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My scientific conclusion: victim complex. With a spoonful of bat-shit crazy.
I'm comfortable with saying that, in the end, that particular region is fucked up and deserve each other. I only wish that the people that wanted to get out could immigrate to another country.
Evander, you do realize you're becoming increasingly disturbing and racist in your defense of Israel, right?
Israel is unbeatable because of Ra Ra, the Arabs should be happy with whatever they were offered, they can never win, why isn't everyone denouncing them, those damn terrorists keep innocents near them so who cares about collateral casualties, etc.
You aren't so far gone as to imagine Israel is some shining bastion of goodness and truth, that have acted with nothing but good faith and have brought nothing but sunshine and rainbows to the table, right? Both sides have been involved in a vicious and dirty war for decades, and if you really want to claim there's not a single thing Israel has done that deserves international censure you might want to try a different audience.
Where am I being racist? The Arab nations have continually made horrible mistakes in this whole situation, escalating the issue. Israel, through out all of it, has consistantly proven themselves to indeed be unbeatable.
Yes, of course, it was all those damn Arabs' fault. Are you listening to yourself? Those Arabs just keep fucking up, and Israel keeps winning, so they must not have done anything wrong when dealing with their neighbors, ever. I won't even bother to go into the sad mentality that as long as you keep beating the shit out of people, you must be right and they must be wrong. Oh, and lets not for get poor Israel's plight which prompted this thread, since EVERYONE just hates them so much, when they had no choice whatsoever but to commit atrocity X.
Would it be right for Israel to allow their civilians to die, and do nothing about it?
The Israeli government likes it when their civilians die. It keeps the hardliners in power. It's why they do shit like invading Lebanon on a pretext.
Alright, if you're going to make a counter-intuitive claimlike that, please back it up.
Israel's purpose for existing is to protect Jews. Why the FUCK would they like it when Jews are killed?
I'll tell you something, not only are the hardliners notin power right now (the more moderate Kadima Party is, and they are VERY MUCH in favor of land for peace) but unlike in America, prominant Israeli hardliners very often turn Liberal as they grow older.
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Show me something to the contrary, or stop making baseless accusations.
Evander on
0
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Almost everyone wants to live in peace, assuming their conditions for peace are met. The perpetual violence part is a function of those conditions not being met.
Evander, you do realize you're becoming increasingly disturbing and racist in your defense of Israel, right?
Israel is unbeatable because of Ra Ra, the Arabs should be happy with whatever they were offered, they can never win, why isn't everyone denouncing them, those damn terrorists keep innocents near them so who cares about collateral casualties, etc.
You aren't so far gone as to imagine Israel is some shining bastion of goodness and truth, that have acted with nothing but good faith and have brought nothing but sunshine and rainbows to the table, right? Both sides have been involved in a vicious and dirty war for decades, and if you really want to claim there's not a single thing Israel has done that deserves international censure you might want to try a different audience.
Where am I being racist? The Arab nations have continually made horrible mistakes in this whole situation, escalating the issue. Israel, through out all of it, has consistantly proven themselves to indeed be unbeatable.
Yes, of course, it was all those damn Arabs' fault. Are you listening to yourself? Those Arabs just keep fucking up, and Israel keeps winning, so they must not have done anything wrong when dealing with their neighbors, ever. I won't even bother to go into the sad mentality that as long as you keep beating the shit out of people, you must be right and they must be wrong. Oh, and lets not for get poor Israel's plight which prompted this thread, since EVERYONE just hates them so much, when they had no choice whatsoever but to commit atrocity X.
So, you didn't read my post, did you?
Also, Israel keeps beating the shit out of their neighbors becausetheir neighbors keep attacking them. If their neighbors do not want the shit beaten out of them, they should probably stop attacking Israel. Israel doesn't just go out and decide "today I'm gonna beatthe shit out of some one", Israel defends when it is attacked, and targets specific terrorist groups in foreign lands after the foreign government has shown that they have no interest in combatting the groups themselves.
Have you seen the relative size of Israel to it's neighbors? Before you treat Israel like they are bullying everyone, I encourage you to look at just how big it is.
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Almost everyone wants to live in peace, assuming their conditions for peace are met. The perpetual violence part is a function of those conditions not being met.
Right, and the problem, then, is that Israeli conditions, ultimately, are their own survival, and they simply cannot negotiate on this. Meanwhile, the Palestinians are unwilling to guarantee that they will ever be willing to meetthat condition. They want consetions given to them before they will even negotiate.
As I said before, Palestinian terrorism is esentially extortion.
So, something that I've noticed over time (and I'm not thefirst) but has also kept poppingup in he Zionism thread, is the seemingly double standards that the world applies to criticizng Israel in comparision withthe rest of the world. Since this has nothing to do with Zionism, I decided to create a new thread for it, rather than taking the other one off topic.
No, you idiot, that's a nearly sociopathic straw man.
And that's ad hominem :P
This is because Israeli violence is being inflicted by a modernized western democracy, supposedly being performed by the "good guys", and being enormously supported by American tax dollars, whereas the Palestinian violence is being inflicted by a bunch of terrorists and criminials who the Palestinians are in even less of a position to control than the Israeli defense forces even if they tried.
In other words, the terrorists don't get criticized for acting like terrorists because you expect terrorists to act like terrorists. This doesn't mean it's okay when terrorists do it, it just means expectations are being met. We don't have two sets of standards here, but we have two sets of expectations: One for the good guys and one for the bad guys.
One of these sets of expectations gets applied to America, Israel, Britain, France, Russia, Mexico, Germany etc. The other set of expectations gets applied to North Korea, Palestinian terrorists, Al Qaeda, etc. When people in the latter group behave badly, people don't approve, but nor do they criticize them-- because there's no fucking point. They're not reading this message board. You don't "criticize" criminals and monsters, you imprison or kill them.
We don't expect the good guys to act like terrorists.
When the "good guys" act like terrorists and monsters, though, we react differently. Whether or not it's any better or worse, first off, we're surprised, and second off, we're more inclined to try to stop the problem through things like discussion and critical writing, because people like the Israeli government appear to be rational, reachable human beings-- as well as a democratic group accountable to their people and organized enough to be capable of enacting change in their own situation.
This said, there are two sets of standards being applied here. When the Palestinians get, the way America reacts is to help Israel bomb / starve them into submission. When the Israeli government acts like terrorists, they get criticized. Big fucking deal.
The problem is that Israel has no other choice. It's not like they are killing civilians becausethey don't care about them; theyare killing civilians because it is unavoidabe when the terrorists surround themselves with civilians.
And that makes it right.
No, I never argued that it was morally or ethically right. Inthe situation that Israel has been forced into there IS no right.
Would it be right for Israel to allow their civilians to die, and do nothing about it?
Of course not, which is why they should be doing things within their own country or doing more controlled ops since bombing the fuck out of the civilian population inadvertently hasn't been working for the past decade.
The violence is cyclical. Someone has to stop. It's like two kids punching each other in the arm and it eventually escalating to knives.
And you know what? Israel doesn't give a fuck about Palestinian civilians or else, shock, they wouldn't be so comfortable with the idea that their bombs, whether intentionally or not, are killing civilians.
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Almost everyone wants to live in peace, assuming their conditions for peace are met. The perpetual violence part is a function of those conditions not being met.
Right, and the problem, then, is that Israeli conditions, ultimately, are their own survival,
Would it be right for Israel to allow their civilians to die, and do nothing about it?
