payment. They're very distinct from books about improving x skill, which offer actual advice and don't claim to be revolutionary. Put a book on, say, communication skills or exercise next to "men are from mars" or whatever and there's a pretty obvious set of differences.
honestly, one of the best not-actually-self-help books I've read was called What should I do with my life?, and was just one dude talking about a bunch of awesome people he'd met. No expectation of epiphany, just a lot of really interesting and affirming/comforting stuff.
I think painting all "self-help" books with the same brush is a bad idea. Personally, there are two books I read almost annually: Dale Carnegie's [in]famous How to Win Friends and Influence People, and Suzette Elgin's Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense. I can say with absolute certainty that there have been friends I've kept, and workplace "situations" I've survived, only because of these two books.
Now, you could certainly boil down everything in these books into pretty straightforward concepts: treat other people as if they are important, listen when other people talk, encourage others, criticize people in one-on-ones instead of in meetings, etc. I mean, anyone who's not an asshole wants to do that stuff, right? That doesn't mean some of us (like me) don't need reminders from time to time.
Now, personally, 7 Habits did nothing for me. But not every book you read is going to be your style, and nobody's claiming that every self-help book you read is going to be some kind of infallible life-changing tome of wisdom.
Vrtra Theory on
Are you a Software Engineer living in Seattle? HBO is hiring, message me.
But not every book you read is going to be your style, and nobody's claiming that every self-help book you read is going to be some kind of infallible life-changing tome of wisdom.
Except, y'know, the back covers of the books themselves, and sometimes the introductions.
But not every book you read is going to be your style, and nobody's claiming that every self-help book you read is going to be some kind of infallible life-changing tome of wisdom.
Except, y'know, the back covers of the books themselves, and sometimes the introductions.
Well, I guess I don't take issue with an author attempting to market the book itself. Are we holding these books to different standards than every other product out there? My Calculus reference textbook said right on the back, "The only Calculus book you'll ever need - guaranteed! This book is one of the best books available on the market, whether you're an experienced mathematician or a layman learning for the first time."
Not disagreeing with your point, necessarily, but I'm not sure the fact that all marketing is bullshit casts a worse light on self-help books than it does on any other product.
Vrtra Theory on
Are you a Software Engineer living in Seattle? HBO is hiring, message me.
But not every book you read is going to be your style, and nobody's claiming that every self-help book you read is going to be some kind of infallible life-changing tome of wisdom.
Except, y'know, the back covers of the books themselves, and sometimes the introductions.
Well, I guess I don't take issue with an author attempting to market the book itself. Are we holding these books to different standards than every other product out there? My Calculus reference textbook said right on the back, "The only Calculus book you'll ever need - guaranteed! This book is one of the best books available on the market, whether you're an experienced mathematician or a layman learning for the first time."
Not disagreeing with your point, necessarily, but I'm not sure the fact that all marketing is bullshit casts a worse light on self-help books than it does on any other product.
There's a subtle difference between a book that claims to tell you how to do calculus and a book that claims to be able to fix your life.
My school had a motivational speaker today. He was some black guy from Louisiana. He was trying to promote taking the initiative to get into a good college and get a good education so that you could be successful in life. His way of doing this was by telling, for an hour, his entire life story, which basically went something like this:
I don't care about grades, all I want to do is be in the NBA.
Oh shit, I fucked up my shoulder and can't ever play basketball professionally.
I took the SAT and got an 840/1600 and thought it was an 84%.
I somehow managed to get into college anyway, and eventually got a Ph.D.
So, his way of telling us to not screw around is by telling us how he was stupid as a child, screwed around, and eventually succeeded anyway. Thanks.
Also, at the beginning of the speech, he talked about how Indian kids are vying for our jobs and we need to be competitive. Right after that, he told us how lions kill baby cheetahs to stop competition.
the formula for a self-help book is pretty distinct. Rewrapping the bleeding obvious in a nice thick coating of cliche, and promising the world for one easy payment. They're very distinct from books about improving x skill, which offer actual advice and don't claim to be revolutionary.
Actually, not really. There are a lot of "teaching x skill" books out there that claim to be the best and most effective. Some even say shit like, "learn x in y hours!" Yeah, that's not marketing at all. :roll:
honestly, one of the best not-actually-self-help books I've read was called What should I do with my life?, and was just one dude talking about a bunch of awesome people he'd met. No expectation of epiphany, just a lot of really interesting and affirming/comforting stuff.
