?
I'm not following you here. Shooting the frogs gets you the stealth camo on subsequent playthroughs.
Beating the game without ever getting caught gets you the stealth camo on subsequent playthroughs.
Never being seen is easier.
So, what's the point of having the frogs?
For people who can't go through the whole game without ever being seen? Is it really that hard to figure out?
Not being seen is easy, yes. Going through the ENTIRE game without being seen? Not as easy.
Easier than shooting all the fucking Kerotans. Some of those bastards are in really obscure places.
It's really not that hard. You just need to be patient and save often. All I did on top of that was always have the tranq gun and knife out so I could quickly incapacitate a guard if they were about to see me.
...
So how 'bout that mgs4 huh
looks pretty neat
I might just have to get a ps3 to play it
I've been on a media blackout, simply due to the fact that I didn't acquire a PS3 until last week and was just giving in to the fact that I wouldn't be able to play MGS4.
Now I am fucking pumped. And completely spoiler-free. All I've seen of MGS4 is the original announcement trailer (the "tricked you" FPS one).
To this day I still don't know if it should be Ray-den or Rye-den, same with Ninja Gaiden.
RIE-den
GIE-den
those are the japanese pronunciations, and they're japanese words.
Since this thread is all about pedantry and being pedantic, I will out-pedantricize the pedant...
Japanese has no diphthongs, so that pronunciation is incorrect.
Also, I restarted MGS2. I appreciate the radar that we lost in MGS3, but CQC sure added a lot. Either way, I have realized that these games are founded on the principle of being as unintuitive to control as possible.
...I shoot lots of guards in the head on accident...
I'm not a native Japanese speaker, so I really couldn't say if they can hear the difference between /ai/ and a.i (with linguistic hiatus) spoken quickly - but only pure vowels exist in Japanese, and only one vowel can occupy a single syllable in it's phonology.
I'm not a native Japanese speaker, so I really couldn't say if they can hear the difference between /ai/ and a.i (with linguistic hiatus) spoken quickly - but only pure vowels exist in Japanese, and only one vowel can occupy a single syllable in it's phonology.
Thats not true. Consider りょ. In this case, the i and the o combine to form "Ryo," which is different from りよ, or "riyo"
You can absolutely combine several vowel sounds in japanese. When a vowel directly follows another vowel sound, they combine. あいーあい, pronounced "Ie Ie," not "a-ee, a-ee."
Japanese phonology is pretty clear on this. Only pure vowels. One vowel per mora/syllable.
A "y" between a consonant and vowel is a palatal glide, not another vowel.
consider ウィ, which combines ウ (u) and イ (i) to produce "wi"
they most certainly are not pronounced separately, as うい is it's own sound and in many cases it's own word. I'm sorry dude but you can combine vowels in japanese into a single sound.
To a native English speaker, any supposed Japanese diphthong will sound like a true English diphthong. Maybe even Japanese people can't tell the difference (though I'd wager they can, but there's no opportunity for confusion to arise frome the mistake, really). But phonologically, a single Japanese mora/syllable can only be a single vowel, a consonant + a vowel, or a consonant + glide/semivowel + vowel. This is undeniable. This is fact.
Practically speaking, you may as well be right. But formally speaking, you are not. Which one is more important, I'll leave to you.
I'll leave it at that, since I picked the argument with you knowing quite a bit about this beforehand and should have known better. I'd suggest reading the wikipedia article on Japanese Phonology if you're still interested. Also helpful are the articles on Morae and Diphthongs.
I'm being pedantic in response and flat out telling you that you're wrong. I trust college education over wikipedia articles, and my 4 semesters of japanese tells me that vowels can be combined to create a single new phoneme.
And I did it all with one single sound: ウィ. It's existance stands in stark contrast to what you're saying. No, it's not two sounds spoken quickly - that's an entirely different sound. Rather, ウィ combines two vowels to create a new sound which does not normally exist in the Japanese language. It's not "oo-ii" as in the french word, oui. It's Wi.
Since we're being pedantic, feel free to counter this sound's existence, and please use more than just wikipedia.
LANGUAGE NOTE: Syllables
Syllables thate are used in Japanese can be classified as follows:
1. syllables consisting of only one vowel あ、い、う、え、お
2. syllables consisting of one consonant and one vowel: か、き、く、け、こ
3. syllables consisting of one consonant, a glide vowel, and one vowel: きゃ、きゅ、きょ
4. Special syllables:
a. double consonant: かっか、きっき、くっく、けっけ、こっこ
b. single consonant: ん,つ
c. double vowel: there are two instance of double vowel use in Japanese.
i. When two of the same vowel occur together, the resulting sound is twice as long as a single vowel. In Romaji writing, these double vowels are transcribed by adding a corresponding single vowel symbol:
おばあさん: obaasan
いいえ: iie ii. In katakana, the use of an expressive vowel symbol in combination with another symbol can create a new sound. These new sounds, which have been appended to the Japanese language only in recent history, combine dual vowels to create a new resulting vowel:
イィ: Ye
ウィ: Wi
Yookoso, an invitation to contemporary japanese first edition, page 14.
