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Wheel of Time: Towers of Midnight

145791031

Posts

  • Lady EriLady Eri Registered User
    edited February 2010
    adejaan wrote: »
    If anyone actually does want to run a WoT Phalla, let me know. I started writing some roles for one a long time ago and never got around to finishing them...although they might need some tweaking, I think I had Elaida as a vigilante in the Tower kitchens or something.


    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=27678&highlight=Wheel+Time

    Lady Eri on
    The Wheel of Calculadon turns, and then suddenly? Orbital lasers.
  • adejaanadejaan Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Lady Eri wrote: »
    adejaan wrote: »
    If anyone actually does want to run a WoT Phalla, let me know. I started writing some roles for one a long time ago and never got around to finishing them...although they might need some tweaking, I think I had Elaida as a vigilante in the Tower kitchens or something.


    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?t=27678&highlight=Wheel+Time

    Wasn't that one more of a joke one, being in SE and everything? I was going for a more serious one.

    adejaan on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I wonder how much of the improvements in this book where Jordan realizing his character's had devolved into terrible caricatures and fixing it, and how much Sanderson bringing some fresh insight to the whole thing. Because it's amazing that the series has managed to make these people likable again.

    I don't see why this comes up. The characters haven't really changed at all really between KoD and TGS. I mean, they evolve as the story goes on, but there's no big massive change where suddenly the characters in TGS are completely different.

    Well, other then Mat feeling a bit off in how he was written.

    They are completely different in that reading chapters from their PoV no longer makes me cringe. Which is amazing.

    Perrin is the most dramatic and obvious, and it pretty much straight up acknowledges that he has been on a shitty derail for like the last five books.

    But Egwene has seriously toned down her stupid bitch qualities, though they still creep in there at times.

    And Rand, while still emo, and still going on about being hard and shit, is at least less repetitive about it and actually does other things and goes crazy psycho and shit.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I wonder how much of the improvements in this book where Jordan realizing his character's had devolved into terrible caricatures and fixing it, and how much Sanderson bringing some fresh insight to the whole thing. Because it's amazing that the series has managed to make these people likable again.

    I don't see why this comes up. The characters haven't really changed at all really between KoD and TGS. I mean, they evolve as the story goes on, but there's no big massive change where suddenly the characters in TGS are completely different.

    Well, other then Mat feeling a bit off in how he was written.

    They are completely different in that reading chapters from their PoV no longer makes me cringe. Which is amazing.

    Perrin is the most dramatic and obvious, and it pretty much straight up acknowledges that he has been on a shitty derail for like the last five books.

    But Egwene has seriously toned down her stupid bitch qualities, though they still creep in there at times.

    And Rand, while still emo, and still going on about being hard and shit, is at least less repetitive about it and actually does other things and goes crazy psycho and shit.

    If that was your issue then yes, RJ planned that all along. It's the characters arcs.

    shryke on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I wonder how much of the improvements in this book where Jordan realizing his character's had devolved into terrible caricatures and fixing it, and how much Sanderson bringing some fresh insight to the whole thing. Because it's amazing that the series has managed to make these people likable again.

    I don't see why this comes up. The characters haven't really changed at all really between KoD and TGS. I mean, they evolve as the story goes on, but there's no big massive change where suddenly the characters in TGS are completely different.

    Well, other then Mat feeling a bit off in how he was written.

    They are completely different in that reading chapters from their PoV no longer makes me cringe. Which is amazing.

    Perrin is the most dramatic and obvious, and it pretty much straight up acknowledges that he has been on a shitty derail for like the last five books.

    But Egwene has seriously toned down her stupid bitch qualities, though they still creep in there at times.

    And Rand, while still emo, and still going on about being hard and shit, is at least less repetitive about it and actually does other things and goes crazy psycho and shit.

    If that was your issue then yes, RJ planned that all along. It's the characters arcs.

    I am not convinced.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    I wonder how much of the improvements in this book where Jordan realizing his character's had devolved into terrible caricatures and fixing it, and how much Sanderson bringing some fresh insight to the whole thing. Because it's amazing that the series has managed to make these people likable again.

    I don't see why this comes up. The characters haven't really changed at all really between KoD and TGS. I mean, they evolve as the story goes on, but there's no big massive change where suddenly the characters in TGS are completely different.

    Well, other then Mat feeling a bit off in how he was written.

    They are completely different in that reading chapters from their PoV no longer makes me cringe. Which is amazing.

    Perrin is the most dramatic and obvious, and it pretty much straight up acknowledges that he has been on a shitty derail for like the last five books.

    But Egwene has seriously toned down her stupid bitch qualities, though they still creep in there at times.

    And Rand, while still emo, and still going on about being hard and shit, is at least less repetitive about it and actually does other things and goes crazy psycho and shit.

    If that was your issue then yes, RJ planned that all along. It's the characters arcs.

    I am not convinced.

