Perhaps I should explain myself. That post was an emotional outburst from the rebels now claiming the bodies were dead before they didn't shoot it down. I let my anger get the better of me. I do not actually want what I said to be done, but I won't lie and say the thought doesn't make me feel better.
In the end I do hope this is settled as peacefully as possible, but the blatant lies and disrespect for the deceased I guess is starting to get to me. I'm just grateful I didn't know anyone on the flight, and for those that do... my heart goes out to them.
Hey guys I just had a thought what if russia uses this a pretext to invade East Ukraine and restore "peace and order"?
Then WW3 would begin. But that won't happen, because Putin isn't crazy. He made a terrible mistake in thinking he could take East Ukraine as easily as Crimea, and has instead found a complete mess on his hands.
Putin isn't insane, just a thug who got too cocky.
AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
@muzzmuzz we've been covering this in the Ukranian thread, but "somebody" has been shooting at Ukrainian military planes since last weekend. A cargo plane was downed, which led to Poroshenko's refusal to discuss further truces and "somebody" shot down a Ukrainian fighter on weds.
Publicly Putin is going to double-down on the dastardly Ukranian government being responsible directly or indirectly, but privately, he's probably incredibly pissed that his "rebels" have brought serious international attention to his proxy war.
Publicly Putin is going to double-down on the dastardly Ukranian government being responsible directly or indirectly, but privately, he's probably incredibly pissed that his "rebels" have brought serious international attention to his proxy war.
He's essentially pissed all over the gains he made in Crimea thanks to this. AFAIK Crimea's situation played very well at home, and served as a strategic coup against NATO and a prestigous capstone for his legacy as he nears his twilight years. Over the last few months he's come to realise the deep shit he's got himself into as he's lost more and more control over the rebels in East Ukraine, but his PR tactics and brazenly open support in both war supplies and propaganda have meant that he left himself no exit strategy.
It seems likely from here on that the sanctions, which had already finally become quite severe, are going to be tightened considerably at the very least. Putin's support from industry oligarchs will evaporate, and there's a very real chance of Russia sliding to pariah state status for a considerable time. This is also at a time when Russia has to diversify its economy in a hurry, given that their resources will be running out in the not too far future. Total collapse of the state is not an impossible scenario, being isolated from the international community and left with few exports.
It's going to be a shitty time to be a Russian, that's for sure.
Or he's cackling with glee over the prospect of successfully selling the electorate yet another bald faced lie of how this only proves the antagonistical and incompetent nature of the conspiratorial western governments, them having yet again somehow failed because abloo abloo, bloo bloo bloo
He's a mercurial man.
Alright and in this next scene all the animals have AIDS.
Or he's cackling with glee over the prospect of successfully selling the electorate yet another bald faced lie of how this only proves the antagonistical and incompetent nature of the conspiratorial western governments, them having yet again somehow failed because abloo abloo, bloo bloo bloo
He's a mercurial man.
Support of the populace only gets you so far. I doubt Russian industry will have much further patience for him if he's threatening their bottom line with his belligerence.
The rebels know they fucked up and are about to get fucked without lube. In my version of a just world, they're given until monday to lay down all arms and surrender and any civilians left time to flee before ukraine invites the world to shock and awe them to hell, and the world obliges. Lets see how big of a crater we can make as a planet using conventional bombs.
How many people live in the cities the rebels hold?
that doesn't matter, or so Veevee has said in the other thread.
American lives are the only ones that matter, see.
The good news is that the people at the top are currently under indictment under RICO, including Hall. That said, Hall is seriously ill, and there are questions of if she will make it to trial.
What a pity. What a terrible shame.
I certainly hope that she is not in any pain / agony right as I type this.
and suggest that perhaps, just perhaps, people might say things they don't really mean when they're angry or upset.
Yeah that's right Russia, poke the badasses that live and train in a death world. That's sure to go as well for you as everything else has.