EDIT: Sorry, I transcribed that incorrectly, it should say "combine dual vowels to create a new resulting sound," not vowel.
EDIT DOS: another error in my transcription, that should be "These new symbols," not sounds.
Okay, fine. I've never written a language book, so your book has more authority than me. That said, neither of those are diphthongs. The first is an approximant + vowel, the other a palatal glide/semivowel + vowel.
Please, just type in "Japanese diphthong" into Google and click, well, anything. You don't have to be right at all things at all times...I promise I'm not trying to ruin your day or editing Wikipedia articles myself and then citing them.
Ok, so in the other thread, I was thinking... Supposedly the reason why Raiden went to fight Solidus was because their relationship closely matched Snake and Big Boss. I wonder though, cause it seems like it was more like Big Boss and Null (Frank Jager).
Even more, look at what became of Frank and look at what happened to Radien.
That's a very interesting observation, and something I'd never thought of before. I wonder if it was intentional...
Maybe Raiden will end up with the same fate as Frank, sacrificing himself to save Snake from a Metal Gear?
Well he does say, "It's time for me to protect you, Snake", in the trailer.
Huge, HUGE Raiden spoiler from MGS4, don't read if you don't want it spoiled.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
Raiden is supposedly only a head and spinal column in that cybernetic, Grey Fox-like suit, hence the white blood and near invulnerability to being stabbed.
I definitely don't see him living through the end of the game in that state.
I'm not suggesting people avoiding spoilers should check it, but that spoiler was a lot less spoiler, and a lot more common sense than I was expecting. I have a bad habit of clicking spoilers, I can't believe I done it for MGS4, going to be my last one for sure.
Kind of a shame this will be the last MGS game. Well, traditional anyways. God knows what Konami and Kojima have planned for the future.
So who thinks Snake is going to die?
Well, if he doesn't shoot himself like in the trailers, then he'll just die of old age. The trailers said he has six months to live. I don't think they'll pull a magic cure out of their bums, as Kojima keeps saying it's time to end Snake's tale.
Dashui on
Xbox Live, PSN & Origin: Vacorsis 3DS: 2638-0037-166
Well, if he doesn't shoot himself like in the trailers, then he'll just die of old age. The trailers said he has six months to live. I don't think they'll pull a magic cure out of their bums, as Kojima keeps saying it's time to end Snake's tale.
Makes sense.. I can actually see Kojima killing off pretty much everyone in the game. Raiden spitting up synthetic blood on the helicopter, Snake kissing the gun scenes etc. Seems like a fairly safe guess it's the end of the road for Liquid\Ocelot.
Also, wasn't there a scene in one of the trailers with Otacon piloting a helicopter and another in another trailer with a helicopter crashing? Doesn't necessarily have to be the same helicopter but.. [SPECULATION ON]?
Ok, so in the other thread, I was thinking... Supposedly the reason why Raiden went to fight Solidus was because their relationship closely matched Snake and Big Boss. I wonder though, cause it seems like it was more like Big Boss and Null (Frank Jager).
Even more, look at what became of Frank and look at what happened to Radien.
That's a very interesting observation, and something I'd never thought of before. I wonder if it was intentional...
Maybe Raiden will end up with the same fate as Frank, sacrificing himself to save Snake from a Metal Gear?
Well he does say, "It's time for me to protect you, Snake", in the trailer.
Huge, HUGE Raiden spoiler from MGS4, don't read if you don't want it spoiled.
Don't say I didn't warn you.
Raiden is supposedly only a head and spinal column in that cybernetic, Grey Fox-like suit, hence the white blood and near invulnerability to being stabbed.
I definitely don't see him living through the end of the game in that state.
I'm not suggesting people avoiding spoilers should check it, but that spoiler was a lot less spoiler, and a lot more common sense than I was expecting. I have a bad habit of clicking spoilers, I can't believe I done it for MGS4, going to be my last one for sure.
Real spoiler ahead.
Raiden could have been wearing the suit in order to enhance his combat skills, like Solidus was. I mean, it wasn't very likely given Raiden's intense past as a field agent, but you never know.
Welp, google did you in, since I've found several sites claiming that japanese does have dipthongs:
Just as in English, the Japanese language uses diphthongs (putting 2 or more vowel sounds together at once). The most common are "ai", "ei", and "oi", though, as mathematics dictates, there are many more permutations.