    Perrin has been drifting slowly back from being an obsessive pscyo for a few books now. COT is essentially his nadir and that's when he throws the axe away due to his recognition of this. KOD makes a big deal of him being fucking crazy over this whole thing and how that's bad. With Faile back, it's time for him to reassess his choices and decide what he actually wants to be and do. This will almost certainly happen in the next book and will essentially set his character up for the Last Battle and his position at the end of the series.

    Egwene has been growing as a person for ages now and in TGS steps up to be a real leader. This has been coming for ages. And also, she's still a bitch.

    Rand just finally went over the edge. It's been foreshadowed for ages now.

    shryke on
  • SpacemilkSpacemilk Registered User
    edited February 2010
    ...Are you guys sure you're not mixing up Nynaeve and Egwene? Egwene really never annoyed me too badly with bitchiness, but godDAMN I wanted to strangle Nynaeve.

    Spacemilk on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    No, you see we always knew that braid tugger was ridiculous, thereby her recent improvement is more substantial.

    Egwene starts harmless and likable, becomes a total monster, stays a total monster, and then gets better after people start whipping her twice daily.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Woo! Finished TGS. What an improvement holy crap.

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • SpacemilkSpacemilk Registered User
    edited February 2010
    I'm rereading the series (yeah yeah I know I'm crazy) as of last night, and I noticed something at the beginning of book one - RJ's description of Ishamael "Traveling" into Lews Therin's home is... different from how we have seen traveling since its "rediscovery". The description makes it sound like Ishamael materialized, as opposed to stepping through an opening.

    What's also interesting is that we've seen other Forsaken use the "doorway" method and not the materialization method... Anyway, stupid inconsequential detail, but I wonder if it was deliberate or a mistake.

    (also I don't want this thread to die now that I'm rereading the books!)

    Spacemilk on
  • EnderEnder Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Hrm. Not having the book in front of me, are you certain he Traveled?

    Maybe he just was doing the Invisible trick, and faded into view for dramatic effect.

    Then again, the first book shouldn't even be considered canon in terms of the OP. Sooooo many things changed from his first conception.

    Ender on
    eahenryii wrote: »

    i've resorted to reading your posts in William Shatner's voice.

    I am now using the Christopher Walken voice.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I'm rereading the series (yeah yeah I know I'm crazy) as of last night, and I noticed something at the beginning of book one - RJ's description of Ishamael "Traveling" into Lews Therin's home is... different from how we have seen traveling since its "rediscovery". The description makes it sound like Ishamael materialized, as opposed to stepping through an opening.

    What's also interesting is that we've seen other Forsaken use the "doorway" method and not the materialization method... Anyway, stupid inconsequential detail, but I wonder if it was deliberate or a mistake.

    (also I don't want this thread to die now that I'm rereading the books!)

    He might be using the True Power.

    In fact, I'd guarantee you he is.

    I don't know exactly how travelling with the True Power looks though.

    shryke on
  • EnderEnder Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Per Moridin's TP-Travelling goodness, he tears a hole into reality and steps through.

    So, from what I can imagine, similar to OP Travelling, with more ragged edges.

    Ender on
    eahenryii wrote: »

    i've resorted to reading your posts in William Shatner's voice.

    I am now using the Christopher Walken voice.
  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    If I remember right, in that intro, LTT turned around and Ishamael was standing there where there was no one earlier. Or maybe he just dropped an invis curtain or something.

    I like how in the new one, Sanderson acknowledged some of the silly stuff.
    Like Egwene saying the Aess Sedai penances were ridiculous.
    THANK YOU!
    I never noticed it the first couple times I read the series, but as the later books came it out was like, man Jordan really seems to have a spanking fetish.

    Tofystedeth on
    steam_sig.png
  • SpacemilkSpacemilk Registered User
    edited February 2010
    It said something about how the air shimmered and he appeared. I'm at work so I don't have the book right in front of me, but I'll try to find the exact words later. Based on my rememberance I'd guess that it has to do with Moridin using the True Power rather than the invisibility trick, though really it could be either. The True Power reason would explain why none of the other Forsaken Travel that way.

    Also what exactly are all the differences between the True and One Power? Is the True Power purely from TDO? Can you access it any other way? I figured that's what Rand was using in this last book, due to the references about a "darkness" being around him.

    Spacemilk on
  • iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    From what I can remember the differences between the OP and the TP is primarily in the source. Also, the TP is addicting and can't be sensed by users of either sex.

    iguanacus on
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I think it's probably just a continuity error. It happens.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    It said something about how the air shimmered and he appeared. I'm at work so I don't have the book right in front of me, but I'll try to find the exact words later. Based on my rememberance I'd guess that it has to do with Moridin using the True Power rather than the invisibility trick, though really it could be either. The True Power reason would explain why none of the other Forsaken Travel that way.

    Also what exactly are all the differences between the True and One Power? Is the True Power purely from TDO? Can you access it any other way? I figured that's what Rand was using in this last book, due to the references about a "darkness" being around him.

