Freshly returned missionaries are often some of the most annoying people you will ever meet. Usually they're fine about a year later, but two years of the Heavenly Father's work can turn people into pompous dicks for a while. Mormons I've met outside of Utah tend to be awesome and nice, but in Utah the culture is so reinforced that I rarely meet active adult Mormons that aren't giving me super judgmental vibes most of the time. People my age are usually pretty cool though, I have quite a few friends from high school who attend BYU now.
My main beef is with the churches. They're all the same and ugly as hell.
I was in a couple year realationship with a mormon years ago, met lots of fellow Mormons, most of whom were very wealthy, and very nice. Attended a baptism as well as a pagent of the Joseph Smith story and personally came to the conclusion that they were a common cult, mainly becuase of the importance placed on money going towards the church, and the undeniable infallibility of whoever holds the position of prophet.
Though to their credit I never really felt pressured to join but there was a palpable "holier than thou" atmosphere.
Things pretty much ended when she found http://www.exmormon.org/ in my browser history, I'd been doing some research and read a lot of the stories on that site which definitely influenced my opinion of the church. Not to mention some of the weirder things I saw first-hand that would be uncouth of me to list...
Magic underwear, "party like a rockstar until I go on a mission then it's all ok"-mentality among a large number of the youth and "no homers" style temples among them... but all religions are weird to me
You probably live/lived in Utah. Outside of Utah, the church culture is usually palpably different. But inside, you can definitely get a bit of a cult-ish vibe, the same that you get in rural Pennsylvania or Kentucky or really anywhere with a mostly homogenous culture and religion.
As far as it goes, I have found Mormons far easier to get along with than any other faith that required prostelytising. Never met one that was not a nice guy(and I met a bunch in the bikeshop. You think those guys could have a car, they could cover more ground)
Female missionaries had cars, the men had to ride around on bicycles.
"party like a rockstar until I go on a mission then it's all ok"
I noticed that alot of the youth always went through a phase when they hit their mid teens, when they would run away from home, get heavily into drugs, sex, and alcohol for a year or so, and then come back to their family and the church. Kind of like what the Amish do, but at least they acknowledge it.
I imagine being so sheltered and repressed from the outside world has that effect.
I was in a couple year realationship with a mormon years ago, met lots of fellow Mormons, most of whom were very wealthy, and very nice. Attended a baptism as well as a pagent of the Joseph Smith story and personally came to the conclusion that they were a common cult, mainly becuase of the importance placed on money going towards the church, and the undeniable infallibility of whoever holds the position of prophet.
Though to their credit I never really felt pressured to join but there was a palpable "holier than thou" atmosphere.
Things pretty much ended when she found http://www.exmormon.org/ in my browser history, I'd been doing some research and read a lot of the stories on that site which definitely influenced my opinion of the church. Not to mention some of the weirder things I saw first-hand that would be uncouth of me to list...
Magic underwear, "party like a rockstar until I go on a mission then it's all ok"-mentality among a large number of the youth and "no homers" style temples among them... but all religions are weird to me
You probably live/lived in Utah. Outside of Utah, the church culture is usually palpably different. But inside, you can definitely get a bit of a cult-ish vibe, the same that you get in rural Pennsylvania or Kentucky or really anywhere with a mostly homogenous culture and religion.
I lived in Utah for a couple of years. Mainly Pleasant Grove and Orem, but I stayed in Salt Lake City for a while. I think I saw three black people the entire time I was there.
One of the guys I went to highschool with was one of nineteen children. Since there was no sex until marriage, everyone either got married the second they turned eighteen (I knew people in high school who were married), or they were married the second they got back from their mission.
When we first moved there, it was difficult to rent a house, the landlords kept asking us what Stake and Ward we were from and who our Bishop was. I attended for a short period (mainly because I had to to be able to get into the Boy Scouts), and they really are a bunch of fucking cultists.
I remember the one sunday of the month when people would "Bear their Testimony", where they pick up a mic and declare that they "Know this church is true" (that line is in every testimony I have ever heard) for a minute or two, tell everyone how much they love the church and their family, and then pass it on to the next person. Every so often you would get a four or five year old child who would "bear their testimony", and you could hear the parent whispering lines for the kid to say into the microphone.
Tithing is ridiculous. They handed down such a guilt trip to anyone who didn't. Even if you couldn't afford it, you were supposed to tithe anyway. See, if you tithed, Jesus would find a way to solve your money problems. You just have to tithe. Shut up and tithe.
That said, we did have a serious financial fallout about a year after we moved there, and I'm not sure what we would have done if it wasn't for the food we got from the Bishop's Storehouse (a storehouse where food is donated to needy families that are a part of the church). They do do significant humanitarian stuff in developing countries, which is great, but it seems like they're swooping in not so much to give to the needy, but to recruit new members.