The Israeli government likes it when their civilians die. It keeps the hardliners in power. It's why they do shit like invading Lebanon on a pretext.
Alright, if you're going to make a counter-intuitive claimlike that, please back it up.
Israel's purpose for existing is to protect Jews. Why the FUCK would they like it when Jews are killed?
I'll tell you something, not only are the hardliners notin power right now (the more moderate Kadima Party is, and they are VERY MUCH in favor of land for peace) but unlike in America, prominant Israeli hardliners very often turn Liberal as they grow older.
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Show me something to the contrary, or stop making baseless accusations.
It's logic.
The hardliners need an external threat to point to in order to remain in power.
During Clinton's term, when there was a time of relative peace, Israel started having a lot of domestic problems, mostly because the Reform Jews realized that they were being treated a lot like the Catholics in Northern Ireland: all the good shit is being given to the Orthodox Jews, and the Reform Jews are pretty much being shut out. The other thing that people will notice is that the hardliners suck at governing, their economy is in the shitter, and, with no more external threat, there are no more American billions to help fund their government. The people in power need the violence in order to stay in power.
That would be why, every time there's a brief respite from the violence, into a time of relative peace, Israel will try to find the tiniest little excuse to do something like invade Lebanon, and feed right into the terrorist's hands.
Evander, you do realize you're becoming increasingly disturbing and racist in your defense of Israel, right?
Israel is unbeatable because of Ra Ra, the Arabs should be happy with whatever they were offered, they can never win, why isn't everyone denouncing them, those damn terrorists keep innocents near them so who cares about collateral casualties, etc.
You aren't so far gone as to imagine Israel is some shining bastion of goodness and truth, that have acted with nothing but good faith and have brought nothing but sunshine and rainbows to the table, right? Both sides have been involved in a vicious and dirty war for decades, and if you really want to claim there's not a single thing Israel has done that deserves international censure you might want to try a different audience.
Where am I being racist? The Arab nations have continually made horrible mistakes in this whole situation, escalating the issue. Israel, through out all of it, has consistantly proven themselves to indeed be unbeatable.
Yes, of course, it was all those damn Arabs' fault. Are you listening to yourself? Those Arabs just keep fucking up, and Israel keeps winning, so they must not have done anything wrong when dealing with their neighbors, ever. I won't even bother to go into the sad mentality that as long as you keep beating the shit out of people, you must be right and they must be wrong. Oh, and lets not for get poor Israel's plight which prompted this thread, since EVERYONE just hates them so much, when they had no choice whatsoever but to commit atrocity X.
So, you didn't read my post, did you?
Also, Israel keeps beating the shit out of their neighbors becausetheir neighbors keep attacking them. If their neighbors do not want the shit beaten out of them, they should probably stop attacking Israel. Israel doesn't just go out and decide "today I'm gonna beatthe shit out of some one", Israel defends when it is attacked, and targets specific terrorist groups in foreign lands after the foreign government has shown that they have no interest in combatting the groups themselves.
Have you seen the relative size of Israel to it's neighbors? Before you treat Israel like they are bullying everyone, I encourage you to look at just how big it is.
I read your post, and chose to ignore the subjective bone you threw out (No man, I totally stand up for Arabs. This one time I totally defended Palestine, and my Muslim friend was defending Israel.) which may or may not be true, and instead called you on what you continue to say here. It's not enough to wow us with how egalitarian you are while the entire thrust of your discussion in the thread has been made up of beauties like "those civilians had to die because they were near terrorists" and "how dare people critique Israel's atrocities without mentioning every single bad thing its enemies have done".
As to your point here, since Israel currently holds territory belonging to other nations, its more than debatable who started what in any given situation, completely ignoring the fact "they were asking for it" is the shittiest reasoning for foreign policy I've heard in awhile. I'm not saying the actions on both sides are justified, but I'm also damn well not believing Israel should get a free pass for its actions now because of other countries past actions.
And as to size, since has that had fuck all to do with military power? Germany soundly trounced the shit out of Russia's army for a good long while in WW2, does that mean we can't judge their actions because they were so much smaller? Size and military power aren't necessarily correlated in the modern world, and just because you CAN do whatever you want and your enemies can't stop you doesn't mean you should.
My scientific conclusion: victim complex. With a spoonful of bat-shit crazy.
I'm comfortable with saying that, in the end, that particular region is fucked up and deserve each other. I only wish that the people that wanted to get out could immigrate to another country.
The Palestinians aren't being held captive.
You can't just immigrate out of the blue, you know. There's those pesky things, like oh say, regulations.
Which means that even if you want out - you have to stay.
Would it be right for Israel to allow their civilians to die, and do nothing about it?
The Israeli government likes it when their civilians die. It keeps the hardliners in power. It's why they do shit like invading Lebanon on a pretext.
Alright, if you're going to make a counter-intuitive claimlike that, please back it up.
Israel's purpose for existing is to protect Jews. Why the FUCK would they like it when Jews are killed?
I'll tell you something, not only are the hardliners notin power right now (the more moderate Kadima Party is, and they are VERY MUCH in favor of land for peace) but unlike in America, prominant Israeli hardliners very often turn Liberal as they grow older.
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Show me something to the contrary, or stop making baseless accusations.
It's logic.
The hardliners need an external threat to point to in order to remain in power.
During Clinton's term, when there was a time of relative peace, Israel started having a lot of domestic problems, mostly because the Reform Jews realized that they were being treated a lot like the Catholics in Northern Ireland: all the good shit is being given to the Orthodox Jews, and the Reform Jews are pretty much being shut out. The other thing that people will notice is that the hardliners suck at governing, their economy is in the shitter, and, with no more external threat, there are no more American billions to help fund their government. The people in power need the violence in order to stay in power.
That would be why, every time there's a brief respite from the violence, into a time of relative peace, Israel will try to find the tiniest little excuse to do something like invade Lebanon, and feed right into the terrorist's hands.
Thank you for posting that. It's what I wanted to say, but I couldn't make the words good like yours. The only thing I was able to come up with is how war is good for driving an economy and for keeping big wigs in power.
Would it be right for Israel to allow their civilians to die, and do nothing about it?
The Israeli government likes it when their civilians die. It keeps the hardliners in power. It's why they do shit like invading Lebanon on a pretext.
Alright, if you're going to make a counter-intuitive claimlike that, please back it up.
Israel's purpose for existing is to protect Jews. Why the FUCK would they like it when Jews are killed?
I'll tell you something, not only are the hardliners notin power right now (the more moderate Kadima Party is, and they are VERY MUCH in favor of land for peace) but unlike in America, prominant Israeli hardliners very often turn Liberal as they grow older.
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Show me something to the contrary, or stop making baseless accusations.
It's logic.
The hardliners need an external threat to point to in order to remain in power.
During Clinton's term, when there was a time of relative peace, Israel started having a lot of domestic problems, mostly because the Reform Jews realized that they were being treated a lot like the Catholics in Northern Ireland: all the good shit is being given to the Orthodox Jews, and the Reform Jews are pretty much being shut out. The other thing that people will notice is that the hardliners suck at governing, their economy is in the shitter, and, with no more external threat, there are no more American billions to help fund their government. The people in power need the violence in order to stay in power.
That would be why, every time there's a brief respite from the violence, into a time of relative peace, Israel will try to find the tiniest little excuse to do something like invade Lebanon, and feed right into the terrorist's hands.