    TP is the Dark One, or at the very least granted by him
    Rand did use it when collared and its speculated thats why he was going so far off the deep end
    and Moridin's traveling trick with the TP is repeated from his POV during one of the middle later books, maybe POD? When he's watching the girls leave to activate the Bowl of Winds. He definitely uses the TP to travel there and its described similarly to the scene you're describing.

    Z0re on
  • LindenLinden Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    iguanacus wrote: »
    From what I can remember the differences between the OP and the TP is primarily in the source. Also, the TP is addicting and can't be sensed by users of either sex.

    Essentially correct. I recall hints that all forms of the Power are addictive, the True Power just especially so. The gholam can pick up on it, and TDO ostensibly controls access.
    The resonance between Rand and Moridin aside, of course (assuming this is the relevant mechanism). There's also a suggestion that it's extremely powerful, although it's unclear what the reasoning behind this is – perhaps it's inherent, perhaps TDO controls the access limits as well.

    Z0re: I get the feeling that the 'deep end' thing is more long term than that usage.

    Linden on
    What if this weren't a rhetorical question?
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Linden wrote: »
    iguanacus wrote: »
    From what I can remember the differences between the OP and the TP is primarily in the source. Also, the TP is addicting and can't be sensed by users of either sex.

    Essentially correct. I recall hints that all forms of the Power are addictive, the True Power just especially so. The gholam can pick up on it, and TDO ostensibly controls access.
    The resonance between Rand and Moridin aside, of course (assuming this is the relevant mechanism). There's also a suggestion that it's extremely powerful, although it's unclear what the reasoning behind this is – perhaps it's inherent, perhaps TDO controls the access limits as well.

    Z0re: I get the feeling that the 'deep end' thing is more long term than that usage.
    It implied at the end of the book that Rand had stepped back from the deep end, though, so while it was more long term than just when he first used it it didn't last too long. And Moridin has been using it like candy and isn't totally bonkers yet it seems, so it must not have an immediate permanent effect.

    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • LindenLinden Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Linden wrote: »
    iguanacus wrote: »
    From what I can remember the differences between the OP and the TP is primarily in the source. Also, the TP is addicting and can't be sensed by users of either sex.

    Essentially correct. I recall hints that all forms of the Power are addictive, the True Power just especially so. The gholam can pick up on it, and TDO ostensibly controls access.
    The resonance between Rand and Moridin aside, of course (assuming this is the relevant mechanism). There's also a suggestion that it's extremely powerful, although it's unclear what the reasoning behind this is – perhaps it's inherent, perhaps TDO controls the access limits as well.

    Z0re: I get the feeling that the 'deep end' thing is more long term than that usage.
    It implied at the end of the book that Rand had stepped back from the deep end, though, so while it was more long term than just when he first used it it didn't last too long. And Moridin has been using it like candy and isn't totally bonkers yet it seems, so it must not have an immediate permanent effect.
    Sorry.
    What I was getting at there is that that's the only instance where we know of Rand using the True Power. My conclusion is that his response is less a product of his access to it than his reaction to finding out that there was a Domination Band floating about the camp, and that he'd just had a reprise of the box incident. He's been debatably mad for quite a few books now, and the conclusion of TGS is pretty much the start of the resolution of the whole 'laughter and tears' thing they've been going on about.
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    It is absolutely an example of that. The rules surrounding it are extremely unclear – in-universe, this is probably because TDO comes across as a strange blend of malevolent and insane, and, if Moridin is anything to go by (and I realise that this is questionable, given that he suggests he's playing both sides), actually looking forward to the final showdown.

    In a way, it's a bit like Travelling, in that it's an incredibly powerful tool used 'correctly', but not actually applied. There are a few elements like that, actually, where protagonists and antagonists alike could cripple enemies with a little application of either strategy (hit and jump), or overwhelming force (from one parody):
    Bashere: There are reports of a huge Seanchan army with hundreds of damane advancing towards Illian. You command over a million soldiers, and hundreds of Asha'man.
    Rand: I will take 5,000 soldiers and eight Asha’man.
    Bashere: It should work. With your mediocre planning and surrounding yourself with those who hate you, once again, you should just barely avoid complete disaster.

    Linden on
    What if this weren't a rhetorical question?
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Linden wrote: »
    Sorry.
    What I was getting at there is that that's the only instance where we know of Rand using the True Power. My conclusion is that his response is less a product of his access to it than his reaction to finding out that there was a Domination Band floating about the camp, and that he'd just had a reprise of the box incident. He's been debatably mad for quite a few books now, and the conclusion of TGS is pretty much the start of the resolution of the whole 'laughter and tears' thing they've been going on about.

    What I meant
    Rand has been crazy, starting from very early in book one, as he's been rejecting the Lews Therin memories and building an entirely separate persona in his head because he just couldn't deal with it. The True Power touch sort of sent him over the edge and seemed to screw with his Ta'veren abilities, ie. all the random chances started going obscenely bad instead of a random mix of good and bad. The 'Dark Cloud' surrounding him, I speculate, was a result of his TP usage. Remember the TP is horribly addictive and seductive, even moreso than the OP which has some really nasty withdrawal symptoms itself.