The bolded part. Yes. If you're looking for affirmation and comfort, you won't find it in self-help books, as most of them challenge you to go out of your comfort zone and actually change for the better, rather than "oh, no worries, you're fine the way you are" even though you may not be fine.
But not every book you read is going to be your style, and nobody's claiming that every self-help book you read is going to be some kind of infallible life-changing tome of wisdom.
Except, y'know, the back covers of the books themselves, and sometimes the introductions.
If person A is buying self-help book B because they honestly believe the marketing and they expect it to change their lives, the problem isn't with the book, it's with the person.
You can get something from every book out there, regardless of topic, its contents, or the way it is marketed. Just because the book makes grandiose claims about what it's going to accomplish doesn't mean one should dismiss it right away.
And apparently it is somehow worthy of pity or even contempt to look for it in self-help books.
really, yes. People shouldn't need to be told those things.
How judgmental of you. But that's nothing new.
Like I said, a lot of self-help stuff may be common sense. But I would rather pay 20 bucks for a book and learn the stuff - from a perspective different than mine - in several hours rather than wait for months or years to figure it out on my own.
If person A is buying self-help book B because they honestly believe the marketing and they expect it to change their lives, the problem isn't with the book, it's with the person.
That only idiots buy snake oil does not make the charlatans selling it immune from criticism. Blame is not a zero-sum game, especially not when you're blaming the victim.
Like I said, a lot of self-help stuff may be common sense. But I would rather pay 20 bucks for a book and learn the stuff - from a perspective different than mine - in several hours rather than wait for months or years to figure it out on my own.
It shouldn't take months or years to figure out common sense on your own. That's why it's called common sense.
In any case, a lot of these books are common sense, but often that common sense is the candy coating around a pill of pure bullshit.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
edited September 2007
Hey ege what EXCUSE will you use if I ask you if you copied this thread from Tucker Max?
Also, not all self help books are 'pure bullshit' and not all of them are simple Richard Hoover "Fix your life in X steps" things
Books like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, The Alchemist, and The Peaceful Warrior have helped me let go of many unproductive elements in my life despite definitely being pop-psych to the point of near corniness.
I don't make many excuses for failures, but for a long time I would seek many excuses not to do things, on both a micro and macro level.
The excuses were mostly bullshit. As far as I'm concerned, the only excuse for an educated first world citizen not to be doing exactly what they please is a responsibility toward children you spawned.
Hey ege what EXCUSE will you use if I ask you if you copied this thread from Tucker Max?
I copied the relationship wisdom thread from Tucker Max. This one was honestly not copied, although I wouldn't be surprised if there is a similar one there.
Like I said, a lot of self-help stuff may be common sense. But I would rather pay 20 bucks for a book and learn the stuff - from a perspective different than mine - in several hours rather than wait for months or years to figure it out on my own.
It shouldn't take months or years to figure out common sense on your own. That's why it's called common sense.
I disagree. Common sense isn't as common as people may think. It's not always something that magically occurs to people. For this reason I think the term itself is a little misleading. For example, a lot of "common sense" comes with experience. Also, people sometimes need someone else to point out something to them. Or maybe they need something pointed out to them from different perspectives.
And what about details of how to go about accomplishing something? I know that I shouldn't procrastinate. Is it wrong of me to go buy a book that offers tactics to help me overcome that habit? I mean, it is self-help, it is common sense, it is just expanded upon - sometimes greatly so - and offered in an effective, motivating language.
I think calling self-help books common sense is a tremendous oversimplification (not to mention a sweeping generalization) and it's not exactly fair.
It's really sweet that you're so taken with 7 Habits and Mr. Covey. I'm sure he appreciates it. But if someone can't figure out that the way to stop procrastinating is to fucking stop procrastinating, then a book isn't going to help them.
What would you say is a more fair definition of self-help books? If they aren't common sense wrapped in buzzwords and marketing, then what are they?
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JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
edited September 2007
Murphy, I'm sure you're a fully self-actualized millionaire with no neurosis and a perfect personal life easily captured by your charm and six pack and all, but some of us engage in irrational behavior.
If we could stop doing the behavior, without guidance of any sort, then it wouldn't be irrational behavior and thus would not create any life problems.
Let me ask you something - do personal trainers make you feel the same way? I mean, they just tell you to exercise, people know that already, right? So what's the point of paying a guy for motivation and specifics? Why not just exercise on your own?
Murphy, I'm sure you're a fully self-actualized millionaire with no neurosis and a perfect personal life easily captured by your charm and six pack and all, but some of us engage in irrational behavior.