It's not logic, it's conspiracy theory.
During Clinton's time Rabin was Prime Minister. If you are calling Rabin a hardliner, you know absolutely nothing about Israel. Rabin was basically prepared to just hand the land over and hope for the best. He was hardline for peace, if you will. After he was assassinated, Netanyahu was elected, and yeah, he was a conservative, but he was still not a hardliner. After Netanyahu was Barak, who, as I said earlier, OPEN with the offer of 96% of the land thatthe Palestinians wanted, and was willing to go further. After him was Sharon, who WAS a notorious hard-liner, yet, during his time in office, he softened up, and broke aware from the conservative party in order to form a new moderate party suported the disolving of the settlements and land for peace.
And Olmert, the current PM, took over when Sharon fell ill. He was Sharon's Deputy PM, and his politics are in line with Sharon's.
So unless you have secret information that no one else has, you're full of shit with the whole hardliners causing conflict to maintain control thing.
As for internal Jewish conflict, first of all, Judaism is not broken down in israel like it is in America.
In Israel, either you're a religious Jew,or you aren't. The issue is that the more observant religious Jews hold power over the religious authority in the country, and the less observant religious Jews like to complain about that, even though it doesn't actually stop them from doing whatever they want, and is reallythe most equitable wayto do things, sinceifthe less observant Jews held that authority, the more observant Jews would actually run in to issues where they might be forced to compromise their observance. The government would deal with all of these thingsis they could, but their too busy fighting fortheir survival.
And Jews have been infighting since time imemorrial. The Talmud, our book of Rabbinic laws, is actually just thetranscripts of ancient Rabbis arguing with each other over petty details. I am not exagerating. Fightin with each other is just how we interact.
As for the Israeli economy, their per capita GDP is 28th in the world. Not impressive, but definitely not "in the shitter" Israel also has the BEST ratio of venture capital to GDP inthe entire world, aboutseven times thatof the US. One of Israel's top industries, of course, is Tourism, which is actually HURT by external conflict, so they wouldn't promote the hurting of their top industries to help their economy, now would they?
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Seriously, where the hell are you getting your "facts" from? It's sounds like you're reading off of a list of PLO talking points.
Seriously, stop spewing this baseless bull crap unless you actually have something to back it up with.
Evander on
0
Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Right, and the problem, then, is that Israeli conditions, ultimately, are their own survival, and they simply cannot negotiate on this. Meanwhile, the Palestinians are unwilling to guarantee that they will ever be willing to meetthat condition. They want consetions given to them before they will even negotiate.
As I said before, Palestinian terrorism is esentially extortion.
Their conditions are not simply their own survival. Israel uses platitudes about "survival" to insist on a large number of border conditions and compliance with various conditions of disarmament from their neighbors. After periods of relative clam, Israel has been known to ratchet up these demands or otherwise subvert the conditions of peace, and a dispassionate observer might conclude that Israel's ultimate conditions for "security" are a moving target with no upper limit.
I'm not going to claim that the other nations involved are negotiating in good faith, but it would be absurd to assert that Israel always is.
My scientific conclusion: victim complex. With a spoonful of bat-shit crazy.
I'm comfortable with saying that, in the end, that particular region is fucked up and deserve each other. I only wish that the people that wanted to get out could immigrate to another country.
The Palestinians aren't being held captive.
You can't just immigrate out of the blue, you know. There's those pesky things, like oh say, regulations.
Which means that even if you want out - you have to stay.
Not to mention the economic cost.
I'm not denying the economic cost, although maybe if they put all of those aid dollars towards getting out of refugee camps, instead of towards terrorism...
As for the dificulty of immigrating, that sounds to me like some nation out to open their borders to them. They are surrounded by nations that aretheir so-called allies, I wonder why none are allies enough to do that?
The fact of the matter is, the Palestinians don't want to live inbetter conditions, they want to live in Palestine, and even with the resources, and a place to go to, many have and would choose to stay and wait, even though it means suffering.
Right, and the problem, then, is that Israeli conditions, ultimately, are their own survival, and they simply cannot negotiate on this. Meanwhile, the Palestinians are unwilling to guarantee that they will ever be willing to meetthat condition. They want consetions given to them before they will even negotiate.
As I said before, Palestinian terrorism is esentially extortion.
Their conditions are not simply their own survival. Israel uses platitudes about "survival" to insist on a large number of border conditions and compliance with various conditions of disarmament from their neighbors. After periods of relative clam, Israel has been known to ratchet up these demands or otherwise subvert the conditions of peace, and a dispassionate observer might conclude that Israel's ultimate conditions for "security" are a moving target with no upper limit.
I'm not going to claim that the other nations involved are negotiating in good faith, but it would be absurd to assert that Israel always is.
Israel has indeed done dumb things in the past. I'm not doubting that.
However, they also have some of the best military intelligence in the world, andhave prevented many conflicts, and COUNTLESS terrorist attacks through pre-emptive actions, non-violent pre-emptive actions whenever possible.
When Israel suddenly makes something that sounds like an odd demand, some times it is becauseof idiocy in their government (just like you get idiots inANY democratic government) but some times it is becausethey know something.
And demands about bordersare intrinsicly defense related. When you are surrounded by potential enemies, nothing ismore important then your borders.
My scientific conclusion: victim complex. With a spoonful of bat-shit crazy.
I'm comfortable with saying that, in the end, that particular region is fucked up and deserve each other. I only wish that the people that wanted to get out could immigrate to another country.
The Palestinians aren't being held captive.
You can't just immigrate out of the blue, you know. There's those pesky things, like oh say, regulations.
Which means that even if you want out - you have to stay.
Not to mention the economic cost.
I'm not denying the economic cost, although maybe if they put all of those aid dollars towards getting out of refugee camps, instead of towards terrorism...
As for the dificulty of immigrating, that sounds to me like some nation out to open their borders to them. They are surrounded by nations that aretheir so-called allies, I wonder why none are allies enough to do that?
The fact of the matter is, the Palestinians don't want to live inbetter conditions, they want to live in Palestine, and even with the resources, and a place to go to, many have and would choose to stay and wait, even though it means suffering.
The Palestinians really do get a raw deal.
I laughed at the bolded part. Primarily because it assumes like all these people are hate mongering animals that feed all their life savings to terrorism.
In regards to not opening up their borders: why don't we open up our borders to mexicans? Canadians? Those suffering in Darfur? There's consequences. It's policy.
As far as them not wanting to leave - yeah, you're right. Some probably stay because it's their home. They see it as their livelihoods/tradition/history in the same way that Israel sees their nation as their own.
Your logic is just...funky. While I think the israeli people want peace, I truly believe that the government wants violence. They don't care what happens because they are not the ones dieing. Their people die...whoopdy doo. Our american soldiers are dieing in Iraq but you don't exactly see our administration shedding a tear. None of us would deny that we feel some sort of sympathy for those who lose a loved one, but since it doesn't directly affect us and the administrations see the benefits (see hegemony, oil, profit, etc) outweigh the death of some lower class citizen.
Would it be right for Israel to allow their civilians to die, and do nothing about it?
The Israeli government likes it when their civilians die. It keeps the hardliners in power. It's why they do shit like invading Lebanon on a pretext.
Alright, if you're going to make a counter-intuitive claimlike that, please back it up.
