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Enter the Tiger Mom
Atomika
Live fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered User regular
Live fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered User regular
So, what say we? Is "the Chinese Way" of raising children, per Yale professor Amy Chua, the way we should be adopting here in the West? Should we expect excellence and denigrate them for performance that falls anything short of that? Should we force our toddlers into 5 hours a day of musical instruction and call them horrible names when they can't prove themselves masters of the arts by age six?
Arguments fer and agin'.
Naturally, I think Amy Chua is a monster and should be cast into the flames of perdition, or drawn and rent slowly by a team of Clydesdales.
Yes, she probably does have a point that many Western families let their kids waste themselves and refuse to give them needed direction. Yes, kids today have a killer number of distractions that generations before them did not. Yes, America is losing its place in the competition for global labor.
The problem here is that Chua is espousing a rearing technique that at best develops well-practiced copycats and drones; master-level musician and doctor drones, sure, but the "Tiger Mom" technique doesn't build anything but a guilt and fear-based work ethic, and an unhealthy loathing for one's parents.
What parents like Chua fail (and always have failed) to understand is that true success comes not just from skill or mastery, but a deep and personal passion for the subject at hand. All master artists are skilled in the tools of the trade, but only those with a love for the craft go on to be successful. Most renowned doctors or athletes didn't get that way because they feared retribution from their angry parents; they genuinely wanted to achieve in their field.
It seems like Chua and those who agree with her are trapped in this sad 1950s mindset, not unlike many of our grandparents, where "success" is equitable to your job title, not your income or regard by your peers or your ability to be a good provider to your own kids. My grandparents still ask me about once a year or so, "Do you think you still could go to medical school?" I'm almost thirty, I'm happily married, I've live very comfortably in a nice house with two cars, I work about 36 hours a week, and the wife and I are trying for a baby later this year. Going to medical school would put me tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars in debt, it would take away my income for at least 4 years, and even when I got out I would spend 60-80 hours a week at work. But hey, at least my grandparents, who have three years of college between them, could brag at church that their grandson is a doctor.
The underlying condition seems to be that even allegedly educated people like Prof. Chua have no idea what "success" really is, and their only way to ensure it in their children is to live vicariously through their achievements. It seems endemic of this era in of the American Dream where the older generation is so separated culturally from the younger that the old definitions of labor and living no longer apply. Mark Zuckerberg became one of the richest people in America by age 25 not by being child prodigy or master cellist, but by simply exploiting a burgeoning market using computer skills anyone could garner at a local community college.
The model for success in the West has always been innovation, and the West still leads the world in technological advancements that make the world a better place. The East, despite thousands of years of aggressive child-rearing techniques, has largely been quiet on that front in modern times, few moreso than China itself, originator of the "Tiger Mom."
I'll end this post with a nice counterargument from the Taiwanese-American author in the second link above:
". . . if China does manage to turn out a highly-educated generation of confident individuals who think for themselves, maybe it's not America that needs to be scared."
Arguments fer and agin'.
Naturally, I think Amy Chua is a monster and should be cast into the flames of perdition, or drawn and rent slowly by a team of Clydesdales.
Yes, she probably does have a point that many Western families let their kids waste themselves and refuse to give them needed direction. Yes, kids today have a killer number of distractions that generations before them did not. Yes, America is losing its place in the competition for global labor.
The problem here is that Chua is espousing a rearing technique that at best develops well-practiced copycats and drones; master-level musician and doctor drones, sure, but the "Tiger Mom" technique doesn't build anything but a guilt and fear-based work ethic, and an unhealthy loathing for one's parents.
What parents like Chua fail (and always have failed) to understand is that true success comes not just from skill or mastery, but a deep and personal passion for the subject at hand. All master artists are skilled in the tools of the trade, but only those with a love for the craft go on to be successful. Most renowned doctors or athletes didn't get that way because they feared retribution from their angry parents; they genuinely wanted to achieve in their field.
It seems like Chua and those who agree with her are trapped in this sad 1950s mindset, not unlike many of our grandparents, where "success" is equitable to your job title, not your income or regard by your peers or your ability to be a good provider to your own kids. My grandparents still ask me about once a year or so, "Do you think you still could go to medical school?" I'm almost thirty, I'm happily married, I've live very comfortably in a nice house with two cars, I work about 36 hours a week, and the wife and I are trying for a baby later this year. Going to medical school would put me tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars in debt, it would take away my income for at least 4 years, and even when I got out I would spend 60-80 hours a week at work. But hey, at least my grandparents, who have three years of college between them, could brag at church that their grandson is a doctor.