If we could stop doing the behavior, without guidance of any sort, then it wouldn't be irrational behavior and thus would not create any life problems.
Let me ask you something - do personal trainers make you feel the same way? I mean, they just tell you to exercise, people know that already, right? So what's the point of paying a guy for motivation and specifics? Why not just exercise on your own?
I think it just comes down to feeling the need to pass judgments on people who read self-help books.
I used to make a decent amount of excuses for myself, but they were all rather legitimate excuses based around my lack of funds.
Now that I have a job though, and have a decent stockpile of back-up cash in case shit hits the fan I am doing a lot of things I've always wanted. I'm going to the gym with a friend of mine, I just picked up a bass guitar after a lot of research and began to practice, I'm going to college and still working for some extra scratch.
The only excuse I really have for not doing something at the moment is "Sorry, can't fit it into my schedule". I gave up on being afraid to fail at something as an excuse a long time ago, around the same time I decided I should convince everyone I knew to try to play Dungeons and Dragons with me.
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JohnnyCacheStarting DefensePlace at the tableRegistered Userregular
edited September 2007
It's something I've christened IAMS
Internet Ascended Master Syndrome
Where ever you go online there is some guy that just doesn't need it because he's already the master. Ask for diet help? He's already skinny. Ask for money help? He's already rich. And your thread is a great place for him to tell about it, without giving details or telling how. He just .. . IS . . . already there.
It's not even bullshit. It's just the law of odds - lots of people reading, one or more of them will be a 'natural' at the subject - combined with your standard "ANON INTERNET FUC KFU CK FUCK" behavior standard allowing him/her/it to crow about it.
Depression, girls, and work seem to be the areas these guys come out the most - and especially in depression/self improvement inquiries, the attitude is that you could just shape up if you REALLY wanted to...which is true, but internal issues can be very real when you're restrained by them (ask someone with a bad phobia) and just being told, "That's not normal. Just let go and be normal" just doesn't work for everyone with those issues.
Some people need a longer process and it's no more "bullshit" or "buzzwords and marketing" just because it seems like common sense to people that don't need it then the technology of a cast would be bullshit because you don't see the point of putting it on an unbroken limb.
Seriously. When you are in a rut and you want the fuck out, you may not know how to go about doing that. All that you know is that you want to change.
Some people get professional help. Some people bottle their shit in. Some people get self help books.
What the fuck is wrong with getting a self help book when you want help, but don't know how to go about helping yourself?
"Its just common sense you fool": this statement pisses the fuck out of me. Sorry everyone isn't as fucking intelligent and strong willed as all of you are, like I keep saying some people need some guidance and self help books can be a good start.
Murphy, I'm sure you're a fully self-actualized millionaire with no neurosis and a perfect personal life easily captured by your charm and six pack and all, but some of us engage in irrational behavior.
Of course I'm not. But I'm sure you already knew that.
If we could stop doing the behavior, without guidance of any sort, then it wouldn't be irrational behavior and thus would not create any life problems.
Not necessarily. It's entirely possible to figure out on your own and without external help that some of the things you are doing are destructive, or just not constructive, and then you can decide to change your behavior. Sure, some people have more success with it than others, but it isn't that uncommon.
Let me ask you something - do personal trainers make you feel the same way? I mean, they just tell you to exercise, people know that already, right? So what's the point of paying a guy for motivation and specifics? Why not just exercise on your own?
It's not a very good analogy at all. There are specific ways to exercise. If you don't do things correctly you could seriously hurt yourself. Going to a paid professional for advice is perfectly reasonable behavior.
How is paying someone to tell you that the way to stop procrastinating is to stop procrastinating anything like seeking specific advice from a trained professional?
At no point have I said that all self-help is a waste of time, or deserving of mockery. I have a particular beef with the crap that is the 7 Habits, but otherwise, I'm pretty ambivalent about it.
If we could stop doing the behavior, without guidance of any sort, then it wouldn't be irrational behavior and thus would not create any life problems.
Not necessarily. It's entirely possible to figure out on your own and without external help that some of the things you are doing are destructive, or just not constructive, and then you can decide to change your behavior. Sure, some people have more success with it than others, but it isn't that uncommon.
That's what you don't seem to get: not all self-help books are about figuring out which habits of yours are destructive. There are ones about giving your life direction, there are ones about motivation, there are ones that simply offer different perspectives on a broad range of topics. If you want to sit on your ass and try to figure it all out on your own, be my guest.
