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Door-step Proseletizing

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Posts

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    While they're out there doing their charity work, they spend their time telling people that condoms don't do anything to prevent AIDS and in fact make you more likely to get it.

    reVerse on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    While they're out there doing their charity work, they spend their time telling people that condoms don't do anything to prevent AIDS and in fact make you more likely to get it.
    Would you rather they not be out there doing the charity work at all? The ban on contraception is pretty well supported, based on Catholic teaching and history. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is part of their ideology.

    The perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good. I challenge you to find any large organization that gets everything right.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Yes, thank god there are priests like him in the Catholic church.

    Oh, wait, no, there aren't.
    Yes, every single priest in every single Catholic church supports everything the Roman Catholic hierarchy does, and it is impossible to be Catholic and be pro-gay rights. Are you even fucking listening to yourself?
    So, they work for, give money to, raise money for, help propagate and recruit for an organization that spends millions of dollars fighting gay marriage, and can't ever speak out about their beliefs, but in their heart of hearts, they truly believe in gay rights?

    Are you even listening to yourself? Literally every action they take and the way they live their lives is completely anti-gay rights. Functionally, there is zero difference between them holding extremely pro-gay rights positions and them holding extremely anti-gay rights positions, because they're fighting the bad fight against gay rights. So, yes, it is functionally impossible for them to be pro-gay rights in any remotely significant fashion, though I guess they can be totally pro-gay rights in every way that doesn't matter even in the slightest.

    Thanatos on
  • taoist drunktaoist drunk Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    delete for redundancy

    taoist drunk on
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    While they're out there doing their charity work, they spend their time telling people that condoms don't do anything to prevent AIDS and in fact make you more likely to get it.
    Would you rather they not be out there doing the charity work at all? The ban on contraception is pretty well supported, based on Catholic teaching and history. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is part of their ideology.

    The perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good. I challenge you to find any large organization that gets everything right.

    I'd like it if they stopped being actively evil. Just because they do some good things on the side doesn't redeem them.

    reVerse on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    While they're out there doing their charity work, they spend their time telling people that condoms don't do anything to prevent AIDS and in fact make you more likely to get it.
    Would you rather they not be out there doing the charity work at all? The ban on contraception is pretty well supported, based on Catholic teaching and history. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is part of their ideology.

    The perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good. I challenge you to find any large organization that gets everything right.
    I'd like it if they stopped being actively evil. Just because they do some good things on the side doesn't redeem them.
    You see it as evil, they see it as good.

    So, unless you pass laws limiting their right to hold certain views, they're not going to stop. I mean, they do have 2000 or so years behind their views. The Catholic Church is probably the oldest continuously existing entity in the West. It, and its ideas, will probably be here long after you and I are gone.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Not seeing yourself as evil does not somehow protect you from people calling you evil.

    HamHamJ on
    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    While they're out there doing their charity work, they spend their time telling people that condoms don't do anything to prevent AIDS and in fact make you more likely to get it.
    Would you rather they not be out there doing the charity work at all? The ban on contraception is pretty well supported, based on Catholic teaching and history. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is part of their ideology.

    The perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good. I challenge you to find any large organization that gets everything right.
    I'd rather the money that goes to them instead go to charities that do good without doing evil. I'm sure the Peace Corps could do a lot with the billions the Catholic Church spends on spreading AIDS, hate, and child rape.

    Thanatos on
  • reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    While they're out there doing their charity work, they spend their time telling people that condoms don't do anything to prevent AIDS and in fact make you more likely to get it.
    Would you rather they not be out there doing the charity work at all? The ban on contraception is pretty well supported, based on Catholic teaching and history. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is part of their ideology.

    The perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good. I challenge you to find any large organization that gets everything right.
    I'd like it if they stopped being actively evil. Just because they do some good things on the side doesn't redeem them.
    You see it as evil, they see it as good.

    So, unless you pass laws limiting their right to hold certain views, they're not going to stop. I mean, they do have 2000 or so years behind their views. The Catholic Church is probably the oldest continuously existing entity in the West. It, and its ideas, will probably be here long after you and I are gone.

    Being old doesn't make them good or right. It just makes them old.

    reVerse on
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    No one suggested passing laws against Catholics being allowed to do their thing.

    You see, it's the conservative, largely Christian people who are into passing laws to restrict other people's lives.

    Regina Fong on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    You see it as evil, they see it as good.

    So, unless you pass laws limiting their right to hold certain views, they're not going to stop. I mean, they do have 2000 or so years behind their views. The Catholic Church is probably the oldest continuously existing entity in the West. It, and its ideas, will probably be here long after you and I are gone.
    They subsidize child rape, and provide safe harbor for child rapists.