The underlying condition seems to be that even allegedly educated people like Prof. Chua have no idea what "success" really is, and their only way to ensure it in their children is to live vicariously through their achievements. It seems endemic of this era in of the American Dream where the older generation is so separated culturally from the younger that the old definitions of labor and living no longer apply. Mark Zuckerberg became one of the richest people in America by age 25 not by being child prodigy or master cellist, but by simply exploiting a burgeoning market using computer skills anyone could garner at a local community college.
The model for success in the West has always been innovation, and the West still leads the world in technological advancements that make the world a better place. The East, despite thousands of years of aggressive child-rearing techniques, has largely been quiet on that front in modern times, few moreso than China itself, originator of the "Tiger Mom."
I'll end this post with a nice counterargument from the Taiwanese-American author in the second link above:
". . . if China does manage to turn out a highly-educated generation of confident individuals who think for themselves, maybe it's not America that needs to be scared."
Atomika on
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Or was that just her trying to justify the book after people lashed out against her?
The latter, I think. There's a lot of evidence out there showing Chua's methods to be genuine.
I can't get why she would force them onto her kids. She picked their hobbies for them, and their enjoyment of those hobbies was irrelevant. She chose them maybe because it was simply another avenue to succeed at? Heck, she could have chosen anything for them, and then demanded absolute perfection just for the absolute sake of it.
But man, to reject a kids birthday card because it wasn't good enough? I can't wrap my head around that. If it was given out of love, why couldn't have it been accepted out of love? I always think back to The Crow "Mother is the word for God on the lips and hearts of children everywhere." I guess Prof. Chua didn't get the memo.
Case in point: I played junior-league golf during the summers when I was a kid. I was decent, but not great, but I still have a fondness for the game today.
The two best golfers in my age group both were removed from their parents by CPS for child abuse, and yes, one of those kids was Asian. Despite getting offered scholarships for golf, neither kid played golf ever again after high school. The Asian kid was actually the one turned his parents in to the authorities.
She is now an adult and absolutely hates the violin and will probably never touch it again, even though she loves music something fierce.
Go Go Tiger Mom!
Was the abuse related to their golfing failures? Like, they didn't get the 1st place trophy, and got a stout beating for it?
Yep.
I can remember one Summer tourney when we were all about 13 or 14. The Asian kid was in my foursome, and bogeyed the 17th after keeping it pretty close to even par all day. He cried the entire last hole that his dad would beat him if that bogey kept him from winning.
The other kid I mentioned got to watch as police escorted his dad off the course during a State-sanctioned tournament for repeated violations of no-contact rules.
A mate of mine growing up is the same with the Piano, he never achieved the kind of excellence to perform but he plays it pretty well. He just hates the fucking thing.
I do sometimes wish my parents had been more forceful teaching me stuff though, I have no artistic skills whatsoever.
guys, you know what happened to the last guy who talked about sagat's mother?
This whole tiger parenting thing i think will probably die out in a generation or two as the many first generation asian american children grow up and reject their parents' ideals. I know most of the people raised this way have and i doubt this way of parenting will survive well without the widespread cultural acceptance it has in asian countries.
Unless by best results you mean "asocialised, resentful malcontents"
I figure if they try enough things, they'll stumble across something they both love and kick ass at. What that thing is, I don't really care.
That's basically what the second author is implying. Even in China this way of child-rearing is starting to be looked on as old-fashioned and needless, so there's every chance that in a few more generations this will all be just some quaint anachronism.
But still, old habits die hard, especially in areas of reduced exposure to mass culture. My mom once had a high school boyfriend in the Seventies that dictated what she could wear, how late she could be out, and how much makeup she could put on.
This douchebag redneck went on to not work in a coal mine or pig farm, but instead ended up coaching a certain Southern football program that recently won the NCAA Championship.
And I think the Tiger Mom appeals to that same sort of moralistic mindset, and I think it falls victim to the same fallacy.
All that discipline he encountered even up through college to be completely gone once he found a job has been sort of disastrous in some ways.
I think this is a good plan, and one I think I'll employ with my own when the time comes.
I've worked with a lot of Asian and Indian doctors who were told at birth what they were going to be, right down to the specialty of field. Without fail, those doctors are disproportionately poor at their duties while also being disproportionately fraudulent in running up a patient's bill. "Success," as they've been engrained, is nothing more than a large income and the frippery that comes along with it: expensive cars, large house, private schools, impressive portfolios, et al.