Let me ask you something - do personal trainers make you feel the same way? I mean, they just tell you to exercise, people know that already, right? So what's the point of paying a guy for motivation and specifics? Why not just exercise on your own?
It's not a very good analogy at all. There are specific ways to exercise. If you don't do things correctly you could seriously hurt yourself. Going to a paid professional for advice is perfectly reasonable behavior.
How is paying someone to tell you that the way to stop procrastinating is to stop procrastinating anything like seeking specific advice from a trained professional?
Nobody self-help book is telling you that the way to stop procrastinating is to stop procrastinating. They are explaining how to do it.
I mean look, I don't know how I can explain it any better than this: just because you can realize you have a problem doesn't mean you will also know precisely what to do to solve it. This is where self-help comes in.
Anyway, about your other point, what does it take to become a "trained professional"?
If I'm a monk living in some mountain monastery, and I'm a hundred years old and I've figured life out, when I offer advice should people dismiss it because I don't hold a degree in psychology?
Not necessarily. It's entirely possible to figure out on your own and without external help that some of the things you are doing are destructive, or just not constructive, and then you can decide to change your behavior. Sure, some people have more success with it than others, but it isn't that uncommon.
That's what you don't seem to get: not all self-help books are about figuring out which habits of yours are destructive. There are ones about giving your life direction, there are ones about motivation, there are ones that simply offer different perspectives on a broad range of topics. If you want to sit on your ass and try to figure it all out on your own, be my guest.
Did you miss the bold part? I do get that it's not all about destructive habits. And who said anything about sitting on your ass?
Nobody self-help book is telling you that the way to stop procrastinating is to stop procrastinating. They are explaining how to do it.
So how much more complex is it than "Stop procrastinating. Start doing."
I mean look, I don't know how I can explain it any better than this: just because you can realize you have a problem doesn't mean you will also know precisely what to do to solve it. This is where self-help comes in.
Sure, sometimes. Or you see a therapist, or ask a question in H&A. That's perfectly reasonable. The self-help I have a problem with is the one where you don't actually bother to try and solve the problem at all. You just buy a book, or a tape, or go to a seminar, and think that's all you have to do to fix your life.
And yes, I realize that that's a problem with the person, not necessarily the program. But that's how these things are sold.
Anyway, about your other point, what does it take to become a "trained professional"?
If I'm a monk living in some mountain monastery, and I'm a hundred years old and I've figured life out, when I offer advice should people dismiss it because I don't hold a degree in psychology?
How many hundred year old monks are running around dispensing advice?
Anyway, about your other point, what does it take to become a "trained professional"?
If I'm a monk living in some mountain monastery, and I'm a hundred years old and I've figured life out, when I offer advice should people dismiss it because I don't hold a degree in psychology?
How many hundred year old monks are running around dispensing advice?
What does that have to do with anything? Answer the question.
What the fuck is wrong with getting a self help book when you want help, but don't know how to go about helping yourself?
I see nothing wrong with self-help books written by accredited professionals with detailed advice on how to deal with specific problems. Books like Undoing Depression or The Relaxation and Stress Reduction Workbook or Beware the Talking Cure are fabulous books that I'd recommend to anybody.
These are very different from books that provide non-specific advice on how to change your entire life, particularly when such books are written by non-professionals. Books like 7 Habits..., Rich Dad Poor Dad, Men Are From Mars..., and The Four-Hour Workweek, just to name a few, purport to revitalize your entire life (except for Men Are From Mars, which merely promises to revitalize your entire marriage). These books seem designed not to help people, but to create a cult of personality around the authors. A book like Undoing Depression sells largely because therapists recommend it to their clients and to each other. A book like 7 Habits... sells because Stephen Covey is highly charismatic and rocked the talk show circuit.
The good books I name-dropped were written by professional psychologists each with years of experience treating patients for the exact issues they're writing about. Stephen Covey and Robert Kiyosaki, on the other hand, seem to have no actual life success that is not a direct result of their respective self-aggrandizement. They're excellent salesmen, especially when the product they're shilling is themselves. John Gray has no experience actually counseling couples. They're folk wisdom at best, complete fabrications at worst.
Beyond that, the lack of professional training in these people also means that they have a lack of ethical training. If Robert Kiyosaki were an actual real estate agent, he could be sanctioned for giving poor advice. If John Gray were a psychologist, he would know how to tread the line between advice that is too specific and advice that isn't specific enough - because either can not only be useless, but actually dangerous. But they're not professionals, they're just blokes, which means that they can spout whatever crappy advice they want as long as they keep selling books. H/A has more controls over bad advice than the self-help industry.