    I'm curious as to how, exactly, one interprets that as not evil...?

    Thanatos on
  • NuckerNucker Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    If you're born in America, there really isn't a realistic alternative to being American.

    There are literally thousands of alternatives to Catholicism, and not only are they not difficult to get into, most of them actively encourage you to join. So, really, for the one, your choice is "uproot your entire family, leave everything and everyone you've ever known, pay a whole bunch of money, probably have to learn a new language, and try to maybe be able to get into another country, if you're lucky," and the other you have "spend Sunday morning with the child rapists, or have to drive a little further down the block to spend it with the non-rapists."

    Little bit of a difference, there.

    There are literally hundreds of different countries you could move to if you don't agree with the policies of the United States. Yes, you would have to radically alter your lifestyle depending on the country you move to.

    That doesn't change the fact that you could do it, but choose not to.

    Moreover, it doesn't change the fact that asking someone born into a religion or who has been part of a religion for many years to suddenly change what they believe is not so simple as you make it out to be.

    Nucker on
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Nucker wrote: »
    asking someone born into a religion or who has been part of a religion for many years to suddenly change what they believe is not so simple as you make it out to be.

    And yet missionaries ask people to do just this very thing, every single day, like it's no thing.

    Regina Fong on
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Some of the Jesus bashers in this thread are starting to resemble the anti-mosque protesters in NY.

    "The Muslims danced on 9/11!"
    "Mormon tithe money supports bigotry!"
    "Islam is not a religion of peace - it's aggressive and militant!"
    "Catholic clergy subsidize child rape!"

    emnmnme on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Nucker wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    If you're born in America, there really isn't a realistic alternative to being American.

    There are literally thousands of alternatives to Catholicism, and not only are they not difficult to get into, most of them actively encourage you to join. So, really, for the one, your choice is "uproot your entire family, leave everything and everyone you've ever known, pay a whole bunch of money, probably have to learn a new language, and try to maybe be able to get into another country, if you're lucky," and the other you have "spend Sunday morning with the child rapists, or have to drive a little further down the block to spend it with the non-rapists."

    Little bit of a difference, there.
    There are literally hundreds of different countries you could move to if you don't agree with the policies of the United States. Yes, you would have to radically alter your lifestyle depending on the country you move to.

    That doesn't change the fact that you could do it, but choose not to.

    Moreover, it doesn't change the fact that asking someone born into a religion or who has been part of a religion for many years to suddenly change what they believe is not so simple as you make it out to be.
    Uh... actually, there aren't hundreds of countries you could move to if you don't agree with the politics of the U.S. I mean, if we restrict it to countries which have better politics, there are maybe a few dozen. Now, let's restrict it to those with with better politics than the U.S. that are reasonably easy to immigrate to... oh, wait, there aren't any, unless you're already living a fairly privileged life. So, for the vast majority of us, there really isn't an option.

    Not to mention that any country you move to is going to do at least some fucked-up shit, whereas there are plenty of open-minded religions you could switch to (or just become secular) that don't really do any fucked up shit at all.

    Thanatos on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Some of the Jesus bashers in this thread are starting to resemble the anti-mosque protesters in NY.

    "The Muslims danced on 9/11!"
    "Mormon tithe money supports bigotry!"
    "Islam is not a religion of peace - it's aggressive and militant!"
    "Catholic clergy subsidize child rape!"
    It's almost as if Catholicism and Mormonism are monolithic religions with single leaders, whereas Islam is divided into numerous sects with many different beliefs.

    Almost...

    Thanatos on
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Points to 'off' Points to 'on'Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Some of the Jesus bashers in this thread are starting to resemble the anti-mosque protesters in NY.

    "The Muslims danced on 9/11!"
    "Mormon tithe money supports bigotry!"
    "Islam is not a religion of peace - it's aggressive and militant!"
    "Catholic clergy subsidize child rape!"
    It's almost as if Catholicism and Mormonism are monolithic religions with single leaders, whereas Islam is divided into numerous sects with many different beliefs.

    Almost...
    Catholicism and Mormonism aren't religions, they're sects of Christianity. The same way Sunni and Shia are sects of Islam. Or, denominations, if sect is too divisive a word.

    matt has a problem on
    nibXTE7.png
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    While they're out there doing their charity work, they spend their time telling people that condoms don't do anything to prevent AIDS and in fact make you more likely to get it.
    Would you rather they not be out there doing the charity work at all? The ban on contraception is pretty well supported, based on Catholic teaching and history. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is part of their ideology.