I don't mean to offend any practicing Mormons, but when you get to Zion it's like a whole different world.
Experiences will change from region to region. Not only that but there are different Mormon off-shoots, that don't share all the same beliefs. My mom was told by a friend that Mormons didn't believe in Jesus. It's called the church of Jesus Christ for a reason...(shakes head) I like the litmus test idea. I don't care what you believe in - if you're not a douche then you're okay in my book. Doesn't mean you have to agree on everything.
I've read through just about everything on exmormon and some other anti-sites. I was pretty anti for a long time. I even started bashing my fiance for his family being mormon. I'm not quite sure why I felt the need to, I mean what difference did it make? His family is great, so I really felt like a big jerk and I'm the one that ended up being the douche, even though I'm normally a really nice person Once I learned what the church actually believed I ended up getting baptized about six months later
I can't explain the past, but the thing that the good friends I have at church now told me is that everyone, even the prophet of the church, is human. None of us are perfect. Only one human ever was, so a lot of mormons past and present have made mistakes. So has everyone else in any other religion. I just stick to what I believe to be true and have faith in the Lord to lead me in the right direction, which I encourage everyone to do.
As far as clarifying things - well the 12 oxen on the baptismal font for the dead is based out of description from the old testament of Solomon's temple http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon's_Temple
"The brazen Sea (Laver), 10 cubits wide brim to brim, 5 cubits deep and with a circumference of 30 cubits around the brim, rested on the backs of twelve oxen (1 Kings 7:23-26). The Book of Kings gives its capacity as "2,000 baths" (24,000 US gallons), but Chronicles inflates this to three thousand baths (36,000 US gallons) (2 Chr. 4:5-6) and states that its purpose was to afford opportunity for the purification by immersion of the body of the priests. (According to Talmud tractate Mikwaoth, a "bath" of 40 seahs is the minimum permissible size for a Mikvah)."
Caffeine - well some Mormons say you can have it, some say you can't. But it is certainly starting to look not so good:
I mean, we have basic needs like food and water, but it's sad when you can't function without your "caffiene fix"
Getting married young-
well.. it's better than the pregnant 12 year old crack addicts pumpin'em out like pez ain't it?
There are "singles" church wards where the college age kids go. So you figure if you go to a church where you know everyone is single and has the same beliefs, give it a couple months to find someone into the stuff you like, there's a good probability you'll find someone you want to marry.
Tithing :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe
It's from the old and new testament! Look at it this way - God gave us the chance to have the money that we do have, and to give some back to him in the form of tithing. That money goes to do the Lord's work. It's a charitable countribution! If you're giving tithing unwillingly then you shouldn't do it at all anyway.
Wow I wrote a lot ><
I'll try to clarify anything I can for those who are confused. I can't promise good explanations - I was just baptized a couple of weeks ago
AgentBryson on
I still put my panties on one leg at a time -- if you know what I mean...
I love how in your world, there's no middle ground between 'being a twelve year old crack addict mother' and getting married in your teens. Nice one, Captain Logical. You know it is possible to justify your beliefs without implying that the rest of us are degenerates, right?
I think the bottom line here - as generic as this may sound - there's good and bad in every religion and every religious interpretation.
For every "respect thy neighbour" you'll have a "kill the infidels" and so on.
If you adhere to a religious belief because you feel that it helps YOU in YOUR life, then I could NEVER have anything negative to say about it.
If you adhere to a religious belief because you believe that YOU are right and EVERYONE else is wrong; and thus should be converted or subjugated; then you're an ignorant fucktard that deserves to burn in whatever 'hell' you have envisioned for others.
I love how in your world, there's no middle ground between 'being a twelve year old crack addict mother' and getting married in your teens. Nice one, Captain Logical. You know it is possible to justify your beliefs without implying that the rest of us are degenerates, right?
It's called contrasting in order to make a point, and at no point did anyone say that people of non-mormon faith (or no faith) were degenerates. If anyone is coming at this from a 'high horse' position... it's you. Get off it & be objective.
I lived in Utah for a couple of years. Mainly Pleasant Grove and Orem, but I stayed in Salt Lake City for a while. I think I saw three black people the entire time I was there.
One of the guys I went to highschool with was one of nineteen children. Since there was no sex until marriage, everyone either got married the second they turned eighteen (I knew people in high school who were married), or they were married the second they got back from their mission.
When we first moved there, it was difficult to rent a house, the landlords kept asking us what Stake and Ward we were from and who our Bishop was. I attended for a short period (mainly because I had to to be able to get into the Boy Scouts), and they really are a bunch of fucking cultists.
