Seriously there are people out there who its so important for a woman to have her virginity they have to go to a doctor to get a fake hymen? You have got to be shitting me. Is there some actual valid reason for this other then insanity?
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I mean, that and the fact that virginity is only valued because back then there were no paternity tests, and you don't want the legitimacy of your offspring questioned, so you buy a baby-maker that still has an intact freshness seal.
I'm totally going to have "WARNING: DO NOT USE IF SEAL IS BROKEN" tattooed on my daughter's mons when she's an infant.
It's good old-fashioned misogynism.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
It just seems crazy, I mean a return to middle aged insanity. I don't fault the women for seeking it out, I fault the assholes who make it neccessary. That's insane. Hell my first time with my fiancee was certainly not enjoyable for either party why encourage that discomfort?
Is it all just the male powerplay?
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I fail to see how doing something like this is any worse than fake boobs, tatoos, or botox. People do crap everyday to make themselves "feel" better.
Boobs or botox, perhaps. I don't think there's any social pressure telling people that they're worth less as human beings if they don't have any tattoos. There clearly is, in some cultures, for virginity.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
It just seems crazy, I mean a return to middle aged insanity. I don't fault the women for seeking it out, I fault the assholes who make it neccessary. That's insane. Hell my first time with my fiancee was certainly not enjoyable for either party why encourage that discomfort?
This is what it boils down to. A woman is only as good as her purity in most cultures. I think the expectation of virginity is somewhat more relaxed in the United States but I can't say I would be surprised if this operation was done frequently here.
This is what it boils down to. A woman is only as good as her purity in most cultures. I think the expectation of virginity is somewhat more relaxed in the United States but I can't say I would be surprised if this operation was done frequently here.
Well, it's not like we're having father-daughter proms celebrating girls' virginities.
Oh wait.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
It just seems crazy, I mean a return to middle aged insanity. I don't fault the women for seeking it out, I fault the assholes who make it neccessary. That's insane. Hell my first time with my fiancee was certainly not enjoyable for either party why encourage that discomfort?
Is it all just the male powerplay?
You think these cultures ever left?
I would guess that the majority if the world's population lives in a place where a woman's virginity is highly valued.
It just seems crazy, I mean a return to middle aged insanity. I don't fault the women for seeking it out, I fault the assholes who make it neccessary. That's insane. Hell my first time with my fiancee was certainly not enjoyable for either party why encourage that discomfort?
Labeling this as misogyny is too simplistic (though it certainly is).
This shit goes back to well before the Bible. In the ancient near east, women were literally considered the property of men. Girls were the property of their fathers. Then, after a husband pays the father a brideprice, usually slightly higher than the price of a slave, the girl becomes the property of her husband.
Adultery was essentially a property crime. In the Code of Hammurabi, the Bible, and the Quran, a man does not commit adultery against his wife if he sleeps around—concubines and slave sex-girls are legal in all three documents. It's only adultery if that man sleeps with another man's wife—an action analogous to "stealing" his property.
You can see the logical conclusion of this way of thinking in Deuteronomy 22:28, which gives the punishment for raping an unbetrothed virgin girl—marriage:
If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.
The idea here is "you break it, you buy it."
And this is where virginity enters the picture—it is a proof of purchase. A father would have a much harder time selling a non-virgin daughter because she is "damaged goods"; in fact this is probably why the Bible allows fathers to sell their daughters into slavery.
In addition, fathers are expected to supply the proof of their daughters virginity. The ramifications for selling a non-virgin daughter to a husband are extreme—if a husband accuses his newlywed wife of not being a virgin, her father must provide proof of her virginity in the form of a bloody cloth. If he does provide proof, the husband is fined 100 shekels for slander. But if he cannot provide proof, the girl is stoned to death on the doorstep of her father's house. (also from Deuteronomy 22)
So yes, it's "misogyny," but it's also a vestige of a socio-economic system where women are treated like property. It is not surprising that cultures that place a special value on virginity also tend to have arranged marriages.
And this is where virginity enters the picture—it is a proof of purchase. A father would have a much harder time selling a non-virgin daughter because she is "damaged goods"; in fact this is probably why the Bible allows fathers to sell their daughters into slavery.
Here's where I think the misogyny runs deeper than you note-- the question is, why is a non-virgin "damaged goods"?
Sorry for the tatoo remark. I originally had stomach stapling in there but realized that in some extreme obesity cases that is a necessary procedure and didn't want to have to go into the fact that some of them are voluntary if you have the money. I figure go on a diet you know.
Anyway...
Yes in ancient times if you produced the"bedsheet tokens" or whatever they were (ie bloody sheets) to the father and they were not, in fact, bloodied you could get a refund. Then the girl would be stoned to death.
