So I'm bored and was musing.... in PvP, immortal/Phoenix would be a LOT more viable if you had a gold expansion. Might be an interesting trick to pull out of the hat occasionally.
There's nothing special about a Gold, you get roughly the same income from it once saturated as you do a saturated blue, it just takes a few less workers to saturate. Terran is an exception because MULEs get even more minerals, but for the other races its just essentially an expansion that gets up and running sooner.
But... that's exactly what makes it attractive and useful in such a scenario? It takes less workers to saturate the base, therefore you receive the maximum income at a much faster rate. In Phoenix/Immortal builds, The really prohibitive feature is the mineral cost of the immortals.
Its not that significant an amount of workers, is my point. Not enough to the point where you're suddenly going to have all these hundreds of extra minerlas.
I'd like to see some math on it. The way I see it, if you need 8 less workers to saturate it (or whatever the number is) that's already 400 minerals you've saved, not even counting the time it would have taken to accrue and build up those workers.
Sorry guys I suck and lost the build order custom game thinger and the build order for Protoss (the only one I will ever need) what are they? I haven't played this game since beta really and I want to get back into it while Day9 holds my hand.
Sorry I got botp.
Fizban140 on
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tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
A gold base doesn't take any fewer workers to saturate per patch. The difference is that a gold returns 40% more minerals and (usually) has two to three less patches. So the worker improvement is whatever that difference is.
Sorry guys I suck and lost the build order custom game thinger and the build order for Protoss (the only one I will ever need) what are they? I haven't played this game since beta really and I want to get back into it while Day9 holds my hand.
Sorry I got botp.
I think you mean YABOT. They spent a few pages arguing about whether it was worth a damn. Personally, I forget everything I train myself to do in YABOT the second I hit a real game. Right back to accumulated noob bad habits.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
Sorry guys I suck and lost the build order custom game thinger and the build order for Protoss (the only one I will ever need) what are they? I haven't played this game since beta really and I want to get back into it while Day9 holds my hand.
Sorry I got botp.
I think you mean YABOT. They spent a few pages arguing about whether it was worth a damn. Personally, I forget everything I train myself to do in YABOT the second I hit a real game. Right back to accumulated noob bad habits.
Yeah I had the same problem, I would get nervous/distracted and make stupid mistakes like forgetting SCVs.
The problem with kelly, glhf, TB, husky, hd and the rest of the casters that people don't really like is that they are not familiar with the game. They might be great people to talk to in real life, but all of them just aren't highly skilled at the game.
Take incontrol, tyler, day9, idra, and artosis. They are all professional gamers that earned their respect.
whip my hair.
wakkawa on
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
that's just silly. there's room for both
there are pro sports casters that never played and are great, and ones that played and are great.
there are pro sports casters that never played and are great, and ones that played and are great.
also ones that played and suck as casters.
Except these casters are making too many mistakes! When I'm watching a stream and catch blatant errors in what they are saying its just silly sometimes .
there are pro sports casters that never played and are great, and ones that played and are great.
also ones that played and suck as casters.
Yeah but the casters who never played are experts on the game, that isn't true at all with these casters that didn't play. They know a little but not that much of high level. I mean I watched TB a few times, he is funny, but I can point out tons of flaws in his casting on strategy and I haven't played since beta.
Fizban140 on
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tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
Well, that might be what the high-level players have a tendency to think, because they seem to feel like you have to provide insightful analysis of every decision made by a player in order to get paid. That's simply not true. It's very rare to have the commentator and color man wrapped up in one bunny-toting package, and of course it's great when you can get that--but people can be good at one or the other.
In fact, I'd much rather listen to a caster with enthusiasm and commitment who knows the basics of what's going on and can draw conclusions from what he sees than a...well, IdrA, who can microanalyze a game down to the drone because of his game knowledge, but would prevent paint from ever drying.
"This game is pretty boring... Grubby should gg out. Yeah, uh... I don't know why Grubby's still in this game. How boring."
