Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it,
follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given
their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!
A Draft Thread That Isn't Nine Fucking Months Old
Posts
Gee, maybe that's why I never said that or anything like it. Perhaps if you read the two sentences before that one you'll be able to figure out what I actually said, because it certainly wasn't that. Also in case you missed it, I'm talking about across the board "all citizens 18-21" mandatory conscription, as that's the idea the thread is mostly centered upon. If you'd like to tell me that since the army works fine now it would still work fine if the majority of enlisted people did not want to be there, well I suppose you haven't heard some of the shit that happened to officers in Vietnam just for being officers, at the hands of their own men.
As far as Switzerland as an example I don't see how that's at all analogous unless you can show me a couple instances in my lifetime of Switzerland initiating a foreign war with a country that poses no significant threat to them or their citizens.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
I instinctively don't like that idea, but I admit it isn't a bad one.
Honestly, I can't see the world becoming dull for me on account of focusing on being as economically efficient as possible.
I mean, RTS's are fun.
It runs counter to the ideals this country was founded upon. Inalienable rights with which we have been endowed by our creator don't need to be earned, that's not how "endowed with by our creator" works.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
Try being a high-powered high-paid lawyer / banker / accountant for a while.
I wasn't talking about the US, I was talking about a general principle of societal organisation.
That draft failed in 'nam because it was unfairly applied and for an unnecessary war. The draft worked in WW2 and universal service works in South Korea because it *is* and was necessary for the Nation's survival.
I get your point about 'nam, but what's ironic is that if we *still* had a draft and there was a fairly distributed chance that any 18-21 year-old could get drafted, we would be a *lot* less generous with the lives of our soldiers.
You and I both know support for Iraq would disappear overnight if there was a draft. Good! That's how it *should* be, when it's everyone's neck on the line, people actually care more about what's going on.
After 'nam, the average american will not tolerate their kids being drafted for a frivilous war. Good! Why not fight wars that really only have to do with survival? Why not have that force a less meddling foreign policy?
Just for arguments' sake...
Margaret Thatcher
Amassing wealth isn't economically efficient, but that is neither here nor there.
Back on the point: Some people enjoy working with numbers. I am not one of them. But a lawyer? Sure, if you want to get me into law school. I'd love to be a lawyer.
Widowson: I think you've misinterpreted VC. Had he made any such generalisation about military personnel, I'd be ripping into him right now and quite possibly jailed.
I don't think you have to be from the U.S. to believe that having a voice in your own governance is a fundamental right, not one that you have to earn through service.
my unofficial autobio will be accompanied with tips on how to smile
cause I've found that when they don't see you frown, they never know that you're a threat
and they don't sweat you when you came around
I apologise then.
Margaret Thatcher
*cough* you probably don't want to get into economic arguments with me.
They are high-powered and high-paid because they work all the hours God invented (and some he didn't), and their skills are highly prized by the market, ie the basic measure of economic worth. They are the human equivalent of the latest robotic wonder in industrial efficiency, thus a fairly good example of someone who is economically efficient.
Not this kind of lawyer you don't. Even this kind of lawyer often doesn't want to be this kind of lawyer.
Oh for gods sake, he was specifically referencing it to the US! And I specifically said I instinctively disliked the idea! Where's the fucking debate here?
No, I don't. Arguments about what is economically desirable are, in my eyes, worse than the obligatory religion "debate". Everyone has his or her own idea.
Try me.
Yeah, but holding that productive capacity above all other human values does cause problems. Its the kind of mindset that leads to things like the way they tried to privatise the water supply in Bolivia, when left unchecked. Its certainly the kind of mindset that completely fucks over anyone who's body doesn't allow them to participate in society at the level of an able-bodied young person of sound mind.
But I'm not holding it above all other human values, I'm saying it's the only one the government has any business instilling, and the only one it has any real need to instill. I'm not saying they should stamp out other values, but no one's saying we should draft everyone and make baptism mandatory so that whole conversation is a different conversation that I don't want to have unless I'm really drunk.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
I've got to disagree. Religious debate by it's very nature is subjective and ONLY subjective. Economic debates at the very least have an objective basis. There may be debate over how much we value the different factors in each outcome, but at the very least everyone who's competent is in agreement on what those factors are and how they are impacted by different plans.
Basically, you and I may disagree on how desirable or feasible communism is, but at the very least we both understand how it works, what it is, and what the trade offs and benefits are (even if we consider the impact of those benefits and negatives differently).
I understand the difference between a debate about economics and religion. I wasn't saying they're both impossible, I'm just saying I don't want to get involved in either one.
Man, I was just getting up a good head of steam to defend economics from someone who was blowing it off. Way to ruin things for me
Ha. As it turns out, economics is my favourite class. Unfortunately, other people make just about everything less fun.
