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New comic for Tuesday April 20, 2010

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Posts

  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2010
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand why it even matters if video games are considered to be "art." Or why it matters so much if a film critic doesn't think they do.

    as I mentioned earlier it's telling a group of creative people that the medium they choose to work in will never have more meaning than a distraction for those damn teenagers

    it doesn't matter much to us average joes but I could see someone who takes their work on video games seriously being offended by that

    it's not so much him telling the people who do the work that they're invalid. artists know they're artists.
    it's him telling the rest of the world, and probably convincing a good many of them that they can safely ignore an entire medium just because a "respected critic" told them it was worthless

    That's really more of a problem with letting someone tell you what you should think is art instead of deciding for yourself. Though honestly I suspect that even this isn't true for most people. I'm pretty confident that the vast majority of people that would agree with Ebert had already decided that games are not art. So he's not convincing them so much as affirming their experience.

    If we're not allowed to call somebody a butt for using their considerable influence to convince dumb people of wrong things, why do we even have an internet?

    Well, that's what I'm asking. Why are people so riled up over something so trivial? And I'm still not convinced he's influencing dumb people. People generally are already decided on an issue like this, and whether they agree with Ebert or not is really independent of how cogent his argument is but simply whether it dovetails with their preconceptions.

    Druhim on
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  • World as MythWorld as Myth a breezy way to annoy serious people Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Druhim wrote: »
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand why it even matters if video games are considered to be "art." Or why it matters so much if a film critic doesn't think they do.

    as I mentioned earlier it's telling a group of creative people that the medium they choose to work in will never have more meaning than a distraction for those damn teenagers

    it doesn't matter much to us average joes but I could see someone who takes their work on video games seriously being offended by that

    it's not so much him telling the people who do the work that they're invalid. artists know they're artists.
    it's him telling the rest of the world, and probably convincing a good many of them that they can safely ignore an entire medium just because a "respected critic" told them it was worthless

    That's really more of a problem with letting someone tell you what you should think is art instead of deciding for yourself. Though honestly I suspect that even this isn't true for most people. I'm pretty confident that the vast majority of people that would agree with Ebert had already decided that games are not art. So he's not convincing them so much as affirming their experience.

    If we're not allowed to call somebody a butt for using their considerable influence to convince dumb people of wrong things, why do we even have an internet?

    Well, that's what I'm asking. Why are people so riled up over something so trivial? And I'm still not convinced he's influencing dumb people. People generally are already decided on an issue like this, and whether they agree with Ebert or not is really independent of how cogent his argument is but simply whether it dovetails with their preconceptions.

    well, when someone says something you like can never possess a quality that you feel it strongly embodies, you don't speak up to disagree? we're arguing about it because we care about it, otherwise what's the point of anybody saying anything

    World as Myth on
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  • Lord DaveLord Dave Grief Causer Bitch Free ZoneRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Druhim wrote: »
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand why it even matters if video games are considered to be "art." Or why it matters so much if a film critic doesn't think they do.

    as I mentioned earlier it's telling a group of creative people that the medium they choose to work in will never have more meaning than a distraction for those damn teenagers

    it doesn't matter much to us average joes but I could see someone who takes their work on video games seriously being offended by that

    it's not so much him telling the people who do the work that they're invalid. artists know they're artists.
    it's him telling the rest of the world, and probably convincing a good many of them that they can safely ignore an entire medium just because a "respected critic" told them it was worthless

    That's really more of a problem with letting someone tell you what you should think is art instead of deciding for yourself. Though honestly I suspect that even this isn't true for most people. I'm pretty confident that the vast majority of people that would agree with Ebert had already decided that games are not art. So he's not convincing them so much as affirming their experience.

    If we're not allowed to call somebody a butt for using their considerable influence to convince dumb people of wrong things, why do we even have an internet?

    Well, that's what I'm asking. Why are people so riled up over something so trivial? And I'm still not convinced he's influencing dumb people. People generally are already decided on an issue like this, and whether they agree with Ebert or not is really independent of how cogent his argument is but simply whether it dovetails with their preconceptions.

    I don't think "people probably already made up their minds anyway" is a reason to let somebody off the hook for disseminating an awful opinion.
    People are riled up because an influential figure is trying to dismiss an entire medium as bankrupt of potential meaning. Doesn't seem all that trivial to me.