3aSCb18. A cross-linguistic study of diphthongs in spoken word
processing in Japanese and English. Kiyoko Yoneyama Dept. of
Linguist., Ohio State Univ., 1712 Neil Ave., Columbus, OH 43210, yoneyama@ling.ohio-state.edu
Experiment 1 focused on monolingual Japanese listeners and found that they did not show a moraic effect in English materials, although they did not show that in Japanese materials.
So... yeah. The only places I'm seeing that tell me that japanese doesn't have dipthongs are places like wikipedia or random-ass japanese tutorials, while all these academic papers seem to suggest that japanese does have dipthongs.
One more, something I kept seeing over and over again on several sites:
ヲ
A true dipthong in japanese as you're trying to define it. Pronounced "uo" Even with mora, it's considered one syllable, despite representing two vowels.
Dude, you won the epic internets argument. You are right. I already conceded, and I admit I made everything I said up. I cherry-picked sites, and ignored every counterpoint you made, especially when you kept trying to call "w" a vowel. Because of you, we now both know something we didn't (since you said you didn't know what a diphthong was but now have a functional enough definition to completely prove me wrong).
Only one of us is being an asshole about it, though.
Anyways...I beat the Tanker and suddenly lost interest again in MGS2. Part of it was being Raiden. The other part is being Raiden and not having the cooler parts of MGS3 on hand. Am I really just letting my previous experience with the game tarnish it, or is there something I missed/forgot about...because I'm not sure I'd rather be playing this than 3.
Anyways...I beat the Tanker and suddenly lost interest again in MGS2. Part of it was being Raiden. The other part is being Raiden and not having the cooler parts of MGS3 on hand. Am I really just letting my previous experience with the game tarnish it, or is there something I missed/forgot about...because I'm not sure I'd rather be playing this than 3.
Man, Raiden is his own bad-ass. Give him a chance. When I first played MGS2, I liked Raiden, because I said to myself "maybe this guy is as bad-ass as Snake is". It's Rose who's the annoying one.
Also, it might just be that you don't like MGS2. I know a lot of people who love MGS1&3 but with 2, they just flat out don't like the game-play, because it's too choppy and un-focused. I can see where they're coming from, but I don't agree (obviously).
Raiden's a badass from the view that he is functionally identical to Snake (well, he does a froofy cartwheel instead of roll, but that's kinda cool), but something about this whole scenario just rubs me wrong. The setting is boring, and recollecting on the bosses, only Vamp stands out.
Parts of the game still impress me, though. The AI seems sharper, and some of the graphic touches are cool. It really just seems that this game blows its wad in the first act. I'll keep playing for plot-preparation purposes, I think.
Honestly, I still don't see Kojima knowingly releasing something that will spoil the game, but if you want to go into it completely blind, don't watch this.
Posts
Easier than shooting all the fucking Kerotans. Some of those bastards are in really obscure places.
...
So how 'bout that mgs4 huh
looks pretty neat
I might just have to get a ps3 to play it
It's 3 in the morning over here so I'm going to bed. I hope there aren't too many weird arguments like this while I'm asleep.
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
This game better port itself to the PC, pronto.
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
RIE-den
GIE-den
those are the japanese pronunciations, and they're japanese words.
Also, if you played through MGS2, you would have heard how it is pronounced about 500 times.
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
Now I am fucking pumped. And completely spoiler-free. All I've seen of MGS4 is the original announcement trailer (the "tricked you" FPS one).
Since this thread is all about pedantry and being pedantic, I will out-pedantricize the pedant...
Japanese has no diphthongs, so that pronunciation is incorrect.
Also, I restarted MGS2. I appreciate the radar that we lost in MGS3, but CQC sure added a lot. Either way, I have realized that these games are founded on the principle of being as unintuitive to control as possible.
...I shoot lots of guards in the head on accident...
I dunno what a dipthong is, but I speak japanese, and those are the correct pronunciations.
I'll leave my comparative linguistics hat on the table and keep it simple:
Those words have three syllables in Japanese. If you're saying it with two, you're saying it wrong.
This is how pedantry works.
Thats not true. Consider りょ. In this case, the i and the o combine to form "Ryo," which is different from りよ, or "riyo"
You can absolutely combine several vowel sounds in japanese. When a vowel directly follows another vowel sound, they combine. あいーあい, pronounced "Ie Ie," not "a-ee, a-ee."
This らいでん, or Raiden, would be (Ra+I=RIE)DeN.
A "y" between a consonant and vowel is a palatal glide, not another vowel.
consider ウィ, which combines ウ (u) and イ (i) to produce "wi"
they most certainly are not pronounced separately, as うい is it's own sound and in many cases it's own word. I'm sorry dude but you can combine vowels in japanese into a single sound.
