This talk of CC reminded me: I don't think I've seen a rogue sap in PVE content (counting raids and heroics) at all throughout WoTLK content. I've only ever seen saps in PVP.
This talk of CC reminded me: I don't think I've seen a rogue sap in PVE content (counting raids and heroics) at all throughout WoTLK content. I've only ever seen saps in PVP.
I blew someone's mind by sapping something yesterday.
How about instead of having to do 5 instances a week to get those same badges (a weekly or something instead of a daily) and giving me 10 badges or whatever, how about you give me a token that I can exchange in for gear. 1 token = 1 piece of gear. So I don't need to grind out 4 weeks worth of dailies to get a piece of gear and then realize that I need 2 more badges for the next upgrade.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
This talk of CC reminded me: I don't think I've seen a rogue sap in PVE content (counting raids and heroics) at all throughout WoTLK content. I've only ever seen saps in PVP.
Failed sap attempts in PvE content makes me sad inside. I used to tell people in PuGs (or partial PuGs) to go sap something and they say they can't get to it because it's facing them. They didn't understand what distract was all about. And they'd say "ok" after being told about distract, and just kinda run in without using it and get found.
Or how about making 5-mans drop loot worth running them for?
I know, too radical, right?
Well they'd have to keep upgrading item sets for the dungeons.
Not a bad idea but it makes them have to do more work I guess.
Could do normal -> heroic -> boss hard modes.
And when the release new raids, they could do 2-3 accompanying 5-man raids (like ICC) that drop gear nearly equivalent to previous raid content, but make them hard. At some point, you do have to teach these people who are "5-man only" to "man" up to the content and earn some higher ilevel gear.
If raids are developed to keep 10-25 people occupied for weeks or months at a time, then why not build 5-man dungeons with the same philosophy?
Yeah, let's make heroics harder so your daily badge chore takes even longer.
Harder != longer.
Instead of having 2 packs of easy mobs you need to AoE, have 1 pack where you have to CC. It may take longer if you have a terrible group but I've found people are usually willing to listen to simple instructions (only attack 1 mob, cc this other mob) if you ask nicely.
Yeah, let's make heroics harder so your daily badge chore takes even longer.
Harder != longer.
Instead of having 2 packs of easy mobs you need to AoE, have 1 pack where you have to CC. It may take longer if you have a terrible group but I've found people are usually willing to listen to simple instructions (only attack 1 mob, cc this other mob) if you ask nicely.
Another great idea.
I'd rather do an instance with 5 pulls in between bosses that are challenging, than 15 lolztrash pulls.
I don't see any reason why Blizzard can't do something to make the trash interesting, instead of having a dungeon filled with the same 10 packs of the same 3 mobs.
I don't understand why you wouldn't use your shield on the tank every time it falls off or weakened soul drops, you get mana back when it breaks and it gives you the casting haste buff (Borrowed Time) which you can cheat to get penance off faster without consuming the buff. Are you using PoM on the tank every time its off cooldown as well?
I do, I just dont put it on SOME tanks before they pull.
To many get over confident and think they are uber tanks, not realizing they are shielded.
In a good group my shields DON'T BREAK.
Bad PUGs and Raids, mana isn't an issue.
Cleared 7 bosses in our 2 our ICC10 session the other night, never once needed mana, and only used shadow fiend once, and it was for the DPS.
A random dungeon with 4 other guild mates I need to watch the mana or go holy. They know how to avoid damage and a shield only popping once or twice on a tank in a boss fight isn't enough mana back.
Granted the fact that I refuse to stand there doing nothing is probably part of it.
I still don't understand your problem. Shield breaks are part of the mechanic, bosses/trash will break them on a tank unless their avoidance is crazy, and even then, that's what Penance/PoM/Renew/FH is for.
Let me be more direct: describe what you do as Disc that causes you to go OOM so much more then what you do as Holy. How do you go about healing a tank in a boss fight, or healing tanks on trash. Or is your problem healing DPS that pull threat?
The drake is fine, up until gear inflation gets to the point where everyone's getting to it every time and the only people without it are new level 70s. But I was thinking ZA-style as in ToGC-style. If you finish in a certain amount of time, extra loot. If you finish even faster, more extra loot. If you finish insanely fast, really good extra loot. That sorta thing.