I remember the one sunday of the month when people would "Bear their Testimony", where they pick up a mic and declare that they "Know this church is true" (that line is in every testimony I have ever heard) for a minute or two, tell everyone how much they love the church and their family, and then pass it on to the next person. Every so often you would get a four or five year old child who would "bear their testimony", and you could hear the parent whispering lines for the kid to say into the microphone.
Tithing is ridiculous. They handed down such a guilt trip to anyone who didn't. Even if you couldn't afford it, you were supposed to tithe anyway. See, if you tithed, Jesus would find a way to solve your money problems. You just have to tithe. Shut up and tithe.
That said, we did have a serious financial fallout about a year after we moved there, and I'm not sure what we would have done if it wasn't for the food we got from the Bishop's Storehouse (a storehouse where food is donated to needy families that are a part of the church). They do do significant humanitarian stuff in developing countries, which is great, but it seems like they're swooping in not so much to give to the needy, but to recruit new members.
I don't mean to offend any practicing Mormons, but when you get to Zion it's like a whole different world.
Wow, this post should be listed in the dictionary under cognitive dissonance.
I was in a couple year realationship with a mormon years ago, met lots of fellow Mormons, most of whom were very wealthy, and very nice. Attended a baptism as well as a pagent of the Joseph Smith story and personally came to the conclusion that they were a common cult, mainly becuase of the importance placed on money going towards the church, and the undeniable infallibility of whoever holds the position of prophet.
Though to their credit I never really felt pressured to join but there was a palpable "holier than thou" atmosphere.
Things pretty much ended when she found http://www.exmormon.org/ in my browser history, I'd been doing some research and read a lot of the stories on that site which definitely influenced my opinion of the church. Not to mention some of the weirder things I saw first-hand that would be uncouth of me to list...
Magic underwear, "party like a rockstar until I go on a mission then it's all ok"-mentality among a large number of the youth and "no homers" style temples among them... but all religions are weird to me
You probably live/lived in Utah. Outside of Utah, the church culture is usually palpably different. But inside, you can definitely get a bit of a cult-ish vibe, the same that you get in rural Pennsylvania or Kentucky or really anywhere with a mostly homogenous culture and religion.
California, I would never live in Utah
Ah, yeah, there's a lot of congress back and forth between Utah and California, so there are some enclaves in California that feel a lot like Utah (I'm looking at you, Ontario/Upland).
I love how in your world, there's no middle ground between 'being a twelve year old crack addict mother' and getting married in your teens. Nice one, Captain Logical. You know it is possible to justify your beliefs without implying that the rest of us are degenerates, right?
It's called contrasting in order to make a point, and at no point did anyone say that people of non-mormon faith (or no faith) were degenerates. If anyone is coming at this from a 'high horse' position... it's you. Get off it & be objective.
No, really, what you said was shitty and insulting to anyone who doesn't share your faith. You're directly claiming that marrying young is the only way to protect against moral degeneracy, something which is demonstrably not true. Don't fucking do it. Have a little class when defending your faith.
I love how in your world, there's no middle ground between 'being a twelve year old crack addict mother' and getting married in your teens. Nice one, Captain Logical. You know it is possible to justify your beliefs without implying that the rest of us are degenerates, right?
It's called contrasting in order to make a point, and at no point did anyone say that people of non-mormon faith (or no faith) were degenerates. If anyone is coming at this from a 'high horse' position... it's you. Get off it & be objective.
No, really, what you said was shitty and insulting to anyone who doesn't share your faith. You're directly claiming that marrying young is the only way to protect against moral degeneracy, something which is demonstrably not true. Don't fucking do it. Have a little class when defending your faith.
I'm not mormon and said nothing insulting. Pay more attention.
If you adhere to a religious belief because you believe that YOU are right and EVERYONE else is wrong; and thus should be converted or subjugated; then you're an ignorant fucktard that deserves to burn in whatever 'hell' you have envisioned for others.
If you firmly believe that people will go to hell if they don't follow your beliefs, how is it not an ethical duty to try to convert them? It's practically akin to taking keys from a drunk driver.
If you adhere to a religious belief because you believe that YOU are right and EVERYONE else is wrong; and thus should be converted or subjugated; then you're an ignorant fucktard that deserves to burn in whatever 'hell' you have envisioned for others.
If you firmly believe that people will go to hell if they don't follow your beliefs, how is it not an ethical duty to try to convert them? It's practically akin to taking keys from a drunk driver.
See my 'ignorant fucktard' description as an answer to your question.
Ignorance isn't a defense. The inability to let people live their lives and accept that other perspectives (even ones you disagree with) aren't necessarily WRONG or BAD just because you don't agree... that's ignorance.
If you adhere to a religious belief because you believe that YOU are right and EVERYONE else is wrong; and thus should be converted or subjugated; then you're an ignorant fucktard that deserves to burn in whatever 'hell' you have envisioned for others.