You can poke fun at us all you want, since our death world training has been superseded by American 'tactics' and close combat training. Apparently, the tried and true tactic of proper reconnaissance and light infantry warfare has been totally forgotten. That shit that would have been perfect in the Middle East, if we weren't forced to drive through enemy held valleys in Humvees cos that's what our big bro Murica does.
the rebels are now being accused of destroying evidence at the crime scene. also claims that they've removed bodies and wreckage, transporting them to Donetsk and Russia respectively.
AbsalonLands of Always WinterRegistered Userregular
If there is no evidence because it's been sabotaged, you usually assume the actor doing the sabotaging is guilty. That should be the message from the rest of the world to the rebels and Putin - leave the site alone or we will just decide the rebels did it with a buk provided by the Russian army.
this is disgusting.
and that no one is doing anything about it because their hands are tied behind their backs makes it all the worse.
GO HUMANITY!
Honestly. I understand that sending in a police force might make things worse, but these jackasses are getting away with murder and covering up the evidence in front of the whole world.
I'm pretty sure at this point no one with two brain cells to rub together is willing to give the Russian Federation the benefit of the doubt on anything
Which, could result in them being unfairly blamed for something.
This is te great test of whether or not we've really advanced as a civilization in the last hundred years.
We cannot allow ourselves to fall back on militarism and othering. That's the way people like Putin win.
The international system must pass this test, there is a world where might no longer makes right.
I don't think militarism is necessarily a step backwards, or proof of anything. This world isn't Star Trek, where peaceful negotiations solve every damn problem. I have a difficult time seeing humanity, no matter how advanced, not reserving such things as an option.
However, for everyone's sake, I hope this is solved without more bloodshed. Just happy my friend closest to that part of the world is in Germany. That should be a safe distance. Ideally.
Militarism is not the same as the military having a place. Obviously this problem is also one that requires military intervention. It's just that it should only be (ideally) a small part of a greater effort to resolve this conflict. Bombing them away is not going to solve the problem, it doesn't work in gaza and it won't work in Ukraine.
The Gaza comparison doesn't really hold. This isn't a bunch of personally aggrieved individuals trapped in basically a prison colony. It a bunch of Russians pursuing expansionism under a pretty transparent cloak of ethnic solidarity.
You'd think Europe of all places would have learned that you need to answer that behavior with strength right from the start.
But the UK Germany France etc couldn't be bothered to stop trading with Russia over invading Crimea. Blame is a funny thing to divvy out, but at least a couple of these 300 bodies can be laid at Merkel, Cameron et alľs feet.
Yeah that's right Russia, poke the badasses that live and train in a death world. That's sure to go as well for you as everything else has.
You can poke fun at us all you want, since our death world training has been superseded by American 'tactics' and close combat training. Apparently, the tried and true tactic of proper reconnaissance and light infantry warfare has been totally forgotten. That shit that would have been perfect in the Middle East, if we weren't forced to drive through enemy held valleys in Humvees cos that's what our big bro Murica does.
Wasn't poking fun, Angry Australians are a legitimately terrifying thing and the last thing anyone wants to be on the receiving end of.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Tony Abbott is a pretty repugnant person.
But I'd give him a high five for calling out Putin's bull.
This is te great test of whether or not we've really advanced as a civilization in the last hundred years.
We cannot allow ourselves to fall back on militarism and othering. That's the way people like Putin win.
The international system must pass this test, there is a world where might no longer makes right.
I don't think militarism is necessarily a step backwards, or proof of anything. This world isn't Star Trek, where peaceful negotiations solve every damn problem. I have a difficult time seeing humanity, no matter how advanced, not reserving such things as an option.
However, for everyone's sake, I hope this is solved without more bloodshed. Just happy my friend closest to that part of the world is in Germany. That should be a safe distance. Ideally.
Militarism is not the same as the military having a place. Obviously this problem is also one that requires military intervention. It's just that it should only be (ideally) a small part of a greater effort to resolve this conflict. Bombing them away is not going to solve the problem, it doesn't work in gaza and it won't work in Ukraine.
The Gaza comparison doesn't really hold. This isn't a bunch of personally aggrieved individuals trapped in basically a prison colony. It a bunch of Russians pursuing expansionism under a pretty transparent cloak of ethnic solidarity.
You'd think Europe of all places would have learned that you need to answer that behavior with strength right from the start.