    The perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good. I challenge you to find any large organization that gets everything right.

    Would you rather the Taliban not be out there helping flood victims?

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • JudgementJudgement Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    While they're out there doing their charity work, they spend their time telling people that condoms don't do anything to prevent AIDS and in fact make you more likely to get it.
    Would you rather they not be out there doing the charity work at all? The ban on contraception is pretty well supported, based on Catholic teaching and history. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is part of their ideology.

    The perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good. I challenge you to find any large organization that gets everything right.

    Would you rather the Taliban not be out there helping flood victims?

    Would you like to show where the church has promoted terrorism to accomplish a goal?

    Judgement on
    309151-1.png
  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2010
    Judgement wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Some churches donate to organizations like the Catholic Worker, too. It's not like every penny people give goes directly to heinous efforts. Catholic Workers' Catholicism is very important to them, but their mission is the opposite of hateful. They're not a subsidiary of the RCC, but individual churches do donate to them.
    The Catholic Church also does a shit-ton of charity work in some of the most awful parts of the world. Probably moreso than any other non-governmental organization in the world.

    Like any large organization, there are good aspects and bad aspects to the RCC.

    While they're out there doing their charity work, they spend their time telling people that condoms don't do anything to prevent AIDS and in fact make you more likely to get it.
    Would you rather they not be out there doing the charity work at all? The ban on contraception is pretty well supported, based on Catholic teaching and history. I certainly don't agree with it, but it is part of their ideology.

    The perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good. I challenge you to find any large organization that gets everything right.

    Would you rather the Taliban not be out there helping flood victims?

    Would you like to show where the church has promoted terrorism to accomplish a goal?

    Abortion bombings in some cases, but that's not near the same level.

    nstf on
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Judgement wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Would you rather the Taliban not be out there helping flood victims?
    Would you like to show where the church has promoted terrorism to accomplish a goal?
    In Africa, they've promoted mysticism to the point where people rape virgins in an effort to kill AIDS, and lobbied Uganda until they nearly passed a law imposing the death penalty on gay people. They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.

    I would classify all of that as various forms of terrorism.

    Thanatos on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Judgement wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Would you rather the Taliban not be out there helping flood victims?
    Would you like to show where the church has promoted terrorism to accomplish a goal?
    In Africa, they've promoted mysticism to the point where people rape virgins in an effort to kill AIDS, and lobbied Uganda until they nearly passed a law imposing the death penalty on gay people. They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.

    I would classify all of that as various forms of terrorism.

    While horrific, they aren't terrorism as they don't seek to further a political goal, with the possible exception of the bit about gay people.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Judgement wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Would you rather the Taliban not be out there helping flood victims?
    Would you like to show where the church has promoted terrorism to accomplish a goal?
    In Africa, they've promoted mysticism to the point where people rape virgins in an effort to kill AIDS, and lobbied Uganda until they nearly passed a law imposing the death penalty on gay people. They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.

    I would classify all of that as various forms of terrorism.
    While horrific, they aren't terrorism as they don't seek to further a political goal, with the possible exception of the bit about gay people.
    I would consider preventing the use of birth control to be a political goal. I would consider concealing horrific crimes committed by the priesthood to be a political goal. I would most definitely consider genocide to be a political goal.

    Thanatos on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Judgement wrote: »
    Scalfin wrote: »
    Would you rather the Taliban not be out there helping flood victims?
    Would you like to show where the church has promoted terrorism to accomplish a goal?
    In Africa, they've promoted mysticism to the point where people rape virgins in an effort to kill AIDS, and lobbied Uganda until they nearly passed a law imposing the death penalty on gay people. They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.

    I would classify all of that as various forms of terrorism.
    While horrific, they aren't terrorism as they don't seek to further a political goal, with the possible exception of the bit about gay people.
    I would consider preventing the use of birth control to be a political goal. I would consider concealing horrific crimes committed by the priesthood to be a political goal. I would most definitely consider genocide to be a political goal.

    Not when the motivations are religious

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I would consider preventing the use of birth control to be a political goal. I would consider concealing horrific crimes committed by the priesthood to be a political goal. I would most definitely consider genocide to be a political goal.
    Not when the motivations are religious
    ...

    ... ...

    For real?

    Thanatos on
  • ScalfinScalfin __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2010
    Since when was terrorism the only bad thing an organization could do? Is this just a way to erase the church's support of the nazis?

    Scalfin on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The rest of you, I fucking hate you for the fact that I now have a blue dot on this god awful thread.
  • NuckerNucker Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Nucker wrote: »
    asking someone born into a religion or who has been part of a religion for many years to suddenly change what they believe is not so simple as you make it out to be.

