Why real Chrisitans tolerate the Mcdonald's non-demoninational, evangelical Churches is beyond me
Fixed, because Baptist churches choose their own interptetation of the Bible, be it liberal or Conservative. James Dobson, et. al. are non-demoninational, evangelical "Christians."
Well as a "real" Christian (I'm just a lot more sane, if I do say so myself) we DO despise faux-hip, Xtreme, Left Behind-loving, "Love Thy Neighbor"-ignroing Mega-churches run by charlitans and snake-oil salesmen. They are no better than for-profit cults, stunting young minds and stealing money.
But, the problem is, they are damn huge and large in number. It is not easy to opoose arch-conservative evangelicals because, well, Christians like be believe they have a right to interpret the Bible as they wish. We believe in freedom of religion. And thankfully some of us kinder, more reasonable Christians are starting to find our voices.
I could care less if churches have youth meetings where they play Halo or paintball or whatever. It's a social thing, mostly. But it does strike me as faux and shallow, in general. I don't need to listen to a Chrisitan pop band, or hang out talking about lame "Chicken Soup for the Teenage Christian Soul" books.
My faith is gospel music, talking about the Letters and the Apostles, adovating for freedom and equality. That's what being a Christian is to me.
Now Premillenial dispensationalism, the crazy-ass "Christian" Biblical interpretation from which the Left Behind books are based, is full of massive amounts of crap. And so are "Christian" apocolyptic novels and "oh noes, rap music is satan talking, and gays are gonna end the world" books are also full of crap.
as a side note, I don't really understand why it's often acceptable to stereotype Christians around here..
Because this country has already over reacted to the crazy muslims and the crazy jews are both too few in number and don't bother you.
On the other hand, crazy christians bother me at my doorstep, send their children to weirdo camps, popularized shit lit like "Left Behind" in order to create a seperate "christian" universe, and elected GW Bush two times even after he's essentially duped them (Look for the books of the two guys who ran Bush's christian department and quit because he was scamming the fundies).
Also, this board is pretty liberal, and fundie christian is about the opposite of liberal.
Abortion? Check.
Gay Marriage? Check.
Stem cell research? Check.
I could go on, but you get the point.
One thing I'd like to note about why shit like this works for church youth groups is that they harness the power of peer pressure. They get you in the door and get you all comfortable and friendly with the "saved" kids, and then, through the magical power of applying social pressure to naive and unwary teens, the church suddenly has young converts! Because, seriously, when you're a pimply faced fourteen year old that just wants to play Halo, how likely are you to tell these guys to fuck off with the Jesus talk?
Peer Pressure: maintaining religion's stranglehold on humanity since for fucking ever.
as a side note, I don't really understand why it's often acceptable to stereotype Christians around here..
Because this country has already over reacted to the crazy muslims and the crazy jews are both too few in number and don't bother you.
On the other hand, crazy christians bother me at my doorstep, send their children to weirdo camps, popularized shit lit like "Left Behind" in order to create a seperate "christian" universe, and elected GW Bush two times even after he's essentially duped them (Look for the books of the two guys who ran Bush's christian department and quit because he was scamming the fundies).
Also, this board is pretty liberal, and fundie christian is about the opposite of liberal.
Abortion? Check.
Gay Marriage? Check.
Stem cell research? Check.
I could go on, but you get the point.
I agree with this point. While I have no idea of the muslim faith and its practices, all I know is that Christans (of any type) are the ones producing stuff like left behind and thier own universe. At my Synagogue, the Rabbi actually asks why they want to convert and to think about it deeply before. What I see from my local Chruches here, they will take anyone to be "saved".
And they have a thing for calling anything "Christan". Case in point an editorial in my local newspaper said that Canada is a "Christan" country and was founded as such to which another person replied, "No, Canada is the faith of the Native Americans." And for a large part of History, both the Jews and any other non christian people were procuted by so called Christians. I think they have one of the most bloodiest history in Religious terms.
Christian churches tend to have much more competition, within the States, especially since people migrate so often and thus often have no family tradition influencing their choice of worship site.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I'm not trying to be rude here, but that's a pretty harsh stereotype you laid out. You really should try to get out and meet more diverse Christians.