But the UK Germany France etc couldn't be bothered to stop trading with Russia over invading Crimea. Blame is a funny thing to divvy out, but at least a couple of these 300 bodies can be laid at Merkel, Cameron et alľs feet.
The problems with taking action in crimea came in several flavors.
1. Military action against the "pro Russians" would have required getting the US on board since I'm not convinced the European powers have sufficient force projection to challenge Russia.
2. I'm skeptical that the American people led by a president who'se approach to militarism could be best described as thoughtful and opposed by the most obstinante party in the nations history would go to war over a peninsula that 99% of americans had never heard of.
3. If Russia doesn't immediately back down (which putin wouldn't) we'd be doing world war 3.
4. A signifigant portion (probably not a majority) actually wanted to be part of Russia.
5. the Ukraine was not in a position to ask for forign military intervention since it's government was in a transitional period.
I'm sorry, but what the fuck is up with beekeeping guy?
obviously he had a few too many vodkas the night before, woke-up late and hungover and by the time he reported for duty the bee keeping outfit was all the had left.
This is te great test of whether or not we've really advanced as a civilization in the last hundred years.
We cannot allow ourselves to fall back on militarism and othering. That's the way people like Putin win.
The international system must pass this test, there is a world where might no longer makes right.
I don't think militarism is necessarily a step backwards, or proof of anything. This world isn't Star Trek, where peaceful negotiations solve every damn problem. I have a difficult time seeing humanity, no matter how advanced, not reserving such things as an option.
However, for everyone's sake, I hope this is solved without more bloodshed. Just happy my friend closest to that part of the world is in Germany. That should be a safe distance. Ideally.
Militarism is not the same as the military having a place. Obviously this problem is also one that requires military intervention. It's just that it should only be (ideally) a small part of a greater effort to resolve this conflict. Bombing them away is not going to solve the problem, it doesn't work in gaza and it won't work in Ukraine.
The Gaza comparison doesn't really hold. This isn't a bunch of personally aggrieved individuals trapped in basically a prison colony. It a bunch of Russians pursuing expansionism under a pretty transparent cloak of ethnic solidarity.
You'd think Europe of all places would have learned that you need to answer that behavior with strength right from the start.
But the UK Germany France etc couldn't be bothered to stop trading with Russia over invading Crimea. Blame is a funny thing to divvy out, but at least a couple of these 300 bodies can be laid at Merkel, Cameron et alľs feet.
The problems with taking action in crimea came in several flavors.
1. Military action against the "pro Russians" would have required getting the US on board since I'm not convinced the European powers have sufficient force projection to challenge Russia.
2. I'm skeptical that the American people led by a president who'se approach to militarism could be best described as thoughtful and opposed by the most obstinante party in the nations history would go to war over a peninsula that 99% of americans had never heard of.
3. If Russia doesn't immediately back down (which putin wouldn't) we'd be doing world war 3.
4. A signifigant portion (probably not a majority) actually wanted to be part of Russia.
5. the Ukraine was not in a position to ask for forign military intervention since it's government was in a transitional period.
Just from a laymans perspective:
Why cant we send in a battalion of un blue helmets to guard the crash site and the investigation.
This way Putin gets to show good faith by not vetoing it and we get a independent investigation.
This is te great test of whether or not we've really advanced as a civilization in the last hundred years.
We cannot allow ourselves to fall back on militarism and othering. That's the way people like Putin win.
The international system must pass this test, there is a world where might no longer makes right.
I don't think militarism is necessarily a step backwards, or proof of anything. This world isn't Star Trek, where peaceful negotiations solve every damn problem. I have a difficult time seeing humanity, no matter how advanced, not reserving such things as an option.
However, for everyone's sake, I hope this is solved without more bloodshed. Just happy my friend closest to that part of the world is in Germany. That should be a safe distance. Ideally.
Militarism is not the same as the military having a place. Obviously this problem is also one that requires military intervention. It's just that it should only be (ideally) a small part of a greater effort to resolve this conflict. Bombing them away is not going to solve the problem, it doesn't work in gaza and it won't work in Ukraine.
