So how is Obama's ad about John McCain being out of touch because he doesn't use a computer, not a personal negative attack?
I'd say it's borderline. It's part of the overarching theme that McCain really has no experience with the issues that normal people deal with. He has no concept of money (hence his "$5 million" statement in lieu of an actual answer), he can't keep track of how many houses he owns without consulting his financial consultants, he thinks the economy isn't so bad, and he's completely computer illiterate.
The implication isn't "ha ha McCain doesn't use a computer what a loser", it's "McCain has no familiarity with the single biggest advancement of the last 20 years and will thus be ill-equipped to lead the country in the 21st century." While you can argue that it's a silly point to make, it's still the case that it's a fair argument and not just a petty smear. Compare this with the Swiftboat ads of 2004, which - even if true - would've been irrelevant. If Kerry wasn't quite as big a war hero, it wouldn't have had any effect on his ability to govern.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Because "He wants to teach kindergardners sex!" is hugely worse than "$5mil lol out of touch!" or "He wants to stay in Iraq 100 years!"
Not really. When you examine the issue more deeply, you see that the bill in question did talk about comprehensive sex education for grades k-12, specifically noting that it would be age appropriate. Which is fine.
Except that some people don't want the government to decide what is "age appropriate" for their kindergarten kid, and would rather have nothing of the sort talked about it school, whereas some parent's would love to see the school take responsibility for teach kids about sexual predators.
See, the fact that you're defending that piece of shit ad is why everyone's bitching at you guys in the first place.
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
edited September 2008
Deacon cares about not being taxed, that's pretty much all I've seen of why he chooses McCain.
Wasn't it entirely unproductive because some people refuse to admit that the scope, style, timing, etc of a lie or omission can be different and thus not all lies are created equal?
I wasn't a fan of the computer ad. I think it was another angle to show he's out of touch with Real Americans (tm), especially since the number of jobs where you don't have to know how to use a computer is shrinking daily, but it came off tacky and smear-like. Not even a very good smear, either.
I understand the intent, I don't approve of the implimentation, but in the end, I forgive it because he didn't lie about anything, or call McCain a pervert. :P
God damn, I'm just tired of this. Why the fuck is calling McCain out on not using a computer a purely personal attack? He didn't call him out on not liking apple pie or baseball or some other shit that won't play any part into presidency. But we're talking about a man who doesn't use the device that pretty much dominates and controls the age in which we live. The world is changing so fast in regards to the Internet that normal people can barely keep up when they try, yet we're okay with a man who won't try at all?
Ignoring any issues with not using the Internet as a source for information or email correspondance, we're still faced with the issue that the Internet plays a huge part in our society and our personal lives. Legislature in the coming years and decisions about the direction of our country will need to take the Internet and computers heavily into account.
You can claim that not using computers isn't automatic grounds to not be president and there are ways to compensate for it, but it's certainly not just a personal preference issue. It's a legitimate issue that needs addressing I feel.
it's not an attack on his policy or anything he wants to do as president. it's a personal attack. period. how valid it is or how much you personally are affected by it is another story. just like when something is a distortion of a quote it's a distortion, period. then you can talk about how big or dangerous of a distortion it is.
the thing about this thread is we don't get to those details because with this many people we just keep having the same first step of each conversation over and over again for 30 pages and then move onto a new topic.
It IS an attack on what he wants to do as president. That's precisely what I'm calling it. I'm saying complete inexperience and lack of interest in computers creates huge bias. Bias that will impact his decisions about how he wants America to look in 4 years and the lives he wants Americans to live. The Internet and computers are an influence that's growing at an exponential rate and now permeate nearly every facet of our everyday lives.
If you want to be making plans about the country, trying to govern the lives of 300 million Americans, you need some basic grasp of the lives they live. One of the few things that binds all Americans together other than having 2 legs (most of them anyway) is that we're like 90%+ users of computers and the Internet. And that's huge, from shopping to information to media to correspondance to a hundred other things.
If you don't know computers, you don't know Americans, and if you don't know Americans, don't try to govern their lives.
Except that some people don't want the government to decide what is "age appropriate" for their kindergarten kid, and would rather have nothing of the sort talked about it school, whereas some parent's would love to see the school take responsibility for teach kids about sexual predators.
The bill allowed no-fault opting out by parents who didn't want their kids involved in the program.
So has anybody actually been affected by this economy on a personal level?