Actually, I have many of the same problems with personal trainers, largely because of a poor experience I had with a personal trainer when I was fresh out of college. There's no control over their industry, no necessary education, no standard protocols, no sanctions if they give bad advice. Any schmuck with a nice body can call himself a personal trainer and proceed to charge people for giving them completely fabricated advice.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Actually, not really. There are a lot of "teaching x skill" books out there that claim to be the best and most effective. Some even say shit like, "learn x in y hours!" Yeah, that's not marketing at all. :roll:
Not nearly the same thing as what I'm talking about. Try harder.
he bolded part. Yes. If you're looking for affirmation and comfort, you won't find it in self-help books, as most of them challenge you to go out of your comfort zone and actually change for the better, rather than "oh, no worries, you're fine the way you are" even though you may not be fine.
You really missed the point of that one.
How judgmental of you. But that's nothing new.
Abloobloo. Excuse me for holding people to a standard outside their 'comfort zone' :roll:
Anyway, about your other point, what does it take to become a "trained professional"?
If I'm a monk living in some mountain monastery, and I'm a hundred years old and I've figured life out, when I offer advice should people dismiss it because I don't hold a degree in psychology?
How many hundred year old monks are running around dispensing advice?
What does that have to do with anything? Answer the question.
It's a stupid question. There aren't a bunch of 100 year old monks running around dispensing advice. If there were, it would be a valid question. But ok, sure. If I met this fictitious 100 year old monk, and he offered me some advice, I'd take what he had to say into consideration.
On the other hand, if I went to a (professionally trained) personal trainer and asked how to do a better squat thrust, I'd do what he told me to do.
Feral actually said what I've been trying to say a lot better than I did. I have nothing against self-help as an idea (which I already said a few posts ago). What I have a problem with is the culty ones, like 7 Habits.
I see nothing wrong with self-help books written by accredited professionals with detailed advice on how to deal with specific problems. Books like Undoing Depression or The Relaxation and Stress Reduction Workbook or Beware the Talking Cure are fabulous books that I'd recommend to anybody.
These are very different from books that provide non-specific advice on how to change your entire life, particularly when such books are written by non-professionals. Books like 7 Habits..., Rich Dad Poor Dad, Men Are From Mars..., and The Four-Hour Workweek, just to name a few, purport to revitalize your entire life (except for Men Are From Mars, which merely promises to revitalize your entire marriage). These books seem designed not to help people, but to create a cult of personality around the authors. A book like Undoing Depression sells largely because therapists recommend it to their clients and to each other. A book like 7 Habits... sells because Stephen Covey is highly charismatic and rocked the talk show circuit.
I see nothing wrong with self-help books written by accredited professionals with detailed advice on how to deal with specific problems. Books like Undoing Depression or The Relaxation and Stress Reduction Workbook or Beware the Talking Cure are fabulous books that I'd recommend to anybody.
These are very different from books that provide non-specific advice on how to change your entire life, particularly when such books are written by non-professionals. Books like 7 Habits..., Rich Dad Poor Dad, Men Are From Mars..., and The Four-Hour Workweek, just to name a few, purport to revitalize your entire life (except for Men Are From Mars, which merely promises to revitalize your entire marriage). These books seem designed not to help people, but to create a cult of personality around the authors. A book like Undoing Depression sells largely because therapists recommend it to their clients and to each other. A book like 7 Habits... sells because Stephen Covey is highly charismatic and rocked the talk show circuit.
Yes. This.
Just in case my comment about this is ignored at the bottom of the last page.
Actually, not really. There are a lot of "teaching x skill" books out there that claim to be the best and most effective. Some even say shit like, "learn x in y hours!" Yeah, that's not marketing at all. :roll:
Not nearly the same thing as what I'm talking about. Try harder.
Why is it not nearly the same thing?
"The hints and tips in this book self-help book will make you a more successful person!"
"This body language book will teach you the secrets of body language in less than 5 hours!"
Yeah, same thing.
honestly, one of the best not-actually-self-help books I've read was called What should I do with my life?, and was just one dude talking about a bunch of awesome people he'd met. No expectation of epiphany, just a lot of really interesting and affirming/comforting stuff.