I think this procedure is just another way for a girl to say "Oh I've never been with anyone before" and then have this to prove it. Kind of an out there thing to do but I'm sure some woman will do it to get a guys millions in divorce claiming "he was my first though!!"
What about American dudes and their fantasies of deflowering a virgin? Don't forget about that now. Virgin fetish is weird.
I never got that, as I said first time sex is awful. Neither party is getting anything out of it. There are men who get off on that?
There are people that get off on rubbing crap on each other. So yeah I would imagine extreme penis pain is a turn on to some people. I think it's more of the male testosterone "I CONQURED HER!" mentallity. I experienced virgin sex and was disappointed thinking that masturbation just "felt better". :P
Is there a way off this crazy planet? I mean honestly this shit is sickening.
Things are getting better! Seriously. This shit was the norm for most of history; that we are in a privileged position where we can freely mock and deride such practices in favor of our own (relatively) feminist culture is something to marvel at.
And this is where virginity enters the picture—it is a proof of purchase. A father would have a much harder time selling a non-virgin daughter because she is "damaged goods"; in fact this is probably why the Bible allows fathers to sell their daughters into slavery.
Here's where I think the misogyny runs deeper than you note-- the question is, why is a non-virgin "damaged goods"?
And this is where virginity enters the picture—it is a proof of purchase. A father would have a much harder time selling a non-virgin daughter because she is "damaged goods"; in fact this is probably why the Bible allows fathers to sell their daughters into slavery.
Here's where I think the misogyny runs deeper than you note-- the question is, why is a non-virgin "damaged goods"?
No longer has that new girl smell?
:winky:
But seriously, I bet most of it comes down to sexual insecuirity among men. Which is actually kind of cute if you ignore all the horrible violence and whatnot.
I come from an "old-fashioned" family, and perhaps the only different point of view I can offer on this is that I have some problems with the girl I date not being a virgin.
But first, let me say that I agree with everything I see typed here. It's sexist, unfair and disgusting.
What I mean is that, (and I assume this is the same on the woman side) I have a problem knowing that the girl has been with another man before. I never say anything about it, because I've done the same thing, but the thought of the woman I love being with someone else makes my stomach turn to where I almost get sick. That doesn't mean what she did is wrong, AT ALL. I would only hope that the idea of me with another woman would bother her to the same degree.
But what I'm seeing above is probably just the utmost extreme version of that.
I've only dated one virgin in my time, and I'm still with her, but there was a comfort to the idea of knowing that I was her first. It just doesn't exist with other "non virgin" women. I don't know if the reverse is true for women, if not, then that is also an unfair double standard.
Is there a way off this crazy planet? I mean honestly this shit is sickening.
Things are getting better! Seriously. This shit was the norm for most of history; that we are in a privileged position where we can freely mock and deride such practices in favor of our own (relatively) feminist culture is something to marvel at.
^ agree.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Is there a way off this crazy planet? I mean honestly this shit is sickening.
Things are getting better! Seriously. This shit was the norm for most of history; that we are in a privileged position where we can freely mock and deride such practices in favor of our own (relatively) feminist culture is something to marvel at.
^ agree.
This is true, but as long as modern cultures clash with this one, it just makes me sad.
Preacher on
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Is there some actual valid reason for this other then insanity?
Some people slept around a bunch before they were born again. How else do you expect a woman with that kind of history to deliver up unto her husband that greatest gift of her unbesmirched maidenhead on their wedding night? :P
This really doesn't seem any worse than say genital piercings.
There are two types of "woo, virgin!" mentality in the US. One is the "Ha ha, I conquered that fuckin' snatch, oh yeah!" type which is pretty bizarre, and is probably a combination of misogyny, fear of other dudes' wang-cooties, and the sense that you were able to get some chick to spread 'em when nobody else could.
But there's also the idea of being someone's "first" which is a little tamer and sort of romantic. It's the idea that in some girl's (or boy's) entire life, you were the first one that she cared about enough to open up to (no pun intended). It's especially poignant if it's a mutual thing - it's the idea of two people in love exploring a fairly delicate and, to them, probably scary thing together. So I don't think that the "virginity fetish" is always a creepy thing. Just usually.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Pretty sure that's what they do to people before they are stoned to death, in several Muslim countries.
jesus christ.
Pretty sure he has nothing to do with it.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Posts
It's good old-fashioned misogynism.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
And yea the whole "your husband will murder you" thing is probably incentive for some people.
Is it all just the male powerplay?
pleasepaypreacher.net
Boobs or botox, perhaps. I don't think there's any social pressure telling people that they're worth less as human beings if they don't have any tattoos. There clearly is, in some cultures, for virginity.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
You think these cultures ever left?
Yes.
This is what it boils down to. A woman is only as good as her purity in most cultures. I think the expectation of virginity is somewhat more relaxed in the United States but I can't say I would be surprised if this operation was done frequently here.
