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What is a "kusemono"?

CheezyCheezy Registered User regular
edited February 2010 in Help / Advice Forum
I'm reading Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai and there is a word that is not translated and I can't find any information on through google except as a reference back to Hagakure. It says "A kusemono is a man to rely upon." Can anyone translate that or have any idea what it is?

Cheezy on

Posts

  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    do you have the kanji?

    Usually mono means thing, and kuse is used (where i lived) to mean something that stinks, but that was slang.

    Def according to Eudict.com

    According to that I'm somewhat close considering if you called a person a "stinkything" they would not be someone good.

    MoSiAc on
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  • oracleoracle Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    I don't suppose your book has the Chinese characters it's written in? That would really help. My dictionary says: (n) ruffian, villain, knave, thief, suspicious fellow but it might have different meanings if there are other ways of writing it.

    oracle on
  • CheezyCheezy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    No, it just has kusemono in italics without any footnotes or anything. Is it supposed to be untouchables or something?

    Cheezy on
  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Nah looks like it just means a bad guy.

    MoSiAc on
    Monster Hunter Tri US: MoSiAc - U46FJF - Katrice | RipTen - Gaming News | Los Comics
  • oracleoracle Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Yeah, looks like it means something along the lines of 'unsavory character'. Ahhhhh....I miss being a Japanese to English translator. It's like trying to solve a puzzle you don't have all the pieces to. LOL

    oracle on
  • CheezyCheezy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    So a rival? Or just a villain? Sketchy person?

    Cheezy on
  • CheezyCheezy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Also any ideas on what "Skin of a dog on the inside, hide of the tiger on the outside" means?

    Cheezy on
  • MoSiAcMoSiAc Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Sounds like it means the person is tough on the outside, or makes a big show, but on the inside they are insecure or bad things of that nature.

    I've never heard anyone called that in Japan though. Probably an old euphemism.

    MoSiAc on
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  • CheezyCheezy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Immediately preceding the outside/inside thing is "A samurai will use a toothpick even when he has not eaten." So I'm not sure. Maybe be solitary on the outside, crave solidarity on the inside?

    Cheezy on
  • oracleoracle Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    It's hard to say Cheezy (about the meaning of kusemono) because in Japanese quite often the meaning of the word is interpreted from the context in which it is being used. Do you have an example sentence?

    I don't think 'rival' would be a correct translation in this case, I think it is more like 'villain' or 'sketchy person'.

    oracle on
  • CheezyCheezy Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    The only sentence that uses it is the one given, so I am unable to do so. The context is a list of aphorisms given by this guy's father, if that's any help.

    Cheezy on
  • admanbadmanb unionize your workplace Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Cheezy wrote: »
    Immediately preceding the outside/inside thing is "A samurai will use a toothpick even when he has not eaten." So I'm not sure. Maybe be solitary on the outside, crave solidarity on the inside?

    That was a saying from the period where the samurai still had their status, but no longer had financial backing from the government. It means they'll put up a front of being well-off even when they're starving.

    admanb on
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  • TavataarTavataar Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    oracle wrote: »
    I don't think 'rival' would be a correct translation in this case, I think it is more like 'villain' or 'sketchy person'.

    So according to the OP context:

    "A <sketchy person / villian> is a man to rely on"?

    That seems a bit bizarre.

    Tavataar on
    -Tavataar
  • DelzhandDelzhand Registered User, Transition Team regular
    edited February 2010
    No more so than "honor among thieves", really.

    Delzhand on
  • RaekreuRaekreu Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    It might mean something like once a crook, always a crook. As in, you can rely on a ruffian because you already know how he's going to act.

    Raekreu on
  • baudattitudebaudattitude Registered User regular
    edited February 2010
    MoSiAc wrote: »
    do you have the kanji?

    Usually mono means thing, and kuse is used (where i lived) to mean something that stinks, but that was slang.

    Def according to Eudict.com

    According to that I'm somewhat close considering if you called a person a "stinkything" they would not be someone good.

    Japanese has too damn many homonyms. :)

    Mono "物" means "thing"
    Mono "者" means "person"

    OP: Google kicks back a ton of hits for 癖者, so that might be the original characters. I'd translate it as "scoundrel", myself, but trying to translate romanized Japanese is a nightmare, especially in books where you never know if they've decided to drop long vowels.

    baudattitude on
  • DelzhandDelzhand Registered User, Transition Team regular
    edited February 2010
    Raekreu wrote: »
    It might mean something like once a crook, always a crook. As in, you can rely on a ruffian because you already know how he's going to act.

    I like this definition. You can reasonably predict the behavior of a murderous thief. He's not going to shock his neighbors by suddenly murdering and robbing someone.

    Delzhand on
  • RentRent I'm always right Fuckin' deal with itRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    Cheezy wrote: »
    Also any ideas on what "Skin of a dog on the inside, hide of the tiger on the outside" means?

    All bark no bite

    Cheezy wrote: »
    Immediately preceding the outside/inside thing is "A samurai will use a toothpick even when he has not eaten." So I'm not sure. Maybe be solitary on the outside, crave solidarity on the inside?

    If I were to guess, sort of a synonymic idiom to "adding insult to injury"

    Rent on
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion Pronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered User regular
    edited February 2010
    admanb wrote: »
    Cheezy wrote: »
    Immediately preceding the outside/inside thing is "A samurai will use a toothpick even when he has not eaten." So I'm not sure. Maybe be solitary on the outside, crave solidarity on the inside?

    That was a saying from the period where the samurai still had their status, but no longer had financial backing from the government. It means they'll put up a front of being well-off even when they're starving.

    This is your answer. I'm sad he beat me too it! :0

    Enc on
  • Bokken_SamuraiBokken_Samurai Registered User new member
    edited November 2016
    @Cheezy... Having read Hagakure: The secret wisdom of the Samurai Translated by Alexander Bennett, I can tell you that during the time the Hagakure was written, 1600's a Kusemono Was considered to be a Samurai who followed the way without question. Someone of unquestionable reliability... Hagakure Book 1 Scroll 60 (... a Heroic warrior, or Kusemono, is one who can be relied upon.)

    Having the skin of a dog inside, and a tigers skin outside refers to the fact that even if a Samurai is fallen on hard times, or is starvingly hungry, he does not sacrifice his dignity.. He still present himself as being strong, as clean as possible, and in control of himself. Basically, show no weakness, less others take advantage of it.

    I urge you to check out Alexander Bennets translation, the man is a celebrated scholar and Martial artist in Japan, and has done an excellent job with this translation, as well as adding footnotes explaining the context of various terms.

    Old thread, i know... but this deserves some clarification.

    Bokken_Samurai on
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