    Z0re on
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    Nothing in the books shows that the True Power is actually better than the other sources except for a few limited tasks. It also happens to drive you insane if used and unlike saidin and saidar willpower alone doesn't seem to be enough to stop from channeling it.

    khain on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    We don't know the limits of the TP though.

    We DO know it's insanely addictive, comes directly from the Dark One (I believe there's been implications it IS essentially the Dark One) and even the Forsaken are scared shitless of using it. It's got alot of nasty side-effects.

    And we don't know it's power compared to the One Power.

    Also, remember that the Dark One's plan doesn't involve killing Rand. Not yet anyway.
    I never noticed it the first couple times I read the series, but as the later books came it out was like, man Jordan really seems to have a spanking fetish.

    Ugh, please don't start this crap. I hear this from some people and it's a ridiculous meme with no real support in the text.

    There's almost no spanking in the books. It shows up like .... 3 or so times.

    shryke on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    We don't know the limits of the TP though.

    We DO know it's insanely addictive, comes directly from the Dark One (I believe there's been implications it IS essentially the Dark One) and even the Forsaken are scared shitless of using it. It's got alot of nasty side-effects.

    And we don't know it's power compared to the One Power.

    Also, remember that the Dark One's plan doesn't involve killing Rand. Not yet anyway.
    I never noticed it the first couple times I read the series, but as the later books came it out was like, man Jordan really seems to have a spanking fetish.

    Ugh, please don't start this crap. I hear this from some people and it's a ridiculous meme with no real support in the text.

    There's almost no spanking in the books. It shows up like .... 3 or so times.

    Explicitly, yes.

    It's implied all over the goddamn place, though.

    Salvation122 on
    sig.png
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    We don't know the limits of the TP though.

    We DO know it's insanely addictive, comes directly from the Dark One (I believe there's been implications it IS essentially the Dark One) and even the Forsaken are scared shitless of using it. It's got alot of nasty side-effects.

    And we don't know it's power compared to the One Power.

    Also, remember that the Dark One's plan doesn't involve killing Rand. Not yet anyway.
    I never noticed it the first couple times I read the series, but as the later books came it out was like, man Jordan really seems to have a spanking fetish.

    Ugh, please don't start this crap. I hear this from some people and it's a ridiculous meme with no real support in the text.

    There's almost no spanking in the books. It shows up like .... 3 or so times.

    We know it's AT LEAST equivalent to the the One Power. Otherwise Sammy just felt like letting herself die. It's done a number of things the OP can do and most important it's not detectable. That alone makes it far more powerful than the One Power. One guy could drop dozens before they even realized something was wrong. I mean, it's such a over powered device it almost has to some have other limitation we haven't seen yet. Spin a billion webs of the stuff all over and let your enemies just walk into it etc etc. Of course, inverted webs have the same problem, they're criminally underused.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    We don't know the limits of the TP though.

    We DO know it's insanely addictive, comes directly from the Dark One (I believe there's been implications it IS essentially the Dark One) and even the Forsaken are scared shitless of using it. It's got alot of nasty side-effects.

    And we don't know it's power compared to the One Power.

    Also, remember that the Dark One's plan doesn't involve killing Rand. Not yet anyway.
    I never noticed it the first couple times I read the series, but as the later books came it out was like, man Jordan really seems to have a spanking fetish.

    Ugh, please don't start this crap. I hear this from some people and it's a ridiculous meme with no real support in the text.

    There's almost no spanking in the books. It shows up like .... 3 or so times.

    Explicitly, yes.

    It's implied all over the goddamn place, though.

    If by "implied all over the goddamn place" you mean "used by the Aes Sedai as punishment for Novices" then yes.

    I mean, seriously people, spanking as a mild form of corporal punishment is not uncommon.

    shryke on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    We don't know the limits of the TP though.

    We DO know it's insanely addictive, comes directly from the Dark One (I believe there's been implications it IS essentially the Dark One) and even the Forsaken are scared shitless of using it. It's got alot of nasty side-effects.

    And we don't know it's power compared to the One Power.

    Also, remember that the Dark One's plan doesn't involve killing Rand. Not yet anyway.
    I never noticed it the first couple times I read the series, but as the later books came it out was like, man Jordan really seems to have a spanking fetish.

    Ugh, please don't start this crap. I hear this from some people and it's a ridiculous meme with no real support in the text.

    There's almost no spanking in the books. It shows up like .... 3 or so times.

    We know it's AT LEAST equivalent to the the One Power. Otherwise Sammy just felt like letting herself die. It's done a number of things the OP can do and most important it's not detectable. That alone makes it far more powerful than the One Power. One guy could drop dozens before they even realized something was wrong. I mean, it's such a over powered device it almost has to some have other limitation we haven't seen yet. Spin a billion webs of the stuff all over and let your enemies just walk into it etc etc. Of course, inverted webs have the same problem, they're criminally underused.

