Sorry mate, that's definitely a fake hotline run by antichoicers, not even the government one - more here (PDF link), and as soon as you google the name of the service you find all sorts of complaints about their conduct.
There are legit, no bullshit repro health clinics around, but it depends on your location. If you let me know, I can help look for you.
edit: erm, aside from anything else, if she is indeed knocked up, that job's probably not going to last long anyway.
The Cat on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, ModeratorMod Emeritus
edited February 2011
I'm glad to hear my assessment was premature, because man.
Don't lie. Don't tell her you're going to do something when you won't. That's never a good answer.
Are you a terrible person? I don't know about terrible. I think if it's possible you should try to be there for the birth, but if you feel like you'll be in danger by going there, well.. I would want a ton of reassurance about her father or I'm not sure I'd do it. Maybe I would, I don't know, I'm kind of crazy about these things. But this is you.
If you don't have any money right now then you don't, but would you consider helping out some when you do? Even if it's just a small amount, it probably wouldn't take too much to help her be more comfortable if cost of living is lower there. You're asking for a judgment on your character by strangers, here... I don't know how many are going to tell you "yeah, it's totally cool if you want to leave this girl alone completely to support a person whose creation you are half responsible for". Personally, I don't know about terrible, but I don't exactly think it makes you great.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
What I need to know is if I'm a terrible person if I refuse to offer financial or upbringing support of any kind. I have trouble paying the upkeep of my car and studies, let alone child support. I suppose this is where I need to seek legal advice if things continue. The moral duty is what's tearing me up inside.
Yes, it would make you an awful and selfish person. Are you planning on making a career out of "poor student"? I assume the point of your studies is that, sometime in the future, you will have a job where you earn money? Your friend's life has changed and so has yours.
What I need to know is if I'm a terrible person if I refuse to offer financial or upbringing support of any kind.[/B] I have trouble paying the upkeep of my car and studies, let alone child support. I suppose this is where I need to seek legal advice if things continue. The moral duty is what's tearing me up inside.
What's clear to me is that I need professional help. What kind of professional should I be looking for, a psychologist? Psychiatrist? Or some other kind of counsellor? Can anyone recommend me someone I can talk to as some kind of lifeline? I feel like I'm all alone and desperately need someone in person I can talk to about this.
Regarding your first question. Yes. I understand that you are poor, but are you so poor that you can't afford phone calls? Your friend is going to continue to need emotional support for the next 18 years, your kid is probably going to want to meet you/get to know you. You are a terrible person if you aren't willing to provide the emotional component of upbringing support. For monetary support, how long until you graduate? I get that you have money trouble right now, but are you going to graduate in the foreseeable future? Hell, are you going to graduate in the next 18 years? Is there any reason you can't send her money after you get a job?
A therapist or a Psychologist is going to be who you want to look for to talk about this sort of stuff. You can probably see one for free through your university (at least in the US you can). I would recommend a university counselor as they probably wouldn't be able to keep their job if they were too judgmental about this sort of stuff. If you don't go through your university, straight up ask the person before you go see them how they feel about premarital sex and abortion, you don't need somebody judging you for your actions.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
Regarding abortion: Safe, clinical abortion is decidedly impossible. The two problems with abortion in Australia is
a) that she'd need to take at least two weeks off her (still new) job, which wouldn't be possible without sacrificing the job. She isn't willing to sacrifice this job.
b) She'd need to prove she has the finances to back the surgery, the cost of living, and the plane ticket(probably in the vicinity of 3-4 grand AUD). Neither of us have that kind of money (we're both poor. Her father is rich by Indonesian standards, but he can't know about this yet) though I am being paid soon which should barely cover that. Doesn't help problem a, though.
She said she's taking some period regulation pills called EM Kapsul. She doesn't expect it to work, but she'll know in about a week. If that doesn't work she's set on trying the massage thing if she decides to go the abortion route.