If you firmly believe that people will go to hell if they don't follow your beliefs, how is it not an ethical duty to try to convert them? It's practically akin to taking keys from a drunk driver.
See my 'ignorant fucktard' description as an answer to your question.
Ignorance isn't a defense. The inability to let people live their lives and accept that other perspectives (even ones you disagree with) aren't necessarily WRONG or BAD just because you don't agree... that's ignorance.
Or maybe it's showing concern for their immortal soul.
If you adhere to a religious belief because you believe that YOU are right and EVERYONE else is wrong; and thus should be converted or subjugated; then you're an ignorant fucktard that deserves to burn in whatever 'hell' you have envisioned for others.
If you firmly believe that people will go to hell if they don't follow your beliefs, how is it not an ethical duty to try to convert them? It's practically akin to taking keys from a drunk driver.
See my 'ignorant fucktard' description as an answer to your question.
Ignorance isn't a defense. The inability to let people live their lives and accept that other perspectives (even ones you disagree with) aren't necessarily WRONG or BAD just because you don't agree... that's ignorance.
Or maybe it's showing concern for their immortal soul.
Maybe it's forcing your belief of an immortal soul upon them.
If you adhere to a religious belief because you believe that YOU are right and EVERYONE else is wrong; and thus should be converted or subjugated; then you're an ignorant fucktard that deserves to burn in whatever 'hell' you have envisioned for others.
If you firmly believe that people will go to hell if they don't follow your beliefs, how is it not an ethical duty to try to convert them? It's practically akin to taking keys from a drunk driver.
See my 'ignorant fucktard' description as an answer to your question.
Ignorance isn't a defense. The inability to let people live their lives and accept that other perspectives (even ones you disagree with) aren't necessarily WRONG or BAD just because you don't agree... that's ignorance.
Or maybe it's showing concern for their immortal soul.
Maybe it's forcing your belief of an immortal soul upon them.
That's what I personally think, yeah. I'm an atheist.
If there is not a doubt in your mind that what you know is true, isn't it unethical to let people suffer damnation without at least trying to help them? I think that the guy on the street corner preaching that you'll go to hell if you don't convert is equally crazy (after all, that belief is core to Christianity), but a lot more caring. He seems to at least be concerned for me.
If you have "no doubt in your mind that what you know is true" then you're ignorant. That's my point of view. You can't know for sure that there is a God and that you're worshipping the right one, in the right way. You can't know that. To claim that you do know, with certainty, is ignorant.
I'm not an Atheist for that very reason. I'm an Apatheist.
Atheist: Denies the existence of God and is generally anti-religious (as implied by the name; A-Theist).
Apatheist: Denies a personal belief of god or adherence to any religion and typically believes that religions have no purpose in modern life.
The statement "I do not believe in god" is enough to make me an Atheist.
Aside from that, the purpose of my statement wasn't to label people as ignorant. It's to explain why, given a belief structure akin to the Christians or Mormons, attempting to convert people is an obligation.
If you have "no doubt in your mind that what you know is true" then you're ignorant. That's my point of view. You can't know for sure that there is a God and that you're worshipping the right one, in the right way. You can't know that. To claim that you do know, with certainty, is ignorant.
I'm not an Atheist for that very reason. I'm an Apatheist.
Atheist: Denies the existence of God and is generally anti-religious (as implied by the name; A-Theist).
Apatheist: Denies a personal belief of god or adherence to any religion and typically believes that religions have no purpose in modern life.
No.
Atheist: Denies a personal belief of god or adherence to any religion and typically believes that religions have no purpose in modern life.
Apatheist: Read a deliciously-coined phrase in the Atlantic in 2003 and decided it made them sound much more disinterested, much more metaphysically hip, than the atheists, so decided to apply the label and sneer at atheists and theists alike.
If you have "no doubt in your mind that what you know is true" then you're ignorant. That's my point of view. You can't know for sure that there is a God and that you're worshipping the right one, in the right way. You can't know that. To claim that you do know, with certainty, is ignorant.
I'm not an Atheist for that very reason. I'm an Apatheist.
Atheist: Denies the existence of God and is generally anti-religious (as implied by the name; A-Theist).
Apatheist: Denies a personal belief of god or adherence to any religion and typically believes that religions have no purpose in modern life.
No.
Atheist: Denies a personal belief of god or adherence to any religion and typically believes that religions have no purpose in modern life.
Apatheist: Read a deliciously-coined phrase in the Atlantic in 2003 and decided it made them sound much more disinterested, much more metaphysically hip, than the atheists, so decided to apply the label and sneer at atheists and theists alike.
No.