The bolded part. Yes. If you're looking for affirmation and comfort, you won't find it in self-help books, as most of them challenge you to go out of your comfort zone and actually change for the better, rather than "oh, no worries, you're fine the way you are" even though you may not be fine.[/quote]
You really missed the point of that one.[/quote]
I didn't miss it. I was just making a point of my own, which you seem to have missed.
Abloobloo. Excuse me for holding people to a standard outside their 'comfort zone'
No, you're simply holding them to unrealistic standards.
As for the 100-year-old monk thought exercise, I'd take what he has to say on its own merits. If he makes a certain statement about life, I would expect him to back it up with sound reasoning. I would make the same judgment of a 50-year-old psychologist or a 25-year-old college student.
My emphasis on credentials was not to say that only credentialed professionals give good advice... but it definitely helps.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
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really, yes. People shouldn't need to be told those things.
Reading a different perspective on dealing with a problem you might have can be an eye opener. But only utilizing those books as opposed to using common sense and people in your life who have real world experience can definitely hurt.
honestly, one of the best not-actually-self-help books I've read was called What should I do with my life?, and was just one dude talking about a bunch of awesome people he'd met. No expectation of epiphany, just a lot of really interesting and affirming/comforting stuff.
Now, you could certainly boil down everything in these books into pretty straightforward concepts: treat other people as if they are important, listen when other people talk, encourage others, criticize people in one-on-ones instead of in meetings, etc. I mean, anyone who's not an asshole wants to do that stuff, right? That doesn't mean some of us (like me) don't need reminders from time to time.
Now, personally, 7 Habits did nothing for me. But not every book you read is going to be your style, and nobody's claiming that every self-help book you read is going to be some kind of infallible life-changing tome of wisdom.
Except, y'know, the back covers of the books themselves, and sometimes the introductions.
Sorry but I think that is bullshit. Some people do need the help, really.
Well, I guess I don't take issue with an author attempting to market the book itself. Are we holding these books to different standards than every other product out there? My Calculus reference textbook said right on the back, "The only Calculus book you'll ever need - guaranteed! This book is one of the best books available on the market, whether you're an experienced mathematician or a layman learning for the first time."
Not disagreeing with your point, necessarily, but I'm not sure the fact that all marketing is bullshit casts a worse light on self-help books than it does on any other product.
There's a subtle difference between a book that claims to tell you how to do calculus and a book that claims to be able to fix your life.
Agreed. Statitistics have proven that approximately 50% percent of the population falls below average intelligence.
I don't care about grades, all I want to do is be in the NBA.
Oh shit, I fucked up my shoulder and can't ever play basketball professionally.
I took the SAT and got an 840/1600 and thought it was an 84%.
I somehow managed to get into college anyway, and eventually got a Ph.D.
So, his way of telling us to not screw around is by telling us how he was stupid as a child, screwed around, and eventually succeeded anyway. Thanks.
Also, at the beginning of the speech, he talked about how Indian kids are vying for our jobs and we need to be competitive. Right after that, he told us how lions kill baby cheetahs to stop competition.
We should kill the youth of India.
Actually, not really. There are a lot of "teaching x skill" books out there that claim to be the best and most effective. Some even say shit like, "learn x in y hours!" Yeah, that's not marketing at all. :roll:
The bolded part. Yes. If you're looking for affirmation and comfort, you won't find it in self-help books, as most of them challenge you to go out of your comfort zone and actually change for the better, rather than "oh, no worries, you're fine the way you are" even though you may not be fine.
If person A is buying self-help book B because they honestly believe the marketing and they expect it to change their lives, the problem isn't with the book, it's with the person.
You can get something from every book out there, regardless of topic, its contents, or the way it is marketed. Just because the book makes grandiose claims about what it's going to accomplish doesn't mean one should dismiss it right away.
How judgmental of you. But that's nothing new.
Like I said, a lot of self-help stuff may be common sense. But I would rather pay 20 bucks for a book and learn the stuff - from a perspective different than mine - in several hours rather than wait for months or years to figure it out on my own.
That only idiots buy snake oil does not make the charlatans selling it immune from criticism. Blame is not a zero-sum game, especially not when you're blaming the victim.
It shouldn't take months or years to figure out common sense on your own. That's why it's called common sense.
In any case, a lot of these books are common sense, but often that common sense is the candy coating around a pill of pure bullshit.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
You know. Like a person.
I don't really see this as a very pressing issue in need of a solution.
Also, self-help is what people who dropped out of Psych just before the Ethics portion go into.
