So, adventures in house buying! I will be cancelling the contract I have on the house I wanted to buy tonight. I had the inspection yesterday and it showed that the MLS Listing for the hourse was incorrect, and the house was missing key things that the listing said it had. These are things that would run in the tens of thousands of dollars to install and are kind of one of my major points in buying a house.
If I hadn't been at the inspection so I could empisize locating these things, the inspector would not have known how vital they were to me and to pay close attention for them. So, while I'm out the $350 for the inspection, I am not out the $150k+ I would have been if I'd gone through the sale and then found out after I got the keys.
Thankfully, my current apartment lease isn't up until October, so I'm not exactly completely screwed, but others might not be so lucky.
we are going through this from the other end, selling our house now. We offically listed this morning and had 3 showings already with 3 more tomorrow. It wouldnt be so bad if we didnt have our dog, but dog + 2.5 year old = the suckage hopefully we sell fast
So, adventures in house buying! I will be cancelling the contract I have on the house I wanted to buy tonight. I had the inspection yesterday and it showed that the MLS Listing for the hourse was incorrect, and the house was missing key things that the listing said it had. These are things that would run in the tens of thousands of dollars to install and are kind of one of my major points in buying a house.
If I hadn't been at the inspection so I could empisize locating these things, the inspector would not have known how vital they were to me and to pay close attention for them. So, while I'm out the $350 for the inspection, I am not out the $150k+ I would have been if I'd gone through the sale and then found out after I got the keys.
Thankfully, my current apartment lease isn't up until October, so I'm not exactly completely screwed, but others might not be so lucky.
what was missing?
The house was listed as having Natural Gas lines built into it, both in the MLS description and in the seller's property description at the house. This is rather important to me, as where I live Natural Gas heating costs significantly less than electric does where I live (to the tune of about $800/year on average). Natural Gas also heats a hell of a lot better than electric does (a Natural Gas furnace blows air at around 110 degrees while electric blows air at around 85 degrees). While the house was listed as currently being electric, the gas lines would have allowed me to switch prior to winter, and I've had made the money back in about three years, so it didn't worry me.
When we went through for the inspection, though, we found that there were no gas lines and there never were. It wasn't a situation where it was partially removed and then capped off. They just never existed.
That's probably a good deal if you were ok with 165k. I want to say our closing costs were at least 5k maybe even 10,and honestly the difference between 165 and 167is nothing in the grand scheme of things
When your inspection finds things that you then negotiate to be fixed, be sure to have your inspector come back to recheck them. If your inspector isn't willing to do this, find a new inspector.
If you ask for things like replacing carpets or windows, it can be better to get quotes and ask for the cash at closing rather than having them cheap out on fixing them.
Don't even worry about the appraisal, that's the sellers' thing to worry about getting screwed up.
Make sure someone is caring for the yard in between now and closing.
Change the locks as soon as you get the keys. They could have had unsavory tenets living there prior.
Those are just off the top of my head in the middle of the night. Have fun!
Make sure one of you walks through with the inspector. That way if there's anything you're interested in, you can ask them for more details while they're there to work with you. Check to make sure everything that the house was listed to come with is there and working.
Also - get the most brutal inspector you can, even if it's a little extra. I paid $700 for mine (included septic and well tests), and he took 2-3 hours walking through every inch of the house, even noting minor differences from code in how footings were mounted etc.
Also - get the most brutal inspector you can, even if it's a little extra. I paid $700 for mine (included septic and well tests), and he took 2-3 hours walking through every inch of the house, even noting minor differences from code in how footings were mounted etc.
Most of the people she quoted me were ~300 for full house inspection and there was one on there for 585 (includes termite and radon). I went with 585 after seeing they had no complaint against them in the BBB since 05.
Also - get the most brutal inspector you can, even if it's a little extra. I paid $700 for mine (included septic and well tests), and he took 2-3 hours walking through every inch of the house, even noting minor differences from code in how footings were mounted etc.
Most of the people she quoted me were ~300 for full house inspection and there was one on there for 585 (includes termite and radon). I went with 585 after seeing they had no complaint against them in the BBB since 05.
Yep, compared to the cost of the issues, it's cheap. Also check to make sure they're a member of http://www.ashi.org/ etc.
Man I forgot to tell our original lender that we went with our Credit Union for our mortgage and he called today to check in with us. I feel kinda bad about that.
- Outlets outside need covers on them.
- Outlet on back porch needs to be secured.
- Chimney needs to be sealed with something other than caulking.
- Toilet in master bath needs to be secured.
- Breaker box needs to not be double tapped.
Less concerning:
- Gutter screws coming out, need to be secured.
- Master bedroom ceiling is slightly bowing, possible water damage?
Ask him how much he thinks it'll cost to fix everything.