I doubt very much that anybody in this forum is posting from a spiritual vacuum, nor is it a rare feat to find and interact with actual Christians. If you object to the things people say, you should find firmer ground than suggesting that they must not know many.
Look: I know, and have attended in the past, a very moderate, sane, reasonable church. It is the sort of place that, were I a religious man, I would choose to attend. It's sober and dignified, the pastor is very educated and intelligent and his sermons are couched in a strong background of Biblical and secular history, with messages I can largely agree with - "love thy neighbor", et cetera. The atmosphere is a bit WASPy and starch-collared but I actually approve of this since, for me anyway, spirituality seems like it should be serious business.
It's a great church. My grandparents go there. So do all their eighty-year-old friends. Sometimes there's enough of them to fill up the pews a third of the way back.
Meanwhile, the repellently conservative hellfire-and-brimstone outfit down the road is packing them into a sanctuary that could double as an indoor football arena, and they're the ones dispatching the folk-rocker-looking dudes down to the art district on the weekends, which I'm sure has colored my opinion on the matter. That said: obviously there's nothing inherently conservative about the Xtreem approach, but I don't feel I'm being unfair in being a bit suspicious of anyone puts on the uniform of the counterculture to sell something that's anything but. It seems dishonest.
Here's what it all boils down to for me: whatever the sincerity or lack thereof of people who skate for Jesus or play Halo for Jesus or build model trains for Jesus, it strikes me that there's something a bit crass about mixing religious and secular interests like that: it feels to me like it demeans both and improves neither. Somebody should be a skater because they really enjoy skating, not as an opportunity to make converts or sell Amway. Similarly, if you think matters of the spirit are important, than surely they're important enough to speak of directly rather than smuggling them behind the skirts of pop music or video games.
as a side note, I don't really understand why it's often acceptable to stereotype Christians around here..
Because this country has already over reacted to the crazy muslims and the crazy jews are both too few in number and don't bother you.
On the other hand, crazy christians bother me at my doorstep, send their children to weirdo camps, popularized shit lit like "Left Behind" in order to create a seperate "christian" universe, and elected GW Bush two times even after he's essentially duped them (Look for the books of the two guys who ran Bush's christian department and quit because he was scamming the fundies).
Also, this board is pretty liberal, and fundie christian is about the opposite of liberal.
Abortion? Check.
Gay Marriage? Check.
Stem cell research? Check.
I could go on, but you get the point.
I agree with this point. While I have no idea of the muslim faith and its practices, all I know is that Christans (of any type) are the ones producing stuff like left behind and thier own universe. At my Synagogue, the Rabbi actually asks why they want to convert and to think about it deeply before. What I see from my local Chruches here, they will take anyone to be "saved".
And they have a thing for calling anything "Christan". Case in point an editorial in my local newspaper said that Canada is a "Christan" country and was founded as such to which another person replied, "No, Canada is the faith of the Native Americans." And for a large part of History, both the Jews and any other non christian people were procuted by so called Christians. I think they have one of the most bloodiest history in Religious terms.
So it's OK to stereotype, as long as you are stereotyping a group of people you don't like, or disagree with their views? Oh well, I guess your views of "open and accepting" are different from mine.
And to everything you just said, Jacobkosh- I completely agree that many churches do seem smarmy and fake, just to get rich members to give them money... but I hope that the people on this forum who are not Christians please remember not all churches are like that! It cannot be a blanket statement to all Christians.
Much like how some of you feel that video games and Xtreme sports to bring in youth kind of cover the real intention of their message, I understand what you mean... I feel that many churches these days use money as their real interest, rather than truly reaching out to others through the gospel. Many others said earlier that they are just going for quantity rather than quality. It really is a shame that some churches have to do that. At the same time though, I feel that institutions (be religious or whatever) do need to create common interests with the communities to reach out to them, even if it's just to let community members know what kind of things they do. So it's kind of mixed for me.
Oh, and Jakob, the reason I thought you should go meet more Christians is because this statement you made:
But in my admittedly limited experience, the Christians who wear flannels, reek of patchouli, and hang out in my town's local scenester haunts are still espousing the same creepy Southern Baptist stuff as the rest.