Whatever this massage abortion is it sounds terrible. Get yourself to a real pregnancy crisis center as soon as possible and get some real advice. She can't go so you'll have to. Calling some fake crisis line is just not enough. Asking us internet folks is not enough. Get some real advice, including the likely consequences for whatever this massage abortion is. I'd guess it involves pounding on the stomach until she miscarries, which sounds like a terrible idea.
She's going to lose the job anyway when she needs to take time off for the birth, surely? A job is nothing compared to the rest of her life.
As for the finances, maybe you can borrow money - perhaps from your parents if you confess. Maybe she can sell jewelry. The cost of the abortion would be nothing compared to raising the child.
Also you should pay child support if she needs it. It's the moral thing to do, even though I doubt you can be legally forced to pay. Pay what you can afford. If thats $5 a week now, then that's what you can afford. You can pay more when you are settled in a real job.
You have every right to question the paternity if this child. She said she wasn't pregnant and now she's saying she is. Damn straight you get a paternity test before giving her money. I don't care if that upsets her, she lied to you about being pregnant once and you need to find out if it's yours.
If it is yours you do have to help support it monetarily. Send what you can even if it's not much. As for being there physically, she's refusing adoption but you have every right to disagree with this decision and do not have to be involved outside of sending a check regularly. I don't care if that isn't the touchy feely answer but to be frank you don't have to be involved with this kid outside of support if you don't want to and I think that's fine.
VisionOfClarity on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Am I the only one who is questioning the idea of him being obligated to provide financial support when she (who owns a Mercedes) seems to be fine moneywise, when he is not? Unless there are legal obligations (and between two countries like this I very much doubt there is), I'm not agreeing with this idea of being required to provide money at all. This is assuming its his, of course.
By all means he's definitely obliged (morally) to offer any sort of emotional support that is needed, but if there are morals that require someone not in a position to spare much money to give money to someone who seems to be perfectly fine financially...thats a pretty stupid set of morals. Maybe once he is in a position to offer more financial help if necessary that's something that can be looked at down the road, but I do not see any which way he is obliged to provide financial assistance to someone who does not appear to need it when he cannot really afford to give it.
Whatever this massage abortion is it sounds terrible. Get yourself to a real pregnancy crisis center as soon as possible and get some real advice. She can't go so you'll have to. Calling some fake crisis line is just not enough. Asking us internet folks is not enough. Get some real advice, including the likely consequences for whatever this massage abortion is. I'd guess it involves pounding on the stomach until she miscarries, which sounds like a terrible idea.
Ummm.... pregnancy crisis centers are the places set up by religious groups to trick people out of getting abortions. They lie about everything, set up next door to real clinics to try and get their patients by mistake and promise women abortions but just string them out with delaying tactics (their pregnancy tests take a week to come back from the lab, most of them will make you have two ultrasounds a week apart to verify dating) until the woman is too far along for abortion to be a legal option.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
Am I the only one who is questioning the idea of him being obligated to provide financial support when she (who owns a Mercedes) seems to be fine moneywise, when he is not? Unless there are legal obligations (and between two countries like this I very much doubt there is), I'm not agreeing with this idea of being required to provide money at all. This is assuming its his, of course.
By all means he's definitely obliged (morally) to offer any sort of emotional support that is needed, but if there are morals that require someone not in a position to spare much money to give money to someone who seems to be perfectly fine financially...thats a pretty stupid set of morals. Maybe once he is in a position to offer more financial help if necessary that's something that can be looked at down the road, but I do not see any which way he is obliged to provide financial assistance to someone who does not appear to need it when he cannot really afford to give it.
The money isn't for her, its for the kid. Assuming parentage, and all that of course, but still, this attitude is pretty awful. Not as awful as 'omg she's psychotic for being in a third world country and taking out her frustrations on someone over the phone', but still. Not ok.
honestly, I'm pro-choice as all hell, but kids aren't really the massive deal a lot of people make them out to be. Don't hold them upside down, feed them, hug them, find a half decent school and buy them shoes. Its a doable thing, even long-distance, even when you're not well off.