Israel's purpose for existing is to protect Jews. Why the FUCK would they like it when Jews are killed?
I'll tell you something, not only are the hardliners notin power right now (the more moderate Kadima Party is, and they are VERY MUCH in favor of land for peace) but unlike in America, prominant Israeli hardliners very often turn Liberal as they grow older.
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Show me something to the contrary, or stop making baseless accusations.
It's logic.
The hardliners need an external threat to point to in order to remain in power.
During Clinton's term, when there was a time of relative peace, Israel started having a lot of domestic problems, mostly because the Reform Jews realized that they were being treated a lot like the Catholics in Northern Ireland: all the good shit is being given to the Orthodox Jews, and the Reform Jews are pretty much being shut out. The other thing that people will notice is that the hardliners suck at governing, their economy is in the shitter, and, with no more external threat, there are no more American billions to help fund their government. The people in power need the violence in order to stay in power.
That would be why, every time there's a brief respite from the violence, into a time of relative peace, Israel will try to find the tiniest little excuse to do something like invade Lebanon, and feed right into the terrorist's hands.
It's not logic, it's conspiracy theory.
During Clinton's time Rabin was Prime Minister. If you are calling Rabin a hardliner, you know absolutely nothing about Israel. Rabin was basically prepared to just hand the land over and hope for the best. He was hardline for peace, if you will. After he was assassinated, Netanyahu was elected, and yeah, he was a conservative, but he was still not a hardliner. After Netanyahu was Barak, who, as I said earlier, OPEN with the offer of 96% of the land thatthe Palestinians wanted, and was willing to go further. After him was Sharon, who WAS a notorious hard-liner, yet, during his time in office, he softened up, and broke aware from the conservative party in order to form a new moderate party suported the disolving of the settlements and land for peace.
And Olmert, the current PM, took over when Sharon fell ill. He was Sharon's Deputy PM, and his politics are in line with Sharon's.
So unless you have secret information that no one else has, you're full of shit with the whole hardliners causing conflict to maintain control thing.
You're right that Rabin was PM during Clinton's time which, as I pointed out, was a time of relative peace. And when I use the term "hardliner," I'm referring to relative to the rest of the world; in Israel, Stalin would have been a fucking moderate.
I'd hardly call invading Lebanon a "moderate" move.
As for internal Jewish conflict, first of all, Judaism is not broken down in israel like it is in America.
In Israel, either you're a religious Jew,or you aren't. The issue is that the more observant religious Jews hold power over the religious authority in the country, and the less observant religious Jews like to complain about that, even though it doesn't actually stop them from doing whatever they want, and is reallythe most equitable wayto do things, sinceifthe less observant Jews held that authority, the more observant Jews would actually run in to issues where they might be forced to compromise their observance. The government would deal with all of these thingsis they could, but their too busy fighting fortheir survival.
And Jews have been infighting since time imemorrial. The Talmud, our book of Rabbinic laws, is actually just thetranscripts of ancient Rabbis arguing with each other over petty details. I am not exagerating. Fightin with each other is just how we interact.
Maybe you should address the point I'm making, which is that there are factions in Israel who go so far as to riot during times of peace over whether or not the secular Jews should continue getting boned or not.
As for the Israeli economy, their per capita GDP is 28th in the world. Not impressive, but definitely not "in the shitter" Israel also has the BEST ratio of venture capital to GDP inthe entire world, aboutseven times thatof the US. One of Israel's top industries, of course, is Tourism, which is actually HURT by external conflict, so they wouldn't promote the hurting of their top industries to help their economy, now would they?
If Israel's economy is all roses and butterflies, why are they asking for $4 billion in extra aid to prop it up?
And I'm not saying that Israel's economy isn't better than most other countries; I'm saying that, relatively, it's in the shitter.
It's like when America goes into recession, and we can only afford the medium jacuzzi; just because we have the #1 economy doesn't mean it's not in bad shape.
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Who's the conspiracy theorist now?
Seriously, where the hell are you getting your "facts" from? It's sounds like you're reading off of a list of PLO talking points.
Seriously, stop spewing this baseless bull crap unless you actually have something to back it up with.
The whole "we need to present a united front against our enemies" is practically older than time itself. It's how governments have been keeping themselves in power for millenia. It's not rocket science we're talking, here.
And the terrorist groups are guilty of the exact same thing. They need more support from the people, so they try to provoke Israel into attacking, which Israel is usually happy to oblige with.
Would it be right for Israel to allow their civilians to die, and do nothing about it?
The Israeli government likes it when their civilians die. It keeps the hardliners in power. It's why they do shit like invading Lebanon on a pretext.
Alright, if you're going to make a counter-intuitive claimlike that, please back it up.
Israel's purpose for existing is to protect Jews. Why the FUCK would they like it when Jews are killed?
I'll tell you something, not only are the hardliners notin power right now (the more moderate Kadima Party is, and they are VERY MUCH in favor of land for peace) but unlike in America, prominant Israeli hardliners very often turn Liberal as they grow older.
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Show me something to the contrary, or stop making baseless accusations.
It's logic.
The hardliners need an external threat to point to in order to remain in power.
During Clinton's term, when there was a time of relative peace, Israel started having a lot of domestic problems, mostly because the Reform Jews realized that they were being treated a lot like the Catholics in Northern Ireland: all the good shit is being given to the Orthodox Jews, and the Reform Jews are pretty much being shut out. The other thing that people will notice is that the hardliners suck at governing, their economy is in the shitter, and, with no more external threat, there are no more American billions to help fund their government. The people in power need the violence in order to stay in power.
That would be why, every time there's a brief respite from the violence, into a time of relative peace, Israel will try to find the tiniest little excuse to do something like invade Lebanon, and feed right into the terrorist's hands.
Thank you for posting that. It's what I wanted to say, but I couldn't make the words good like yours. The only thing I was able to come up with is how war is good for driving an economy and for keeping big wigs in power.
As far as keeping "Big Wigs" in power, you do realize that Olmert is the first Prime Minister in at least sixteen years to actually be from the same party as his predecessor, right?
Until the seventies or eighties Israel consistantly elected very liberal governments. atthat point they started going back and forth between liberal and conservative almostevery election.
And while theynever miss elections, they have onlyhad one election occur atthe regularly scheduled point in the past sixteen years (the rest mostly occured early).
The conflict has not kept anyonein power in the Israeli government. If anything, it's made it much harder to stay in power, by destabalizing the power structure.
I'm begining tothink that those of you making these claims have never read anything about Israeli Politics. Their political system is actually pretty interesting. It combines some of thestranger things from boththe American system and the British system. One of their parties is devoted soley to Senior's rights, and for some reason it is one of the most popular parties amongst the youngest eligable voters.
Evander on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Israel has indeed done dumb things in the past. I'm not doubting that.
However, they also have some of the best military intelligence in the world, andhave prevented many conflicts, and COUNTLESS terrorist attacks through pre-emptive actions, non-violent pre-emptive actions whenever possible.
When Israel suddenly makes something that sounds like an odd demand, some times it is becauseof idiocy in their government (just like you get idiots inANY democratic government) but some times it is becausethey know something.
And demands about bordersare intrinsicly defense related. When you are surrounded by potential enemies, nothing ismore important then your borders.
The US has the largest and most sophisticated military and international intelligence network in history.
We used this fact to invade Iraq on an ultimately indefensible premise of "national security" that ran counter to our actual intelligence.