The drake is fine, up until gear inflation gets to the point where everyone's getting to it every time and the only people without it are new level 70s. But I was thinking ZA-style as in ToGC-style. If you finish in a certain amount of time, extra loot. If you finish even faster, more extra loot. If you finish insanely fast, really good extra loot. That sorta thing.
I like this for two reasons.
Crazy awesome loot going to people who do well. Vanity items for the best/highest would be my idea.
Also, faster runs means more chaos means more time for things like blind, stunlocking, tricks of the trade, etc to shine, and the players who know how to use them to shine.
The drake is fine, up until gear inflation gets to the point where everyone's getting to it every time and the only people without it are new level 70s. But I was thinking ZA-style as in ToGC-style. If you finish in a certain amount of time, extra loot. If you finish even faster, more extra loot. If you finish insanely fast, really good extra loot. That sorta thing.
I was just agreeing about the timer idea. The drake was just an example.
Maybe, every new tier they add new rewards for finishing it in time, either shorting the timer or increasing the difficulty slightly?
Repentence, hammer of justice, frost nova done right, blast wave, typhoon, hex, and so forth.
Oats on
0
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
I've got an idea - multiple paths in instances. Objects and traps in instances requiring one class or another to disarm or activate, etc. DDO has a bunch of situations where a rogue is valuable as shit (and if not present, things could be difficult).
Expand that value to each class, beyond the combat reasons.
I've got an idea - multiple paths in instances. Objects and traps in instances requiring one class or another to disarm or activate, etc. DDO has a bunch of situations where a rogue is valuable as shit (and if not present, things could be difficult).
Expand that value to each class, beyond the combat reasons.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I've got an idea - multiple paths in instances. Objects and traps in instances requiring one class or another to disarm or activate, etc. DDO has a bunch of situations where a rogue is valuable as shit (and if not present, things could be difficult).
Expand that value to each class, beyond the combat reasons.
Shattered Halls, for instance?
Or ICC with its traps and whatnot.
I know its not many examples, but still. Thing is, non-rogues would (rightfully) be upset.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited March 2010
That's why I said expand that value to each class. Like I dunno, priests can purify things that need purifying. Warlocks can bypass some bitched-up encounter by banishing a motherfuck.
I haven't done ICC (since I've quit WoW) so I dunno what they have there. Shattered Halls though, uh, I don't think there was anything like I was describing there.
Let me be more direct: describe what you do as Disc that causes you to go OOM so much more then what you do as Holy. How do you go about healing a tank in a boss fight, or healing tanks on trash. Or is your problem healing DPS that pull threat?
I am not out of mana because I need to heal like crazy, I am out of mana because my shields are too strong!
The only way to not have mana issues is to stand there doing nothing like a holy priest trying to abuse the 5 second rule.
In a GOOD group running heroics (aka over geared), the mobs rarely do enough damage to break the shields. Last I looked I was about 9k absorbed per shield and got a few upgrades since then. Not counting my trinkets abilities.
With some of the tanks I run with, there are certain boss fights where 1 shield lasts the whole fight.
Rapture doesn't proc enough for me in many heroics to give me enough mana back, and if we don't have replenishment in the raid I have mana issues. I am forced to sit and drink (which I dont need to do in ICC or other raids)
If all I did was heal, which would mean just shield the whole group then stand there like an idiot, it wouldn't be an issue.
But running heroics and doing nothing but hitting PW:S and occasionally a Penance on the tank, is mind numbing.
Switching to Holy means that its more engaging and I don't have the same mana issue.
Hell I have healed a number of heroics in Shadow.
I know a number of Disc priests that find it better to intentionally down rank PW:S or swap out a high spell power piece with something with haste/crit/int for Heroics.
Have seen several reports of high end raiding disc priests using down ranked PW:S in prep for certain abilities because the dmg isn't enough to pop the shields and they would rather get all the shields at once because of the cool down on Rapture.
Let me be more direct: describe what you do as Disc that causes you to go OOM so much more then what you do as Holy. How do you go about healing a tank in a boss fight, or healing tanks on trash. Or is your problem healing DPS that pull threat?