Concerns 1, 2, and 4 seem like things you can handle yourself (careful w/r/to electricity). Do you ave an electrician you can talk to?
I wouldn't necessarily consider bowing ceiling a lesser concern. If he says it's not a big deal then perhaps you can ignore, but you might need to fix when you sell. replacing drywall and refinishing isn't cheap.
It wasn't nearly bowing as much as it sounds and the inspector told me it's nothing major to worry about. He didn't see any water stains and he said that it would be a cheap fix if something were to happen to it in the future. There are these things on the roof that let air out or something like that (no idea the name, obviously) and he said with the winter that we had the wind probably blew snow into it and it dripped down on the ceiling of that room. In his report he didn't even mention it and didn't sound like it was a big deal to him at all.
I think the chimney and the breaker box would be the most expensive parts. The outlet covers are like $2 and I can secure the outlet outside if I need to.
The Chimney and Breaker Box would be the two I would be worried about. Both of those could be fire hazards (there are types of caulking that are flammable and bad wiring can always have a chance to start a fire).
Personally, I would see if you could get the current owners to pay to have them both redone by certified people. If you can only get one, have them get a certified electrician to redo the breaker box. You can solve the Chimney issue by simply not having a fire in it until you can afford to get it fixed.
The Chimney problem is also on the outside. He called it "spaling" or something like that. Basically just weather beat the hell out of it over the winter and they used caulk to fill it in... But he said that it won't last very long with it.
if its just the mortar bits they sell repair kits for like 7 bucks, its just like using a caulk gun only mortar
the breaker box is a big deal possibly
That's exactly it, it was just the mortar bits. So I'm going to try and get them to fix a lot of the things and if they refuse I'm going to get them to at least do the breaker.
If the issues don't dissuade you from the house I'd seriously consider getting some estimates for the work and have them give that to you as cash back at closing. That way you're not reliant on them doing a good job and you have the monies to fix issues (if you want to) after close.
Double tapping isn't that huge a deal, depends on the draw (basically every house that's been expanded has double tapping because electricians be lazy yo).
The bowing ceiling is something to check out though.
Double tapping isn't that huge a deal, depends on the draw (basically every house that's been expanded has double tapping because electricians be lazy yo).
The bowing ceiling is something to check out though.
Except for when the Double Tapping requires more voltage than the breaker box can handle and the box bursts into flames. That was a fun experience when I was 10. At the very least, you really need to get a certified electrician in there to look at it.
Double tapping isn't that huge a deal, depends on the draw (basically every house that's been expanded has double tapping because electricians be lazy yo).
The bowing ceiling is something to check out though.
Except for when the Double Tapping requires more voltage than the breaker box can handle and the box bursts into flames. That was a fun experience when I was 10. At the very least, you really need to get a certified electrician in there to look at it.
Agreed, but it basically just costs 1 new breaker per tap to fix unless the box is full.
Double tapping isn't that huge a deal, depends on the draw (basically every house that's been expanded has double tapping because electricians be lazy yo).
The bowing ceiling is something to check out though.
Except for when the Double Tapping requires more voltage than the breaker box can handle and the box bursts into flames. That was a fun experience when I was 10. At the very least, you really need to get a certified electrician in there to look at it.
Agreed, but it basically just costs 1 new breaker per tap to fix unless the box is full.
Even if the box is full, you can swap out single breaker switches for dual breaker switches, which are basically two half sized single switches.
What is double tapping and what are the implications?
Its when you place two conductors under one circuit breaker. Some breakers are designed for this (and are labeled as such) but if they're not, the the wires can come out or can draw too much power without tripping the breaker and start a fire if the house is trying to draw more power than the breaker can handle (for instance, if its a 150w breaker, and the house is drawing 200w). This last is VERY uncommon, and you'll probably only find it in older houses who never had the breaker replaced. This issue was discovered in the late 70s and modern circuit breakers will just kill the power.
@Urahonky did the home inspector inspect the interior of the chimney? I only mention that because I looked at several houses that had fireplaces and for a few of them, their interiors were in a bad state. You close the flue when you're not using the fireplace: during the winter cold air will enter through the chimney and into the house; during the summer your cold air will leave through the chimney.
Some home inspectors don't inspect the interior: you'll need to get a chimney inspection done as they'll inspect the flue, the damper, the interior mortar/liners. You'll want to know the state of the chimney before you start using it.
We did a Level 1 Chimney inspection, which was just him taking a look at the inside and outside. A level 2 inspection was like an extra $80 and I wasn't sure if we were even going to use the fireplace. He did say that they just replaced the interior a few months ago. But I'm going to get a level 2 inspection whenever we decide to start using it (probably when it starts getting cold again).