    Lord Dave on
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  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2010
    Quoth wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Quoth wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »

    The music composed is art. The skyboxes and other background details (matte paintings, essentially) are art. The character models and the animation are art (I don't think Ebert would decry computer animation as "not art", seeing how he loves Pixar). The voice acting (if applicable) is art (though not always good art).

    But the sum of all these parts is not art, apparently.

    The counter to that would be that the art gallery itself is not art, but it does showcase various pieces of art that you can appreciate independently.

    Individually they are art, but the sum of the parts is not.

    Note I do not actually believe this, I am merely playing devil's advocate.

    i think that the analogy falls apart, though

    it is more like saying that the violinist is playing music, and so are the cellist and the pianist, but when they play together the result is not music

    even if it is a cohesive whole, as opposed to each playing a totally different song, obviously
    I would say a better analogy is you have a 4 piece band playing over here and then there's a dude dancing a little jig and some other dude is drawing on a wall to the music perhaps or maybe he's just drawing for his own reasons. Now all of that together certainly could be experienced as art by someone, but I think you can see how it wouldn't necessarily be so.

    but those things are not a unified whole like video games are

    maybe musical theater would be a better comparison?

    you've got actors and musicians and set designers all working in concert to produce something that, when combined, is art

    in the same way that film is art, really... very similar to the mechanics of making a game except that one is interactive and the other isn't

    that really is almost the only difference, though certainly there are varying degrees involved

    I was intentionally vague about whether all those performers were working in concert because again, it comes back to the viewer's experience. If the viewer experiences something moving about the whole thing and considers what they just experienced to be art, whether the different performers intended to be presenting a unified piece or not is irrelevant. Obviously in a situation where those performers are all on a stage performing a play or an opera, the audience is much more likely to experience it as art. But that's just a matter of degrees, not absolutes. The defining characteristic is still how the audience experiences it.

    Druhim on
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  • Lord DaveLord Dave Grief Causer Bitch Free ZoneRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Also, if he convinces even one person not to buy Madden because it's a soul-deadening cultural void, that's one less stud on Monty's diamond collar.
    So fuck that guy.

    Lord Dave on
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  • Kuribo's ShoeKuribo's Shoe Kuribo's Stocking North PoleRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    don't worry, I'll always be here to buy madden

    Kuribo's Shoe on
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  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2010
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    i think that all this argumentation is really just a bunch of hot air. you think games are art? go make some artistic games. actions speak louder than twitters.

    and then an old man will tell his many followers that what you did is not art without looking at it
    and then his followers will follow

    well, yeah

    but you're not going to change anyone's mind by arguing with people on the internet

    Orikaeshigitae on
  • LearnedHandLearnedHand Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2010
    No need to write a long thing here because DiasExMachina and probably others have already covered it. I only read this last page. Might get banned again for this but nothing below is remotely offensive or ban worthy by any rational reader.

    But yeah, cancer jokes really illustrate the level of development of a segment of the readership here.

    On the other hand, Roger Ebert is an intelligent guy who gave a considered opinion on video games. I read his blog regularly and have watched his show and read his reviews for decades.

    I won't mention the the intellectual dynamic present at your finer video game comic sites.

    Some non sequitur types may say that such comments mean that I'm not a "fan" of Penny Arcade. Well, maybe I'm not but such comments certainly aren't the reason. In any event, I'm certainly disappointed with Mike and Jerry's bizarre rants against not just Ebert's thesis but also ad hominum crap.

    But as for "fandom", I don't know. I have read the Penny Arcade comics regularly for years. Do I find them funny? Well, sometimes. More often, I don't get it. A lot I don't find funny. Occassionally, something hillarious will be produced. Whatever the ratio of good to "meh" comics, I still read regularly.

    Of course, I'm also an avid reader of the Pluggers and that sucks every day. Does merely reading a comic on a regular basis make one a "fan"? If it does, I'm a fan of both the Pluggers and Penny Arcade. If not, it's a more complicated issue.

    On the other hand, I can confidently say that I am a fan of Roger Ebert. He's a smart guy, his reviews are well reasoned and come from a learned perspective, and I find the opinions expressed on his blog likewise rational and well-reasoned. I also enjoy his blog entries about old time Chicago. Reminds me of my own youth in the suburbs of Chicago although Ebert has a fair number of years on me.