At least this is better than the fucking insane blokes that stand in front of the school library and literally scream at people about their sins. And really, Halo isn't that un-xian. It espouses fighting for one's race, country, fighting for good and all that. It's just patriotism mixed with the black and white battle between good/evil wrapped up in sci-fi themes. Not to mention the story (in game) is completely throw-away.
METAzraeL on
dream a little dream or you could live a little dream
sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
I prefer the crazy fundies who stand out in public and rant and rave. You automatically know they're crazy and can therefore easily ignore their loud brand of stupid. It's the clean cut and well spoken fundies that I can't stand. They'll preach the exact same message as Reverend McNutso on the corner but their presentation means that people actually believe their message has some merit. And thus you have morons who believe that God was punishing New Orleans and every soldier who dies in Iraq is because America is becoming more tolerant of gays, thanks to some idiot preacher who is hoping and praying to be alive for the rapture. :roll:
One thing I'd like to note about why shit like this works for church youth groups is that they harness the power of peer pressure. They get you in the door and get you all comfortable and friendly with the "saved" kids, and then, through the magical power of applying social pressure to naive and unwary teens, the church suddenly has young converts! Because, seriously, when you're a pimply faced fourteen year old that just wants to play Halo, how likely are you to tell these guys to fuck off with the Jesus talk?
Peer Pressure: maintaining religion's stranglehold on humanity since for fucking ever.
At least when you're waving a sword in front of some heathens you're being honest about the whole mess.
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
At least this is better than the fucking insane blokes that stand in front of the school library and literally scream at people about their sins. And really, Halo isn't that un-xian. It espouses fighting for one's race, country, fighting for good and all that. It's just patriotism mixed with the black and white battle between good/evil wrapped up in sci-fi themes. Not to mention the story (in game) is completely throw-away.
hah, there's a bloke like that who pops up in the CBD sometimes. Mad as a hatter.
I do have qualms about militarised christianity, and if you google around you'll find some truly scary people - forget jesus camp and praying to W, these guys are hoarding grenades for jesus - but playing halo really isn't at all on the same level. Its just another sad attempt at making religion appeal to a class of people who largely know better than to consider it relevant to their lives. Most of these 'hip' churches pull people in because they've become a substitute social world - some megachurches have whole malls built around them. They're appealing to the isolated and lonely for that reason. But that's not really faith, its desperation for human contact. I find it sad more than anything.
I prefer the crazy fundies who stand out in public and rant and rave. You automatically know they're crazy and can therefore easily ignore their loud brand of stupid. It's the clean cut and well spoken fundies that I can't stand. They'll preach the exact same message as Reverend McNutso on the corner but their presentation means that people actually believe their message has some merit. And thus you have morons who believe that God was punishing New Orleans and every soldier who dies in Iraq is because America is becoming more tolerant of gays, thanks to some idiot preacher who is hoping and praying to be alive for the rapture. :roll:
Hm, you're right. I guess when I said 'better' I was thinking 'less offensive,' but that does mean that it's just more subtle.
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sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
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HarrierThe Star Spangled ManRegistered Userregular
At least this is better than the fucking insane blokes that stand in front of the school library and literally scream at people about their sins. And really, Halo isn't that un-xian. It espouses fighting for one's race, country, fighting for good and all that. It's just patriotism mixed with the black and white battle between good/evil wrapped up in sci-fi themes. Not to mention the story (in game) is completely throw-away.
hah, there's a bloke like that who pops up in the CBD sometimes. Mad as a hatter.
I do have qualms about militarised christianity, and if you google around you'll find some truly scary people - forget jesus camp and praying to W, these guys are hoarding grenades for jesus - but playing halo really isn't at all on the same level. Its just another sad attempt at making religion appeal to a class of people who largely know better than to consider it relevant to their lives. Most of these 'hip' churches pull people in because they've become a substitute social world - some megachurches have whole malls built around them. They're appealing to the isolated and lonely for that reason. But that's not really faith, its desperation for human contact. I find it sad more than anything.
The Christian ethic is one heavily grounded in community- given that we are all, ostensibly, members of the Body of Christ. So hypothetically it's a good idea to reach out to those who have isolated themselves. However, this doesn't strike me as providing community so much as activity; an excitement and an occupation of the mind that doesn't truly connect people to each other. Isn't Halo, even in multiplayer, essentially a single man effort? It's you against the hordes. It individuates more than it fosters community.
