The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
interesting moral dilemma: stealing? to get back what is owed
Deusfaux
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Guy owes me a not insignificant amount of money for a couple months short of a year now. He's been reminded several times and always has bullshit excuses as to why he can't pay me back yet. He's supposed to be a friend, and is within a smaller circle of very good friends I have. I will expect to see him often going forward. I don't care for his character much though, and would normally have no issue cutting him out completely, but the circumstances don't really allow for that. ie, he lives with 4 of my other best friends.
Now I already made one questionable moral choice I'm not fully comfortable with, in that when I borrowed some dvd's from their place, I also took some of this fellow's. I discussed this with the head of the house (my best friend), and let her know exactly what I was taking. The guy was out of town during this time, but has since returned. As far as I know, he doesn't realise the dvd's are missing. I never lose or damage things I borrow, and I only mean to view them once and return them.
Normally, I would never take something (even just to borrow) out of someone's residence without asking beforehand, but I think the frustration with him owing me money for so long affected that decision.
However, now I'm contemplating taking it a step further.
SHOULD I - contact him to let him know I have the dvds and explain that I want to return his dvds, but that he must pay me back at the same time? OR even hold them ransom, and not return them UNTIL he's produced the cash?
I think that my character would typically return the dvds and hopefully lead "by example" in showing him I can do the right thing in regards to my friends, and that I had to opportunity to keep something of his, but I didn't, and trust he can do the right thing and pay me back.
But this is an extremely stubborn motherfucker, for frequently owes all his housemates money, and abuses their good will in several ways. ie, it's once in a blue moon someone isn't complaining about how filthy and messy he is in that house.
Whaddya guys think? I'd like help with my situation, but it also is interesting to think of similar hypotheticals. Like if someone close owed you money for a long ass time, would you at some point just take it by force, or something of equal value from them?
Now I already made one questionable moral choice I'm not fully comfortable with, in that when I borrowed some dvd's from their place, I also took some of this fellow's. I discussed this with the head of the house (my best friend), and let her know exactly what I was taking. The guy was out of town during this time, but has since returned. As far as I know, he doesn't realise the dvd's are missing. I never lose or damage things I borrow, and I only mean to view them once and return them.
Normally, I would never take something (even just to borrow) out of someone's residence without asking beforehand, but I think the frustration with him owing me money for so long affected that decision.
However, now I'm contemplating taking it a step further.
SHOULD I - contact him to let him know I have the dvds and explain that I want to return his dvds, but that he must pay me back at the same time? OR even hold them ransom, and not return them UNTIL he's produced the cash?
I think that my character would typically return the dvds and hopefully lead "by example" in showing him I can do the right thing in regards to my friends, and that I had to opportunity to keep something of his, but I didn't, and trust he can do the right thing and pay me back.
But this is an extremely stubborn motherfucker, for frequently owes all his housemates money, and abuses their good will in several ways. ie, it's once in a blue moon someone isn't complaining about how filthy and messy he is in that house.
Whaddya guys think? I'd like help with my situation, but it also is interesting to think of similar hypotheticals. Like if someone close owed you money for a long ass time, would you at some point just take it by force, or something of equal value from them?
Deusfaux on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
honestly, if it's an amount you can let go (i.e. you don't need it for rent in a week), i think your best bet is to say fuck it, give the dvds back once you watched them and then never give him anything again.
edit- money, in significant amounts, is something i never loan to people. it's just not worth the hassle. sometimes people are great about paying you back as soon as they can and sometimes they...aren't. i'll buy folks dinner or drinks and that kind of thing if we're going out, sure, but like szech said, that's a gift not a loan.
He does live with your best friend. And your best friend, because he lives with the guy, may be of some help to you. Not necessarily in a direct way, but he may have better advice than I do about dealing with this troublesome person... something that he must do on a daily basis, and particularly if the guy often owes him money.
he's a giant douche, eh?
also: I think the threat of kicking him out or other trouble for him are available methods to the people he lives with that they can use as leverage for getting him to stop being a douche, that I don't really have.
also also: coming out on top - if he's the only one who gets to account for that or not, do I even care what he thinks? Possibly, I'd rather have my money than to have him think highly of me?
I like this one haha. when and if I have more disposable cash for it, absolutely.
I think small claims is a little excessive considering our relationship, but I'm aware of and open to the option
Now, if I didn't care about this person or the fallout that would result from pursuing my property, and really wanted the money back I would take them to court. Stealing their stuff and holding it for ransom is a bad idea because it puts you in a compromised position where your friend can also point the finger of wrong-doing.