    And yet missionaries ask people to do just this very thing, every single day, like it's no thing.

    Some do. Some say something along the lines of, "This is our religion, do you think this is for you? If so, we'd be happy to talk more with you about it and include you in our religious services."

    Those are two different things. To lump all missionaries together under the first is prejudicial--if you're okay with being prejudiced, fine, but that's what it is.
    Thanatos wrote:
    Nucker wrote:
    Thanatos wrote:
    If you're born in America, there really isn't a realistic alternative to being American.

    There are literally thousands of alternatives to Catholicism, and not only are they not difficult to get into, most of them actively encourage you to join. So, really, for the one, your choice is "uproot your entire family, leave everything and everyone you've ever known, pay a whole bunch of money, probably have to learn a new language, and try to maybe be able to get into another country, if you're lucky," and the other you have "spend Sunday morning with the child rapists, or have to drive a little further down the block to spend it with the non-rapists."

    Little bit of a difference, there.

    There are literally hundreds of different countries you could move to if you don't agree with the policies of the United States. Yes, you would have to radically alter your lifestyle depending on the country you move to.

    That doesn't change the fact that you could do it, but choose not to.

    Moreover, it doesn't change the fact that asking someone born into a religion or who has been part of a religion for many years to suddenly change what they believe is not so simple as you make it out to be.

    Uh... actually, there aren't hundreds of countries you could move to if you don't agree with the politics of the U.S. I mean, if we restrict it to countries which have better politics, there are maybe a few dozen. Now, let's restrict it to those with with better politics than the U.S. that are reasonably easy to immigrate to... oh, wait, there aren't any, unless you're already living a fairly privileged life. So, for the vast majority of us, there really isn't an option.

    Not to mention that any country you move to is going to do at least some fucked-up shit, whereas there are plenty of open-minded religions you could switch to (or just become secular) that don't really do any fucked up shit at all.

    Your point is that people who have a certain religious belief and religious structure can easily choose to be apart of a different belief and structure. From your perspective that may be true, but from theirs? Not so much. Aside from those religions that condemn a person to hell for not following their tenets, we're talking about lifetimes of socialization and development with a core of particular religious beliefs and practices.

    Secondly--you always have a choice. If you need to justify the choice to pay taxes to a government waging a war you disagree with by saying you'd be thrown in jail if you didn't pay taxes, that's fine--you're still on the hook for being an ignorant war-mongering American. If you want to be prejudicial about all members of a religion you disagree with, fine--but it's still ridiculous prejudice.

    Nucker on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I would consider preventing the use of birth control to be a political goal. I would consider concealing horrific crimes committed by the priesthood to be a political goal. I would most definitely consider genocide to be a political goal.
    Not when the motivations are religious
    ...

    ... ...

    For real?

    Ok I shouldn't post while trying to wrap up work for the afternoon lol.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I would consider preventing the use of birth control to be a political goal. I would consider concealing horrific crimes committed by the priesthood to be a political goal. I would most definitely consider genocide to be a political goal.
    Not when the motivations are religious
    ...

    ... ...

    For real?

    Ok what I was getting at before I failed so massively was that terrorism necessitates a political purpose or cause. Religion can be a facet of the specific act or group, but a religious element to violence does not itself terrorism make.

    So when you talk about these actions abroad I don't think you can label it terrorism, as the political motivation largely missing.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    I would consider preventing the use of birth control to be a political goal. I would consider concealing horrific crimes committed by the priesthood to be a political goal. I would most definitely consider genocide to be a political goal.
    Not when the motivations are religious
    ...

    ... ...

    For real?

    Ok what I was getting at before I failed so massively was that terrorism necessitates a political purpose or cause. Religion can be a facet of the specific act or group, but a religious element to violence does not itself terrorism make.

    So when you talk about these actions abroad I don't think you can label it terrorism, as the political motivation largely missing.

    Making a distinction between politics and religion is a very recent, very western idea. For the majority of human history the two have been so intertwined as to be inseparable.

    RiemannLives on
    Attacked by tweeeeeeees!
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Thanatos wrote: »
    In Africa, they've promoted mysticism to the point where people rape virgins in an effort to kill AIDS]
    The Catholic Church is not behind this. I challenge you to come up with any evidence of this ridiculous claim.
    and lobbied Uganda until they nearly passed a law imposing the death penalty on gay people.
    The Catholic Church opposed that bill, as did a number of prominent American Evangelicals.
    They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.
    Corrupt people in a large organization did shitty things. Of course, the fact that their actions went against the established dogma of that organization is a point you conviently ignore.