For me, I just don't see it being that bad. I've been having a pretty good year as I make $65-70k/year, bought a BMW with $8k down, new bed at $1k, new PC at $1k, other new toys including cell phone and charcoal grill. All the while paying off credit card every month, mortgage and putting money into savings when I can. My point is, who is really affected by this crisis on Wall Street?
I have $10k sitting in WaMu, I'm waiting to see what happens to my funds when they get bought out. On the upside, I may have a job and if so that shit's going to a local credit union.
Why this sticks out for Obama is he ran through the entire primary and into the general on the promise of a new kind of politics. He made it absolutely clear that this was a reason why you should vote for Obama.
Hence, when his campaign turns negative, and results to the "politics as usual" approach", it goes back against one of the fundamental promises of his campaign.
Criticizing your opponent's politics isn't negative. That's the whole reason Obama is running against him. He doesn't think McCain is up to the task.
Criticism != attack.
I'm not arguing for or against dirty politics.
Criticism != dirty politics.
Not really. When you examine the issue more deeply, you see that the bill in question did talk about comprehensive sex education for grades k-12, specifically noting that it would be age appropriate. Which is fine.
Except that some people don't want the government to decide what is "age appropriate" for their kindergarten kid, and would rather have nothing of the sort talked about it school, whereas some parent's would love to see the school take responsibility for teach kids about sexual predators.
Lucky for you, Obama's plan has a No Questsions Asked Opt Out policy, for those parents that don't want their children to be taught it, their children can leave the room.
Deacon and ironzerg: if hypocrisy is such an issue for you then why the hell do you support McCain?
Because McCain won't make him pay higher taxes. Something you can go on, but apparently, that's all Deacon has to go on, so he should pretty much stop right there.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited September 2008
Re: that economist article. It's interesting they don't mention wages.
Man, Speaker. Can I both accept that Palin is kind of a pioneer and then have the caveat that she's a pioneer only in spite of herself? She's managed to build quite a record of being anti-feminist, and just anti-female, in her tenure as a public servant.
That is an interesting article, though, makes me hopeful.
Because "He wants to teach kindergardners sex!" is hugely worse than "$5mil lol out of touch!" or "He wants to stay in Iraq 100 years!"
Not really. When you examine the issue more deeply, you see that the bill in question did talk about comprehensive sex education for grades k-12, specifically noting that it would be age appropriate. Which is fine.
Except that some people don't want the government to decide what is "age appropriate" for their kindergarten kid, and would rather have nothing of the sort talked about it school, whereas some parent's would love to see the school take responsibility for teach kids about sexual predators.
Right. What is age appropriate would be determined by whomever is already determining the curriculum. That could be the state, the school district, even the PTA depending on where the school resides. Also included in the bill was the ability for any parent to easily opt their children out of this portion of their education. So thank you for further explaining why this is attack was bullshit. In no way would this be forced on anyone's children.
You don't see Obama answering (unrelated) questions with: "I'm black and I grew up with a struggling family and a single Mom who died and left me to be raised by my Grandparents" but you do see an awful lot of McCain answering (unrelated) questions with: "I was a P.O.W. for 5 years."
Yeah this is really off-topic but I'm about to bounce out of this thread and get some work done. Felt like throwing that out there. I really liked McCain and at the beginning of this whole process I genuinely thought to myself; "Great! no matter who wins it looks like there will be some real change in the White House!" McCain has gone from Jeckyl to Hyde on us and it is extremely disappointing.
Where is the straight-talker from 2000 who was not comfortable bringin up his P.O.W. experience in interviews because - his words - it felt like 'a cheap ploy to get votes'. Where's the McCain who actually fought lobbying in Washington (instead of hiring Lobbyists to be his most trusted advisors)?
The McCain of 2000 would've been so great for the U.S. Even though it *is* just a cheezy tagline invented by Olbermann, I think it's absolutely true; McCain of 2000 would NOT vote for McCain of 2008.
Well, to be fair, the POW line hasn't been trotted out very much recently, and definitely not in the same capacity it was being used a month ago.
Because "He wants to teach kindergardners sex!" is hugely worse than "$5mil lol out of touch!" or "He wants to stay in Iraq 100 years!"
Not really. When you examine the issue more deeply, you see that the bill in question did talk about comprehensive sex education for grades k-12, specifically noting that it would be age appropriate. Which is fine.