Would you have me believe that Israel has not or would not do the same?
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Who's the conspiracy theorist now?
That's not theory.
Remember, I'm from DC. I work for a Government Contractor. I've spent time in Israel.
I once had dinner with one of the Scientists who got the plans for the Atomic Bomb for Israel. You'll never guess which country he got them from.
I know a few open secrets. One of them is that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel in return for its aid. This is "secret" only in as much as America will never "officially" confirm it.
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Who's the conspiracy theorist now?
That's not theory.
Remember, I'm from DC. I work for a Government Contractor. I've spent time in Israel.
I once had dinner with one of the Scientists who got the plans for the Atomic Bomb for Israel. You'll never guess which country he got them from.
I know a few open secrets. One of them is that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel in return for its aid. This is "secret" only in as much as America will never "officially" confirm it.
Yes, thank you, Harry_B.
Thanatos on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Israel has indeed done dumb things in the past. I'm not doubting that.
However, they also have some of the best military intelligence in the world, andhave prevented many conflicts, and COUNTLESS terrorist attacks through pre-emptive actions, non-violent pre-emptive actions whenever possible.
When Israel suddenly makes something that sounds like an odd demand, some times it is becauseof idiocy in their government (just like you get idiots inANY democratic government) but some times it is becausethey know something.
And demands about bordersare intrinsicly defense related. When you are surrounded by potential enemies, nothing ismore important then your borders.
The US has the largest and most sophisticated military and international intelligence network in history.
We used this fact to invade Iraq on an ultimately indefensible premise of "national security" that ran counter to our actual intelligence.
Would you have me believe that Israel has not or would not do the same?
Thereare plenty of documented errors inthe intelligence chain there that were EASILY preventable.
And, for the record, we never invaded onthe ground thattheyhad weapons. By the time we invaded we knew thatthere were no weapons, but decided to invade anywayon principle that Saddam hadn't let us in to look around by the dealine we had given.
Bush even went on TV and said as much, but no one seemed to notice.
Is it POSSIBLE for Israeli intelligence to mess up? Sure, it's possible. However, it's not very likely. If it ever were to happen, you can be sure that Israel would issue an apology as soon as the situation was discovered, not try to justify an extended war anyway just to save face.
Justbecause the US fucked up in a particular way doesn't mean that Israel would do the same.
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Who's the conspiracy theorist now?
That's not theory.
Remember, I'm from DC. I work for a Government Contractor. I've spent time in Israel.
I once had dinner with one of the Scientists who got the plans for the Atomic Bomb for Israel. You'll never guess which country he got them from.
I know a few open secrets. One of them is that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel in return for its aid. This is "secret" only in as much as America will never "officially" confirm it.
Yes, thank you, Harry_B.
Yeah, the whole "I know secret stuff that totally supports my position that I can't reveal, trust me, really, I'm totally right" is frankly, utter garbage.
Is it POSSIBLE for Israeli intelligence to mess up? Sure, it's possible. However, it's not very likely. If it ever were to happen, you can be sure that Israel would issue an apology as soon as the situation was discovered, not try to justify an extended war anyway just to save face.
Justbecause the US fucked up in a particular way doesn't mean that Israel would do the same.
Israeli intelligence is so good, they can figure out what country a battleship is from.
I once had dinner with one of the Scientists who got the plans for the Atomic Bomb for Israel. You'll never guess which country he got them from.
Was this Pollard?
edit" also, which part of DC do you live in, Evander?
Honestly, I forget the guy's name. It was at a Passover seder in the town of Omer. Nice guy, though.
I'm actually from the Greater DC area, butas myfather, and his father before him were DC natives, I consider myself a third generation Washingtonian. I was born and raised in Silver Spring (born in HolyCross Hospital, spitting distance from the Beltway), and my parents still live there, while I'm up in an Apartment in Catonsville until I finish up my degree. I plan to move back down to DC afterwards, though, and either work for the government, or for a contractor.
Is it POSSIBLE for Israeli intelligence to mess up? Sure, it's possible. However, it's not very likely. If it ever were to happen, you can be sure that Israel would issue an apology as soon as the situation was discovered, not try to justify an extended war anyway just to save face.
Justbecause the US fucked up in a particular way doesn't mean that Israel would do the same.
Israeli intelligence is so good, they can figure out what country a battleship is from.
Oh, wait...
Yup, one mistake invalidates EVERYTHING. That makes perfect sense.
Evander on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
I'm actually from the Greater DC area, butas myfather, and his father before him were DC natives, I consider myself a third generation Washingtonian. I was born and raised in Silver Spring (born in HolyCross Hospital, spitting distance from the Beltway), and my parents still live there, while I'm up in an Apartment in Catonsville until I finish up my degree. I plan to move back down to DC afterwards, though, and either work for the government, or for a contractor.
You from thearea?
I grew up in New Mexico, but lived in the area for around four years. I'm probably is the same line of business that you are. Capitol Hill, DuPont Circle, Woodbridge, Fairfax, Fair Lakes. Everyone slags off DC, but I liked the city quite a bit.
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Who's the conspiracy theorist now?
That's not theory.
Remember, I'm from DC. I work for a Government Contractor. I've spent time in Israel.
I once had dinner with one of the Scientists who got the plans for the Atomic Bomb for Israel. You'll never guess which country he got them from.
I know a few open secrets. One of them is that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel in return for its aid. This is "secret" only in as much as America will never "officially" confirm it.
Yes, thank you, Harry_B.
Yeah, the whole "I know secret stuff that totally supports my position that I can't reveal, trust me, really, I'm totally right" is frankly, utter garbage.
Put up or shut up.
It's better than Thanatos, who I'm convinced is just making things up at this point.
I've told you everything, honestly. I don't know the specifics, because I don't need to, but I know that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel. You don't have to take my word for it; I understand why you might not. Hell, you can accuse me of lying, if you like. Just don't accuse me of making up conspiracy theories.
Evander on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Justbecause the US fucked up in a particular way doesn't mean that Israel would do the same.
I have no reason, historical or otherwise, to trust the pure intentions and sense of fairplay of Israel more than I trust the pure intentions and sense of fairplay of the USA.
I'm actually from the Greater DC area, butas myfather, and his father before him were DC natives, I consider myself a third generation Washingtonian. I was born and raised in Silver Spring (born in HolyCross Hospital, spitting distance from the Beltway), and my parents still live there, while I'm up in an Apartment in Catonsville until I finish up my degree. I plan to move back down to DC afterwards, though, and either work for the government, or for a contractor.
You from thearea?
I grew up in New Mexico, but lived in the area for around four years. I'm probably is the same line of business that you are. Capitol Hill, DuPont Circle, Woodbridge, Fairfax, Fair Lakes. Everyone slags off DC, but I liked the city quite a bit.
My younger brother is going to GW right now. He's the crazy ultra-liberal "money is evil" type. It's funny, but fitting, for me to think of him running around down town, and so close to the government buildings.
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Who's the conspiracy theorist now?
That's not theory.
Remember, I'm from DC. I work for a Government Contractor. I've spent time in Israel.
I once had dinner with one of the Scientists who got the plans for the Atomic Bomb for Israel. You'll never guess which country he got them from.
I know a few open secrets. One of them is that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel in return for its aid. This is "secret" only in as much as America will never "officially" confirm it.
Yes, thank you, Harry_B.