I am not out of mana because I need to heal like crazy, I am out of mana because my shields are too strong!
The only way to not have mana issues is to stand there doing nothing like a holy priest trying to abuse the 5 second rule.
In a GOOD group running heroics (aka over geared), the mobs rarely do enough damage to break the shields. Last I looked I was about 9k absorbed per shield and got a few upgrades since then. Not counting my trinkets abilities.
With some of the tanks I run with, there are certain boss fights where 1 shield lasts the whole fight.
Rapture doesn't proc enough for me in many heroics to give me enough mana back, and if we don't have replenishment in the raid I have mana issues. I am forced to sit and drink (which I dont need to do in ICC or other raids)
If all I did was heal, which would mean just shield the whole group then stand there like an idiot, it wouldn't be an issue.
But running heroics and doing nothing but hitting PW:S and occasionally a Penance on the tank, is mind numbing.
Switching to Holy means that its more engaging and I don't have the same mana issue.
Hell I have healed a number of heroics in Shadow.
I know a number of Disc priests that find it better to intentionally down rank PW:S or swap out a high spell power piece with something with haste/crit/int for Heroics.
Have seen several reports of high end raiding disc priests using down ranked PW:S in prep for certain abilities because the dmg isn't enough to pop the shields and they would rather get all the shields at once because of the cool down on Rapture.
I can't make heads or tails of some of the contradiction in this, but I understand the being bored because you're doing nothing. That's cool and totally understandable you want something more active, but if your shields aren't breaking as Disc then no one should be taking damage so why would you go OOM in that case?
While we're on the subject of stuff to make heroics more fun/challenging, how about doing a Dire Maul North Tribute style thing again? Maybe not having to go through the hassle of getting crafting stuff to bypass bosses, but instead you have to fight them and incapacitate them in some way (by way of items found in the instance or fight mechanics).
There was a door which could be lockpicked/engineered/blacksmithed, bypassing a pain in the ass.
Or, a director type system similar to what L4D2 has. Changes the layout of the dungeon based on how well you're doing and gives you harder mobs?
I don't think that would go over well with WoW players. How about difficulty settings that you choose that do the same thing at the start?
I still like this option. Have all Heroics with someone standing at the entrance that you can talk to to activate hard mode.
Your group wants your 5-8 badges quick and not bother? Fine ignore the dude, you want to upgrade 2 of those badges to frost or have some better loot? then talk to the dude and make it harder.
How they make it harder? Lots of options
- Escort Hard mode dude through the dungeon
- Add a timer
- Talking to him adds traps or harder trash (harder not more)
- etc etc.
Gnutson on
Erai - Operative <--Imperial Double Agent--> Sniper - Eari
SW:Tor - Tao - Kryatt Dragon Server
Posts
I blew someone's mind by sapping something yesterday.
I know, too radical, right?
Failed sap attempts in PvE content makes me sad inside. I used to tell people in PuGs (or partial PuGs) to go sap something and they say they can't get to it because it's facing them. They didn't understand what distract was all about. And they'd say "ok" after being told about distract, and just kinda run in without using it and get found.
Well they'd have to keep upgrading item sets for the dungeons.
Not a bad idea but it makes them have to do more work I guess.
Could do normal -> heroic -> boss hard modes.
And when the release new raids, they could do 2-3 accompanying 5-man raids (like ICC) that drop gear nearly equivalent to previous raid content, but make them hard. At some point, you do have to teach these people who are "5-man only" to "man" up to the content and earn some higher ilevel gear.
If raids are developed to keep 10-25 people occupied for weeks or months at a time, then why not build 5-man dungeons with the same philosophy?
Harder != longer.
Instead of having 2 packs of easy mobs you need to AoE, have 1 pack where you have to CC. It may take longer if you have a terrible group but I've found people are usually willing to listen to simple instructions (only attack 1 mob, cc this other mob) if you ask nicely.
Another great idea.
I'd rather do an instance with 5 pulls in between bosses that are challenging, than 15 lolztrash pulls.
I don't see any reason why Blizzard can't do something to make the trash interesting, instead of having a dungeon filled with the same 10 packs of the same 3 mobs.
And then what? Got back to Dalaran and listen to trade chat?