    You'd have to spin them in a place where you knew your enemy will be without them feeling you setting them.

    Also, it's been established since TEOTW that wards and such can't be very powerful or discriminatory while still being unobtrusive.

    shryke on
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    We don't know the limits of the TP though.

    We DO know it's insanely addictive, comes directly from the Dark One (I believe there's been implications it IS essentially the Dark One) and even the Forsaken are scared shitless of using it. It's got alot of nasty side-effects.

    And we don't know it's power compared to the One Power.

    Also, remember that the Dark One's plan doesn't involve killing Rand. Not yet anyway.
    I never noticed it the first couple times I read the series, but as the later books came it out was like, man Jordan really seems to have a spanking fetish.

    Ugh, please don't start this crap. I hear this from some people and it's a ridiculous meme with no real support in the text.

    There's almost no spanking in the books. It shows up like .... 3 or so times.

    We know it's AT LEAST equivalent to the the One Power. Otherwise Sammy just felt like letting herself die. It's done a number of things the OP can do and most important it's not detectable. That alone makes it far more powerful than the One Power. One guy could drop dozens before they even realized something was wrong. I mean, it's such a over powered device it almost has to some have other limitation we haven't seen yet. Spin a billion webs of the stuff all over and let your enemies just walk into it etc etc. Of course, inverted webs have the same problem, they're criminally underused.

    You'd have to spin them in a place where you knew your enemy will be without them feeling you setting them.

    Also, it's been established since TEOTW that wards and such can't be very powerful or discriminatory while still being unobtrusive.

    It's just a problem with this being fantasy. There is 0 reason the anyone who can invert webs would fail to have killed anyone else by now if they really wanted to. Find out where they are and coat the place. Who cares if they're detected, it be like a nuke going off you can't sense. Rand even sets killing level inverted webs at certain places. He should be setting shadow killing webs up everywhere. But just doesn't.

    Xeddicus on
    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • SepahSepah Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    The True Power as a whole seems a bit of a Deus Ex Machina to me really. Why the Forsaken didn't all just use it/The DO allow them to use it for 5 minutes to kill Lews Therin and all the other Aes Sedai I'll never understand.

    We don't know the limits of the TP though.

    We DO know it's insanely addictive, comes directly from the Dark One (I believe there's been implications it IS essentially the Dark One) and even the Forsaken are scared shitless of using it. It's got alot of nasty side-effects.

    And we don't know it's power compared to the One Power.

    Also, remember that the Dark One's plan doesn't involve killing Rand. Not yet anyway.
    I never noticed it the first couple times I read the series, but as the later books came it out was like, man Jordan really seems to have a spanking fetish.

    Ugh, please don't start this crap. I hear this from some people and it's a ridiculous meme with no real support in the text.

    There's almost no spanking in the books. It shows up like .... 3 or so times.

    We know it's AT LEAST equivalent to the the One Power. Otherwise Sammy just felt like letting herself die. It's done a number of things the OP can do and most important it's not detectable. That alone makes it far more powerful than the One Power. One guy could drop dozens before they even realized something was wrong. I mean, it's such a over powered device it almost has to some have other limitation we haven't seen yet. Spin a billion webs of the stuff all over and let your enemies just walk into it etc etc. Of course, inverted webs have the same problem, they're criminally underused.

    You'd have to spin them in a place where you knew your enemy will be without them feeling you setting them.

    Also, it's been established since TEOTW that wards and such can't be very powerful or discriminatory while still being unobtrusive.

    It's just a problem with this being fantasy. There is 0 reason the anyone who can invert webs would fail to have killed anyone else by now if they really wanted to. Find out where they are and coat the place. Who cares if they're detected, it be like a nuke going off you can't sense. Rand even sets killing level inverted webs at certain places. He should be setting shadow killing webs up everywhere. But just doesn't.

    Gotta admit, when it took him like 5 minutes to set up a web that kills every Shadowspawn that goes through it, while giving them time to get away from the web so the bodies don't pile up, and inverted it so nobody can ever find it... well, you'd think he'd have had Ashaman spinning webs all over the Borderlands.

    Sepah on
    Minerva_SC wrote:
    I don't think I've ever raged as hard as I just did. The amount of stupidity was so intense I couldn't eben think of words venomous enough to insult my team mates. I was literally choking on my own rage. I can only hope they all live in the same city and die in a tragic bus accident today, or tommorow. I'll pray to whatever dark god I have to.

    ah yes another night of LoL.
  • MattmanMattman Registered User
    edited February 2010
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I'm rereading the series (yeah yeah I know I'm crazy) as of last night, and I noticed something at the beginning of book one - RJ's description of Ishamael "Traveling" into Lews Therin's home is... different from how we have seen traveling since its "rediscovery". The description makes it sound like Ishamael materialized, as opposed to stepping through an opening.