Well, it's not like we're having father-daughter proms celebrating girls' virginities.
Oh wait.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I guess I thought we moved beyond that. I'm saddened to see I was so very wrong.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I would guess that the majority if the world's population lives in a place where a woman's virginity is highly valued.
Sinner
This shit goes back to well before the Bible. In the ancient near east, women were literally considered the property of men. Girls were the property of their fathers. Then, after a husband pays the father a brideprice, usually slightly higher than the price of a slave, the girl becomes the property of her husband.
Adultery was essentially a property crime. In the Code of Hammurabi, the Bible, and the Quran, a man does not commit adultery against his wife if he sleeps around—concubines and slave sex-girls are legal in all three documents. It's only adultery if that man sleeps with another man's wife—an action analogous to "stealing" his property.
You can see the logical conclusion of this way of thinking in Deuteronomy 22:28, which gives the punishment for raping an unbetrothed virgin girl—marriage:
The idea here is "you break it, you buy it."
And this is where virginity enters the picture—it is a proof of purchase. A father would have a much harder time selling a non-virgin daughter because she is "damaged goods"; in fact this is probably why the Bible allows fathers to sell their daughters into slavery.
In addition, fathers are expected to supply the proof of their daughters virginity. The ramifications for selling a non-virgin daughter to a husband are extreme—if a husband accuses his newlywed wife of not being a virgin, her father must provide proof of her virginity in the form of a bloody cloth. If he does provide proof, the husband is fined 100 shekels for slander. But if he cannot provide proof, the girl is stoned to death on the doorstep of her father's house. (also from Deuteronomy 22)
So yes, it's "misogyny," but it's also a vestige of a socio-economic system where women are treated like property. It is not surprising that cultures that place a special value on virginity also tend to have arranged marriages.
Here's where I think the misogyny runs deeper than you note-- the question is, why is a non-virgin "damaged goods"?
pleasepaypreacher.net
Anyway...
Yes in ancient times if you produced the"bedsheet tokens" or whatever they were (ie bloody sheets) to the father and they were not, in fact, bloodied you could get a refund. Then the girl would be stoned to death.
I think this procedure is just another way for a girl to say "Oh I've never been with anyone before" and then have this to prove it. Kind of an out there thing to do but I'm sure some woman will do it to get a guys millions in divorce claiming "he was my first though!!"
I never got that, as I said first time sex is awful. Neither party is getting anything out of it. There are men who get off on that?
pleasepaypreacher.net
Surgery isn't like the worst thing about cultures who put a high price on virginity.
Is there a way off this crazy planet? I mean honestly this shit is sickening.
pleasepaypreacher.net
There are people that get off on rubbing crap on each other. So yeah I would imagine extreme penis pain is a turn on to some people. I think it's more of the male testosterone "I CONQURED HER!" mentallity. I experienced virgin sex and was disappointed thinking that masturbation just "felt better". :P
Glad it got better.
No longer has that new girl smell?
:winky:
But seriously, I bet most of it comes down to sexual insecuirity among men. Which is actually kind of cute if you ignore all the horrible violence and whatnot.
But first, let me say that I agree with everything I see typed here. It's sexist, unfair and disgusting.
What I mean is that, (and I assume this is the same on the woman side) I have a problem knowing that the girl has been with another man before. I never say anything about it, because I've done the same thing, but the thought of the woman I love being with someone else makes my stomach turn to where I almost get sick. That doesn't mean what she did is wrong, AT ALL. I would only hope that the idea of me with another woman would bother her to the same degree.
But what I'm seeing above is probably just the utmost extreme version of that.
I've only dated one virgin in my time, and I'm still with her, but there was a comfort to the idea of knowing that I was her first. It just doesn't exist with other "non virgin" women. I don't know if the reverse is true for women, if not, then that is also an unfair double standard.
^ agree.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This is true, but as long as modern cultures clash with this one, it just makes me sad.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Some people slept around a bunch before they were born again. How else do you expect a woman with that kind of history to deliver up unto her husband that greatest gift of her unbesmirched maidenhead on their wedding night? :P
This really doesn't seem any worse than say genital piercings.
Hopefully someday our kids will be having this discussion but it will look more like, "Can you believe there's a country where women are raped?"
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
wait, are they burying her alive?
jesus christ.
But there's also the idea of being someone's "first" which is a little tamer and sort of romantic. It's the idea that in some girl's (or boy's) entire life, you were the first one that she cared about enough to open up to (no pun intended). It's especially poignant if it's a mutual thing - it's the idea of two people in love exploring a fairly delicate and, to them, probably scary thing together. So I don't think that the "virginity fetish" is always a creepy thing. Just usually.
Pretty sure he has nothing to do with it.
Uh....allah ackbar?