I've been identifying myself as an Apatheist since high school, where I first learned about the distinction between Atheists and Apatheists (note: I graduated High School in 1997). Your definition is wrong.
Can we get off the definition wars? I think we all realize the discussion is retarded and off-topic.
It is, but when I'm accused of attempting to be some sort of elitist hipster, when in reality the term Apathiest goes back to the 18th century (first coined by Denis Diderot) then I feel a need to defend myself. Even if the accusation is patently absurd and I shouldn't HAVE to defend myself... at the very least I'm educating the people around me.
wikipedia is interesting, since it's written as though the salamender letters are forgeries. most i have read and/or studied said they are not forgeries and that an entire "they" are covering up the fact that they are in fact real.
any way it goes , this was some serious shit as people were KILLED over the letters.
wikipedia is interesting, since it's written as though the salamender letters are forgeries. most i have read and/or studied said they are not forgeries and that an entire "they" are covering up the fact that they are in fact real.
any way it goes , this was some serious shit as people were KILLED over the letters.
Oh please dont go into this, seriously, it tricked alot of people, mark hoffman made it all up, he stole paper from the 1830s to do so, it does not need to be talked about as if its an actuall issue. Mark Hoffman now sits in his Jail Cell forging document after document, since thats all he can do after he was injured by his own bomb.
As far as members of the church buying up the documents, what do you expect them to do? It was kind of a tense time, and its alot easier to stop distortions of the truth when you controll it, (as horrible as that sentence might sound).
I was raised in a Mormon church til I was about 14 yrs old.
I don’t remember anything about a 33% chance of failure for new souls
But one thing that was very prominent was the belief in baptism for the dead. Meaning people on earth can be baptized on behalf of those who died without being baptized themselves. Doing so saves them from the "Outer Darkness"
That’s why Mormons are so big on genealogy
We used to make long roadtrips to the nearest Temple and have weekend long baptism sessions in these crazy big baptismal fountains sitting on top of golden bull statues which represented the original tribes in the americas.
I also remember an elder telling me that I was not to discuss what goes on in the temple with people outside the church.
meh.
Well since you are already a blasphemer, perhaps you could answer a question I've had for a while:
Is it true there is a certain room in a Mormon temple where newlywed couples consummate the marriage?
I know two former Mormons whose parents are/were Bishops/Deacons who have spoken to me at some length with some of the practices that caused them to leave the religion. This sounds like an exaggeration of the marriage ceremony itself - outsiders aren't allowed into the temple (nor are unmarried LDS women, who are not allowed in the temple unless escorted by their husband), which is why it's generally unknown and mysterious to outsiders. Apparently, the original form of the ceremony had the bride and groom nude while getting married (as symbolism for their nakedness before God or somesuch). In modern days, insofar as I'm aware, this isn't done anymore, but they do wear very loose clothing that allows...access for an anointing or something along those lines. I don't have a source, and I'm not going to google to look for one because I'm at work right now and I'm scared of what sort of results I'd get from a search like that :P
I've soured on the religion from being on the receiving end of what one of those two friends described as the commonplace "practice" amongst LDS females where they'll date - and even really, really like - guys outside of the religion, but will drop them like a hat when a "proper" boy who they like from within the Church comes around.
My other personal beef with the religion is their subversion of Scouting. On the positive side, it's heavily encouraged amongst their youth - no problems with that. I have seen evidence, however, that there is such an emphasis placed upon it that boys are found to have 'failed' if they don't make Eagle Scout, which kinda misses the point. However, in large part because of their emphatic support of scouting, members of their religion have attained a large number of high-ranking roles in the administration of the organization. It's due to this influence that some of the more recent lesser-liked decisions on the part of BSA - not allowing homosexual boys to participate, for example - have arguably been influenced by their religious persuasions and choices. I find myself very disappointed by this.
That being said, the individuals who I've met from the religion are generally among the nicest that I've met. I find some of their convictions to border on creepy, but that's their business, not mine.
1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,
And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,
Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,
Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?
2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?
Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?
Me thinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space,’
Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place.â€
3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;
There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race.
4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;
There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.
There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;
There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth.
5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above.
There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;
There is no end to being; There is no death above.
LDS hymn that one of the aforementioned females told me about which they've apparently tried to...suppress in recent years because of the parallels people draw between Kolob (the highest planet in that afterlife discussion) and the space/planet/etc stuff with the very-much-less popular-scientology. Also, the references to multiple Gods, which implies the whole "you can become God of your own planet" thing.
Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
edited October 2008
Any and all claims of, or ever existing nudity or sexual acts in the temple are false and need to be dropped. Honestly, what some people purport are so against what the church teaches, I wonder how they can actually buy that?