    What's also interesting is that we've seen other Forsaken use the "doorway" method and not the materialization method... Anyway, stupid inconsequential detail, but I wonder if it was deliberate or a mistake.

    (also I don't want this thread to die now that I'm rereading the books!)

    I'm also rereading the books and I noticed that. However, there is no conflict. Ishamael was definitely using the True Power for starters, but that doesn't matter so much. Notice in that same scene, when Ishamael "cured" Lews Therin of his madness that Lews Therin Traveled (via gateway method) to what would become Dragonmount.

    Ishamael's in a weird category. Firstly, consider that he was with Lews Therin. But Lews Therin was crazy at this point. And he was crazy because he had just sealed the Bore with TDO and all the Forsaken. So why wasn't Ishamael there? It's never been stated for fact, but it seems like Ishamael was never sealed within the prison with the rest of them. The only reason this doesn't make sense is because it wouldn't explain why Ishamael only shows up for gaps at a time (as opposed to being a constant presence since the Age of Legends). I personally think it's because he's physically dying and getting respun into the pattern, but most believe it's because he's only partially sealed at Shayol Ghul. Anyway.

    Back on point, Ishamael's doing something that's not Traveling. Whether he's just throwing his consciousness (because he is partially sealed) or using a different weave that's possible with the True Power (he is not Traveling. Traveling with the True Power has been described as "ripping a hole in the Pattern") or just a different weave in general. Not everything from the Age of Legends has been regained.

    Also, to the people wondering why the other Forsaken don't use the True Power: Well, they do. Ishamael just recklessly uses it, though. The others only do it when absolutely necessary because it not only drives people mad, but it has really negative effects on the body - as evidenced by Ishamael/Ba'alzamon having fire-filled sockets for eyes and being practically entirely molten. You can see the effect repeating in Ishamael/Morridin as the saa in his eyes are already innumerable.

    Mattman on
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Lady Eri wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    I don't care if you only paid ten cents for it, you got robbed on book ten. ROBBED.

    I've only just started Book 2. I take it Book 10 is bad?

    You know how in Book 1, a bunch of stuff happens, and it keeps a steady clip throughout the entire book once you leave the Shir...I mean, Emond's Field?

    Yeah, that's never going to happen again in terms of plot.

    2-6 have stuff happen, but a lot of tangential things get spun off it in the process, and they cover nowhere near as much actual important plot as the first book. 7-10 can typically be summed up in a single sentence in terms of how much they move the plot. It's that slow.

    Can't speak for the books afterwards. Haven't bothered to read 'em, and I'm not going to until the series is done.

    Book 11 was a return to form, but still needed more movement.

    Let me go ahead and rate the movement of each book for you:

    Book1 >>>>>
    Book2 >>>>
    Book3 >>>>
    Book4 >>>
    Book5 >>>
    Book6 >>
    Book7 >
    Book8 >
    Book9 >>
    Book10 <
    Book 11 >>>
    Book 12 >>>>>>


    I can't help but notice that book 10 actually has a backward facing arrow.

    So slow the plot actually un-developed? That's impressive. :lol:

    Regina Fong on
  • Lady EriLady Eri Registered User
    edited February 2010
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Lady Eri wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    I don't care if you only paid ten cents for it, you got robbed on book ten. ROBBED.

    I've only just started Book 2. I take it Book 10 is bad?

    You know how in Book 1, a bunch of stuff happens, and it keeps a steady clip throughout the entire book once you leave the Shir...I mean, Emond's Field?

    Yeah, that's never going to happen again in terms of plot.

    2-6 have stuff happen, but a lot of tangential things get spun off it in the process, and they cover nowhere near as much actual important plot as the first book. 7-10 can typically be summed up in a single sentence in terms of how much they move the plot. It's that slow.

    Can't speak for the books afterwards. Haven't bothered to read 'em, and I'm not going to until the series is done.

    Book 11 was a return to form, but still needed more movement.

    Let me go ahead and rate the movement of each book for you:

    Book1 >>>>>
    Book2 >>>>
    Book3 >>>>
    Book4 >>>
    Book5 >>>
    Book6 >>
    Book7 >
    Book8 >
    Book9 >>
    Book10 <
    Book 11 >>>
    Book 12 >>>>>>


    I can't help but notice that book 10 actually has a backward facing arrow.

    So slow the plot actually un-developed? That's impressive. :lol:

    Book 10, Chapter 12 - Elayne takes a bath.

    Lady Eri on
    The Wheel of Calculadon turns, and then suddenly? Orbital lasers.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Mattman wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I'm rereading the series (yeah yeah I know I'm crazy) as of last night, and I noticed something at the beginning of book one - RJ's description of Ishamael "Traveling" into Lews Therin's home is... different from how we have seen traveling since its "rediscovery". The description makes it sound like Ishamael materialized, as opposed to stepping through an opening.