*30 minutes later*
"Huh... yeah Grubby sure is winning this game now, go figure."
grubby lost. it just took 30 minutes for him to go from losing to leaving the game
Nope, he definitely won a game 30 minutes after both casters predicted his loss and stopped giving a shit.
You must have one of his losses in mind.
Are you all talking about the same game? I got the impression that the conversation started off about a WC3 game, but I think some people are thinking of his SC2 game vs Sarens at Assembly. He won the latter, and it was definitely not an epic game.
His Corkiness on
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tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
To be fair, for what they do, I find that TB and Husky are perfect commentating some games. Oh no, Totalbiscuit just said wrong. Guess what? I don't give a shit, because he is so damn excited. That's why people love Day 9. His analytical knowledge is the icing on the cake, but people really get into him because he's so frickin excited about the game.
To be a good caster, you need the ability to engage and excite people about the game they are watching. Has anyone here ever tried to watch a cast by Crota? What the fuck is that shit?
To claim that Husky/Total Biscuit/HD are 'terrible casters' is completely ridiculous. If we're really trying to point out a terrible caster, we just have to go and find out where Trus has been hiding.
If all you want to do is get excited while watching a game just start masturbating. Furiously.
Watching husky explode with nerd excitement while calling everything by the wrong name makes me frowny faced.
Gotta learn to not just settle with mediocrity.
wakkawa on
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tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
A successful solo caster needs the following:
- Knowledge of the units and basic openings (any well-read gold player will know this)
- Background knowledge of the players and maps
- Production tab to keep track of key structures
- Camera control hotkey practice
- Good diction and phrasing
- Enthusiasm for events which merit it (battles, sneaky tech plays, genuine surprise)
- Ability to provide patter for events which don't (that interminable 90 seconds between barracks and 4-gate drops, for example)
A duo team covers for each other on all of these points, and can specialize in certain areas (such as build orders and game knowledge). But you can do just fine with two color casters. It will have a different tone, but unless neither has any game sense or has a big misread, it will be fine.
That's how come Starcraft 2 is such an amazing spectator game, as opposed to DOTA or something similar. You don't HAVE to be an expert in the game to look at it and understand what's going on. People with limited knowledge of the deeper game mechanics can put together extremely entertaining commentary.
Have you ever tried to watch someone cast DOTA? It's like having your eyes pulled out of your nose.
If all you want to do is get excited while watching a game just start masturbating. Furiously.
Watching husky explode with nerd excitement while calling everything by the wrong name makes me frowny faced.
Gotta learn to not just settle with mediocrity.
maybe we like different things
edit - it's a good thing they don't 'just shout', then.
that would be weird for everyone!
q: do you think dj wheat is a good caster?
also, calling someone a 'nobody' doesn't imply anything about game knowledge. just for when you make this argument in the future... so you know.
Nobodies was a bad choice. Kelly seems like a very nice person, but she has so much to learn. Hopefully she will
DJwheat is an average caster. He is good as a sideman to ask other people questions. I wouldn't watch him solo cast.
Also after watching husky cast at that mlg (or something) with day9, I never wanted to hear his voice again. I thought he was going to die from exhaustion from screaming so much.
I was watching that game (actually I was there to hold seats for the SC2 games to follow) and their commentary actually made the turn around in the game feel more awesome. I do not follow WC3 but if I hear the commentators make a remark about how the game looks hopeless and then the player turns it completely around, how does this not help your excitement of watching the game?
VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
but do you understand why that's a terrible criticism? them being 'nobodies'? it completely closes off anyone who hasn't been involved in the scene for quite a while and ignores whether they know things or not.
I'm new to the scene and I'd say I know the game pretty well. and I don't dedicate nearly the time these people do.
although I guess you seem to already have judged said people so it doesn't matter
I was watching that game (actually I was there to hold seats for the SC2 games to follow) and their commentary actually made the turn around in the game feel more awesome. I do not follow WC3 but if I hear the commentators make a remark about how the game looks hopeless and then the player turns it completely around, how does this not help your excitement of watching the game?