The temple is...a very sacred place, its not that we don't want others to go there, we want the entire world to go there, but what takes place in the temple is of new use unless you have recieved the 1st principles and ordinances of the gospel that is, Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Recieving the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
In the old testament, there was high restrictions on who could enter the temples, and it is the same today. The general phrase that we use is, and you will hear this whenever you ask a member about the temple, is that what goes on there is not secret, but sacred. As I have recieved all of the ordinances of the temple, except for Eternal Marriage, though i have participated in Sealings so i've basically seen a marriage happen. I can tell you that all of the conspiracy theories of what happens there is false.
Honestly, if most of you found out what they actually say and do in the temple, most of you would probably be disapointed in how not exciting it is.
Also on the mention of unmarried woman not being able to enter, untrue. Unmarried woman can recieve the ordinances of the temple just as unmarried men can.
Why are you even bothering to defend this nonsense? You believe it, fine. But seriously, what do you want from people? Especially people on this board, where all religion is treated with this level of skepticism. Your religion has the benefit of being just as much bullshit as any other, but sadly, because it is newer, it just seems like it's MORE bullshit for some reason. Don't worry, time will ease the stigma.
but not the fact that it's bullshit
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Also on the mention of unmarried woman not being able to enter, untrue. Unmarried woman can recieve the ordinances of the temple just as unmarried men can.
I was informed of this by a girl who was not allowed to attend her brother's wedding because it took place in a temple and she was unmarried. I was told about this when I was crashing on her couch while attending the reception following her best friend's marriage, which neither one of us were allowed to attend because we weren't LDS. So while I can't claim firsthand knowledge of refusal, I do know a person who was - at the very least - raised LDS from birth, was the daughter of a bishop, and one of the primary reasons that she left the religion was because she wasn't allowed to see her brother get married because she herself wasn't married. And yes, she was over 18 at the time.
Now, whether this is one of those things which is more strict in Utah and more lax elsewhere, I don't know.
Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
edited October 2008
Element Brian, how is the LDS Church dealing with the fact that it's been decisively demonstrated that all the talk of the Thirteenth Tribe of Israel being in the US is utterly, uncontroversially, unambiguously false?
Posts
My main beef is with the churches. They're all the same and ugly as hell.
You probably live/lived in Utah. Outside of Utah, the church culture is usually palpably different. But inside, you can definitely get a bit of a cult-ish vibe, the same that you get in rural Pennsylvania or Kentucky or really anywhere with a mostly homogenous culture and religion.
Female missionaries had cars, the men had to ride around on bicycles.
I noticed that alot of the youth always went through a phase when they hit their mid teens, when they would run away from home, get heavily into drugs, sex, and alcohol for a year or so, and then come back to their family and the church. Kind of like what the Amish do, but at least they acknowledge it.
I imagine being so sheltered and repressed from the outside world has that effect.
California, I would never live in Utah
One of the guys I went to highschool with was one of nineteen children. Since there was no sex until marriage, everyone either got married the second they turned eighteen (I knew people in high school who were married), or they were married the second they got back from their mission.
When we first moved there, it was difficult to rent a house, the landlords kept asking us what Stake and Ward we were from and who our Bishop was. I attended for a short period (mainly because I had to to be able to get into the Boy Scouts), and they really are a bunch of fucking cultists.
I remember the one sunday of the month when people would "Bear their Testimony", where they pick up a mic and declare that they "Know this church is true" (that line is in every testimony I have ever heard) for a minute or two, tell everyone how much they love the church and their family, and then pass it on to the next person. Every so often you would get a four or five year old child who would "bear their testimony", and you could hear the parent whispering lines for the kid to say into the microphone.
Tithing is ridiculous. They handed down such a guilt trip to anyone who didn't. Even if you couldn't afford it, you were supposed to tithe anyway. See, if you tithed, Jesus would find a way to solve your money problems. You just have to tithe. Shut up and tithe.
That said, we did have a serious financial fallout about a year after we moved there, and I'm not sure what we would have done if it wasn't for the food we got from the Bishop's Storehouse (a storehouse where food is donated to needy families that are a part of the church). They do do significant humanitarian stuff in developing countries, which is great, but it seems like they're swooping in not so much to give to the needy, but to recruit new members.
I don't mean to offend any practicing Mormons, but when you get to Zion it's like a whole different world.
Steam / Bus Blog / Goozex Referral
I've read through just about everything on exmormon and some other anti-sites. I was pretty anti for a long time. I even started bashing my fiance for his family being mormon. I'm not quite sure why I felt the need to, I mean what difference did it make? His family is great, so I really felt like a big jerk and I'm the one that ended up being the douche, even though I'm normally a really nice person
I can't explain the past, but the thing that the good friends I have at church now told me is that everyone, even the prophet of the church, is human. None of us are perfect. Only one human ever was, so a lot of mormons past and present have made mistakes. So has everyone else in any other religion. I just stick to what I believe to be true and have faith in the Lord to lead me in the right direction, which I encourage everyone to do.