I'll ignore the part about Christianity's irrelevance to young people being a case of 'knowing better.'
Harrier on
I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
At least this is better than the fucking insane blokes that stand in front of the school library and literally scream at people about their sins. And really, Halo isn't that un-xian. It espouses fighting for one's race, country, fighting for good and all that. It's just patriotism mixed with the black and white battle between good/evil wrapped up in sci-fi themes. Not to mention the story (in game) is completely throw-away.
hah, there's a bloke like that who pops up in the CBD sometimes. Mad as a hatter.
I do have qualms about militarised christianity, and if you google around you'll find some truly scary people - forget jesus camp and praying to W, these guys are hoarding grenades for jesus - but playing halo really isn't at all on the same level. Its just another sad attempt at making religion appeal to a class of people who largely know better than to consider it relevant to their lives. Most of these 'hip' churches pull people in because they've become a substitute social world - some megachurches have whole malls built around them. They're appealing to the isolated and lonely for that reason. But that's not really faith, its desperation for human contact. I find it sad more than anything.
Ironically (or maybe luckily), the kind of human contact you get in church doesn't usually lead to the far more interesting form of human contact.
Churches are basically just playing the community center role. They have the advantage of being better able to turn people away who don't fit in or who don't appeal to earlier members, unlike actual community centers.
The Christian ethic is one heavily grounded in community- given that we are all, ostensibly, members of the Body of Christ. So hypothetically it's a good idea to reach out to those who have isolated themselves. However, this doesn't strike me as providing community so much as activity; an excitement and an occupation of the mind that doesn't truly connect people to each other. Isn't Halo, even in multiplayer, essentially a single man effort? It's you against the hordes. It individuates more than it fosters community.
I'll ignore the part about Christianity's irrelevance to young people being a case of 'knowing better.'
its not about people 'isolating themselves', and that's something of an accusatory tone to take modern society is inherently isolating, much more so over the last century or so. Most people are more lonely than they're willing admit, and many are chronically so. In that light, the efforts of some churches to compensate for that can seem like a kindness, but since it comes at a price (act like we say or we'll kick you out) it actually strikes me as quite manipulative. LAN games are quite social, too.
I haven't had many good experiences with 'hip' evangelicals. "What's that? You want me to play soccer with you? Hell yeah, I want to play. I'm bringing my friends, too. What's that? We're going to talk about Jesus now? Well, it's great that you neglected to tell me that until I got here to play with you."
I prefer the 'at your door, and with a Bible' type.
"Oh please doorknocker knock on my door
So I can split your bible in two as before"
haha, that reminds me of the time that I woke up to somebody knocking on the door, so I stumbled out half-naked and answered it. I scared that Jehovah's chick so bad with my manly sinflesh, she barely took the time to hand me whatever church flier thing she had.
The one time I went to church (extenuating circumstances and all that), it was sooo painful. Maybe if they worked on giving sermons that didn't make people cringe they wouldn't have to seduce people into the church with vidyagames and candy. Or maybe if they started helping people instead of taking their money :P
METAzraeL on
dream a little dream or you could live a little dream
sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
CHRISTIANS DO FUN THINGS AND LIKE TO GET OTHER PEOPLE TO JOIN IN. POSSIBLY TO CONVERT THEM
SHOCKING EXPOSE
So yeah I went to a youth group when I was a kid and to the best of my knowledge I haven't been all indoctrinated up in dis. They sometimes played soccer. I mean, what the fuck? What kind of faux-hip bullshit is that? Don't they realize that soccer was invented by pagans as a way of praising vishnu?
And thus you have morons who believe that God was punishing New Orleans and every soldier who dies in Iraq is because America is becoming more tolerant of gays, thanks to some idiot preacher who is hoping and praying to be alive for the rapture. :roll:
Your comment is ignorant of the current situation in America and only addresses the extreme outliers. Your statement seems to suggest that the outliers are the mainstream, and as such the statement is misleading. I hope you are just misinformed and not purposely malicious.
And thus you have morons who believe that God was punishing New Orleans and every soldier who dies in Iraq is because America is becoming more tolerant of gays, thanks to some idiot preacher who is hoping and praying to be alive for the rapture. :roll:
Your comment is ignorant of the current situation in America and only addresses the extreme outliers. Your statement seems to suggest that the outliers are the mainstream, and as such the statement is misleading. I hope you are just misinformed and not purposely malicious.