    LearnedHand on
  • Lord DaveLord Dave Grief Causer Bitch Free ZoneRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    i think that all this argumentation is really just a bunch of hot air. you think games are art? go make some artistic games. actions speak louder than twitters.

    and then an old man will tell his many followers that what you did is not art without looking at it
    and then his followers will follow

    well, yeah

    but you're not going to change anyone's mind by arguing with people on the internet

    still feels good to sit in the echo chamber yellin'

    Lord Dave on
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  • PhonehandPhonehand Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Druhim wrote: »
    Quoth wrote: »
    Druhim wrote: »
    Quoth wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »

    The music composed is art. The skyboxes and other background details (matte paintings, essentially) are art. The character models and the animation are art (I don't think Ebert would decry computer animation as "not art", seeing how he loves Pixar). The voice acting (if applicable) is art (though not always good art).

    But the sum of all these parts is not art, apparently.

    The counter to that would be that the art gallery itself is not art, but it does showcase various pieces of art that you can appreciate independently.

    Individually they are art, but the sum of the parts is not.

    Note I do not actually believe this, I am merely playing devil's advocate.

    i think that the analogy falls apart, though

    it is more like saying that the violinist is playing music, and so are the cellist and the pianist, but when they play together the result is not music

    even if it is a cohesive whole, as opposed to each playing a totally different song, obviously
    I would say a better analogy is you have a 4 piece band playing over here and then there's a dude dancing a little jig and some other dude is drawing on a wall to the music perhaps or maybe he's just drawing for his own reasons. Now all of that together certainly could be experienced as art by someone, but I think you can see how it wouldn't necessarily be so.

    but those things are not a unified whole like video games are

    maybe musical theater would be a better comparison?

    you've got actors and musicians and set designers all working in concert to produce something that, when combined, is art

    in the same way that film is art, really... very similar to the mechanics of making a game except that one is interactive and the other isn't

    that really is almost the only difference, though certainly there are varying degrees involved

    I was intentionally vague about whether all those performers were working in concert because again, it comes back to the viewer's experience. If the viewer experiences something moving about the whole thing and considers what they just experienced to be art, whether the different performers intended to be presenting a unified piece or not is irrelevant. Obviously in a situation where those performers are all on a stage performing a play or an opera, the audience is much more likely to experience it as art. But that's just a matter of degrees, not absolutes. The defining characteristic is still how the audience experiences it.
    there is this
    there is also the question of whether or not what these people are doing is actually art
    many would argue that it lacks the depth required of "art"

    Phonehand on
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  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    No need to write a long here because DiasExMachina and probably others have already covered it. I only read this last page. Might get banned again for this but nothing below is remotely offensive or ban worthy by any rational reader.

    But yeah, cancer jokes really illustrate the level of development of a segment of the readership here.

    On the other hand, Roger Ebert is an intelligent guy who gave a considered opinion on video games. I read his blog regularly and have watched his show and read his reviews for decades.

    I won't mention the the intellectual dynamic present at your finer video game comic sites.

    Some non sequitur types may say that such comments mean that I'm not a "fan" of Penny Arcade. Well, maybe I'm not but such comments certainly aren't the reason. In any event, I'm certainly disappointed with Mike and Jerry's bizarre rants against not just Ebert's thesis but also ad hominum crap.

    But as for "fandom", I don't know. I have read the Penny Arcade comics regularly for years. Do I find them funny? Well, sometimes. More often, I don't get it. A lot I don't find funny. Occassionally, some hillarious will be produced. Whatever the ratio to good to "meh" comics, I still read regularly.

    Of course, I'm also an avid reader of the Pluggers and that sucks every day. Does merely reading a comic on a regular basis make you a "fan"? If it does, I'm a fan of both the Pluggers and Penny Arcade. If not, it's a more complicated issue.

    On the other hand, I can confidently say that I am a fan of Roger Ebert. He's a smart guy, his reviews are well reasons and come from an learned perspective, and I find the opinions expressed on his blog likewise rational and well-reasoned. I also enjoy his blog entries about old time Chicago. Reminds me of my own youth although Ebert has a fair number of years on me.

    I don't think you'll get banned for not liking something G&T put out.

    I think Jerry can be overly venomous at times, today being an example, and that whole debacle with JJGO being another.

    That said, Ebert isn't very open-minded about this whole thing.

    KrunkMcGrunk on
    mrsatansig.png
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    No need to write a thing long here because DiasExMachina and probably others have already covered it. I only read this last page. Might get banned again for this but nothing below is remotely offensive or ban worthy by any rational reader.

    But yeah, cancer jokes really illustrate the level of development of a segment of the readership here.

    On the other hand, Roger Ebert is an intelligent guy who gave a considered opinion on video games. I read his blog regularly and have watched his show and read his reviews for decades.