As far as clarifying things - well the 12 oxen on the baptismal font for the dead is based out of description from the old testament of Solomon's temple
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon's_Temple
"The brazen Sea (Laver), 10 cubits wide brim to brim, 5 cubits deep and with a circumference of 30 cubits around the brim, rested on the backs of twelve oxen (1 Kings 7:23-26). The Book of Kings gives its capacity as "2,000 baths" (24,000 US gallons), but Chronicles inflates this to three thousand baths (36,000 US gallons) (2 Chr. 4:5-6) and states that its purpose was to afford opportunity for the purification by immersion of the body of the priests. (According to Talmud tractate Mikwaoth, a "bath" of 40 seahs is the minimum permissible size for a Mikvah)."
Caffeine - well some Mormons say you can have it, some say you can't. But it is certainly starting to look not so good:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/17/earlyshow/health/main4267600.shtml
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/16844829/detail.html
I mean, we have basic needs like food and water, but it's sad when you can't function without your "caffiene fix"
Getting married young-
well.. it's better than the pregnant 12 year old crack addicts pumpin'em out like pez ain't it?
There are "singles" church wards where the college age kids go. So you figure if you go to a church where you know everyone is single and has the same beliefs, give it a couple months to find someone into the stuff you like, there's a good probability you'll find someone you want to marry.
Tithing :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithe
It's from the old and new testament! Look at it this way - God gave us the chance to have the money that we do have, and to give some back to him in the form of tithing. That money goes to do the Lord's work. It's a charitable countribution! If you're giving tithing unwillingly then you shouldn't do it at all anyway.
Wow I wrote a lot ><
I'll try to clarify anything I can for those who are confused. I can't promise good explanations - I was just baptized a couple of weeks ago
For every "respect thy neighbour" you'll have a "kill the infidels" and so on.
If you adhere to a religious belief because you feel that it helps YOU in YOUR life, then I could NEVER have anything negative to say about it.
If you adhere to a religious belief because you believe that YOU are right and EVERYONE else is wrong; and thus should be converted or subjugated; then you're an ignorant fucktard that deserves to burn in whatever 'hell' you have envisioned for others.
It's called contrasting in order to make a point, and at no point did anyone say that people of non-mormon faith (or no faith) were degenerates. If anyone is coming at this from a 'high horse' position... it's you. Get off it & be objective.
Wow, this post should be listed in the dictionary under cognitive dissonance.
Ah, yeah, there's a lot of congress back and forth between Utah and California, so there are some enclaves in California that feel a lot like Utah (I'm looking at you, Ontario/Upland).
No, really, what you said was shitty and insulting to anyone who doesn't share your faith. You're directly claiming that marrying young is the only way to protect against moral degeneracy, something which is demonstrably not true. Don't fucking do it. Have a little class when defending your faith.
I'm not mormon and said nothing insulting. Pay more attention.
If you firmly believe that people will go to hell if they don't follow your beliefs, how is it not an ethical duty to try to convert them? It's practically akin to taking keys from a drunk driver.
See my 'ignorant fucktard' description as an answer to your question.
Ignorance isn't a defense. The inability to let people live their lives and accept that other perspectives (even ones you disagree with) aren't necessarily WRONG or BAD just because you don't agree... that's ignorance.
Or maybe it's showing concern for their immortal soul.
Maybe it's forcing your belief of an immortal soul upon them.
That's what I personally think, yeah. I'm an atheist.
If there is not a doubt in your mind that what you know is true, isn't it unethical to let people suffer damnation without at least trying to help them? I think that the guy on the street corner preaching that you'll go to hell if you don't convert is equally crazy (after all, that belief is core to Christianity), but a lot more caring. He seems to at least be concerned for me.
I'm not an Atheist for that very reason. I'm an Apatheist.
Atheist: Denies the existence of God and is generally anti-religious (as implied by the name; A-Theist).
Apatheist: Denies a personal belief of god or adherence to any religion and typically believes that religions have no purpose in modern life.
Aside from that, the purpose of my statement wasn't to label people as ignorant. It's to explain why, given a belief structure akin to the Christians or Mormons, attempting to convert people is an obligation.
No.
Atheist: Denies a personal belief of god or adherence to any religion and typically believes that religions have no purpose in modern life.
Apatheist: Read a deliciously-coined phrase in the Atlantic in 2003 and decided it made them sound much more disinterested, much more metaphysically hip, than the atheists, so decided to apply the label and sneer at atheists and theists alike.
No.
I've been identifying myself as an Apatheist since high school, where I first learned about the distinction between Atheists and Apatheists (note: I graduated High School in 1997). Your definition is wrong.