Except that some people don't want the government to decide what is "age appropriate" for their kindergarten kid, and would rather have nothing of the sort talked about it school, whereas some parent's would love to see the school take responsibility for teach kids about sexual predators.
Except your point, which has a degree of validity (though I disagree), is not in any way communicated by an ad that flat-out says Obama wants to teach kindergarteners comprehensive sex-ed. The latter is clearly meant to paint Obama as some sort of sicko, and is completely indefensible. It's completely fucking disgusting to tar your opponent as an effective pedophile.
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Except that some people don't want the government to decide what is "age appropriate" for their kindergarten kid, and would rather have nothing of the sort talked about it school, whereas some parent's would love to see the school take responsibility for teach kids about sexual predators.
The bill allowed no-fault opting out by parents who didn't want their kids involved in the program.
Alaska and Georgia are given up on. McCain is having to actively defend Florida and North Carolina, but still nothing for Indiana or Montana., and (oddly enough) he appears to be dropping off spending in VA. McCain's now outspending Obama in New Hampshire, and he's greatly increased the spending gap in PA.
I am pissed off that Obama is spending so much on Florida. If Obama wins Florida, he's already won Colorado and New Mexico, and with that the election.
He should be focusing on flipping New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Virginia and Ohio. Florida is a waste of resources. At least McCain is wasting some money in Pennsylvania to balance it out.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
According to me, I'm pretty sure every person on the planet has told a lie. Doesn't mean I don't generally have some sort of spectrum with "told a lie" at one end and "Pathologically fabricates everything" at the other.
If you don't know computers, you don't know Americans, and if you don't know Americans, don't try to govern their lives.
Not using a computer is very different from not understanding the impact of technology on society.
Plus, and I hate to bring this up, but you realize the reason he doesn't like to type on a keyboard is because it's physically painful for him, you know, after that whole 5 1/2 years of torture...
I don't see how quoting this helps your case since it quite clearly demonstrates that Obama tells the truth at a significantly higher rate than McCain.
Which is why it's important to dig beneath the surface of what each candidate says, and determine exactly where they stand and what their policies will be on the issues that are most important to you.
In her idiosyncratic way, Mrs Palin also represents the fulfilment of the feminist dream. She demonstrates that gender is no longer a barrier to success in one of the most conservative corners of the land, the Alaska Republican Party. She also proves that you can be a career woman without needing to subscribe to any fixed feminist ideology. Camille Paglia hails her as the biggest step forward for feminism since Madonna. One can argue, as we have, that it was astoundingly reckless of Mr McCain to have picked her on the basis of having once met her for 15 minutes. But if feminism means, at its core, that women should be able to compete equally in the workplace while deciding for themselves how they organise their family life, then Mrs Palin deserves to be treated as a pioneer, not dismissed as a crackpot.
She is good in that she is essentially forcing a bunch of culturally conservative misogynists to convince themselves to support her.
Alaska and Georgia are given up on. McCain is having to actively defend Florida and North Carolina, but still nothing for Indiana or Montana., and (oddly enough) he appears to be dropping off spending in VA. McCain's now outspending Obama in New Hampshire, and he's greatly increased the spending gap in PA.
I am pissed off that Obama is spending so much on Florida. If Obama wins Florida, he's already won Colorado and New Mexico, and with that the election.
He should be focusing on flipping New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Virginia and Ohio. Florida is a waste of resources. At least McCain is wasting some money in Pennsylvania to balance it out.
Florida has been polling as tied, and had Obama 4 points up in one recent poll. It's completely in play, and if these numbers stay put or start moving further blue, McCain is going to be spread too thin and is going to be forced to completely withdraw from some other battleground states.
Obama can afford to not win Florida. McCain can't afford to lose it.
You don't see Obama answering (unrelated) questions with: "I'm black and I grew up with a struggling family and a single Mom who died and left me to be raised by my Grandparents" but you do see an awful lot of McCain answering (unrelated) questions with: "I was a P.O.W. for 5 years."
Yeah this is really off-topic but I'm about to bounce out of this thread and get some work done. Felt like throwing that out there. I really liked McCain and at the beginning of this whole process I genuinely thought to myself; "Great! no matter who wins it looks like there will be some real change in the White House!" McCain has gone from Jeckyl to Hyde on us and it is extremely disappointing.
Where is the straight-talker from 2000 who was not comfortable bringin up his P.O.W. experience in interviews because - his words - it felt like 'a cheap ploy to get votes'. Where's the McCain who actually fought lobbying in Washington (instead of hiring Lobbyists to be his most trusted advisors)?
