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Why can't RPGs be more like DBZ? flame on!
slurpeepoop
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Yeah, the DBZ stands for Dragonball Z, and before you all lose your composure and start posting "nine thouuusssaand!!!!!!" over and over again, read the goddamn post.
Since I've been sick this weekend, I've had plenty of time to play Cap'n Level Grinder in a couple of RPGs lately, and I've noticed that every game I can think of (besides Progress Quest, which is a phenomenally deep game, but my PC can't handle the high graphics requirements) has a limit to the level any PC can xp his way up to.
Now, back in the 8 bit days, it was understandable because the might of the 8 bits could only go so far, and the max number it could process using the power of hexidecimal numbers was 65355. Since you were limited to such a small number, RPGs of the day had to work with this number to level you up.
Dragon Warrior (or Dragon Quest) only got you up to level 30, and Final Fantasy went to 50 (IIRC?), and as time went on, and bigger, more powerful machines rolled out, we started getting higher levels, more max xp, and so forth.
However, here we sit on the cusp of 2007 (well, everyone besides us Americans are already into the new year), and we're still limited to the growth our characters can attain.
It's not a limit in the technology, and as we've seen with MMOs and that pic of Disgaea's lvl 9999 guy someone will surely post, people are willing to take the time to grind their PCs into godhood. Most RPGs now can be beaten by characters in mid-levels, and yet many people enjoy grinding all the way to 100 (or higher). Where's the harm in taking off that level cap?
In Dragonball, the main characters went from funny midgets who were little better than the average person to people who had the power to destroy a galaxy without even trying. I bet Goku wasn't limited to just 100 levels to attain a power level of eleventy four hojillion.
Why can't someone make an RPG where there is no max level, where there is no "max stats"? It would be a simple matter to just add a couple attribute points or another point in a special ability at every level, and it would get many people to play a lot longer. I think it'd be fun as hell to level your guys up to crazy levels and beat the piss out of enemies that caused me trouble a few levels back, especially in MMOs.
Since we now live in a world of microtransactions and online leaderboards, you'd think it would be a popular decision to allow players to level their characters to insane levels, since it would keep players engrossed in the game, and I feel MMOs would benefit greatly from this lack of restriction. I think there would be many, many people who would keep playing an MMO that they would ordinarily leave if they weren't limited to the level their PC could get to.
Like I said earlier, I'm sick, I've been medicated, and everyone's abandoned me so they can go party like it's on sale for $19.99, so maybe I'm just ranting like a moron, but I can't be the only guy who thinks level caps really need to go. For such a small bit of code, it could add unlimited hours of play in a game that many people would quit playing because they've maxed out their guys and there's nothing else to do.
Since I've been sick this weekend, I've had plenty of time to play Cap'n Level Grinder in a couple of RPGs lately, and I've noticed that every game I can think of (besides Progress Quest, which is a phenomenally deep game, but my PC can't handle the high graphics requirements) has a limit to the level any PC can xp his way up to.
Now, back in the 8 bit days, it was understandable because the might of the 8 bits could only go so far, and the max number it could process using the power of hexidecimal numbers was 65355. Since you were limited to such a small number, RPGs of the day had to work with this number to level you up.
Dragon Warrior (or Dragon Quest) only got you up to level 30, and Final Fantasy went to 50 (IIRC?), and as time went on, and bigger, more powerful machines rolled out, we started getting higher levels, more max xp, and so forth.
However, here we sit on the cusp of 2007 (well, everyone besides us Americans are already into the new year), and we're still limited to the growth our characters can attain.
It's not a limit in the technology, and as we've seen with MMOs and that pic of Disgaea's lvl 9999 guy someone will surely post, people are willing to take the time to grind their PCs into godhood. Most RPGs now can be beaten by characters in mid-levels, and yet many people enjoy grinding all the way to 100 (or higher). Where's the harm in taking off that level cap?
In Dragonball, the main characters went from funny midgets who were little better than the average person to people who had the power to destroy a galaxy without even trying. I bet Goku wasn't limited to just 100 levels to attain a power level of eleventy four hojillion.
Why can't someone make an RPG where there is no max level, where there is no "max stats"? It would be a simple matter to just add a couple attribute points or another point in a special ability at every level, and it would get many people to play a lot longer. I think it'd be fun as hell to level your guys up to crazy levels and beat the piss out of enemies that caused me trouble a few levels back, especially in MMOs.