I feel like I should note that I'm specifically talking about where he was running around with one hero and one town hall in the corner of the map for half an hour, trying to pick off a guy on two or three bases, before gg'ing.
but do you understand why that's a terrible criticism? them being 'nobodies'? it completely closes off anyone who hasn't been involved in the scene for quite a while and ignores whether they know things or not.
I'm new to the scene and I'd say I know the game pretty well. and I don't dedicate nearly the time these people do.
although I guess you seem to already have judged said people so it doesn't matter
How about this then.
People should not be casting if they don't know what they are talking about.
Wait until they are an expert, then give it a crack at casting.
I'm not arguing that lack of knowledge of the game by any means qualifies you to commentate. But the aspect of being able to hype or help the excitement of the crowd should not be lacking either. TB is a great example of this. His voice and energy is able to make nearly anything entertaining.
To be fair, for what they do, I find that TB and Husky are perfect commentating some games. Oh no, Totalbiscuit just said wrong. Guess what? I don't give a shit, because he is so damn excited. That's why people love Day 9. His analytical knowledge is the icing on the cake, but people really get into him because he's so frickin excited about the game.
To be a good caster, you need the ability to engage and excite people about the game they are watching. Has anyone here ever tried to watch a cast by Crota? What the fuck is that shit?
To claim that Husky/Total Biscuit/HD are 'terrible casters' is completely ridiculous. If we're really trying to point out a terrible caster, we just have to go and find out where Trus has been hiding.
Day9 started out as a guy who helped people understand Broodwar matches indepth, so that's why I, personally, really "got into him". His personality and enthusiasm helped a ton, but weren't the main reason I watched most of his stuff.
Plus, his enthusiasm was so different, he didn't just get excited at huge battles and a reaver shot killing 10 probes, he also got excited about positional control and macro; and I feel as though because of him, I learned to get excited about those things too (placing a building down just as you get the resources, getting an overlord just as a I need it, etc.)
Husky, TB, HD are bad casters, but I don't really care so long as they don't end up casting anything big (especially alone). They're kind of like the Klazarts of SC2 IMO.
Half the people you listed have been doing casting since before SC2 came out though. it's not like they are just jumping on a bandwagon when they were on it before the wagon even existed.
last I knew HD was making attempts at stepping up his game.
I'm not arguing that lack of knowledge of the game by any means qualifies you to commentate. But the aspect of being able to hype or help the excitement of the crowd should not be lacking either. TB is a great example of this. His voice and energy is able to make nearly anything entertaining.
Personalities pop up all the time. What gives them staying power involves more than charm.
Ezekiel on
I will throw you on the land and hurl you on the open field. I will let all the birds of the air settle on you and all the beasts of the earth gorge themselves on you. I will spread your flesh on the mountains and fill the valleys with your remains. I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh. - Ezekiel 32: 4-6
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
wakkawa I mostly agree, sorry I'm being sort of assholeish I don't know what came over me. we do have a slight disagreement but it's no big deal.
I'm not arguing that lack of knowledge of the game by any means qualifies you to commentate. But the aspect of being able to hype or help the excitement of the crowd should not be lacking either. TB is a great example of this. His voice and energy is able to make nearly anything entertaining.
Personalities pop up all the time. What gives them staying power involves more than charm.
So we could argue what is more needed, staying power or broad audience appeal. In my previous example I was sitting at the venue at Blizzcon not for what was currently playing(WC3) but waiting for it to finish. I had no interest in the technical details of WC3, but if I hear the commentators call the game as being over and there comes a big turn around it will definitely pique my interest. Again, this is not me saying game ignorance is ok. But you can definitely tell the difference in professors from the ones who are clearly experts in their fields and give dry lectures and those who are also very knowledgeable but care just as much, if not more, about delivery.