It suggests nothing of the sort unless you're looking really really hard for some way to claim you're hard done by. This is what gives me the shits about internet christians. The endless quest for martyrdom by seeking perfidy in plain statements.
And thus you have morons who believe that God was punishing New Orleans and every soldier who dies in Iraq is because America is becoming more tolerant of gays, thanks to some idiot preacher who is hoping and praying to be alive for the rapture. :roll:
Your comment is ignorant of the current situation in America and only addresses the extreme outliers. Your statement seems to suggest that the outliers are the mainstream, and as such the statement is misleading. I hope you are just misinformed and not purposely malicious.
It suggests nothing of the sort unless you're looking really really hard for some way to claim you're hard done by. This is what gives me the shits about internet christians. The endless quest for martyrdom by seeking perfidy in plain statements.
Maybe I would not be so jumpy if people like you and other Internet atheists would not blame EVERYTHING on Christians. Maybe I act this way because Christianity is the new boogieman.
Their reasoning is the same as a church softball, bowling, paintball league. A bunch of people like to do activity "X", maybe we should get together and do "X" together. God calls us to be a community, so let's do "X" together and if some non-believer come to the "X game" then great.
Even if Activity X is explicitly anti-religion?
I guess I don't know, though: how explicitly anti-religion is Halo? I mean, the Covenant seem pretty obviously modelled after messianic religions, but maybe it comes off more in Wikipedia than in the actual games. At the very least, it reminds me a lot of Final Fantasy 10's not-so-subtle attack on the Catholic Church.
Again, good evangelical churches are against religion in the sense that you are deeming it. They would advocate relationship, grace, liberty, freedom in Christ and not bondage or blind adherence to a religious system.
Also, keep in mind that there is a VAST difference between an evangelical Christian church and Catholicism/the RCC.
as a side note, I don't really understand why it's often acceptable to stereotype Christians around here..
Because this country has already over reacted to the crazy muslims and the crazy jews are both too few in number and don't bother you.
On the other hand, crazy christians bother me at my doorstep, send their children to weirdo camps, popularized shit lit like "Left Behind" in order to create a seperate "christian" universe, and elected GW Bush two times even after he's essentially duped them (Look for the books of the two guys who ran Bush's christian department and quit because he was scamming the fundies).
Also, this board is pretty liberal, and fundie christian is about the opposite of liberal.
Abortion? Check.
Gay Marriage? Check.
Stem cell research? Check.
I could go on, but you get the point.
Just a smal FYI - those that come to your door are JW's or Mormons, they are not Christian. :P
Just a smal FYI - those that come to your door are JW's or Mormons, they are not Christian. :P
Sweetheart, they use the christian bible, worship Jehovah and Jesus, and call themselves christians. Technically, they're sects that arose as part of a more general backlash against modernity, but you don't get to call them 'not christian' because that's what your pastor told you in order to make your faith seem superior.
t mannings: you're still doing it. Its rather unbecoming.
Just a smal FYI - those that come to your door are JW's or Mormons, they are not Christian. :P
Wait. So Methodists and Baptists aren't Christians either?
As an ex-mormon atheist, I would also like to know how earthless defines Christian.
EDIT: For example, what are those core biblical essentials they are not in keeping with? Also, how does that invalidate their strong religious focus on Jesus?
Just a smal FYI - those that come to your door are JW's or Mormons, they are not Christian. :P
Sweetheart, they use the christian bible, worship Jehovah and Jesus, and call themselves christians. Technically, they're sects that arose as part of a more general backlash against modernity, but you don't get to call them 'not christian' because that's what your pastor told you in order to make your faith seem superior.
t mannings: you're still doing it. Its rather unbecoming.
My pastor? lol please don't assume.
They may use a Bible and the same words - but they pour different meanings into said words. The skin of the truth stuffed with a lie. And that is from a secular/agnostic/atheistic standpoint.
Anyone that studies, for example, Mormonism and then biblical Christianity can see that they adhere to different definitions for God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, salvation, etc etc..