The Gaza comparison doesn't really hold. This isn't a bunch of personally aggrieved individuals trapped in basically a prison colony. It a bunch of Russians pursuing expansionism under a pretty transparent cloak of ethnic solidarity.
You'd think Europe of all places would have learned that you need to answer that behavior with strength right from the start.
But the UK Germany France etc couldn't be bothered to stop trading with Russia over invading Crimea. Blame is a funny thing to divvy out, but at least a couple of these 300 bodies can be laid at Merkel, Cameron et alľs feet.
The problems with taking action in crimea came in several flavors.
1. Military action against the "pro Russians" would have required getting the US on board since I'm not convinced the European powers have sufficient force projection to challenge Russia.
2. I'm skeptical that the American people led by a president who'se approach to militarism could be best described as thoughtful and opposed by the most obstinante party in the nations history would go to war over a peninsula that 99% of americans had never heard of.
3. If Russia doesn't immediately back down (which putin wouldn't) we'd be doing world war 3.
4. A signifigant portion (probably not a majority) actually wanted to be part of Russia.
5. the Ukraine was not in a position to ask for forign military intervention since it's government was in a transitional period.
Just from a laymans perspective:
Why cant we send in a battalion of un blue helmets to guard the crash site and the investigation.
This way Putin gets to show good faith by not vetoing it and we get a independent investigation.
because he will veto any such proposal any deployment of U.N. peacekeeping troops requires the U.N. security council's approval.
This is te great test of whether or not we've really advanced as a civilization in the last hundred years.
We cannot allow ourselves to fall back on militarism and othering. That's the way people like Putin win.
The international system must pass this test, there is a world where might no longer makes right.
I don't think militarism is necessarily a step backwards, or proof of anything. This world isn't Star Trek, where peaceful negotiations solve every damn problem. I have a difficult time seeing humanity, no matter how advanced, not reserving such things as an option.
However, for everyone's sake, I hope this is solved without more bloodshed. Just happy my friend closest to that part of the world is in Germany. That should be a safe distance. Ideally.
Militarism is not the same as the military having a place. Obviously this problem is also one that requires military intervention. It's just that it should only be (ideally) a small part of a greater effort to resolve this conflict. Bombing them away is not going to solve the problem, it doesn't work in gaza and it won't work in Ukraine.
The Gaza comparison doesn't really hold. This isn't a bunch of personally aggrieved individuals trapped in basically a prison colony. It a bunch of Russians pursuing expansionism under a pretty transparent cloak of ethnic solidarity.
You'd think Europe of all places would have learned that you need to answer that behavior with strength right from the start.
But the UK Germany France etc couldn't be bothered to stop trading with Russia over invading Crimea. Blame is a funny thing to divvy out, but at least a couple of these 300 bodies can be laid at Merkel, Cameron et alľs feet.
The problems with taking action in crimea came in several flavors.
1. Military action against the "pro Russians" would have required getting the US on board since I'm not convinced the European powers have sufficient force projection to challenge Russia.
2. I'm skeptical that the American people led by a president who'se approach to militarism could be best described as thoughtful and opposed by the most obstinante party in the nations history would go to war over a peninsula that 99% of americans had never heard of.
3. If Russia doesn't immediately back down (which putin wouldn't) we'd be doing world war 3.
4. A signifigant portion (probably not a majority) actually wanted to be part of Russia.
5. the Ukraine was not in a position to ask for forign military intervention since it's government was in a transitional period.
Just from a laymans perspective:
Why cant we send in a battalion of un blue helmets to guard the crash site and the investigation.
This way Putin gets to show good faith by not vetoing it and we get a independent investigation.
Putin can and would veto it.
Steam: SanderJK Origin: SanderJK
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
This is te great test of whether or not we've really advanced as a civilization in the last hundred years.
We cannot allow ourselves to fall back on militarism and othering. That's the way people like Putin win.
The international system must pass this test, there is a world where might no longer makes right.
I don't think militarism is necessarily a step backwards, or proof of anything. This world isn't Star Trek, where peaceful negotiations solve every damn problem. I have a difficult time seeing humanity, no matter how advanced, not reserving such things as an option.