Additionally, find out how old the following things are:
Roof
Water heater
Cooling system and when the last time it was serviced
If your AC uses R-12 or R-22 Freon the supply is dwindling and prices rising due to the phase out, so if the system springs a leak you'll have to either do a retrofit or replace the entire unit. HVAC's have a lifespan of 10-20 years, so by knowing when it was installed you have an estimate timeframe.
This wonderful home has been completely updated over the past 4 years.Since 2010 new appliances,all interior and exterior paint,master shower,fireplace liner,added insulation, 1 inch faux wood blinds throughout,water heater,utility sink, AND THE ENTIRE BASEMENT HAS BEEN FINISHED including waterproofing by Bill Campbell.The BASEMENT boasts the large 4th bedroom,full bathroom,glass block windows,full wet bar,large rec room, and new patio slider to the patio area out back. The basement could be an in law suite or a rental space. The lower level is flat awesome. There is loads of storage with 3 closets in the master bedroom and a total of 13 closets throughout. New roof in 2008.There is also an Extra parking pad, 2 back patios(1 covered), and a storage shed
I'll have to look at the cooling system. I seem to remember hearing about it. I think the inspection guy said the furnace is old but in good condition. He said that if the temperature gets below 26 or something like that then it kicks in, otherwise it reverses the air from the AC unit. I'll look through the inspection report to be sure, though.
What is double tapping and what are the implications?
Its when you place two conductors under one circuit breaker. Some breakers are designed for this (and are labeled as such) but if they're not, the the wires can come out or can draw too much power without tripping the breaker and start a fire if the house is trying to draw more power than the breaker can handle (for instance, if its a 150w breaker, and the house is drawing 200w). This last is VERY uncommon, and you'll probably only find it in older houses who never had the breaker replaced. This issue was discovered in the late 70s and modern circuit breakers will just kill the power.
So, I'm not an electrician but this doesn't sound right. I'm like 99% sure you can't draw more power through a circuit breaker than it's rated for regardless of what you connect to it. That's why it exists. Likewise you can't overvolt a circuit breaker. It is not a transformer and the transformer outside your house won't ever provide a higher voltage.
The danger with double tapping seems to be loose wires. Basically the NEC states that you should never hook up more wires to any connection device than what that connection device is rated for. For a circuit breaker that usually means 1 wire. If you hook up two wires then there's a chance that the wires will come loose from normal contraction/expansion of the wires (the effects of which are now doubled because you have 2 wires instead of 1). This creates a fire hazard because even though the circuit breaker is rated for a high current, and the wires themselves are rated for a high current, the connection point between them becomes overly resistive due to the loose connection and gets too hot at normally safe currents.
At any rate it's rediculously easy to fix and is probably not something you would want to negotiate over.
Jebus314 on
"The world is a mess, and I just need to rule it" - Dr Horrible
I just want to take a moment to say: you guys are great. You're really helping me go through this process in which I would otherwise be a deer in headlights.
What is double tapping and what are the implications?
Its when you place two conductors under one circuit breaker. Some breakers are designed for this (and are labeled as such) but if they're not, the the wires can come out or can draw too much power without tripping the breaker and start a fire if the house is trying to draw more power than the breaker can handle (for instance, if its a 150w breaker, and the house is drawing 200w). This last is VERY uncommon, and you'll probably only find it in older houses who never had the breaker replaced. This issue was discovered in the late 70s and modern circuit breakers will just kill the power.
So, I'm not an electrician but this doesn't sound right. I'm like 99% sure you can't draw more power through a circuit breaker than it's rated for regardless of what you connect to it. That's why it exists. Likewise you can't overvolt a circuit breaker. It is not a transformer and the transformer outside your house won't ever provide a higher voltage.
Yeah, that's what they're supposed to do. However, Federal Pacific, a major manufacturer of circuit breakers in the '60s, 70s, and 80s had a major flaw in the breakers that were made for them by Stab-Lok. In the breakers, if an individual breaker draws too much power for a circuit, it will NOT trip, and instead it will overheat and eventually catch on fire. Tests done have shown that 1 in 4 Federal Pacific boxes have this flaw. These fires have been known to burn down the entire house. So, if you're going to buy a house manufactured in that timeframe, you REALLY need to check out the breaker box and be careful of it.
Posts
what was missing?
The house was listed as having Natural Gas lines built into it, both in the MLS description and in the seller's property description at the house. This is rather important to me, as where I live Natural Gas heating costs significantly less than electric does where I live (to the tune of about $800/year on average). Natural Gas also heats a hell of a lot better than electric does (a Natural Gas furnace blows air at around 110 degrees while electric blows air at around 85 degrees). While the house was listed as currently being electric, the gas lines would have allowed me to switch prior to winter, and I've had made the money back in about three years, so it didn't worry me.
When we went through for the inspection, though, we found that there were no gas lines and there never were. It wasn't a situation where it was partially removed and then capped off. They just never existed.
This waiting game sucks.