Yeah, the whole "I know secret stuff that totally supports my position that I can't reveal, trust me, really, I'm totally right" is frankly, utter garbage.
Put up or shut up.
It's better than Thanatos, who I'm convinced is just making things up at this point.
I've told you everything, honestly. I don't know the specifics, because I don't need to, but I know that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel. You don't have to take my word for it; I understand why you might not. Hell, you can accuse me of lying, if you like. Just don't accuse me of making up conspiracy theories.
Why not? If you're not prepared to support an argument, why make it? Do you expect people to go and do research just to see if you're full of shit or not?
Justbecause the US fucked up in a particular way doesn't mean that Israel would do the same.
I have no reason, historical or otherwise, to trust the pure intentions and sense of fairplay of Israel more than I trust the pure intentions and sense of fairplay of the USA.
That's fair.
However, the reason that you aren't trusting the US, presumably, is because of what theydid. That's why you brought up whatthey did.
All I'm saying is that Israel didn't do that. Israelis actually were in favor of America going in, but unlike America, who gave a million different reasons for it, Israelis consistantly stated thatthey were in favor of doing it because it would get rid of Saddam. They didn't say anything about WMDs, etc.
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Who's the conspiracy theorist now?
That's not theory.
Remember, I'm from DC. I work for a Government Contractor. I've spent time in Israel.
I once had dinner with one of the Scientists who got the plans for the Atomic Bomb for Israel. You'll never guess which country he got them from.
I know a few open secrets. One of them is that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel in return for its aid. This is "secret" only in as much as America will never "officially" confirm it.
Yes, thank you, Harry_B.
Yeah, the whole "I know secret stuff that totally supports my position that I can't reveal, trust me, really, I'm totally right" is frankly, utter garbage.
Put up or shut up.
It's better than Thanatos, who I'm convinced is just making things up at this point.
I've told you everything, honestly. I don't know the specifics, because I don't need to, but I know that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel. You don't have to take my word for it; I understand why you might not. Hell, you can accuse me of lying, if you like. Just don't accuse me of making up conspiracy theories.
Why not? If you're not prepared to support an argument, why make it? Do you expect people to go and do research just to see if you're full of shit or not?
Why are you directling this at me, over the ONE claim I can't back up, and have openly admitted such, when Thanatos, who I was arguing with, has made nothing but baseless claims about some kind of Israeli goverment conspiracy to keep the big wigs in power, despite the fact that the same big wigs don't stay in power, and when asked to back it up sited only "Logic", then skirted the issue.
Ifyour intention is actually to point out a faulty argument, I would think you'd begoing after him first,or at least concurrently. The fact that you pick the one piece of whatI said that I can't back up, and ignore everything he said makes me think your intentions aren't as noble as you claim.
Justbecause the US fucked up in a particular way doesn't mean that Israel would do the same.
I have no reason, historical or otherwise, to trust the pure intentions and sense of fairplay of Israel more than I trust the pure intentions and sense of fairplay of the USA.
That's fair.
However, the reason that you aren't trusting the US, presumably, is because of what theydid. That's why you brought up whatthey did.
All I'm saying is that Israel didn't do that. Israelis actually were in favor of America going in, but unlike America, who gave a million different reasons for it, Israelis consistantly stated thatthey were in favor of doing it because it would get rid of Saddam. They didn't say anything about WMDs, etc.
Well, I had lunch with the PM of Israel the other day, and he was talking about how much he loved it when the Palestinians attacked them, because it kept his government in power.
I am amazed how you can go between saying that Israel cannot be defeated because of their military strength and steely resolve to "Israel has to bomb people for their SURVIVAL!". Seriously, pick one idiotic posture and stick to it. I have already went over the "benefits" the U.S. receives from the billions of aid it provides to Israel in the other thread, so all I will say here is that your "evidence" is less than compelling.
Why are you directling this at me, over the ONE claim I can't back up, and have openly admitted such, when Thanatos, who I was arguing with, has made nothing but baseless claims about some kind of Israeli goverment conspiracy to keep the big wigs in power, despite the fact that the same big wigs don't stay in power, and when asked to back it up sited only "Logic", then skirted the issue.
Ifyour intention is actually to point out a faulty argument, I would think you'd begoing after him first,or at least concurrently. The fact that you pick the one piece of whatI said that I can't back up, and ignore everything he said makes me think your intentions aren't as noble as you claim.
I didn't skirt the issue. You just elected to address an offhand comment I made about you arguing from authority, rather than the bulk of my argument
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Who's the conspiracy theorist now?
That's not theory.
Remember, I'm from DC. I work for a Government Contractor. I've spent time in Israel.
I once had dinner with one of the Scientists who got the plans for the Atomic Bomb for Israel. You'll never guess which country he got them from.
I know a few open secrets. One of them is that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel in return for its aid. This is "secret" only in as much as America will never "officially" confirm it.
Yes, thank you, Harry_B.
Yeah, the whole "I know secret stuff that totally supports my position that I can't reveal, trust me, really, I'm totally right" is frankly, utter garbage.
Put up or shut up.
It's better than Thanatos, who I'm convinced is just making things up at this point.
I've told you everything, honestly. I don't know the specifics, because I don't need to, but I know that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel. You don't have to take my word for it; I understand why you might not. Hell, you can accuse me of lying, if you like. Just don't accuse me of making up conspiracy theories.
Why not? If you're not prepared to support an argument, why make it? Do you expect people to go and do research just to see if you're full of shit or not?
Why are you directling this at me, over the ONE claim I can't back up, and have openly admitted such, when Thanatos, who I was arguing with, has made nothing but baseless claims about some kind of Israeli goverment conspiracy to keep the big wigs in power, despite the fact that the same big wigs don't stay in power, and when asked to back it up sited only "Logic", then skirted the issue.
Ifyour intention is actually to point out a faulty argument, I would think you'd begoing after him first,or at least concurrently. The fact that you pick the one piece of whatI said that I can't back up, and ignore everything he said makes me think your intentions aren't as noble as you claim.
Here's the difference. Than's (whom I often disagree with) observations have a certain credibility because they logically fit the patterns you see in Israel. Not saying he is correct, but there is some credibility there. Your statements regarding the benefits the U.S. receives from supporting Israel are based on your own, proprietary, knowledge that no one can evaluate. They also fly in the face of the actual numbers and figures that I have found researching the issue. Hence, in this case, Than appears more credible on his issue than you do on yours.
Roanth on
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Irond WillWARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!!Cambridge. MAModeratorMod Emeritus
Justbecause the US fucked up in a particular way doesn't mean that Israel would do the same.
I have no reason, historical or otherwise, to trust the pure intentions and sense of fairplay of Israel more than I trust the pure intentions and sense of fairplay of the USA.
That's fair.
However, the reason that you aren't trusting the US, presumably, is because of what they did. That's why you brought up whatthey did.
All I'm saying is that Israel didn't do that. Israelis actually were in favor of America going in, but unlike America, who gave a million different reasons for it, Israelis consistantly stated thatthey were in favor of doing it because it would get rid of Saddam. They didn't say anything about WMDs, etc.
No I'm not talking about Israel's role in the Iraq thing - that was pretty straightforward and much more so than the US's. I'm talking about, in part, Israel's historical propensity for doubletalk as it pertains to cross-border raids and settlements.