Am I the only one who is questioning the idea of him being obligated to provide financial support when she (who owns a Mercedes) seems to be fine moneywise, when he is not? Unless there are legal obligations (and between two countries like this I very much doubt there is), I'm not agreeing with this idea of being required to provide money at all. This is assuming its his, of course.
By all means he's definitely obliged (morally) to offer any sort of emotional support that is needed, but if there are morals that require someone not in a position to spare much money to give money to someone who seems to be perfectly fine financially...thats a pretty stupid set of morals. Maybe once he is in a position to offer more financial help if necessary that's something that can be looked at down the road, but I do not see any which way he is obliged to provide financial assistance to someone who does not appear to need it when he cannot really afford to give it.
I question it too. Is he a jerk? Yeah probably. But unless there's a fiscal and easy way for him to identify the validity of her claims, I give it the same time and thought that I would give the prince of Nigeria telling me he wants to give me billions in USD.
I can't empathize on what it's like to be a woman with a baby, so, I can't really give advice on that part. This entire thing sounded fishy from the get go and I'm hazarding a guess that our uterine brethren are clouding their judgment because being pregnant without financial and emotional support can be fucking devastating and unnerving.
Do I think she's pregnant? No. Do I think she's stringing this along to extort money from this guy? Yeah. This whole thing seems entirely off, and it seems like an easy process to extort money out of a foreign guy. I'd question everything because this is your fucking life on the line.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
But still, kids need both physical support (which money provides) and emotional support (parenting). He is in a position to provide the latter, and not really in a position to provide the former, while she seems to be more than capable of providing the former.
If he has to make huge sacrifices to provide money to a child when the mother is driving around in a Mercedes, he's going to have a huge amount of resentment built up towards her and potentially towards the kid, and long-term, thats going to poison the relationship. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't buy things for the kid like gifts and things like that, thats definitely something to do, but a regular (or non-regular) payment to the mother for the kid seems like a bad idea.
You can say "well he done fucked up and he needs to not let that resentment build up because its not the kid's fault he's an idiot" and that may be true but unfortunately human brains don't usually work that way.
So how should the OP go about determining that there really is a kid, and if so that its his? I think we can all agree that some things haven't been handled as tactfully as they should've been, but all the discussion about morals and obligations here could be rendered moot if it turns out that this is a scam.
Ummm.... pregnancy crisis centers are the places set up by religious groups to trick people out of getting abortions. They lie about everything, set up next door to real clinics to try and get their patients by mistake and promise women abortions but just string them out with delaying tactics (their pregnancy tests take a week to come back from the lab, most of them will make you have two ultrasounds a week apart to verify dating) until the woman is too far along for abortion to be a legal option.
Well, what's a real one called, then? I mean, a real real family planning clinic? I'm not Australian. The problem is he called an anti-abortion line first, got some terrible advice, and doesn't seem interested in going to a real family planning clinic to get some real advice, especially about the risks of this dubious sounding "massage abortion", which sounds absurdly dangerous to me.
So how should the OP go about determining that there really is a kid, and if so that its his? I think we can all agree that some things haven't been handled as tactfully as they should've been, but all the discussion about morals and obligations here could be rendered moot if it turns out that this is a scam.
It doesn't sound like a scam to me, but surely the best way is waiting for the kid to be born and then doing a DNA test. Not asking her to do a DNA test, but getting her to send him a swab from the kid and then he can have the test done himself. I don't see any way that could be faked.
So how should the OP go about determining that there really is a kid, and if so that its his? I think we can all agree that some things haven't been handled as tactfully as they should've been, but all the discussion about morals and obligations here could be rendered moot if it turns out that this is a scam.
It doesn't sound like a scam to me, but surely the best way is waiting for the kid to be born and then doing a DNA test. Not asking her to do a DNA test, but getting her to send him a swab from the kid and then he can have the test done himself. I don't see any way that could be faked.