However, for everyone's sake, I hope this is solved without more bloodshed. Just happy my friend closest to that part of the world is in Germany. That should be a safe distance. Ideally.
Militarism is not the same as the military having a place. Obviously this problem is also one that requires military intervention. It's just that it should only be (ideally) a small part of a greater effort to resolve this conflict. Bombing them away is not going to solve the problem, it doesn't work in gaza and it won't work in Ukraine.
The Gaza comparison doesn't really hold. This isn't a bunch of personally aggrieved individuals trapped in basically a prison colony. It a bunch of Russians pursuing expansionism under a pretty transparent cloak of ethnic solidarity.
You'd think Europe of all places would have learned that you need to answer that behavior with strength right from the start.
But the UK Germany France etc couldn't be bothered to stop trading with Russia over invading Crimea. Blame is a funny thing to divvy out, but at least a couple of these 300 bodies can be laid at Merkel, Cameron et alľs feet.
The problems with taking action in crimea came in several flavors.
1. Military action against the "pro Russians" would have required getting the US on board since I'm not convinced the European powers have sufficient force projection to challenge Russia.
2. I'm skeptical that the American people led by a president who'se approach to militarism could be best described as thoughtful and opposed by the most obstinante party in the nations history would go to war over a peninsula that 99% of americans had never heard of.
3. If Russia doesn't immediately back down (which putin wouldn't) we'd be doing world war 3.
4. A signifigant portion (probably not a majority) actually wanted to be part of Russia.
5. the Ukraine was not in a position to ask for forign military intervention since it's government was in a transitional period.
Just from a laymans perspective:
Why cant we send in a battalion of un blue helmets to guard the crash site and the investigation.
This way Putin gets to show good faith by not vetoing it and we get a independent investigation.
Putin can and would veto it.
In that case bring it up for a vote anyways.
Might as well make him look like the shit stain he actually is.
Trace on
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
I'm reading this all as 'colossal fuck-up twice removed from anyone actually in charge,' while Russia can't seem to not leave it alone for reasons beyond understanding. Nobody's at the wheel.
I'm reading this all as 'colossal fuck-up twice removed from anyone actually in charge,' while Russia can't seem to not leave it alone for reasons beyond understanding. Nobody's at the wheel.
The fact the rebels were still a problem at all is because Russia flexed Ukraine into not doing anything at all for months, letting the separatists run rampant over eastern Ukraine. They're an untrained gaggle of gun toting rebels that have had free reign since March. They were going to take that too far, eventually. Ukraine asked for western help long ago, but again, since Russia started playing bouncer to the the Ukraine/Crimea party, everyone just kind of had to sit and watch it play out. This is absolutely something that falls on Russia's shoulders, among other people (The rebels themselves, for instance).
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In the end I do hope this is settled as peacefully as possible, but the blatant lies and disrespect for the deceased I guess is starting to get to me. I'm just grateful I didn't know anyone on the flight, and for those that do... my heart goes out to them.
Then WW3 would begin. But that won't happen, because Putin isn't crazy. He made a terrible mistake in thinking he could take East Ukraine as easily as Crimea, and has instead found a complete mess on his hands.
Putin isn't insane, just a thug who got too cocky.
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
He's essentially pissed all over the gains he made in Crimea thanks to this. AFAIK Crimea's situation played very well at home, and served as a strategic coup against NATO and a prestigous capstone for his legacy as he nears his twilight years. Over the last few months he's come to realise the deep shit he's got himself into as he's lost more and more control over the rebels in East Ukraine, but his PR tactics and brazenly open support in both war supplies and propaganda have meant that he left himself no exit strategy.
It seems likely from here on that the sanctions, which had already finally become quite severe, are going to be tightened considerably at the very least. Putin's support from industry oligarchs will evaporate, and there's a very real chance of Russia sliding to pariah state status for a considerable time. This is also at a time when Russia has to diversify its economy in a hurry, given that their resources will be running out in the not too far future. Total collapse of the state is not an impossible scenario, being isolated from the international community and left with few exports.
It's going to be a shitty time to be a Russian, that's for sure.