Just a smal FYI - those that come to your door are JW's or Mormons, they are not Christian. :P
Wait. So Methodists and Baptists aren't Christians either?
As an ex-mormon atheist, I would also like to know how earthless defines Christian.
I don't define it. The Bible does. You can be an atheist, an educated one on these subjects, and recognize the differences between Christianity and something is a complete off shoot with its own meanings and origins.
Just a smal FYI - those that come to your door are JW's or Mormons, they are not Christian. :P
Wait. So Methodists and Baptists aren't Christians either?
No, they are Christian. But JW's and Mormons are not in keeping with the core essentials of biblical Christianity.
My entire family except for me are JW's. You're wrong.
Ah, so there's the rub. It's not me that is wrong - definitions are what they are and not something you nor I can alter on something that has been around much longer than both of us.
We can start with a very simple item: Jesus.
The Jesus of JW is not the Jesus described in the Bible. The JW Jesus, as one simple example, is not God, but a created being. The Jesus of the Bible is God and not the angel Michael.
Just a smal FYI - those that come to your door are JW's or Mormons, they are not Christian. :P
Sweetheart, they use the christian bible, worship Jehovah and Jesus, and call themselves christians. Technically, they're sects that arose as part of a more general backlash against modernity, but you don't get to call them 'not christian' because that's what your pastor told you in order to make your faith seem superior.
t mannings: you're still doing it. Its rather unbecoming.
My pastor? lol please don't assume.
They may use a Bible and the same words - but they pour different meanings into said words. The skin of the truth stuffed with a lie. And that is from a secular/agnostic/atheistic standpoint.
Anyone that studies, for example, Mormonism and then biblical Christianity can see that they adhere to different definitions for God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, salvation, etc etc..
Don't try telling me you're not quoting a sermon verbatim there. As I said, I'm very familiar with the doctrines they hold to. They're really not sufficiently different from a million other recent church splinterings to bother distinguishing - all those groups attempt to resurrect christianity as it was practiced in the first century CE.. And how else are you going to classify them anyway? They're not frickin' Buddhists.
Secondly, anyone who actually studies religions for a living places them squarely in the Christian corner. The only people who have a problem with this are certain fundamentalist and orthodox groups.
The Jesus of JW is not the Jesus described in the Bible. The JW Jesus, as one simple example, is not God, but a created being. The Jesus of the Bible is God and not the angel Michael.
You're a damn fool if you think there's any more merit to their ideas of Jesus than your church's.
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Fixed, because Baptist churches choose their own interptetation of the Bible, be it liberal or Conservative. James Dobson, et. al. are non-demoninational, evangelical "Christians."
Well as a "real" Christian (I'm just a lot more sane, if I do say so myself) we DO despise faux-hip, Xtreme, Left Behind-loving, "Love Thy Neighbor"-ignroing Mega-churches run by charlitans and snake-oil salesmen. They are no better than for-profit cults, stunting young minds and stealing money.
But, the problem is, they are damn huge and large in number. It is not easy to opoose arch-conservative evangelicals because, well, Christians like be believe they have a right to interpret the Bible as they wish. We believe in freedom of religion. And thankfully some of us kinder, more reasonable Christians are starting to find our voices.
I could care less if churches have youth meetings where they play Halo or paintball or whatever. It's a social thing, mostly. But it does strike me as faux and shallow, in general. I don't need to listen to a Chrisitan pop band, or hang out talking about lame "Chicken Soup for the Teenage Christian Soul" books.
My faith is gospel music, talking about the Letters and the Apostles, adovating for freedom and equality. That's what being a Christian is to me.
Now Premillenial dispensationalism, the crazy-ass "Christian" Biblical interpretation from which the Left Behind books are based, is full of massive amounts of crap. And so are "Christian" apocolyptic novels and "oh noes, rap music is satan talking, and gays are gonna end the world" books are also full of crap.
Because this country has already over reacted to the crazy muslims and the crazy jews are both too few in number and don't bother you.
On the other hand, crazy christians bother me at my doorstep, send their children to weirdo camps, popularized shit lit like "Left Behind" in order to create a seperate "christian" universe, and elected GW Bush two times even after he's essentially duped them (Look for the books of the two guys who ran Bush's christian department and quit because he was scamming the fundies).