    What's also interesting is that we've seen other Forsaken use the "doorway" method and not the materialization method... Anyway, stupid inconsequential detail, but I wonder if it was deliberate or a mistake.

    (also I don't want this thread to die now that I'm rereading the books!)

    I'm also rereading the books and I noticed that. However, there is no conflict. Ishamael was definitely using the True Power for starters, but that doesn't matter so much. Notice in that same scene, when Ishamael "cured" Lews Therin of his madness that Lews Therin Traveled (via gateway method) to what would become Dragonmount.

    Ishamael's in a weird category. Firstly, consider that he was with Lews Therin. But Lews Therin was crazy at this point. And he was crazy because he had just sealed the Bore with TDO and all the Forsaken. So why wasn't Ishamael there? It's never been stated for fact, but it seems like Ishamael was never sealed within the prison with the rest of them. The only reason this doesn't make sense is because it wouldn't explain why Ishamael only shows up for gaps at a time (as opposed to being a constant presence since the Age of Legends). I personally think it's because he's physically dying and getting respun into the pattern, but most believe it's because he's only partially sealed at Shayol Ghul. Anyway.

    Back on point, Ishamael's doing something that's not Traveling. Whether he's just throwing his consciousness (because he is partially sealed) or using a different weave that's possible with the True Power (he is not Traveling. Traveling with the True Power has been described as "ripping a hole in the Pattern") or just a different weave in general. Not everything from the Age of Legends has been regained.

    Also, to the people wondering why the other Forsaken don't use the True Power: Well, they do. Ishamael just recklessly uses it, though. The others only do it when absolutely necessary because it not only drives people mad, but it has really negative effects on the body - as evidenced by Ishamael/Ba'alzamon having fire-filled sockets for eyes and being practically entirely molten. You can see the effect repeating in Ishamael/Morridin as the saa in his eyes are already innumerable.

    Ishmael was semi-trapped only and reappears here and there between the Sealing and the present. No one knows for sure exactly how that whole thing worked.

    shryke on
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    shryke wrote: »
    Mattman wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I'm rereading the series (yeah yeah I know I'm crazy) as of last night, and I noticed something at the beginning of book one - RJ's description of Ishamael "Traveling" into Lews Therin's home is... different from how we have seen traveling since its "rediscovery". The description makes it sound like Ishamael materialized, as opposed to stepping through an opening.

    What's also interesting is that we've seen other Forsaken use the "doorway" method and not the materialization method... Anyway, stupid inconsequential detail, but I wonder if it was deliberate or a mistake.

    (also I don't want this thread to die now that I'm rereading the books!)

    I'm also rereading the books and I noticed that. However, there is no conflict. Ishamael was definitely using the True Power for starters, but that doesn't matter so much. Notice in that same scene, when Ishamael "cured" Lews Therin of his madness that Lews Therin Traveled (via gateway method) to what would become Dragonmount.

    Ishamael's in a weird category. Firstly, consider that he was with Lews Therin. But Lews Therin was crazy at this point. And he was crazy because he had just sealed the Bore with TDO and all the Forsaken. So why wasn't Ishamael there? It's never been stated for fact, but it seems like Ishamael was never sealed within the prison with the rest of them. The only reason this doesn't make sense is because it wouldn't explain why Ishamael only shows up for gaps at a time (as opposed to being a constant presence since the Age of Legends). I personally think it's because he's physically dying and getting respun into the pattern, but most believe it's because he's only partially sealed at Shayol Ghul. Anyway.

    Back on point, Ishamael's doing something that's not Traveling. Whether he's just throwing his consciousness (because he is partially sealed) or using a different weave that's possible with the True Power (he is not Traveling. Traveling with the True Power has been described as "ripping a hole in the Pattern") or just a different weave in general. Not everything from the Age of Legends has been regained.

    Also, to the people wondering why the other Forsaken don't use the True Power: Well, they do. Ishamael just recklessly uses it, though. The others only do it when absolutely necessary because it not only drives people mad, but it has really negative effects on the body - as evidenced by Ishamael/Ba'alzamon having fire-filled sockets for eyes and being practically entirely molten. You can see the effect repeating in Ishamael/Morridin as the saa in his eyes are already innumerable.

    Ishmael was semi-trapped only and reappears here and there between the Sealing and the present. No one knows for sure exactly how that whole thing worked.

    Though it happens every thousand years or so, he explicitly and implicitly talks about being behind Hawkwing and the Trolloc wars. And it lasts roughly forty years based on a quote from Verin a couple books back.

    Z0re on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Z0re wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Mattman wrote: »
    Spacemilk wrote: »
    I'm rereading the series (yeah yeah I know I'm crazy) as of last night, and I noticed something at the beginning of book one - RJ's description of Ishamael "Traveling" into Lews Therin's home is... different from how we have seen traveling since its "rediscovery". The description makes it sound like Ishamael materialized, as opposed to stepping through an opening.

    What's also interesting is that we've seen other Forsaken use the "doorway" method and not the materialization method... Anyway, stupid inconsequential detail, but I wonder if it was deliberate or a mistake.