I'm just painfully aware of the temptation to use a mythical and secret "intelligence archive" as a pretext for doing whatever the fuck one wants to do. The US Iraq invasion is only one example of this.
Posts
The Palestinians aren't being held captive.
Yes, of course, it was all those damn Arabs' fault. Are you listening to yourself? Those Arabs just keep fucking up, and Israel keeps winning, so they must not have done anything wrong when dealing with their neighbors, ever. I won't even bother to go into the sad mentality that as long as you keep beating the shit out of people, you must be right and they must be wrong. Oh, and lets not for get poor Israel's plight which prompted this thread, since EVERYONE just hates them so much, when they had no choice whatsoever but to commit atrocity X.
Alright, if you're going to make a counter-intuitive claimlike that, please back it up.
Israel's purpose for existing is to protect Jews. Why the FUCK would they like it when Jews are killed?
I'll tell you something, not only are the hardliners notin power right now (the more moderate Kadima Party is, and they are VERY MUCH in favor of land for peace) but unlike in America, prominant Israeli hardliners very often turn Liberal as they grow older.
Israelis DO NOT want to live in a state of perpetual violence. In addition to my personal claim, you can look atany of the quotes or links that I've postedand see that.
Show me something to the contrary, or stop making baseless accusations.
So, you didn't read my post, did you?
Also, Israel keeps beating the shit out of their neighbors becausetheir neighbors keep attacking them. If their neighbors do not want the shit beaten out of them, they should probably stop attacking Israel. Israel doesn't just go out and decide "today I'm gonna beatthe shit out of some one", Israel defends when it is attacked, and targets specific terrorist groups in foreign lands after the foreign government has shown that they have no interest in combatting the groups themselves.
Have you seen the relative size of Israel to it's neighbors? Before you treat Israel like they are bullying everyone, I encourage you to look at just how big it is.
Right, and the problem, then, is that Israeli conditions, ultimately, are their own survival, and they simply cannot negotiate on this. Meanwhile, the Palestinians are unwilling to guarantee that they will ever be willing to meetthat condition. They want consetions given to them before they will even negotiate.
As I said before, Palestinian terrorism is esentially extortion.
Of course not, which is why they should be doing things within their own country or doing more controlled ops since bombing the fuck out of the civilian population inadvertently hasn't been working for the past decade.
The violence is cyclical. Someone has to stop. It's like two kids punching each other in the arm and it eventually escalating to knives.
And you know what? Israel doesn't give a fuck about Palestinian civilians or else, shock, they wouldn't be so comfortable with the idea that their bombs, whether intentionally or not, are killing civilians.
See, that's some fine rhetoric there.
The hardliners need an external threat to point to in order to remain in power.
During Clinton's term, when there was a time of relative peace, Israel started having a lot of domestic problems, mostly because the Reform Jews realized that they were being treated a lot like the Catholics in Northern Ireland: all the good shit is being given to the Orthodox Jews, and the Reform Jews are pretty much being shut out. The other thing that people will notice is that the hardliners suck at governing, their economy is in the shitter, and, with no more external threat, there are no more American billions to help fund their government. The people in power need the violence in order to stay in power.
That would be why, every time there's a brief respite from the violence, into a time of relative peace, Israel will try to find the tiniest little excuse to do something like invade Lebanon, and feed right into the terrorist's hands.
I read your post, and chose to ignore the subjective bone you threw out (No man, I totally stand up for Arabs. This one time I totally defended Palestine, and my Muslim friend was defending Israel.) which may or may not be true, and instead called you on what you continue to say here. It's not enough to wow us with how egalitarian you are while the entire thrust of your discussion in the thread has been made up of beauties like "those civilians had to die because they were near terrorists" and "how dare people critique Israel's atrocities without mentioning every single bad thing its enemies have done".
As to your point here, since Israel currently holds territory belonging to other nations, its more than debatable who started what in any given situation, completely ignoring the fact "they were asking for it" is the shittiest reasoning for foreign policy I've heard in awhile. I'm not saying the actions on both sides are justified, but I'm also damn well not believing Israel should get a free pass for its actions now because of other countries past actions.
And as to size, since has that had fuck all to do with military power? Germany soundly trounced the shit out of Russia's army for a good long while in WW2, does that mean we can't judge their actions because they were so much smaller? Size and military power aren't necessarily correlated in the modern world, and just because you CAN do whatever you want and your enemies can't stop you doesn't mean you should.
You can't just immigrate out of the blue, you know. There's those pesky things, like oh say, regulations.
Which means that even if you want out - you have to stay.
Not to mention the economic cost.
Thank you for posting that. It's what I wanted to say, but I couldn't make the words good like yours. The only thing I was able to come up with is how war is good for driving an economy and for keeping big wigs in power.
It's not logic, it's conspiracy theory.
During Clinton's time Rabin was Prime Minister. If you are calling Rabin a hardliner, you know absolutely nothing about Israel. Rabin was basically prepared to just hand the land over and hope for the best. He was hardline for peace, if you will. After he was assassinated, Netanyahu was elected, and yeah, he was a conservative, but he was still not a hardliner. After Netanyahu was Barak, who, as I said earlier, OPEN with the offer of 96% of the land thatthe Palestinians wanted, and was willing to go further. After him was Sharon, who WAS a notorious hard-liner, yet, during his time in office, he softened up, and broke aware from the conservative party in order to form a new moderate party suported the disolving of the settlements and land for peace.
And Olmert, the current PM, took over when Sharon fell ill. He was Sharon's Deputy PM, and his politics are in line with Sharon's.
So unless you have secret information that no one else has, you're full of shit with the whole hardliners causing conflict to maintain control thing.
As for internal Jewish conflict, first of all, Judaism is not broken down in israel like it is in America.
In Israel, either you're a religious Jew,or you aren't. The issue is that the more observant religious Jews hold power over the religious authority in the country, and the less observant religious Jews like to complain about that, even though it doesn't actually stop them from doing whatever they want, and is reallythe most equitable wayto do things, sinceifthe less observant Jews held that authority, the more observant Jews would actually run in to issues where they might be forced to compromise their observance. The government would deal with all of these thingsis they could, but their too busy fighting fortheir survival.
And Jews have been infighting since time imemorrial. The Talmud, our book of Rabbinic laws, is actually just thetranscripts of ancient Rabbis arguing with each other over petty details. I am not exagerating. Fightin with each other is just how we interact.
As for the Israeli economy, their per capita GDP is 28th in the world. Not impressive, but definitely not "in the shitter" Israel also has the BEST ratio of venture capital to GDP inthe entire world, aboutseven times thatof the US. One of Israel's top industries, of course, is Tourism, which is actually HURT by external conflict, so they wouldn't promote the hurting of their top industries to help their economy, now would they?
And American aid won't stop when the fighting is over. America recieves return for their aid, a lot of it is just classified.
Seriously, where the hell are you getting your "facts" from? It's sounds like you're reading off of a list of PLO talking points.
Seriously, stop spewing this baseless bull crap unless you actually have something to back it up with.
I'm not going to claim that the other nations involved are negotiating in good faith, but it would be absurd to assert that Israel always is.
I'm not denying the economic cost, although maybe if they put all of those aid dollars towards getting out of refugee camps, instead of towards terrorism...
As for the dificulty of immigrating, that sounds to me like some nation out to open their borders to them. They are surrounded by nations that aretheir so-called allies, I wonder why none are allies enough to do that?