Also, this board is pretty liberal, and fundie christian is about the opposite of liberal.
Abortion? Check.
Gay Marriage? Check.
Stem cell research? Check.
I could go on, but you get the point.
Peer Pressure: maintaining religion's stranglehold on humanity since for fucking ever.
Selling Mt. Dew and selling Jesus aren't really that different.
Wheee, marketing.
I agree with this point. While I have no idea of the muslim faith and its practices, all I know is that Christans (of any type) are the ones producing stuff like left behind and thier own universe. At my Synagogue, the Rabbi actually asks why they want to convert and to think about it deeply before. What I see from my local Chruches here, they will take anyone to be "saved".
And they have a thing for calling anything "Christan". Case in point an editorial in my local newspaper said that Canada is a "Christan" country and was founded as such to which another person replied, "No, Canada is the faith of the Native Americans." And for a large part of History, both the Jews and any other non christian people were procuted by so called Christians. I think they have one of the most bloodiest history in Religious terms.
I doubt very much that anybody in this forum is posting from a spiritual vacuum, nor is it a rare feat to find and interact with actual Christians. If you object to the things people say, you should find firmer ground than suggesting that they must not know many.
Look: I know, and have attended in the past, a very moderate, sane, reasonable church. It is the sort of place that, were I a religious man, I would choose to attend. It's sober and dignified, the pastor is very educated and intelligent and his sermons are couched in a strong background of Biblical and secular history, with messages I can largely agree with - "love thy neighbor", et cetera. The atmosphere is a bit WASPy and starch-collared but I actually approve of this since, for me anyway, spirituality seems like it should be serious business.
It's a great church. My grandparents go there. So do all their eighty-year-old friends. Sometimes there's enough of them to fill up the pews a third of the way back.
Meanwhile, the repellently conservative hellfire-and-brimstone outfit down the road is packing them into a sanctuary that could double as an indoor football arena, and they're the ones dispatching the folk-rocker-looking dudes down to the art district on the weekends, which I'm sure has colored my opinion on the matter. That said: obviously there's nothing inherently conservative about the Xtreem approach, but I don't feel I'm being unfair in being a bit suspicious of anyone puts on the uniform of the counterculture to sell something that's anything but. It seems dishonest.
Here's what it all boils down to for me: whatever the sincerity or lack thereof of people who skate for Jesus or play Halo for Jesus or build model trains for Jesus, it strikes me that there's something a bit crass about mixing religious and secular interests like that: it feels to me like it demeans both and improves neither. Somebody should be a skater because they really enjoy skating, not as an opportunity to make converts or sell Amway. Similarly, if you think matters of the spirit are important, than surely they're important enough to speak of directly rather than smuggling them behind the skirts of pop music or video games.
So it's OK to stereotype, as long as you are stereotyping a group of people you don't like, or disagree with their views? Oh well, I guess your views of "open and accepting" are different from mine.
And to everything you just said, Jacobkosh- I completely agree that many churches do seem smarmy and fake, just to get rich members to give them money... but I hope that the people on this forum who are not Christians please remember not all churches are like that! It cannot be a blanket statement to all Christians.
Much like how some of you feel that video games and Xtreme sports to bring in youth kind of cover the real intention of their message, I understand what you mean... I feel that many churches these days use money as their real interest, rather than truly reaching out to others through the gospel. Many others said earlier that they are just going for quantity rather than quality. It really is a shame that some churches have to do that. At the same time though, I feel that institutions (be religious or whatever) do need to create common interests with the communities to reach out to them, even if it's just to let community members know what kind of things they do. So it's kind of mixed for me.
Oh, and Jakob, the reason I thought you should go meet more Christians is because this statement you made:
dream a little dream or you could live a little dream
sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
hah, there's a bloke like that who pops up in the CBD sometimes. Mad as a hatter.
I do have qualms about militarised christianity, and if you google around you'll find some truly scary people - forget jesus camp and praying to W, these guys are hoarding grenades for jesus - but playing halo really isn't at all on the same level. Its just another sad attempt at making religion appeal to a class of people who largely know better than to consider it relevant to their lives. Most of these 'hip' churches pull people in because they've become a substitute social world - some megachurches have whole malls built around them. They're appealing to the isolated and lonely for that reason. But that's not really faith, its desperation for human contact. I find it sad more than anything.
dream a little dream or you could live a little dream
sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
I'll ignore the part about Christianity's irrelevance to young people being a case of 'knowing better.'