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
He's a mercurial man.
I got a little excited when I saw your ship.
Support of the populace only gets you so far. I doubt Russian industry will have much further patience for him if he's threatening their bottom line with his belligerence.
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
The ABC News blog provides a good up to date roundup of the incident from an Australian perspective. Looks like our government's not going to be tip-toeing around Russia's involvement in this. The flipside is that Russia's not happy with our government and is pretty much refusing to talk to them at all right now.
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
Just going to leave this right here
and suggest that perhaps, just perhaps, people might say things they don't really mean when they're angry or upset.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Yeah that's right Russia, poke the badasses that live and train in a death world. That's sure to go as well for you as everything else has.
Well, maybe they learned about The Emu War, and thought "they lost against birds, how tough can they be?".
On the flip side, I'm pretty sure most of the Aussie army is Emu's.
Your move Russia.
You can poke fun at us all you want, since our death world training has been superseded by American 'tactics' and close combat training. Apparently, the tried and true tactic of proper reconnaissance and light infantry warfare has been totally forgotten. That shit that would have been perfect in the Middle East, if we weren't forced to drive through enemy held valleys in Humvees cos that's what our big bro Murica does.
Russia Today London Correspondent resigns in protest over plane crash coverage.
They really want to make themselves look guilty.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28383625
and that no one is doing anything about it because their hands are tied behind their backs makes it all the worse.
GO HUMANITY!
Honestly. I understand that sending in a police force might make things worse, but these jackasses are getting away with murder and covering up the evidence in front of the whole world.
Which, could result in them being unfairly blamed for something.
But tough tits, I say.
The Gaza comparison doesn't really hold. This isn't a bunch of personally aggrieved individuals trapped in basically a prison colony. It a bunch of Russians pursuing expansionism under a pretty transparent cloak of ethnic solidarity.
You'd think Europe of all places would have learned that you need to answer that behavior with strength right from the start.
But the UK Germany France etc couldn't be bothered to stop trading with Russia over invading Crimea. Blame is a funny thing to divvy out, but at least a couple of these 300 bodies can be laid at Merkel, Cameron et alľs feet.
Apparently this guy went to high school with my fiance.
Wasn't poking fun, Angry Australians are a legitimately terrifying thing and the last thing anyone wants to be on the receiving end of.
But I'd give him a high five for calling out Putin's bull.
The problems with taking action in crimea came in several flavors.
1. Military action against the "pro Russians" would have required getting the US on board since I'm not convinced the European powers have sufficient force projection to challenge Russia.
2. I'm skeptical that the American people led by a president who'se approach to militarism could be best described as thoughtful and opposed by the most obstinante party in the nations history would go to war over a peninsula that 99% of americans had never heard of.
3. If Russia doesn't immediately back down (which putin wouldn't) we'd be doing world war 3.
4. A signifigant portion (probably not a majority) actually wanted to be part of Russia.
5. the Ukraine was not in a position to ask for forign military intervention since it's government was in a transitional period.
I'm sorry, but what the fuck is up with beekeeping guy?
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
obviously he had a few too many vodkas the night before, woke-up late and hungover and by the time he reported for duty the bee keeping outfit was all the had left.
Just from a laymans perspective:
Why cant we send in a battalion of un blue helmets to guard the crash site and the investigation.
This way Putin gets to show good faith by not vetoing it and we get a independent investigation.
because he will veto any such proposal any deployment of U.N. peacekeeping troops requires the U.N. security council's approval.
Marvel's just getting really into their movie advertising?
Putin can and would veto it.
In that case bring it up for a vote anyways.
Might as well make him look like the shit stain he actually is.
The fact the rebels were still a problem at all is because Russia flexed Ukraine into not doing anything at all for months, letting the separatists run rampant over eastern Ukraine. They're an untrained gaggle of gun toting rebels that have had free reign since March. They were going to take that too far, eventually. Ukraine asked for western help long ago, but again, since Russia started playing bouncer to the the Ukraine/Crimea party, everyone just kind of had to sit and watch it play out. This is absolutely something that falls on Russia's shoulders, among other people (The rebels themselves, for instance).