I do agree that Day 9 is a starlet in this, he is a great blend of both. It's hardly surprising that you'll find casters that fall on one side or the other. We shouldn't be so quick to denounce someone who is more talented in one aspect over the other.
tuxkamenreally took this picture.Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
Yeah, I just...high-level WC3 is brutal and glacial. I thought the WoW 3v3 matches were terrible because nobody would die, and then the WC3 block started and my expectations were lowered further.
Engage, attaaaaaaaackwhooops scroll back and creep another five minutes.
The problem with kelly, glhf, TB, husky, hd and the rest of the casters that people don't really like is that they are nobodies. They might be great people to talk to in real life, but all of them just aren't good at the game.
Take incontrol, tyler, day9, idra, and artosis. They are all professional gamers that earned their respect. Kelly is just 'olol a girl," and tb is "olol funny accent" They are just jumping on the casting bandwagon.
whip my hair.
Be honest with me guys, am I one of these nobodies who just happened to start casting? :P How many mistakes etc do I make? I'd really like to know!
Posts
I'd like to see some math on it. The way I see it, if you need 8 less workers to saturate it (or whatever the number is) that's already 400 minerals you've saved, not even counting the time it would have taken to accrue and build up those workers.
Sorry I got botp.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
I think you mean YABOT. They spent a few pages arguing about whether it was worth a damn. Personally, I forget everything I train myself to do in YABOT the second I hit a real game. Right back to accumulated noob bad habits.
Yeah I had the same problem, I would get nervous/distracted and make stupid mistakes like forgetting SCVs.
Take incontrol, tyler, day9, idra, and artosis. They are all professional gamers that earned their respect.
whip my hair.
there are pro sports casters that never played and are great, and ones that played and are great.
also ones that played and suck as casters.
Except these casters are making too many mistakes! When I'm watching a stream and catch blatant errors in what they are saying its just silly sometimes
Yeah but the casters who never played are experts on the game, that isn't true at all with these casters that didn't play. They know a little but not that much of high level. I mean I watched TB a few times, he is funny, but I can point out tons of flaws in his casting on strategy and I haven't played since beta.
In fact, I'd much rather listen to a caster with enthusiasm and commitment who knows the basics of what's going on and can draw conclusions from what he sees than a...well, IdrA, who can microanalyze a game down to the drone because of his game knowledge, but would prevent paint from ever drying.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
A lot of new gamers probably don't know how deep day9 was in the pro-scene back in the day... and thus respect him for other reasons.
It's his charisma and professionalism that pwnz noobie viewers.
His deep-knowledge of the game pwnz the more dedicated gamers.
It's not an easy thing to do, either of the above.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
To be a good caster, you need the ability to engage and excite people about the game they are watching. Has anyone here ever tried to watch a cast by Crota? What the fuck is that shit?
To claim that Husky/Total Biscuit/HD are 'terrible casters' is completely ridiculous. If we're really trying to point out a terrible caster, we just have to go and find out where Trus has been hiding.
I mean its not like we're choosing only one person to commentate, we just happen to only know one of the commentators
having said that, I still personally think kellymilkies is wrong for either role
and that is because I can't bear to listen to her
Watching husky explode with nerd excitement while calling everything by the wrong name makes me frowny faced.
Gotta learn to not just settle with mediocrity.
- Knowledge of the units and basic openings (any well-read gold player will know this)
- Background knowledge of the players and maps
- Production tab to keep track of key structures
- Camera control hotkey practice
- Good diction and phrasing
- Enthusiasm for events which merit it (battles, sneaky tech plays, genuine surprise)
- Ability to provide patter for events which don't (that interminable 90 seconds between barracks and 4-gate drops, for example)
A duo team covers for each other on all of these points, and can specialize in certain areas (such as build orders and game knowledge). But you can do just fine with two color casters. It will have a different tone, but unless neither has any game sense or has a big misread, it will be fine.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
All of this is aided by over-eager brits yelling.
I was talking about the game he won in his bo3 with Moon.