The McCain of 2000 would've been so great for the U.S. Even though it *is* just a cheezy tagline invented by Olbermann, I think it's absolutely true; McCain of 2000 would NOT vote for McCain of 2008.
Well, to be fair, the POW line hasn't been trotted out very much recently, and definitely not in the same capacity it was being used a month ago.
That's because McCain hasn't been trotted out much recently. :P
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
If you don't know computers, you don't know Americans, and if you don't know Americans, don't try to govern their lives.
Not using a computer is very different from not understanding the impact of technology on society.
Plus, and I hate to bring this up, but you realize the reason he doesn't like to type on a keyboard is because it's physically painful for him, you know, after that whole 5 1/2 years of torture...
Bullshit, he can text and use his blackberry just fine, this has been debunked.
I don't see how quoting this helps your case since it quite clearly demonstrates that Obama tells the truth at a significantly higher rate than McCain.
Also, not to beat the moral equivalency horse to death again, but come on, iron. The ad basically paints Obama as some kind of pedo, which is so far beyond the pale that it's hard for me to believe you can compare it to the other Obama ads.
Gah, I'm getting tired of retreading these arguments. There's only so many times we can reinvent the wheel in here. *heads off to catch up on work*
Except you JUST SAID that an ad insinuating Obama is a pedophile is on the same level as omitting joke context for a statement or quoting McCain on the 100 years thing when apparently he meant something else
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
Cool. Based on that, Obama is the most honest by far, and Palin is the least.
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Also, not to beat the moral equivalency horse to death again, but come on, iron. The ad basically paints Obama as some kind of pedo, which is so far beyond the pale that it's hard for me to believe you can compare it to the other Obama ads.
Sorry, but I never read into the pedophilia vibe from that ad. I assume you're talking about the Kindergarten one?
The ad was trying to draw a line in the ground for voters who are against state sponsored, sex education being taught in public schools.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
I don't see how quoting this helps your case since it quite clearly demonstrates that Obama tells the truth at a significantly higher rate than McCain.
Not all lies are created equal.
Totally. Republican lies are patriotic and for our own good. Every time a Democrat lies, a puppy contracts AIDS.
ElJeffe on
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So a Republican talking head on MSNBC attacked Obama and Biden for being 2 of the 90 people who voted for some bill he was angry about.
Does he expect people to not know how many senators there are?
Wait...
Yeah how many people in the last cycle railed against incumbents who voted for the PATRIOT Act? And what margin did that pass by?
I believe the vote was on continuing it with modifications.
As for the 90 people voting, I assume either some senators weren't present for the vote or abstained, it isn't meant to be misleading or insulting or anything.
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I'd say it's borderline. It's part of the overarching theme that McCain really has no experience with the issues that normal people deal with. He has no concept of money (hence his "$5 million" statement in lieu of an actual answer), he can't keep track of how many houses he owns without consulting his financial consultants, he thinks the economy isn't so bad, and he's completely computer illiterate.
The implication isn't "ha ha McCain doesn't use a computer what a loser", it's "McCain has no familiarity with the single biggest advancement of the last 20 years and will thus be ill-equipped to lead the country in the 21st century." While you can argue that it's a silly point to make, it's still the case that it's a fair argument and not just a petty smear. Compare this with the Swiftboat ads of 2004, which - even if true - would've been irrelevant. If Kerry wasn't quite as big a war hero, it wouldn't have had any effect on his ability to govern.
Because he earns over $250k
Wasn't it entirely unproductive because some people refuse to admit that the scope, style, timing, etc of a lie or omission can be different and thus not all lies are created equal?
I understand the intent, I don't approve of the implimentation, but in the end, I forgive it because he didn't lie about anything, or call McCain a pervert. :P
I believe the vote was on continuing it with modifications.
It IS an attack on what he wants to do as president. That's precisely what I'm calling it. I'm saying complete inexperience and lack of interest in computers creates huge bias. Bias that will impact his decisions about how he wants America to look in 4 years and the lives he wants Americans to live. The Internet and computers are an influence that's growing at an exponential rate and now permeate nearly every facet of our everyday lives.
If you want to be making plans about the country, trying to govern the lives of 300 million Americans, you need some basic grasp of the lives they live. One of the few things that binds all Americans together other than having 2 legs (most of them anyway) is that we're like 90%+ users of computers and the Internet. And that's huge, from shopping to information to media to correspondance to a hundred other things.