    (also I don't want this thread to die now that I'm rereading the books!)

    I'm also rereading the books and I noticed that. However, there is no conflict. Ishamael was definitely using the True Power for starters, but that doesn't matter so much. Notice in that same scene, when Ishamael "cured" Lews Therin of his madness that Lews Therin Traveled (via gateway method) to what would become Dragonmount.

    Ishamael's in a weird category. Firstly, consider that he was with Lews Therin. But Lews Therin was crazy at this point. And he was crazy because he had just sealed the Bore with TDO and all the Forsaken. So why wasn't Ishamael there? It's never been stated for fact, but it seems like Ishamael was never sealed within the prison with the rest of them. The only reason this doesn't make sense is because it wouldn't explain why Ishamael only shows up for gaps at a time (as opposed to being a constant presence since the Age of Legends). I personally think it's because he's physically dying and getting respun into the pattern, but most believe it's because he's only partially sealed at Shayol Ghul. Anyway.

    Back on point, Ishamael's doing something that's not Traveling. Whether he's just throwing his consciousness (because he is partially sealed) or using a different weave that's possible with the True Power (he is not Traveling. Traveling with the True Power has been described as "ripping a hole in the Pattern") or just a different weave in general. Not everything from the Age of Legends has been regained.

    Also, to the people wondering why the other Forsaken don't use the True Power: Well, they do. Ishamael just recklessly uses it, though. The others only do it when absolutely necessary because it not only drives people mad, but it has really negative effects on the body - as evidenced by Ishamael/Ba'alzamon having fire-filled sockets for eyes and being practically entirely molten. You can see the effect repeating in Ishamael/Morridin as the saa in his eyes are already innumerable.

    Ishmael was semi-trapped only and reappears here and there between the Sealing and the present. No one knows for sure exactly how that whole thing worked.

    Though it happens every thousand years or so, he explicitly and implicitly talks about being behind Hawkwing and the Trolloc wars. And it lasts roughly forty years based on a quote from Verin a couple books back.

    He was definitely behind both of those. Maybe that's when he's the most free.

    I'm rereading the series right now (starting CoS now) but I think the hints at it are later in the series so I'll see if anything comes up.

    shryke on
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Lady Eri wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Lady Eri wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Xaquin wrote: »
    I don't care if you only paid ten cents for it, you got robbed on book ten. ROBBED.

    I've only just started Book 2. I take it Book 10 is bad?

    You know how in Book 1, a bunch of stuff happens, and it keeps a steady clip throughout the entire book once you leave the Shir...I mean, Emond's Field?

    Yeah, that's never going to happen again in terms of plot.

    2-6 have stuff happen, but a lot of tangential things get spun off it in the process, and they cover nowhere near as much actual important plot as the first book. 7-10 can typically be summed up in a single sentence in terms of how much they move the plot. It's that slow.

    Can't speak for the books afterwards. Haven't bothered to read 'em, and I'm not going to until the series is done.

    Book 11 was a return to form, but still needed more movement.

    Let me go ahead and rate the movement of each book for you:

    Book1 >>>>>
    Book2 >>>>
    Book3 >>>>
    Book4 >>>
    Book5 >>>
    Book6 >>
    Book7 >
    Book8 >
    Book9 >>
    Book10 <
    Book 11 >>>
    Book 12 >>>>>>


    I can't help but notice that book 10 actually has a backward facing arrow.

    So slow the plot actually un-developed? That's impressive. :lol:

    Book 10, Chapter 12 - Elayne takes a bath.


    Right... his writing really sounds like everything I hated about Tolkien and nothing I loved. Like an entire, long, series of books that is nothing but the fuckawful unreadable second half of The Two Towers.

    And that's why I never picked up Jordan.

    Regina Fong on
  • LorekLorek Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The True Power is super powerful because it has no gender barrier. It operates the same way for both men and women. Its mentioned a few times in the series that most powerful accomplishments of the power is when both genders blend saidin and saidar together. This should be infinitely simpler with the True Power, but of course, the DO only ever seems to let the Nae'bliss use it, so we never get to see it.

    Lorek on
    steam_sig.png
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Right... his writing really sounds like everything I hated about Tolkien and nothing I loved. Like an entire, long, series of books that is nothing but the fuckawful unreadable second half of The Two Towers.

    And that's why I never picked up Jordan.

    I'm pretty sure this is not remotely true. At least not on average. Book 10 is terrible though.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    jeepguy wrote: »
    Right... his writing really sounds like everything I hated about Tolkien and nothing I loved. Like an entire, long, series of books that is nothing but the fuckawful unreadable second half of The Two Towers.

    And that's why I never picked up Jordan.

    I'm pretty sure this is not remotely true. At least not on average. Book 10 is terrible though.

    The books are full of shit happening.

    The worst is book 10 and even that has "a bunch of decisions that will be carried out in the next book" as the action.

    shryke on
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