I do, I just dont put it on SOME tanks before they pull.
To many get over confident and think they are uber tanks, not realizing they are shielded.
In a good group my shields DON'T BREAK.
Bad PUGs and Raids, mana isn't an issue.
Cleared 7 bosses in our 2 our ICC10 session the other night, never once needed mana, and only used shadow fiend once, and it was for the DPS.
A random dungeon with 4 other guild mates I need to watch the mana or go holy. They know how to avoid damage and a shield only popping once or twice on a tank in a boss fight isn't enough mana back.
Granted the fact that I refuse to stand there doing nothing is probably part of it.
fix't
Fewer but more challenging trash packs, perhaps. SL-style patrols. Maybe even ZA-style timed loot.
I could get behind that, I liked when CoS first came out trying to beat the timer for the drake. It was a nice addition.
I like this for two reasons.
Crazy awesome loot going to people who do well. Vanity items for the best/highest would be my idea.
Also, faster runs means more chaos means more time for things like blind, stunlocking, tricks of the trade, etc to shine, and the players who know how to use them to shine.
I was just agreeing about the timer idea. The drake was just an example.
Maybe, every new tier they add new rewards for finishing it in time, either shorting the timer or increasing the difficulty slightly?
No, I'm just using my main as an example.
Repentence, hammer of justice, frost nova done right, blast wave, typhoon, hex, and so forth.
Expand that value to each class, beyond the combat reasons.
Shattered Halls, for instance?
Or ICC with its traps and whatnot.
I know its not many examples, but still. Thing is, non-rogues would (rightfully) be upset.
We're fucked for the drinking gauntlet.
I haven't done ICC (since I've quit WoW) so I dunno what they have there. Shattered Halls though, uh, I don't think there was anything like I was describing there.
I am not out of mana because I need to heal like crazy, I am out of mana because my shields are too strong!
The only way to not have mana issues is to stand there doing nothing like a holy priest trying to abuse the 5 second rule.
In a GOOD group running heroics (aka over geared), the mobs rarely do enough damage to break the shields. Last I looked I was about 9k absorbed per shield and got a few upgrades since then. Not counting my trinkets abilities.
With some of the tanks I run with, there are certain boss fights where 1 shield lasts the whole fight.
Rapture doesn't proc enough for me in many heroics to give me enough mana back, and if we don't have replenishment in the raid I have mana issues. I am forced to sit and drink (which I dont need to do in ICC or other raids)
If all I did was heal, which would mean just shield the whole group then stand there like an idiot, it wouldn't be an issue.
But running heroics and doing nothing but hitting PW:S and occasionally a Penance on the tank, is mind numbing.
Switching to Holy means that its more engaging and I don't have the same mana issue.
Hell I have healed a number of heroics in Shadow.
I know a number of Disc priests that find it better to intentionally down rank PW:S or swap out a high spell power piece with something with haste/crit/int for Heroics.
Have seen several reports of high end raiding disc priests using down ranked PW:S in prep for certain abilities because the dmg isn't enough to pop the shields and they would rather get all the shields at once because of the cool down on Rapture.
Perhaps having tougher than normal mobs blocking shortcuts? Could be an easy way to put in scaled gear with a time limit.
If the shield lasts the entire fight, the tank isn't taking any damage. How are you running out of mana?
Or, a director type system similar to what L4D2 has. Changes the layout of the dungeon based on how well you're doing and gives you harder mobs?
I can't make heads or tails of some of the contradiction in this, but I understand the being bored because you're doing nothing. That's cool and totally understandable you want something more active, but if your shields aren't breaking as Disc then no one should be taking damage so why would you go OOM in that case?
I don't think that would go over well with WoW players. How about difficulty settings that you choose that do the same thing at the start?
I still like this option. Have all Heroics with someone standing at the entrance that you can talk to to activate hard mode.
Your group wants your 5-8 badges quick and not bother? Fine ignore the dude, you want to upgrade 2 of those badges to frost or have some better loot? then talk to the dude and make it harder.
How they make it harder? Lots of options
- Escort Hard mode dude through the dungeon
- Add a timer
- Talking to him adds traps or harder trash (harder not more)
- etc etc.
SW:Tor - Tao - Kryatt Dragon Server