Ironically (or maybe luckily), the kind of human contact you get in church doesn't usually lead to the far more interesting form of human contact.
its not about people 'isolating themselves', and that's something of an accusatory tone to take
I prefer the 'at your door, and with a Bible' type.
So I can split your bible in two as before"
haha, that reminds me of the time that I woke up to somebody knocking on the door, so I stumbled out half-naked and answered it. I scared that Jehovah's chick so bad with my manly sinflesh, she barely took the time to hand me whatever church flier thing she had.
The one time I went to church (extenuating circumstances and all that), it was sooo painful. Maybe if they worked on giving sermons that didn't make people cringe they wouldn't have to seduce people into the church with vidyagames and candy. Or maybe if they started helping people instead of taking their money :P
dream a little dream or you could live a little dream
sleep forever if you wish to be a dreamer
SHOCKING EXPOSE
So yeah I went to a youth group when I was a kid and to the best of my knowledge I haven't been all indoctrinated up in dis. They sometimes played soccer. I mean, what the fuck? What kind of faux-hip bullshit is that? Don't they realize that soccer was invented by pagans as a way of praising vishnu?
https://medium.com/@alascii
And christians who adored murdering entire villages in morrowind.
Infact, all the christians I know are exactly like everyone else except fewer of them have sex and they go to church.
Your comment is ignorant of the current situation in America and only addresses the extreme outliers. Your statement seems to suggest that the outliers are the mainstream, and as such the statement is misleading. I hope you are just misinformed and not purposely malicious.
It suggests nothing of the sort unless you're looking really really hard for some way to claim you're hard done by. This is what gives me the shits about internet christians. The endless quest for martyrdom by seeking perfidy in plain statements.
Because any church worth its weight is against fundamentalists/pharisees/hypocrites?
Maybe I would not be so jumpy if people like you and other Internet atheists would not blame EVERYTHING on Christians. Maybe I act this way because Christianity is the new boogieman.
Again, good evangelical churches are against religion in the sense that you are deeming it. They would advocate relationship, grace, liberty, freedom in Christ and not bondage or blind adherence to a religious system.
Also, keep in mind that there is a VAST difference between an evangelical Christian church and Catholicism/the RCC.
Just a smal FYI - those that come to your door are JW's or Mormons, they are not Christian. :P
Sweetheart, they use the christian bible, worship Jehovah and Jesus, and call themselves christians. Technically, they're sects that arose as part of a more general backlash against modernity, but you don't get to call them 'not christian' because that's what your pastor told you in order to make your faith seem superior.
t mannings: you're still doing it. Its rather unbecoming.
No, they are Christian. But JW's and Mormons are not in keeping with the core essentials of biblical Christianity.
As an ex-mormon atheist, I would also like to know how earthless defines Christian.
EDIT: For example, what are those core biblical essentials they are not in keeping with? Also, how does that invalidate their strong religious focus on Jesus?
My pastor? lol please don't assume.
They may use a Bible and the same words - but they pour different meanings into said words. The skin of the truth stuffed with a lie. And that is from a secular/agnostic/atheistic standpoint.
Anyone that studies, for example, Mormonism and then biblical Christianity can see that they adhere to different definitions for God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, salvation, etc etc..
I don't define it. The Bible does. You can be an atheist, an educated one on these subjects, and recognize the differences between Christianity and something is a complete off shoot with its own meanings and origins.
Ah, so there's the rub. It's not me that is wrong - definitions are what they are and not something you nor I can alter on something that has been around much longer than both of us.
We can start with a very simple item: Jesus.
The Jesus of JW is not the Jesus described in the Bible. The JW Jesus, as one simple example, is not God, but a created being. The Jesus of the Bible is God and not the angel Michael.
Don't try telling me you're not quoting a sermon verbatim there. As I said, I'm very familiar with the doctrines they hold to. They're really not sufficiently different from a million other recent church splinterings to bother distinguishing - all those groups attempt to resurrect christianity as it was practiced in the first century CE.. And how else are you going to classify them anyway? They're not frickin' Buddhists.