If you ask for things like replacing carpets or windows, it can be better to get quotes and ask for the cash at closing rather than having them cheap out on fixing them.
Don't even worry about the appraisal, that's the sellers' thing to worry about getting screwed up.
Make sure someone is caring for the yard in between now and closing.
Change the locks as soon as you get the keys. They could have had unsavory tenets living there prior.
Those are just off the top of my head in the middle of the night. Have fun!
Most of the people she quoted me were ~300 for full house inspection and there was one on there for 585 (includes termite and radon). I went with 585 after seeing they had no complaint against them in the BBB since 05.
Yep, compared to the cost of the issues, it's cheap. Also check to make sure they're a member of http://www.ashi.org/ etc.
Here's what I got from the report:
His concerns:
- Outlets outside need covers on them.
- Outlet on back porch needs to be secured.
- Chimney needs to be sealed with something other than caulking.
- Toilet in master bath needs to be secured.
- Breaker box needs to not be double tapped.
Less concerning:
- Gutter screws coming out, need to be secured.
- Master bedroom ceiling is slightly bowing, possible water damage?
Is this too much?
Concerns 1, 2, and 4 seem like things you can handle yourself (careful w/r/to electricity). Do you ave an electrician you can talk to?
I wouldn't necessarily consider bowing ceiling a lesser concern. If he says it's not a big deal then perhaps you can ignore, but you might need to fix when you sell. replacing drywall and refinishing isn't cheap.
Personally, I would see if you could get the current owners to pay to have them both redone by certified people. If you can only get one, have them get a certified electrician to redo the breaker box. You can solve the Chimney issue by simply not having a fire in it until you can afford to get it fixed.
the breaker box is a big deal possibly
That's exactly it, it was just the mortar bits. So I'm going to try and get them to fix a lot of the things and if they refuse I'm going to get them to at least do the breaker.
The bowing ceiling is something to check out though.
Except for when the Double Tapping requires more voltage than the breaker box can handle and the box bursts into flames. That was a fun experience when I was 10. At the very least, you really need to get a certified electrician in there to look at it.
Agreed, but it basically just costs 1 new breaker per tap to fix unless the box is full.
Its when you place two conductors under one circuit breaker. Some breakers are designed for this (and are labeled as such) but if they're not, the the wires can come out or can draw too much power without tripping the breaker and start a fire if the house is trying to draw more power than the breaker can handle (for instance, if its a 150w breaker, and the house is drawing 200w). This last is VERY uncommon, and you'll probably only find it in older houses who never had the breaker replaced. This issue was discovered in the late 70s and modern circuit breakers will just kill the power.
Some home inspectors don't inspect the interior: you'll need to get a chimney inspection done as they'll inspect the flue, the damper, the interior mortar/liners. You'll want to know the state of the chimney before you start using it.
- Roof
- Water heater
- Cooling system and when the last time it was serviced
If your AC uses R-12 or R-22 Freon the supply is dwindling and prices rising due to the phase out, so if the system springs a leak you'll have to either do a retrofit or replace the entire unit. HVAC's have a lifespan of 10-20 years, so by knowing when it was installed you have an estimate timeframe.I'll have to look at the cooling system. I seem to remember hearing about it. I think the inspection guy said the furnace is old but in good condition. He said that if the temperature gets below 26 or something like that then it kicks in, otherwise it reverses the air from the AC unit. I'll look through the inspection report to be sure, though.
So, I'm not an electrician but this doesn't sound right. I'm like 99% sure you can't draw more power through a circuit breaker than it's rated for regardless of what you connect to it. That's why it exists. Likewise you can't overvolt a circuit breaker. It is not a transformer and the transformer outside your house won't ever provide a higher voltage.
The danger with double tapping seems to be loose wires. Basically the NEC states that you should never hook up more wires to any connection device than what that connection device is rated for. For a circuit breaker that usually means 1 wire. If you hook up two wires then there's a chance that the wires will come loose from normal contraction/expansion of the wires (the effects of which are now doubled because you have 2 wires instead of 1). This creates a fire hazard because even though the circuit breaker is rated for a high current, and the wires themselves are rated for a high current, the connection point between them becomes overly resistive due to the loose connection and gets too hot at normally safe currents.
At any rate it's rediculously easy to fix and is probably not something you would want to negotiate over.
Yeah, that's what they're supposed to do. However, Federal Pacific, a major manufacturer of circuit breakers in the '60s, 70s, and 80s had a major flaw in the breakers that were made for them by Stab-Lok. In the breakers, if an individual breaker draws too much power for a circuit, it will NOT trip, and instead it will overheat and eventually catch on fire. Tests done have shown that 1 in 4 Federal Pacific boxes have this flaw. These fires have been known to burn down the entire house. So, if you're going to buy a house manufactured in that timeframe, you REALLY need to check out the breaker box and be careful of it.