Since we now live in a world of microtransactions and online leaderboards, you'd think it would be a popular decision to allow players to level their characters to insane levels, since it would keep players engrossed in the game, and I feel MMOs would benefit greatly from this lack of restriction. I think there would be many, many people who would keep playing an MMO that they would ordinarily leave if they weren't limited to the level their PC could get to.
Like I said earlier, I'm sick, I've been medicated, and everyone's abandoned me so they can go party like it's on sale for $19.99, so maybe I'm just ranting like a moron, but I can't be the only guy who thinks level caps really need to go. For such a small bit of code, it could add unlimited hours of play in a game that many people would quit playing because they've maxed out their guys and there's nothing else to do.
slurpeepoop on
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Well, if it were in MMOs like WOW, then it'd be addicting like crack. I mean, no limits. No way to complete the game 100% because there is no maxing out of stats. Maybe a sense of completion and the such. It would make for messy...stat stuff? I don't know, I guess it'd kinda be like the whole DBZ thing.
My character level is HOJILLION!
My character level is hojillion + 1
Something to that extent, with no limits and ceilings.
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAND
I'm Jacob Wilson. | facebook | thegreat2nd | [url="aim:goim?screenname=TheGreatSecond&message=Hello+from+the+Penny+Arcade+Forums!"]aim[/url]
Hahahaha.
That would be so great.
No no no.
Do you have any idea how many variations of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan or WHOEVER there would be?
Gokkuu
Gokue
Gokua
Vegeeeta
Vigeta
Vegitta
Vegeetta
Gohann
Gohhann
Gohannn
Goehan
I could go on for literally a month with all the characters.
Expansions would just add new lands, new critters, new items, and new special moves. There would be no need to restrict levels, since Pokemon is all about collecting.
There'll be over NINE THOUSAND!!!!!
Ahem, anyway. Yeah, a DBZ mmo sounds really cool in theory. However, in practice, it might end up being a horrible abomination.
One of the games I wanted so badly to have no cap was Morrowind. It was fun boosting your stats beyond 100 but I always wished that I could just keep going until I was so powerful I could leap across the isle in one bound and create spells that could decimate whole towns.
Fuck it, I would love to have the ability to annihilate even the mightiest of bosses in a blow or two so long as I was willing to put the effort into levelling my character so, balance be damned
Where Madness and the Fantasical Come to Play
Hey! That's not necessarily true! I mean, look at.. um.. well.. Budokai isn't that bad. And I'm sure there are some other, lesser known, games out there.
And GT Final Bout was alright, I think.
I'm Jacob Wilson. | facebook | thegreat2nd | [url="aim:goim?screenname=TheGreatSecond&message=Hello+from+the+Penny+Arcade+Forums!"]aim[/url]
But no GT.
That's exactly what I'm talking about, and I bet you would have put in extra hours in playing just for that purpose.
When I get engrossed in building up my guys, it always ruins some of the fun when they hit their max level, and takes away my desire to play further, because there's just no more room for improvement.
Endless grinding, however, does not make for a fun time, even if the result is that you become the universe itself.
I am aware of this, which made having the level cap even more of a hinderance, if it was possible to fluke your way into the godlike realms then why wouldn't it be possible to (especially as you were a god reborn) push yourself past the everyday physical limits?
Another game that pissed me off with the level cap was KOTOR. at level 20 my character did not seem like the all powerful [spoiler:d83c8f710c] Darth Revan[/spoiler:d83c8f710c]
[spoiler:d83c8f710c]I wanted to be able to mop the floor with the endless throngs of dark jedi on the Star Forge, an unstoppable killing machine hell bent on vengance. Instead I was forced to watch my health incase the puny might of the dark jedi became to much, it was simply an anti-climax[/spoiler:d83c8f710c]
Where Madness and the Fantasical Come to Play
It would basically be the biggest power trip ever.
Imagine: There are no traditional levels in which you must get a certain amount of experience to get to the next level. The experience you get from fighting pretty much just translates into your power level over time. Fight hard and your power level goes up. You don't necessarily have to win fights, all you got to do is fight. The harder you fight, the faster you level up. Eventually as you get better, you MUST fight harder in order to get stronger, or else nothing happens.