My guess is that if he is truly that frustrating to live with, and owes everyone, he won't be living with your close circle of friends for too long - and then you can go after him if he still hasn't paid up.
Exactly how much money are we talking about here? As a general rule, lending money or creating situations where friends owe other friends significant sums of cash has a high potential for problems. It also seems like in this situation, the problems could potentially cause a great deal of drama between you and your close circle of friends, especially given the living arrangements. If you are ready to open this sort of mess up, well, thats your prerogative. Holding some of his property "hostage" to demand he repay you his money might get him to cave and resentfully repay you. Or it might make him just want to cut all ties with you and never pay you back. If the value of the whole deal isn't greater than a handful of DVD's, I wouldn't try to make a huge issue out of it. Maybe you are out a few bucks, but you have learned some important things about money and about people. Trying to "retake what is yours by force" seems like it could have a huge potential for drama and lost friendships.
Or maybe this dude is just a huge jerk and everyone will just ostracize him as a result of what will probably become a fight between you two over this property dispute. But in this case, be careful that he does not also have a viewpoint that he can take what he thinks should be his by force. Or he might just get pissed and want plain ol' revenge.
Now if he stops paying or just doesn't pay, you have some form of documentation with his signature that money is owed. If you can get it notarized, that would be even better.
And at some point, living with a slob sucks for everyone involved and they are told to shape up or ship out. You'll be able to go after him for the funds at some point for sure. Your friends will tire of him.
Your complaint about the trip (I would just forget about the medicine unless it was pricey) is ideal. You have your credit card statement to back you up, you have a clear and easy to explain single issue. Don't muddy the waters or give him a leg to stand on for a few DVDs.
It should not be difficult or expensive to get a judgement against him.
But more importantly it should not be difficult to explain to him how easy it would be to take him to small claims. And the clear and present threat of that should be enough to get him to pay.
Unless they offered it as collateral what the OP is doing is literally stealing and by trying to hold it hostage he would actually be breaking the law.
Corrollary: if someone else is being a dick, that does not give you the right to be a dick. Try to minimize the number of dicks in any given situation.
Corrollary 2: don't borrow someone's shit without asking first.
Corrollary 3: if you borrow someone's shit without asking, returning it in a timely manner does not show some kind of moral fiber. It doesn't even really undo the dick move of borrowing it without asking in the first place.
Also your continuous "analysis" of both of your "characters" makes you sound like a pretentious d-bag. That's just bonus H/A for future reference.
If it's a significant chunk of change, I'd go to small claims court, but then again, I'm more ruthless than most. I loaned my brother the lawyer's fees to let him declare bankruptcy, and when he started being flaky about paying me back the money I loaned him, the only thing that got my my money back was the fact that the entire rest of my family harped the hell out of him to give me my money back. If this guy isn't in good with you like a good friend or family, go to court.
As for what you can do abaout it... Well people above have already made suggestions. None are going to be pleasant I'm afraid. Have you explained that you need the money back?
You are really going to want "clean hands" when it comes to taking this guy to small claims court, so definately return his property.
Also, the nice thing about Small Claims court is that you dont need a lawyer or anything, so all it will cost you is time. But that can be a bad thing as well depending on how active/busy your life is.
In the meantime, I would advise all of your other friends that you no longer want to deal with this deadbeat until he pays you back, as you are tired of hounding him for the money. Every time you get together with your friends, have it be at a neutral location or at your house, and make sure the deadbeat is excluded. Chances are, the people he is living with are his only friends, and even then only because they have to live with him. If all of their social interactions start excluding him, he will have a greater impetus to repay the debt.
MWO: Adamski
My friend taught me a useful trick for reclaiming small funds from people with little or no confrontation or moral discrepancy. When someone owes you, you tend to avoid them until you get repaid, but you should spend more time with them instead. Look for a convenient opportunity to borrow some money from them, say you all go out to lunch at nice place. When it comes time to pay, act like you left your wallet in the car or something, and make it seem as though he could do you a huge favor if he covered it for you. On your way back to the car, simply "remember" that he owed you that money anyways, and tell him that he's square now. In both instances you're making him feel good about it, i.e he's the hero for paying when you forgot your wallet, and then he's a little relieved to be debt free again as opposed to the feeling of dread he would normally have when you nag him for money.
Hey look, DrFrylock is right, yet again.
Stealing someone's shit is stealing and therefore wrong regardless of what they owe you. Give him his shit back.
CUZ THERE'S SOMETHING IN THE MIDDLE AND IT'S GIVING ME A RASH