The fact that they never see their families and are borderline sociopaths never seems to bother them. Me, on the other hand, I enjoy my short work week and seeing my friends and family as much as I like while still living comfortably.
Like I said, it reminds me of the dumb-ass platitudes that passed for instruction from my grandparents generation.
"Working hard is the only way to get ahead."
"There's always someone trying to get what you want, so you have to beat them to it."
"Ambition is the virtue of the successful."
My (former) friend and I would even try to emulate what some South Korean students did (the saying "Pass on 4 fail on 5" was something we tried to drill into our heads) because we thought if we followed that way of being then we'd also be more together people. Now that I'm older, I see that, that kind of lifestyle can be disastrous and I wonder what happened to high school students I went to school with and my envy is pretty much gone. I'm fortunate that my folks emphasized trying hard and being happy.
My uncle, however, seems to believe this line of thinking with my cousin. My uncle grew up a poor Black kid and is now pretty well off but he sees that money=happiness and doesn't allow my cousin, who went to college and got good grades, to just work a simple job. No he has to shoot for something better, something money oriented and now, even though right now he's quite content just working at JC Penny.
I wonder why it is that this way of rearing children isn't connected with the suicides that are widely reported in Asian countries around finals time? I would think that after the first few, it would make educators and parents take a step back and think.
I would totally acquit a kid raised like that who murdered his parents.
I strongly suspect that your reading comprehension has failed you somehow, though I can't figure out exactly where that failure point lies. Suffice it to say that I have no idea where you got the notion that ElJeffe is sharing his parenting burden with anybody other than his childrens' biological mother.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Actually an American kid did do this, but only to his mom. She wanted the perfect family (meaning daughter had straight As, prom queen, homecoming queen, student president, popular. Husband worked a lot of hours, son ...I forget what), and it ultimately led to her son killing her.
He didn't get acquitted though.
...
...
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I kind of assumed he was joking.
Because if he's serious, then yeah, it makes no sense.
edit: See? See? My joke-o-meter is still functioning, yay!
/headslap
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I think Hoz is joking, yo
edit: late to the party. so how about them Bears?
however i do think that there is something to be learned from it. for my generation, at least, greater pressure or structure imposed by parents could have been very productive.
i can't help but look at the anecdotally vast array of Western kids who grew up in the "gifted" programs with good marks and maybe scholarships, who end up never getting pushed and thus never having to push themselves or do anything they aren't immediately interested in, and as a result become listless, unmotivated, uncertain, with little drive or ambition or passion, kids who end up with lots of hobbies and interests but often a lack of completely developed skills or talents.
i see this a lot, in myself and others, and i can't help but wonder if parenting could have been more aggressive. not as far as the Tiger Mom thing though. pushing kids to try new things, and to try them for long enough to develop some idea of aptitude or interest or passion, and instilling a work ethic beyond the pressures of school, etc.
a lot of this can also be attributed to social class, both regarding the money it costs for lessons and a general social awareness from one's own parents and one's peers about what's out there for kids and how best to get them exposed to it.
I dont really think you can instill a work ethic by thrusting activities on someone. Especially when the consequence of failure from adhering to the prescribed parental work ethic is emotional abuse.
The idea is common to both Calvinism and the writings of Meng Tzu.
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This piece made its rounds around Asian-American social circles like wildfire, and it's been fairly amusing hearing all the Taiwanese moms in our circle exclaim,"That's what we tried to do, but we were never THAT bad!"
I was raised in much the same manner - though my mother was nowhere near as tyrannical as Amy Chua, I remember growing up and being fairly certain that my parents hated me. And I'll second what mrt144 said, mostly from personal experience. The transition to college was terrible for me - the utter lack of parental discipline and structure resulted in me feeling lost and unbound in a way that was never the case in high school.
I was lucky enough that my 'rents did an about face halfway through college and suddenly switched to a more openly affectionate style of parenting. We get along amazingly well now, but I have a lot of asian friends that aren't so fortunate.
One of my old college buddies was raised in much the same way, except that article could have basically been written by his mother. Hours of violin lessons and studying. No freedom for socializing. No encouragement, no love. All activities had to be approved by his mother. Even when he started dating in college, his girlfriend had to be approved by mom as well, which really meant that he was only allowed to date . . . you guessed it . . . very traditional Chinese girls. But despite it all, he was a fairly happy-go-lucky dude, a very good man, and a very successful financial professional with an expensive high-rise condo and the whole world ahead of him.