However, since there are no caps on how powerful you can become, there should be a sort of "permanent death" system where if your character dies he goes to HELL (however, you can still train in hell and become stronger in spirit, but you are still dead). This gives people incentive to become stronger and more powerful, even IF they are already strong and powerful, so some punk doesn't show up one day who is a little bit stronger and kills you. People who die can still be brought back anyway by finding the dragon balls and getting wished back. But theres only 7 in the whole world...
It basically came down to dying repeatedly to people who came before you, because you were too weak to win any fights.
I'm kinda cut off from the idea of a DB MMO as a result
It is fun to have godlike characters who can dish out massive damage in the over 9000 variety but then you realize it's not really challenging, kind of like having an Omega Tom Hanks in a fighting game. You might be able to develop some sort of enemy autoleveling system ala Oblivion, but not much people were big fans of that system.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/BlindProphet
Although I'm not really into the genre, I could definitely imagine MMOs becoming ridiculously have and have-nots if there were no level caps. I can just envision people exploiting this and perhaps ruining the experience for those who just wanted to hack away the old fashioned way or couldn't spend a lot of time building up. I remember I played that Kings of Chaos click game a while ago and got really turned off that I could never ever win because I wasn't in so and so group and didn't have so and so program to click a million times for me and what have you. Then again, I suppose that's the way it works, the strong will win.
But yeah, SaGa Frontier and others similar definitely had systems I enjoyed as an alternative to race to level 99 and be done with it.
From where I'm standing it's basically making the whole concept kinda meaningless. I mean, it's one thing to persue the whole "Someone is always better than you!" phenomenon, this is something completely different.
I remember a mod for BG1 that effectively removed the level limit. Or at the very least put it very high. At a certain point, though, any real benefits gained from levelling seemed to stop completely, and each level gained (through console commands, mind you) pretty much came down to "Yay! I got X more HP!"
However, I don't think there's a way to set up your own moves and shout them out online...
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197970666737/
DB Saga? I played there. I worked there. I built HFIL. Then it died. Now there are clones.
I was going to bring up that MUD, because there was basically no end to the game. The character with the highest powerlevel was in the billions, and he could get into the trillions when he powered up. All you could realy do after a certain point was spar other players, but a great MMO could fix that.
It'd be awesome.
The MUD had a sort of 'elite upper crust' that had been playing for a long time. They were there the moment the game came back up from the last wipe, and they played a lot. The only people the top 10 could fight with to increase their power was each other.
There might have been five asses there, and five nice people. But! The five asses had to hold back, or the other five people would just not train with them. And then they were screwed.
So if you're the #1 person on your sever, and you piss everyone off, and the only PC/NPC powerful enough to give you 'exp' is the #2 person...you're screwed. The #2 and lower are going to catch up and then surpass you.
Like I said, I was there for a long time...I saw all this happen. It'd work, just need to be well made. Also, letting people name their own attacks is a bad idea...just going to be a lot of shit in there. Having employees have to approve them is the only way (bad names would probably be reported as often as in WoW) and they don't really have the time for that.
Could someone please explain the attraction to this concept? Characters becoming more powerful as you log more hours ingame can be fun, but surely there has to be some limit to attainable power in order to continue presenting a challenge, and a reason to play?
This is basically the same way I feel. There has to be a limit, otherwise who will you contend with?
If you are the best, and you achieve a level way above anyone else, what do you do? Sure, having the ability to merely blink in someone's direction and causing them to explode, their soul shattering into thousands of peices before vaporizing into dust sounds fun, but it's going to get boring fast.
Part of what makes games fun is challenge. You need to have something to keep aiming for or else you'll get very bored very fast.
It was an endless cycle. Let me just say that I was, at certain points, the most powerful member of a race. With two different races. And you couldn't play two characters at once.
"Everyone who is capable of logical thought should be able to see why you shouldn't sell lifetime subscriptions to an MMO. Cell phone companies and drug dealers don't offer lifetime subscriptions either, guess why?" - Mugaaz
Oh, and skippable cutscenes. For the love of god skippable cutscenes.
This guy nailed it.
The levelling system in most MMO games has nothing to do with roleplaying, and is just the way it is because it's the way everyone does it. Also it's highly addictive until you hit the cap.
BALDUR'S GATE SAGA
See, that's why I hate console RPGs(1) and most MMORPGs...you only play them for stats. Stats in Baldur's Gate aren't even that important, but the developers actually made leveling up worthwile by adding specific abilities, spells, etc. It's not just a matter of removing the level cap, you'd have the program the game to infinity.
(1) Actually, I even find the RPG label a bit sketchy.