    I won't mention the the intellectual dynamic present at your finer video game comic sites.

    Some non sequitur types may say that such comments mean that I'm not a "fan" of Penny Arcade. Well, maybe I'm not but such comments certainly aren't the reason. In any event, I'm certainly disappointed with Mike and Jerry's bizarre rants against not just Ebert's thesis but also ad hominum crap.

    But as for "fandom", I don't know. I have read the Penny Arcade comics regularly for years. Do I find them funny? Well, sometimes. More often, I don't get it. A lot I don't find funny. Occassionally, something hillarious will be produced. Whatever the ratio of good to "meh" comics, I still read regularly.

    Of course, I'm also an avid reader of the Pluggers and that sucks every day. Does merely reading a comic on a regular basis make one a "fan"? If it does, I'm a fan of both the Pluggers and Penny Arcade. If not, it's a more complicated issue.

    On the other hand, I can confidently say that I am a fan of Roger Ebert. He's a smart guy, his reviews are well reasoned and come from a learned perspective, and I find the opinions expressed on his blog likewise rational and well-reasoned. I also enjoy his blog entries about old time Chicago. Reminds me of my own youth in the suburbs of Chicago although Ebert has a fair number of years on me.

    there is literally nothing in this post that contributes to this argument in any meaningful way

    so, uh, congratulations i guess?

    Quoth on
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I liked Gabe's comment on the matter.

    End on
    I wish that someway, somehow, that I could save every one of us
    zaleiria-by-lexxy-sig.jpg
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    so uh, congratulations for being a fan of ebert? what is your point, dude

    Quoth on
  • LearnedHandLearnedHand Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited April 2010
    I don't think you'll get banned for not liking something G&T put out.

    You wouldn't think so. But I was banned because I didn't think that Jerry and Mike were among the 50 most awesome dudes in the universe.

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?p=14298043#post14298043

    LearnedHand on
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    wait i think i found it
    In any event, I'm certainly disappointed with Mike and Jerry's bizarre rants against not just Ebert's thesis but also ad hominum crap.

    duly noted

    Quoth on
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2010
    So Ebert says games aren't art. That does not make it true. I say games are art and last time I checked, I was beating Michelle Obama, Oprah and Taylor swift in Time's 100 most influential people list.

    Damn.

    Munkus Beaver on
    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Octopus MelodyOctopus Melody Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Just like Will Eisner called comic books "sequential art" time to start calling video games "interactive digital art" then it'd be impossible to argue it isn't art because look it says so right in the name.

    Octopus Melody on
  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I don't think you'll get banned for not liking something G&T put out.

    You wouldn't think so. But I was banned because I didn't think that Jerry and Mike were among the 50 most awesome dudes in the universe.

    http://forums.penny-arcade.com/showthread.php?p=14298043#post14298043

    You broke the glorious edict

    KrunkMcGrunk on
    mrsatansig.png
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Just like Will Eisner called comic books "sequential art" time to start calling video games "interactive digital art" then it'd be impossible to argue it isn't art because look it says so right in the name.

    sounds good to me

    Quoth on
  • KrunkMcGrunkKrunkMcGrunk Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    So Ebert says games aren't art. That does not make it true. I say games are art and last time I checked, I was beating Michelle Obama, Oprah and Taylor swift in Time's 100 most influential people list.

    Damn.

    Gabe, why you gotta whip that out?

    Now you've turned this thing into a dick-measuring content.

    KrunkMcGrunk on
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  • PhonehandPhonehand Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    oprah is old news

    Phonehand on
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  • World as MythWorld as Myth a breezy way to annoy serious people Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Koshian wrote: »
    So Ebert says games aren't art. That does not make it true. I say games are art and last time I checked, I was beating Michelle Obama, Oprah and Taylor swift in Time's 100 most influential people list.

    Damn.

    and he's being beaten by robert pattinson and susan boyle

    that poll literally means nothing

    that seems like the 100 people whose names we've heard the most in the last two years

    World as Myth on
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  • PhonehandPhonehand Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
  • AneurhythmiaAneurhythmia Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Rarely do I weigh in on current talking points. Firstly, because I feel they are manipulated and forced into the light by its fanatics and also because people are entitled to their opinions but not necessarily their facts. The one catching my attention recently deals with the dialogue over whether or not video games are art. The extremes of this conversation appear to be defined by Roger Ebert at one extend and the operators of Penny Arcade (Gabe and Tycho as they are publically known) at the other. The reason I am discussing this is because I'm a huge fan of both of them and regularly frequent their respective sites. I value Roger's opinion as well as Tycho's (the more vocal of the pair). So where do I place myself?