Also, not all self help books are 'pure bullshit' and not all of them are simple Richard Hoover "Fix your life in X steps" things
Books like Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, The Alchemist, and The Peaceful Warrior have helped me let go of many unproductive elements in my life despite definitely being pop-psych to the point of near corniness.
I don't make many excuses for failures, but for a long time I would seek many excuses not to do things, on both a micro and macro level.
The excuses were mostly bullshit. As far as I'm concerned, the only excuse for an educated first world citizen not to be doing exactly what they please is a responsibility toward children you spawned.
I host a podcast about movies.
I copied the relationship wisdom thread from Tucker Max. This one was honestly not copied, although I wouldn't be surprised if there is a similar one there.
I disagree. Common sense isn't as common as people may think. It's not always something that magically occurs to people. For this reason I think the term itself is a little misleading. For example, a lot of "common sense" comes with experience. Also, people sometimes need someone else to point out something to them. Or maybe they need something pointed out to them from different perspectives.
And what about details of how to go about accomplishing something? I know that I shouldn't procrastinate. Is it wrong of me to go buy a book that offers tactics to help me overcome that habit? I mean, it is self-help, it is common sense, it is just expanded upon - sometimes greatly so - and offered in an effective, motivating language.
I think calling self-help books common sense is a tremendous oversimplification (not to mention a sweeping generalization) and it's not exactly fair.
What would you say is a more fair definition of self-help books? If they aren't common sense wrapped in buzzwords and marketing, then what are they?
If we could stop doing the behavior, without guidance of any sort, then it wouldn't be irrational behavior and thus would not create any life problems.
Let me ask you something - do personal trainers make you feel the same way? I mean, they just tell you to exercise, people know that already, right? So what's the point of paying a guy for motivation and specifics? Why not just exercise on your own?
I host a podcast about movies.
I think it just comes down to feeling the need to pass judgments on people who read self-help books.
Now that I have a job though, and have a decent stockpile of back-up cash in case shit hits the fan I am doing a lot of things I've always wanted. I'm going to the gym with a friend of mine, I just picked up a bass guitar after a lot of research and began to practice, I'm going to college and still working for some extra scratch.
The only excuse I really have for not doing something at the moment is "Sorry, can't fit it into my schedule". I gave up on being afraid to fail at something as an excuse a long time ago, around the same time I decided I should convince everyone I knew to try to play Dungeons and Dragons with me.
Internet Ascended Master Syndrome
Where ever you go online there is some guy that just doesn't need it because he's already the master. Ask for diet help? He's already skinny. Ask for money help? He's already rich. And your thread is a great place for him to tell about it, without giving details or telling how. He just .. . IS . . . already there.
It's not even bullshit. It's just the law of odds - lots of people reading, one or more of them will be a 'natural' at the subject - combined with your standard "ANON INTERNET FUC KFU CK FUCK" behavior standard allowing him/her/it to crow about it.
Depression, girls, and work seem to be the areas these guys come out the most - and especially in depression/self improvement inquiries, the attitude is that you could just shape up if you REALLY wanted to...which is true, but internal issues can be very real when you're restrained by them (ask someone with a bad phobia) and just being told, "That's not normal. Just let go and be normal" just doesn't work for everyone with those issues.
Some people need a longer process and it's no more "bullshit" or "buzzwords and marketing" just because it seems like common sense to people that don't need it then the technology of a cast would be bullshit because you don't see the point of putting it on an unbroken limb.
I host a podcast about movies.
Some people get professional help. Some people bottle their shit in. Some people get self help books.
What the fuck is wrong with getting a self help book when you want help, but don't know how to go about helping yourself?
"Its just common sense you fool": this statement pisses the fuck out of me. Sorry everyone isn't as fucking intelligent and strong willed as all of you are, like I keep saying some people need some guidance and self help books can be a good start.
Not necessarily. It's entirely possible to figure out on your own and without external help that some of the things you are doing are destructive, or just not constructive, and then you can decide to change your behavior. Sure, some people have more success with it than others, but it isn't that uncommon.
It's not a very good analogy at all. There are specific ways to exercise. If you don't do things correctly you could seriously hurt yourself. Going to a paid professional for advice is perfectly reasonable behavior.
How is paying someone to tell you that the way to stop procrastinating is to stop procrastinating anything like seeking specific advice from a trained professional?
At no point have I said that all self-help is a waste of time, or deserving of mockery. I have a particular beef with the crap that is the 7 Habits, but otherwise, I'm pretty ambivalent about it.