    As is common with you, you're just making shit up and spewing stuff you know is untrue.
    I would classify all of that as various forms of terrorism.
    Plus, you don't know how to use a dictionary.

    I can't believe you're making me defend the RCC.

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  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.
    Corrupt people in a large organization did shitty things. Of course, the fact that their actions went against the established dogma of that organization is a point you conviently ignore.
    As did the bishops and archbishops who shielded the offenders and moved them to new parishes.

    Captain Carrot on
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.
    Corrupt people in a large organization did shitty things. Of course, the fact that their actions went against the established dogma of that organization is a point you conviently ignore.
    As did the bishops and archbishops who shielded the offenders and moved them to new parishes.

    Yeah, any large corporation is going to have good people and evil people in it. But at what point should the "good" people take a look at all the shit the evil people are doing and getting away with and either A) make them stop or B) if they're unable to make them stop, leave and form their own God-club that doesn't involve molesting kids?

    KalTorak on
  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2010
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.
    Corrupt people in a large organization did shitty things. Of course, the fact that their actions went against the established dogma of that organization is a point you conviently ignore.
    As did the bishops and archbishops who shielded the offenders and moved them to new parishes.

    Yeah, any large corporation is going to have good people and evil people in it. But at what point should the "good" people take a look at all the shit the evil people are doing and getting away with and either A) make them stop or B) if they're unable to make them stop, leave and form their own God-club that doesn't involve molesting kids?

    Name me one large organization that isn't full to the hilt with corruption that doesn't only crack down when it's easy or when pressured? I doubt you can.

    The Catholic Church is made up of humans, with human failings. I works as an large institute does, and suffers even more problems because frankly it's fucking gigantic.

    Their idiotic stance on priest sexuality has lead to some terrible problems, this is true and they should be pushed into fixing it. Maybe the good priests are trying to fix it from within? There is a ton we don't know due to the nature of the Vatican. For all the good the Catholic Church does (and their charity efforts are fucking massive) it's rather odd to pillage them all for a few bad actions.

    It's not like Vatican city itself is run like some country where you can have multiple wives, mutilation is common, kid porking is a nightly activity, injecting people with aids takes place of bingo, and at happy hour you lynch you a fag.

    nstf on
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    So, is it ever the fault of the organization when it's members do something terrible, or can it always be brushed aside as the actions of "a few corrupt people?"

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.
    Corrupt people in a large organization did shitty things. Of course, the fact that their actions went against the established dogma of that organization is a point you conviently ignore.
    As did the bishops and archbishops who shielded the offenders and moved them to new parishes.
    And the Catholic Church has said that they are treating the sex abuse problem with the utmost seriousness. In fact, they've now declared that raping children is as bad as ordaining women.

    Thanatos on
  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Modern Man wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    They also let their priests rape children, then protect them from any sort of repercussions.
    Corrupt people in a large organization did shitty things. Of course, the fact that their actions went against the established dogma of that organization is a point you conviently ignore.
    As did the bishops and archbishops who shielded the offenders and moved them to new parishes.

    Actually neither of these things are, in the strictest sense, dogmas of the Church - that refers to specific fundamental articles of faith concerning things like the unity and trinity of God. Child sex abuse is certainly against the teaching of the Church. The issue of how members of the Church hierarchy dealt with it and whether or not such matters are, or even should be, reported to the secular authorities is a rather more thorny topic.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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  • MyDcmbrMyDcmbr PEWPEWPEW!!! America's WangRegistered User regular
    edited August 2010
    Lawmaker supports Abortion- Excommunication

    Priest rapes little boy in congregation- Swept under rug and moved to a different parish.


    That makes sense.

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  • nstfnstf __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2010
    So, is it ever the fault of the organization when it's members do something terrible, or can it always be brushed aside as the actions of "a few corrupt people?"

    Yes.

    Let's use Enron as an example. Here is an organization that ran itself into the ground, bankrupted a shit ton of people, wrecked California, and fucked over an entire city in Texas. Not to mention the damage caused by dirty politics and it's advocation of deregulation. I think we can all universally agree that was a gigantic mess.

    Who's fault was it?

    Well, all their actions were completely inline with their company ethos and they knew the entire time what they were doing was highly illegal and they were fucking over millions of people. Yet they did it anyways out of greed and pride. This came universally from the top and they didn't give a fuck and knew it was wrong. Enron was a bad organization.

    But it's not fair to condemn everybody there. As some came out against it, got brushed under the rug, and many didn't know.

    I'd say it comes down to the actual ethos of the organization and it's values.

    nstf on
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