    Flat squarely in the middle. I sincerely believe both parties are sitting too far in their respective camps. I've played computer games from the early days of Pong. It comes down to expression, which I believe is Roger's point. If someone is expressing something passionately through a work, it is artistic. Someone can even make the claim that true art is long, frustrating, and ultimately unrewarding in its process. Roger's point stems from the format of games. Since a game is user defined and user influenced, and forces a purpose and an objective, it removes the capacity of total expression and is against the purpose of art...to have no purpose. Games must make concessions on multiple levels for the purpose of gameplay.

    A work must be rated on its total expression--meaning music in a game or art in a game does not render the game artistic--it is the totality of the work. Just because a game has art or music does not translate to it being anymore artistic as is an oil painting on canvas being considered more artistic than a graphite expression on paper. In this way, Roger is absolutely correct; nearly every game you can think of is not art. Not Pong or Wing Commander, not Sims or God of War or Gran Turismo. They have no artistic merit. It is unfortunate that these works include music and art and writing, which, when separated, become art, but amalgamated into an interactive game, it loses that expression. However, some other people claim art is any medium which does not produce or serve a function. If you create something which does not create something else and does not serve a purpose (other than entertainment) and is only there to exist, it is an artistic expression. Then, anything can be art.

    In the end, art is subjective and a matter of opinion. For either side to declare their opinions as absolute and fact I believe shows a weakness in both their arguments. There are so many examples of artistic expressions some critics would claim as art and others they would not. Consider these: War miniatures, automobiles, role playing games. Are they artistic? If you buy a warhammer miniature, is it art? Is your painting of that miniature art and if it is...yours or the original sculptures? It's important to know that I never look at aspects of my life and world around it as artistic or not artistic. I don't sit in a theatre contemplating if Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen is art and if Michael Bay considers himself an artist. If we claim Darren Aronofsky's The Fountain is artistic, then Transformers 2 must also be considered art as well, just art I particularly despise. I never liked Jackson Pollock's work but I acknowledge that many people considered him a master. I look at Nick Greenwood, my primary artist for Amethyst and I do indeed declare him as one...an artist. Am I? I have never stood on a soapbox and declared my writing as artistic, but some writing is.

    Going back to Roger and PA, they both make extreme points of yes and no. I've explained Roger's argument. PA counters by declaring my previous point, that nearly anything is art if it's an expression of one or several people's opinion. I can see and understand that as well. However, I think PA missed a hat trick by reducing their talking points to personal attacks against Mr. Ebert. It threatens their opinion as being the knee-jerk reactions of the extreme opposite.

    Tycho makes a point that games like Braid and Flower can be considered art. Roger makes a point that they are not because they have an objective--a purpose to be completed--and thus cannot be considered artistic. I think both sides are right. However, I disagree with Tycho where he says "If a hundred artists create art for five years, how could the result not be art?" Well, a million monkeys typing at typewriters will eventually create Shakespeare but it is not art despite the fact it looks like Shakespeare. I was also upset by Tycho's dismissing of Roger's opinion, further degraded with remarks like "I can't for the life of me figure out why we give a shit what that creature says." It's unnecessary, especially since Roger effectively says something similar ("Why aren't gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves?")

    Mr. Ebert 's fallacy stems from his lack of experience. He refuses to indulge the possibility that he is wrong, nor is he willing to sit down and play these games people have been suggesting. Braid is a good example, so is Flower, two games I have played and would very much claim is art. Yes. I would say that. Braid and Flower have artistic merit. I would go further than that and also claim that Okami, Ico, and Shadow of the Colossus are also artistic. But I have experienced these games directly. But this is my opinion. It is not a declaration to be considered as fact. There are people out there that think Pong has artistic merit. Some people feel Okami and Ico are horrible games and not worth your time. They may not call it art.

    So this is my opinion, which it always was. I think Roger is on shaky ground because he is not willing to expand his definition of art nor is he open to seeing if these games have artistic value by actually playing them. I also think Penny Arcade is wrong by declaring, without concession, that Roger Ebert is "on the wrong side of history" discrediting him as an old man who just doesn't get it. I'm sorry Tycho. We can lay that argument against O'Reilly or Glenn Beck, but don't aim your crosshairs to Roger Ebert in questioning his comprehension of artwork. Remember, this is the guy that stood on a soapbox and declared Dark City as the best film of the year. It is wrong to dismiss him and to drop him in the wastebasket as an obsolete voice of an almost forgotten age.