I gather his losses played out pretty similarly but I was too bored to watch by then.
then your actual issue isn't what you said in your post
you separated nobodies from pro gamers. you meant to separate people who know the game from people who don't.
I disagree, I find husky and tb at the least to have satisfactory game knowledge and a fun style.
I drew a connection that the good casters tended to be the people that are really good at the game.
Not people that just shout when something is happening.
maybe we like different things
edit - it's a good thing they don't 'just shout', then.
that would be weird for everyone!
q: do you think dj wheat is a good caster?
also, calling someone a 'nobody' doesn't imply anything about game knowledge. just for when you make this argument in the future... so you know.
Have you ever tried to watch someone cast DOTA? It's like having your eyes pulled out of your nose.
Nobodies was a bad choice. Kelly seems like a very nice person, but she has so much to learn. Hopefully she will
DJwheat is an average caster. He is good as a sideman to ask other people questions. I wouldn't watch him solo cast.
Also after watching husky cast at that mlg (or something) with day9, I never wanted to hear his voice again. I thought he was going to die from exhaustion from screaming so much.
I was watching that game (actually I was there to hold seats for the SC2 games to follow) and their commentary actually made the turn around in the game feel more awesome. I do not follow WC3 but if I hear the commentators make a remark about how the game looks hopeless and then the player turns it completely around, how does this not help your excitement of watching the game?
I'm new to the scene and I'd say I know the game pretty well. and I don't dedicate nearly the time these people do.
although I guess you seem to already have judged said people so it doesn't matter
I feel like I should note that I'm specifically talking about where he was running around with one hero and one town hall in the corner of the map for half an hour, trying to pick off a guy on two or three bases, before gg'ing.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
How about this then.
People should not be casting if they don't know what they are talking about.
Wait until they are an expert, then give it a crack at casting.
Until then they are just gonna look a fool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKLYPSR2y_0
Day9 started out as a guy who helped people understand Broodwar matches indepth, so that's why I, personally, really "got into him". His personality and enthusiasm helped a ton, but weren't the main reason I watched most of his stuff.
Plus, his enthusiasm was so different, he didn't just get excited at huge battles and a reaver shot killing 10 probes, he also got excited about positional control and macro; and I feel as though because of him, I learned to get excited about those things too (placing a building down just as you get the resources, getting an overlord just as a I need it, etc.)
Husky, TB, HD are bad casters, but I don't really care so long as they don't end up casting anything big (especially alone). They're kind of like the Klazarts of SC2 IMO.
last I knew HD was making attempts at stepping up his game.
Personalities pop up all the time. What gives them staying power involves more than charm.
also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0ClFparAaQ&feature=player_embedded
So looking at the Blizzcon WC3 brackets, Moon ended up in the losers bracket finals against Infi.
Lost the first game, second game went on so long that they called it a draw and gave the series to Infi out of necessity.
Don't watch this.
EDIT: Fuck you Moon, this isn't War3.
So we could argue what is more needed, staying power or broad audience appeal. In my previous example I was sitting at the venue at Blizzcon not for what was currently playing(WC3) but waiting for it to finish. I had no interest in the technical details of WC3, but if I hear the commentators call the game as being over and there comes a big turn around it will definitely pique my interest. Again, this is not me saying game ignorance is ok. But you can definitely tell the difference in professors from the ones who are clearly experts in their fields and give dry lectures and those who are also very knowledgeable but care just as much, if not more, about delivery.
I do agree that Day 9 is a starlet in this, he is a great blend of both. It's hardly surprising that you'll find casters that fall on one side or the other. We shouldn't be so quick to denounce someone who is more talented in one aspect over the other.
Engage, attaaaaaaaackwhooops scroll back and creep another five minutes.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Yes! Or there will be, when I get off my ass and write a little script that spits out an image, depending on whether your own3D stream is live.
Be honest with me guys, am I one of these nobodies who just happened to start casting? :P How many mistakes etc do I make? I'd really like to know!