Yes but I'm not advocating that. Look, when I'm Emperor, I'll grant you an audience and explain to you that as long as I'm the one setting the rules, everything will be great. And I can train a successor. After that you guys are pretty much screwed, I'll be honest.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
I'm blind so I don't need to serve. I would not dodge if I was capable of serving, though.
I don't think the draft should be compulsory.
Fixed that for you - as far as I know the draft is pretty much by definition compulsory service.
Er, yeah. Sorry, multitasking.
The military needs to be divided into two forces.
One which fights overseas wars of aggression.
And another which only defends your own country's soil.
There should be a compulsory draft service between 18-21 for the defence force, but NOT for the offensive force.
Isn't that... Isn't that how it already is in most countries? That's how it was in the USSR, and that's how it was in the Republic of Ichkeria, and that's how it is in the Russian Federation, and that's how it is in the United States... Right?
I'm uninformed. Australia has no draft of any sort.
I assumed that the current nature of the draft was that you could be forced to join the military, and could possibly go to Iraq against your wishes.
That makes more sense.
I'm not clear on how the Federation's military works, exactly, any further than which colours to shoot at.
But the USSR and the Republic of Ichkeria both had branches of the military that were intended specifically to defend the mother land.
The United States has the Coast Guard, which, as I understand it, is a branch of the military independent of the others that sort of functions as a Navy for the Yankee mother land. The National Guard is not an independent branch, but a subset of the Army (The Army, rather than being a generic term for military, is an independent branch) that is meant to handle disasters and to defend the mother land in case of an attack.
However, seeing as the United States just isn't going to be invaded, the National Guard has been called to Iraq in small numbers as only of recently, which I think is horse shit.
Also, if you are under the impression that the United States has a draft... Either you are misinformed, or I am. But I've only been here as a permanent resident for two years, and have been isolated within a single installation that entire time, so I may very well be.
Your grasp is (roughly) correct. One minor clarification, though: while the Coast Guard is indeed one of the five components of the United States Armed Forces, it is not purely a military installation. Four of the five uniformed elements of the Armed Forces (Army (which is the parental unit of, as you said, the National Guard), Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps) generally only perform 'active' service during war time except for extraordinary events such as riots or the installation of martial law. The Coast Guard, however, is regularly active within United States territory during peace time. When war is not declared, the Coast Guard is under the direction of the Department of Homeland Security.
The United States has not employed conscription since 1973. You are correct.
I'm against this purely on the grounds that I don't think it's generally a good idea to put everyone through military service.
EDIT: Also because mandatory service is by no means any general indicator that military forces will be used responsibly. 'Nam still took 10 years to end.
The American defence forces were not sent to Viet Nam, if I'm not mistaken, and without their conscripted army, Viet Nam would have been completely destroyed.
Conscripts did serve in Vietnam. However, certain branches spent little time on the ground and in the jungles so many draftees aimed for those branches- namely, the Navy, the Air Force, and the Coast Guard.
retarded people dont acquire maturity?
And to be more specific - if I ever find my self in country going to war you can bet your ass I will be out of there as fast as possible.
I just don't get the whole patriotism thing. If you want to go killing and dying for your country, great, but don't expect me to do the same just because I have the same nationality and don't fucking force me to do it. (I know the army does other things too, but those things are also done by the THW, the place I would have joined if I would have been drafted)
First of all, I wasn't making a point about actual retarded people. It was a thought experiment to demonstrate that experiencing something that you are not mentally equipped to process will yield you little, if any, benefit.*
Second, trim down that fucking quote tree, man.
*EDIT: The wider point I was making is that maturity is in great part biological. That is, someone who remained biologically a child could never become as mature as a fully developed adult.
Was the National Guard sent there?
Yeah, I'm interested in hearing Dhalphir's reasoning as to why it would be okay to use all 18-21 year-olds as forced labor instead of simply letting them get jobs or go to school.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
It happened, but very irregularly. I think the aggregate number for Army and Air National Guard to serve in Vietnam was only 8 and a half thousand. I may be off by a bit, but I'm nearly certain it was under 10 thousand.
Something like 20-25 thousand were 'called up', but only about a third of those actually deployed to Vietnam.
I'm not sure if you're asking this as purely curiosity or if you're making a point about conscripted soldiers serving at home versus on the battleground, but people weren't drafted only into the National Guard.
I'm well aware that conscripts served in Viet Nam, but I was under the impression that the National Guard's job was just... You know. Guarding the nation. Like I mentioned in a previous post, deploying National Guard troops in foreign conflicts is bullshit.
@ VC: I don't think it's as neccessary in a country like the United States, but for countries for whom full-scale invasion is a real threat, it's practically a given that serving in the border guard is a civic duty. At least, that's how it was in Ichkeria (In the what, three years we weren't being invaded) and in Belarus (I briefly stayed there between the time I left Ichkeria and the time I became a permanent resident in the US).
I don't think anyone's disputing the necessity of a draft when it is crucial to national security.
"Getting these damn hooligans of the street for a while" isn't crucial to national security.