If you don't know computers, you don't know Americans, and if you don't know Americans, don't try to govern their lives.
According to PoliticFact, every candidate in this election has told a lie.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/barack-obama/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/john-mccain/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/joe-biden/
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/personalities/sarah-palin/
The bill allowed no-fault opting out by parents who didn't want their kids involved in the program.
I have $10k sitting in WaMu, I'm waiting to see what happens to my funds when they get bought out. On the upside, I may have a job and if so that shit's going to a local credit union.
Criticizing your opponent's politics isn't negative. That's the whole reason Obama is running against him. He doesn't think McCain is up to the task.
Criticism != attack.
Criticism != dirty politics.
Lucky for you, Obama's plan has a No Questsions Asked Opt Out policy, for those parents that don't want their children to be taught it, their children can leave the room.
Because McCain won't make him pay higher taxes. Something you can go on, but apparently, that's all Deacon has to go on, so he should pretty much stop right there.
That is an interesting article, though, makes me hopeful.
Right. What is age appropriate would be determined by whomever is already determining the curriculum. That could be the state, the school district, even the PTA depending on where the school resides. Also included in the bill was the ability for any parent to easily opt their children out of this portion of their education. So thank you for further explaining why this is attack was bullshit. In no way would this be forced on anyone's children.
Well, to be fair, the POW line hasn't been trotted out very much recently, and definitely not in the same capacity it was being used a month ago.
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Except your point, which has a degree of validity (though I disagree), is not in any way communicated by an ad that flat-out says Obama wants to teach kindergarteners comprehensive sex-ed. The latter is clearly meant to paint Obama as some sort of sicko, and is completely indefensible. It's completely fucking disgusting to tar your opponent as an effective pedophile.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/712/
The whole thing is a load of crap
He should be focusing on flipping New Mexico, Nevada, Colorado, Virginia and Ohio. Florida is a waste of resources. At least McCain is wasting some money in Pennsylvania to balance it out.
According to me, I'm pretty sure every person on the planet has told a lie. Doesn't mean I don't generally have some sort of spectrum with "told a lie" at one end and "Pathologically fabricates everything" at the other.
Not using a computer is very different from not understanding the impact of technology on society.
Plus, and I hate to bring this up, but you realize the reason he doesn't like to type on a keyboard is because it's physically painful for him, you know, after that whole 5 1/2 years of torture...
I don't see how quoting this helps your case since it quite clearly demonstrates that Obama tells the truth at a significantly higher rate than McCain.
Which is exactly my point.
Which is why it's important to dig beneath the surface of what each candidate says, and determine exactly where they stand and what their policies will be on the issues that are most important to you.
Florida has been polling as tied, and had Obama 4 points up in one recent poll. It's completely in play, and if these numbers stay put or start moving further blue, McCain is going to be spread too thin and is going to be forced to completely withdraw from some other battleground states.
Obama can afford to not win Florida. McCain can't afford to lose it.
That's because McCain hasn't been trotted out much recently. :P
Bullshit, he can text and use his blackberry just fine, this has been debunked.
Not all lies are created equal.
Barack Obama
True: 40
Mostly: 24
Half: 21
Barely: 13
False: 18
Pants on Fire: 0
John McCain
True: 25
Mostly: 21
Half: 19
Barely True: 22
False: 23
Pants on Fire: 6
You really want to go down this road?
Gah, I'm getting tired of retreading these arguments. There's only so many times we can reinvent the wheel in here. *heads off to catch up on work*
He's worse on the issues I care about.
Except you JUST SAID that an ad insinuating Obama is a pedophile is on the same level as omitting joke context for a statement or quoting McCain on the 100 years thing when apparently he meant something else
Cool. Based on that, Obama is the most honest by far, and Palin is the least.
I'm not sure anyone said that.
Sorry, but I never read into the pedophilia vibe from that ad. I assume you're talking about the Kindergarten one?
The ad was trying to draw a line in the ground for voters who are against state sponsored, sex education being taught in public schools.
Totally. Republican lies are patriotic and for our own good. Every time a Democrat lies, a puppy contracts AIDS.
As for the 90 people voting, I assume either some senators weren't present for the vote or abstained, it isn't meant to be misleading or insulting or anything.
Which issues?
Again, Obama's stance offers a complete Opt Out policy for those parents who do not want their children to participate.
Or are you gonna ignore that again?