Just like the Sandwich Artists at Subway.
It is, but when I'm accused of attempting to be some sort of elitist hipster, when in reality the term Apathiest goes back to the 18th century (first coined by Denis Diderot) then I feel a need to defend myself. Even if the accusation is patently absurd and I shouldn't HAVE to defend myself... at the very least I'm educating the people around me.
wikipedia is interesting, since it's written as though the salamender letters are forgeries. most i have read and/or studied said they are not forgeries and that an entire "they" are covering up the fact that they are in fact real.
any way it goes , this was some serious shit as people were KILLED over the letters.
Agreed.
I've backed off so far that I'm having trouble seeing you. Good 'nuff?
Oh please dont go into this, seriously, it tricked alot of people, mark hoffman made it all up, he stole paper from the 1830s to do so, it does not need to be talked about as if its an actuall issue. Mark Hoffman now sits in his Jail Cell forging document after document, since thats all he can do after he was injured by his own bomb.
As far as members of the church buying up the documents, what do you expect them to do? It was kind of a tense time, and its alot easier to stop distortions of the truth when you controll it, (as horrible as that sentence might sound).
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
I know two former Mormons whose parents are/were Bishops/Deacons who have spoken to me at some length with some of the practices that caused them to leave the religion. This sounds like an exaggeration of the marriage ceremony itself - outsiders aren't allowed into the temple (nor are unmarried LDS women, who are not allowed in the temple unless escorted by their husband), which is why it's generally unknown and mysterious to outsiders. Apparently, the original form of the ceremony had the bride and groom nude while getting married (as symbolism for their nakedness before God or somesuch). In modern days, insofar as I'm aware, this isn't done anymore, but they do wear very loose clothing that allows...access for an anointing or something along those lines. I don't have a source, and I'm not going to google to look for one because I'm at work right now and I'm scared of what sort of results I'd get from a search like that :P
I've soured on the religion from being on the receiving end of what one of those two friends described as the commonplace "practice" amongst LDS females where they'll date - and even really, really like - guys outside of the religion, but will drop them like a hat when a "proper" boy who they like from within the Church comes around.
My other personal beef with the religion is their subversion of Scouting. On the positive side, it's heavily encouraged amongst their youth - no problems with that. I have seen evidence, however, that there is such an emphasis placed upon it that boys are found to have 'failed' if they don't make Eagle Scout, which kinda misses the point. However, in large part because of their emphatic support of scouting, members of their religion have attained a large number of high-ranking roles in the administration of the organization. It's due to this influence that some of the more recent lesser-liked decisions on the part of BSA - not allowing homosexual boys to participate, for example - have arguably been influenced by their religious persuasions and choices. I find myself very disappointed by this.
That being said, the individuals who I've met from the religion are generally among the nicest that I've met. I find some of their convictions to border on creepy, but that's their business, not mine.
And now, for some fun:
LDS hymn that one of the aforementioned females told me about which they've apparently tried to...suppress in recent years because of the parallels people draw between Kolob (the highest planet in that afterlife discussion) and the space/planet/etc stuff with the very-much-less popular-scientology. Also, the references to multiple Gods, which implies the whole "you can become God of your own planet" thing.
I love you necroSYS.
This is the best post.
The temple is...a very sacred place, its not that we don't want others to go there, we want the entire world to go there, but what takes place in the temple is of new use unless you have recieved the 1st principles and ordinances of the gospel that is, Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Recieving the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
In the old testament, there was high restrictions on who could enter the temples, and it is the same today. The general phrase that we use is, and you will hear this whenever you ask a member about the temple, is that what goes on there is not secret, but sacred. As I have recieved all of the ordinances of the temple, except for Eternal Marriage, though i have participated in Sealings so i've basically seen a marriage happen. I can tell you that all of the conspiracy theories of what happens there is false.
Honestly, if most of you found out what they actually say and do in the temple, most of you would probably be disapointed in how not exciting it is.
Also on the mention of unmarried woman not being able to enter, untrue. Unmarried woman can recieve the ordinances of the temple just as unmarried men can.
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOh4g_FLIM
I was informed of this by a girl who was not allowed to attend her brother's wedding because it took place in a temple and she was unmarried. I was told about this when I was crashing on her couch while attending the reception following her best friend's marriage, which neither one of us were allowed to attend because we weren't LDS. So while I can't claim firsthand knowledge of refusal, I do know a person who was - at the very least - raised LDS from birth, was the daughter of a bishop, and one of the primary reasons that she left the religion was because she wasn't allowed to see her brother get married because she herself wasn't married. And yes, she was over 18 at the time.
Now, whether this is one of those things which is more strict in Utah and more lax elsewhere, I don't know.