To a native English speaker, any supposed Japanese diphthong will sound like a true English diphthong. Maybe even Japanese people can't tell the difference (though I'd wager they can, but there's no opportunity for confusion to arise frome the mistake, really). But phonologically, a single Japanese mora/syllable can only be a single vowel, a consonant + a vowel, or a consonant + glide/semivowel + vowel. This is undeniable. This is fact.
Practically speaking, you may as well be right. But formally speaking, you are not. Which one is more important, I'll leave to you.
I'll leave it at that, since I picked the argument with you knowing quite a bit about this beforehand and should have known better. I'd suggest reading the wikipedia article on Japanese Phonology if you're still interested. Also helpful are the articles on Morae and Diphthongs.
And I did it all with one single sound: ウィ. It's existance stands in stark contrast to what you're saying. No, it's not two sounds spoken quickly - that's an entirely different sound. Rather, ウィ combines two vowels to create a new sound which does not normally exist in the Japanese language. It's not "oo-ii" as in the french word, oui. It's Wi.
Since we're being pedantic, feel free to counter this sound's existence, and please use more than just wikipedia.
I feel insulted. Fine, you're right. But if you ever feel the tingle to actually research this, I suggest you do.
Yookoso, an invitation to contemporary japanese first edition, page 14.
EDIT: Sorry, I transcribed that incorrectly, it should say "combine dual vowels to create a new resulting sound," not vowel.
EDIT DOS: another error in my transcription, that should be "These new symbols," not sounds.
Please, just type in "Japanese diphthong" into Google and click, well, anything. You don't have to be right at all things at all times...I promise I'm not trying to ruin your day or editing Wikipedia articles myself and then citing them.
Kind of a shame this will be the last MGS game. Well, traditional anyways. God knows what Konami and Kojima have planned for the future.
So who thinks Snake is going to die?
I'm not suggesting people avoiding spoilers should check it, but that spoiler was a lot less spoiler, and a lot more common sense than I was expecting. I have a bad habit of clicking spoilers, I can't believe I done it for MGS4, going to be my last one for sure.
PSN:Hakira__
Well, if he doesn't shoot himself like in the trailers, then he'll just die of old age. The trailers said he has six months to live. I don't think they'll pull a magic cure out of their bums, as Kojima keeps saying it's time to end Snake's tale.
Makes sense.. I can actually see Kojima killing off pretty much everyone in the game. Raiden spitting up synthetic blood on the helicopter, Snake kissing the gun scenes etc. Seems like a fairly safe guess it's the end of the road for Liquid\Ocelot.
Also, wasn't there a scene in one of the trailers with Otacon piloting a helicopter and another in another trailer with a helicopter crashing? Doesn't necessarily have to be the same helicopter but.. [SPECULATION ON]?
Real spoiler ahead.
link
This dude wrote his PhD thesis on "English and Japanese Diphthongs and Vowel Sequences"
The Department of Phonetics at the University of Helsinki claims "The Japanese diphthongs34 are probably limited to seven: /ai, ie, io, e, o, ei, oi/," and also says "34 It should be noted that there is a mora boundary and sometimes an accent rise/fall within diphthongs in Japanese."
Seems this experiment from Ohio State University has shown that dipthongs do exist in japanese
Damn indepth analysis of japanese shows that words such as やすい contain dipthongs among japanese speakers
Haruo Kubozono from Kobe University wrote his thesis on Japanese dipthongs
So... yeah. The only places I'm seeing that tell me that japanese doesn't have dipthongs are places like wikipedia or random-ass japanese tutorials, while all these academic papers seem to suggest that japanese does have dipthongs.
No one cares.
ヲ
A true dipthong in japanese as you're trying to define it. Pronounced "uo" Even with mora, it's considered one syllable, despite representing two vowels.
edit: excuse me, thats uo, not oi.
https://medium.com/@alascii
Only one of us is being an asshole about it, though.
Anyways...I beat the Tanker and suddenly lost interest again in MGS2. Part of it was being Raiden. The other part is being Raiden and not having the cooler parts of MGS3 on hand. Am I really just letting my previous experience with the game tarnish it, or is there something I missed/forgot about...because I'm not sure I'd rather be playing this than 3.
Man, Raiden is his own bad-ass. Give him a chance. When I first played MGS2, I liked Raiden, because I said to myself "maybe this guy is as bad-ass as Snake is". It's Rose who's the annoying one.
Also, it might just be that you don't like MGS2. I know a lot of people who love MGS1&3 but with 2, they just flat out don't like the game-play, because it's too choppy and un-focused. I can see where they're coming from, but I don't agree (obviously).
Parts of the game still impress me, though. The AI seems sharper, and some of the graphic touches are cool. It really just seems that this game blows its wad in the first act. I'll keep playing for plot-preparation purposes, I think.
Honestly, I still don't see Kojima knowingly releasing something that will spoil the game, but if you want to go into it completely blind, don't watch this.
Even though it's awesome.