The fact of the matter is, the Palestinians don't want to live inbetter conditions, they want to live in Palestine, and even with the resources, and a place to go to, many have and would choose to stay and wait, even though it means suffering.
The Palestinians really do get a raw deal.
Israel has indeed done dumb things in the past. I'm not doubting that.
However, they also have some of the best military intelligence in the world, andhave prevented many conflicts, and COUNTLESS terrorist attacks through pre-emptive actions, non-violent pre-emptive actions whenever possible.
When Israel suddenly makes something that sounds like an odd demand, some times it is becauseof idiocy in their government (just like you get idiots inANY democratic government) but some times it is becausethey know something.
And demands about bordersare intrinsicly defense related. When you are surrounded by potential enemies, nothing ismore important then your borders.
I laughed at the bolded part. Primarily because it assumes like all these people are hate mongering animals that feed all their life savings to terrorism.
In regards to not opening up their borders: why don't we open up our borders to mexicans? Canadians? Those suffering in Darfur? There's consequences. It's policy.
As far as them not wanting to leave - yeah, you're right. Some probably stay because it's their home. They see it as their livelihoods/tradition/history in the same way that Israel sees their nation as their own.
Your logic is just...funky. While I think the israeli people want peace, I truly believe that the government wants violence. They don't care what happens because they are not the ones dieing. Their people die...whoopdy doo. Our american soldiers are dieing in Iraq but you don't exactly see our administration shedding a tear. None of us would deny that we feel some sort of sympathy for those who lose a loved one, but since it doesn't directly affect us and the administrations see the benefits (see hegemony, oil, profit, etc) outweigh the death of some lower class citizen.
I'd hardly call invading Lebanon a "moderate" move.
Maybe you should address the point I'm making, which is that there are factions in Israel who go so far as to riot during times of peace over whether or not the secular Jews should continue getting boned or not.
If Israel's economy is all roses and butterflies, why are they asking for $4 billion in extra aid to prop it up?
And I'm not saying that Israel's economy isn't better than most other countries; I'm saying that, relatively, it's in the shitter.
It's like when America goes into recession, and we can only afford the medium jacuzzi; just because we have the #1 economy doesn't mean it's not in bad shape.
Who's the conspiracy theorist now?
The whole "we need to present a united front against our enemies" is practically older than time itself. It's how governments have been keeping themselves in power for millenia. It's not rocket science we're talking, here.
And the terrorist groups are guilty of the exact same thing. They need more support from the people, so they try to provoke Israel into attacking, which Israel is usually happy to oblige with.
As far as keeping "Big Wigs" in power, you do realize that Olmert is the first Prime Minister in at least sixteen years to actually be from the same party as his predecessor, right?
Until the seventies or eighties Israel consistantly elected very liberal governments. atthat point they started going back and forth between liberal and conservative almostevery election.
And while theynever miss elections, they have onlyhad one election occur atthe regularly scheduled point in the past sixteen years (the rest mostly occured early).
The conflict has not kept anyonein power in the Israeli government. If anything, it's made it much harder to stay in power, by destabalizing the power structure.
I'm begining tothink that those of you making these claims have never read anything about Israeli Politics. Their political system is actually pretty interesting. It combines some of thestranger things from boththe American system and the British system. One of their parties is devoted soley to Senior's rights, and for some reason it is one of the most popular parties amongst the youngest eligable voters.
We used this fact to invade Iraq on an ultimately indefensible premise of "national security" that ran counter to our actual intelligence.
Would you have me believe that Israel has not or would not do the same?
That's not theory.
Remember, I'm from DC. I work for a Government Contractor. I've spent time in Israel.
I once had dinner with one of the Scientists who got the plans for the Atomic Bomb for Israel. You'll never guess which country he got them from.
I know a few open secrets. One of them is that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel in return for its aid. This is "secret" only in as much as America will never "officially" confirm it.
edit" also, which part of DC do you live in, Evander?
Thereare plenty of documented errors inthe intelligence chain there that were EASILY preventable.
And, for the record, we never invaded onthe ground thattheyhad weapons. By the time we invaded we knew thatthere were no weapons, but decided to invade anywayon principle that Saddam hadn't let us in to look around by the dealine we had given.
Bush even went on TV and said as much, but no one seemed to notice.
Is it POSSIBLE for Israeli intelligence to mess up? Sure, it's possible. However, it's not very likely. If it ever were to happen, you can be sure that Israel would issue an apology as soon as the situation was discovered, not try to justify an extended war anyway just to save face.
Justbecause the US fucked up in a particular way doesn't mean that Israel would do the same.
Yeah, the whole "I know secret stuff that totally supports my position that I can't reveal, trust me, really, I'm totally right" is frankly, utter garbage.
Put up or shut up.
Oh, wait...
Honestly, I forget the guy's name. It was at a Passover seder in the town of Omer. Nice guy, though.
I'm actually from the Greater DC area, butas myfather, and his father before him were DC natives, I consider myself a third generation Washingtonian. I was born and raised in Silver Spring (born in HolyCross Hospital, spitting distance from the Beltway), and my parents still live there, while I'm up in an Apartment in Catonsville until I finish up my degree. I plan to move back down to DC afterwards, though, and either work for the government, or for a contractor.
You from thearea?
Yup, one mistake invalidates EVERYTHING. That makes perfect sense.
It's better than Thanatos, who I'm convinced is just making things up at this point.
I've told you everything, honestly. I don't know the specifics, because I don't need to, but I know that America recieves classified information and technology from Israel. You don't have to take my word for it; I understand why you might not. Hell, you can accuse me of lying, if you like. Just don't accuse me of making up conspiracy theories.
My younger brother is going to GW right now. He's the crazy ultra-liberal "money is evil" type. It's funny, but fitting, for me to think of him running around down town, and so close to the government buildings.
Why not? If you're not prepared to support an argument, why make it? Do you expect people to go and do research just to see if you're full of shit or not?
That's fair.
However, the reason that you aren't trusting the US, presumably, is because of what theydid. That's why you brought up whatthey did.
All I'm saying is that Israel didn't do that. Israelis actually were in favor of America going in, but unlike America, who gave a million different reasons for it, Israelis consistantly stated thatthey were in favor of doing it because it would get rid of Saddam. They didn't say anything about WMDs, etc.
Why are you directling this at me, over the ONE claim I can't back up, and have openly admitted such, when Thanatos, who I was arguing with, has made nothing but baseless claims about some kind of Israeli goverment conspiracy to keep the big wigs in power, despite the fact that the same big wigs don't stay in power, and when asked to back it up sited only "Logic", then skirted the issue.
Ifyour intention is actually to point out a faulty argument, I would think you'd begoing after him first,or at least concurrently. The fact that you pick the one piece of whatI said that I can't back up, and ignore everything he said makes me think your intentions aren't as noble as you claim.
Here's the difference. Than's (whom I often disagree with) observations have a certain credibility because they logically fit the patterns you see in Israel. Not saying he is correct, but there is some credibility there. Your statements regarding the benefits the U.S. receives from supporting Israel are based on your own, proprietary, knowledge that no one can evaluate. They also fly in the face of the actual numbers and figures that I have found researching the issue. Hence, in this case, Than appears more credible on his issue than you do on yours.
I'm just painfully aware of the temptation to use a mythical and secret "intelligence archive" as a pretext for doing whatever the fuck one wants to do. The US Iraq invasion is only one example of this.