That's what you don't seem to get: not all self-help books are about figuring out which habits of yours are destructive. There are ones about giving your life direction, there are ones about motivation, there are ones that simply offer different perspectives on a broad range of topics. If you want to sit on your ass and try to figure it all out on your own, be my guest.
Nobody self-help book is telling you that the way to stop procrastinating is to stop procrastinating. They are explaining how to do it.
I mean look, I don't know how I can explain it any better than this: just because you can realize you have a problem doesn't mean you will also know precisely what to do to solve it. This is where self-help comes in.
Anyway, about your other point, what does it take to become a "trained professional"?
If I'm a monk living in some mountain monastery, and I'm a hundred years old and I've figured life out, when I offer advice should people dismiss it because I don't hold a degree in psychology?
So how much more complex is it than "Stop procrastinating. Start doing."
Sure, sometimes. Or you see a therapist, or ask a question in H&A. That's perfectly reasonable. The self-help I have a problem with is the one where you don't actually bother to try and solve the problem at all. You just buy a book, or a tape, or go to a seminar, and think that's all you have to do to fix your life.
And yes, I realize that that's a problem with the person, not necessarily the program. But that's how these things are sold.
How many hundred year old monks are running around dispensing advice?
What does that have to do with anything? Answer the question.
I see nothing wrong with self-help books written by accredited professionals with detailed advice on how to deal with specific problems. Books like Undoing Depression or The Relaxation and Stress Reduction Workbook or Beware the Talking Cure are fabulous books that I'd recommend to anybody.
These are very different from books that provide non-specific advice on how to change your entire life, particularly when such books are written by non-professionals. Books like 7 Habits..., Rich Dad Poor Dad, Men Are From Mars..., and The Four-Hour Workweek, just to name a few, purport to revitalize your entire life (except for Men Are From Mars, which merely promises to revitalize your entire marriage). These books seem designed not to help people, but to create a cult of personality around the authors. A book like Undoing Depression sells largely because therapists recommend it to their clients and to each other. A book like 7 Habits... sells because Stephen Covey is highly charismatic and rocked the talk show circuit.
The good books I name-dropped were written by professional psychologists each with years of experience treating patients for the exact issues they're writing about. Stephen Covey and Robert Kiyosaki, on the other hand, seem to have no actual life success that is not a direct result of their respective self-aggrandizement. They're excellent salesmen, especially when the product they're shilling is themselves. John Gray has no experience actually counseling couples. They're folk wisdom at best, complete fabrications at worst.
Beyond that, the lack of professional training in these people also means that they have a lack of ethical training. If Robert Kiyosaki were an actual real estate agent, he could be sanctioned for giving poor advice. If John Gray were a psychologist, he would know how to tread the line between advice that is too specific and advice that isn't specific enough - because either can not only be useless, but actually dangerous. But they're not professionals, they're just blokes, which means that they can spout whatever crappy advice they want as long as they keep selling books. H/A has more controls over bad advice than the self-help industry.
Actually, I have many of the same problems with personal trainers, largely because of a poor experience I had with a personal trainer when I was fresh out of college. There's no control over their industry, no necessary education, no standard protocols, no sanctions if they give bad advice. Any schmuck with a nice body can call himself a personal trainer and proceed to charge people for giving them completely fabricated advice.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
You really missed the point of that one.
Abloobloo. Excuse me for holding people to a standard outside their 'comfort zone' :roll:
On the other hand, if I went to a (professionally trained) personal trainer and asked how to do a better squat thrust, I'd do what he told me to do.
Feral actually said what I've been trying to say a lot better than I did. I have nothing against self-help as an idea (which I already said a few posts ago). What I have a problem with is the culty ones, like 7 Habits.
Yes. This.
Why is it not nearly the same thing?
"The hints and tips in this book self-help book will make you a more successful person!"
"This body language book will teach you the secrets of body language in less than 5 hours!"
Yeah, same thing.
The bolded part. Yes. If you're looking for affirmation and comfort, you won't find it in self-help books, as most of them challenge you to go out of your comfort zone and actually change for the better, rather than "oh, no worries, you're fine the way you are" even though you may not be fine.[/quote]
You really missed the point of that one.[/quote]
I didn't miss it. I was just making a point of my own, which you seem to have missed.
No, you're simply holding them to unrealistic standards.
Guess so, Cat. Guess so.
My emphasis on credentials was not to say that only credentialed professionals give good advice... but it definitely helps.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.