    Am I an artist? You can call me one...but if someone asked me, I would say no. I'm a storyteller. This is what I do...

    You are the worst storyteller.

    Aneurhythmia on
  • UsagiUsagi Nah Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Langly wrote: »
    this post spoke to me.

    it said "BLADOW I AM A NOVEL"

    BLADOW is my new favorite word, thank you

    Usagi on
  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    It's my favorite onomatopoeia besides FUCKBLAMO

    Langly on
  • billwillbillwill Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Olivaw wrote: »
    I like Roger Ebert! He writes good movie reviews and interesting blog articles

    But he is old, and averse to change, and games are a young medium, and filled with a bunch of very one note experiences

    I can't really blame him for saying games aren't art, but to say they'll never be art is pretty dumb

    This is where the "old" part comes back into play

    not sure where people are getting that he says they'll never be art

    he said that they may be art sometime in the future, but just not in our lifetime

    billwill on
    I hate you and you hate me.
  • Lord DaveLord Dave Grief Causer Bitch Free ZoneRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    billwill wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    I like Roger Ebert! He writes good movie reviews and interesting blog articles

    But he is old, and averse to change, and games are a young medium, and filled with a bunch of very one note experiences

    I can't really blame him for saying games aren't art, but to say they'll never be art is pretty dumb

    This is where the "old" part comes back into play

    not sure where people are getting that he says they'll never be art

    he said that they may be art sometime in the future, but just not in our lifetime

    the title of the article is "video games can never be art"

    reading is an art

    Lord Dave on
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  • FinnienFinnien Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    In my opinion, the best video games are a means of interactive storytelling. If Ebert believes that isn't art, and if games like Heavy Rain, Mass Effect 2, Uncharted 2, or the best of the Final Fantasy series aren't even considered as art, then, to quote his Kick-Ass review, he 'inhabits a world I am so very not interested in.'

    Finnien on
    Finnien - 60 Human Priest
    www.sunderguild.com
  • Octopus MelodyOctopus Melody Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Where does Lady Gaga stand on this issue? She's way higher up on the Times list than even Gabe & Tycho.

    Octopus Melody on
  • billwillbillwill Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    anyway art is completely, entirely subjective

    for someone to tell someone else that something is or isn't art is idiotic. it's art to some of you. it's not art to some of you. accept that and move on.

    billwill on
    I hate you and you hate me.
  • EdcrabEdcrab Actually a hack Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Where does Lady Gaga stand on this issue? She's way higher up on the Times list than even Gabe & Tycho.

    rah rah ah ah ah ah roma roma maaaa ga ga ooh la la

    not art

    Edcrab on
    cBY55.gifbmJsl.png
  • billwillbillwill Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Lord Dave wrote: »
    billwill wrote: »
    Olivaw wrote: »
    I like Roger Ebert! He writes good movie reviews and interesting blog articles

    But he is old, and averse to change, and games are a young medium, and filled with a bunch of very one note experiences

    I can't really blame him for saying games aren't art, but to say they'll never be art is pretty dumb

    This is where the "old" part comes back into play

    not sure where people are getting that he says they'll never be art

    he said that they may be art sometime in the future, but just not in our lifetime

    the title of the article is "video games can never be art"

    reading is an art

    yes it most certainly is, especially when you move past the headline and into the first paragraph.

    "Perhaps it is foolish of me to say 'never,' because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form."

    billwill on
    I hate you and you hate me.
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Ho! Ho! Ho! Drink Coke!Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Where does Lady Gaga stand on this issue? She's way higher up on the Times list than even Gabe & Tycho.

    to Lady Gaga, everything is art

    and nothing is art

    Centipede Damascus on
  • QuothQuoth the Raven Miami, FL FOR REALRegistered User regular
    edited April 2010
    "Perhaps it is foolish of me to say 'never,' because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form."

    wow

    so it starts asinine and just gets worse from there, eh

    Quoth on
  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    Good thing it was true of movies that no one living when they began saw them referred to as art.

    Langly on
  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2010
    that is just overblown silly rhetoric

    he's basically trolling you

    Orikaeshigitae on
  • Octopus MelodyOctopus Melody Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I'd like to play a video game designed by Lady Gaga.

    Octopus Melody on
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    edited April 2010
    I wonder if he meant art as a synonym for 'sophisticated, civilized' as many often do.

    Javen on
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