He jumped off a bridge last year. They couldn't revive him at the hospital.
Now correlation doesn't equal causation, and it would be grossly unfair and wrong to attribute his suicide solely to the way he was raised. But there are many stories like this laying dormant in Asian circles, and no one talks about it due to the extreme shame and stigma that suicide carries in this culture. And there is a prevalence of anecdotal stories regarding very "successful" Asians in their late twenties or thirties suddenly committing suicide, people who had everything - high income job, fancy titles, a nice house, marriage with a successful partner, etc.
Why does this happen?
I don't possess any gift for sociological insight and analysis - there are plenty of super smart people on this board that do. But I have a feeling it has to do with how these people feel when they've achieved success by any metric used in standard Asian culture. How do they define themselves at this point? How do they measure their self-worth? I'll bet that there's a high incidence of depression that sets in, and given the Asian stigma that's also attached to mental disorders, I can only imagine how alone they must feel.
Anyways, apologies for the long post.
Tl;dr - I miss my friend.
Edit: I do think that there are many virtues to this style of parenting - it's important to push your children towards a standard of excellence, to not settle for mediocrity when the going gets tough. But it needs to be coupled with love and attention (i.e. no "orbital" parents) and a broad appreciation for what defines "success".
Yeah this, times a hundred. It drives me up the wall when this happens. I mean, it's bad enough do that to an individual- "you're unemployed? Well then, you must be really lazy and stupid!" But now people are trying to do that to our entire society! Blaming widespread social and economic problems on millions of people suddenly losing their moral fibre, and telling everyone to "man up, work harder" is a terrible, terrible idea.
I also believe that this sort of parenting style might be appropriate for a deeply impoverished nation like China is/used to be, but it's really out of place in a modern first world country. Most people growing up in China, until recently, faced a life of extreme poverty. The only way to avoid that trap was to work very, very hard. Prove yourself the best of the best, and get one of the rare, coveted positions at the top. That meant you had to be the number one student at the most prestigious school, because that was your only chance of getting a job that didn't completely suck.
But now, in first world countries, life doesn't have to work like that. You won't be forced into a life of peasant farming if you're a mediocre student. You can still get a decent job. In fact, the correlation between academic success and future earnings is kind of weak. So forcing your kids to train nonstop so that they'll get in to an ivy is just unnecessary.
In some cases, this kind of ultracompetitive parenting can be really bad for society as a whole, even if it benefits your own kid. For example, giving your kid a bunch of SAT test prep classes will substantially improve their score- but it also undermines the whole point of the SAT. And making your kid excel at violin just because it looks good on a college application takes away precious opportunities from kids that would be genuinely interested in becoming a professional musician.
My analogy is that it's like we're all standing in line at a bank. If you know that the bank is about to run of money and shut down, you better do whatever it takes to force your way to the front of the line. Kick, punch, and claw anyone who gets in your way, because that's the only way to survive. But in an organized society where the banks don't fail, that's just being an asshole to everyone else.
A 1st generation American is better able to put aside the downsides of a strict upbringing than a 2nd generation because theyre not able to assimilate and enjoy the full benefits of the new culture.
I resented my parents for forcing me to eat vegetables instead of candy. I heard all the "this spinach will make you strong like Popeye" lines and wasn't impressed, because Popeye was a cartoon character and spinach tasted gross.
Sometimes you have to force kids to do things they don't like because you know better and they're dumbass kids. All the talking in the world wasn't going to make the kid me say "Yay! I totally want to go to the hospital and have some stranger start jabbing needles into me to protect me from some disease I've never even heard, and can't even comprehend the idea of!"
As I recall, the cello is FORBIDDEN. Tiger children are not allowed to play any instruments except piano and violin.
Which is just weird. I mean, the other stuff I kind of get, but how did she decide which instruments were worthy of a tiger mother?
This is true to a degree, but forcing kids to eat spinach with the expectation that it will yield long term appreciation for food or be good at cooking is a huge leap. Theres stuff to this day I wont eat because of the haphazard approach that was taken to preparing it at school when I was 6 (tunafish sandwiches being the biggest). This is the idea behind draconian parenting: "If I force or do X, Y benefit will happen cause hey, look at me."
If I force mrt144 to eat a terrible tunafish sandwich, he will learn to eat things he doesn't like in the future. No, I hate tunafish sandwiches now.