Yeah this.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Ummm.... pregnancy crisis centers are the places set up by religious groups to trick people out of getting abortions. They lie about everything, set up next door to real clinics to try and get their patients by mistake and promise women abortions but just string them out with delaying tactics (their pregnancy tests take a week to come back from the lab, most of them will make you have two ultrasounds a week apart to verify dating) until the woman is too far along for abortion to be a legal option.
Well, what's a real one called, then? I mean, a real real family planning clinic? I'm not Australian. The problem is he called an anti-abortion line first, got some terrible advice, and doesn't seem interested in going to a real family planning clinic to get some real advice, especially about the risks of this dubious sounding "massage abortion", which sounds absurdly dangerous to me.
A family planning clinic.
I'm not australian either, crisis pregnancy centers are a problem in the US as well.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
Am I the only one who is questioning the idea of him being obligated to provide financial support when she (who owns a Mercedes) seems to be fine moneywise, when he is not? Unless there are legal obligations (and between two countries like this I very much doubt there is), I'm not agreeing with this idea of being required to provide money at all. This is assuming its his, of course.
By all means he's definitely obliged (morally) to offer any sort of emotional support that is needed, but if there are morals that require someone not in a position to spare much money to give money to someone who seems to be perfectly fine financially...thats a pretty stupid set of morals. Maybe once he is in a position to offer more financial help if necessary that's something that can be looked at down the road, but I do not see any which way he is obliged to provide financial assistance to someone who does not appear to need it when he cannot really afford to give it.
I question it too. Is he a jerk? Yeah probably. But unless there's a fiscal and easy way for him to identify the validity of her claims, I give it the same time and thought that I would give the prince of Nigeria telling me he wants to give me billions in USD.
I can't empathize on what it's like to be a woman with a baby, so, I can't really give advice on that part. This entire thing sounded fishy from the get go and I'm hazarding a guess that our uterine brethren are clouding their judgment because being pregnant without financial and emotional support can be fucking devastating and unnerving.
Do I think she's pregnant? No. Do I think she's stringing this along to extort money from this guy? Yeah. This whole thing seems entirely off, and it seems like an easy process to extort money out of a foreign guy. I'd question everything because this is your fucking life on the line.
I don't get how you guys think this is a scam. She hasn't asked him for any money yet, she has asked him if he would support their child after it is born and wants his support during the birth. I'm curious how you guys think she is going to fake giving birth with the OP watching. I get that it theoretically could be someone else's kid, but not how she could fake giving birth while the OP watches.
EDIT: If you think her reactions have been fishy, what would you consider a normal reaction to finding out that you are pregnant while living in a country where abortion is illegal and with a father who is very religious when the person you had sex with lives in a different country?
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I don't think she's stringing him along with a fake pregnancy, but the possibility remains that its not his kid. Perhaps the other guy is being more difficult so she's trying to stick the OP with the kid instead.
Regardless, EVEN IF it IS his kid, I still don't think he's under any moral obligation to provide financial support when she's perfectly well off and he is not. Be there emotionally for the kid, sure, but I don't see how he's morally obliged to provide money that he doesn't really have when she's driving around in a Merc. Down the line, when he has a job, a stable income, and the means to provide support, by all means yes, but until then no sensible moral should be compelling him to do anything.
If there's legal obligations to do so, thats another story, of course.
It's typical that they lead you into it with a scam, they don't often ask you to send money right away. Then again I've never been in that situation so it is hard to say. Like I said, something just doesn't feel right, and that's usually a telltale sign that you might be dealing with a scam.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
0
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, ModeratorMod Emeritus
edited February 2011
So I was curious about this "massage abortion" business... For those who are interested but lacking the time to look it up, everything I'm reading points to the procedure looking something like this:
1) Go to a local midwife equvalent
2) Give midwife X sum of money
3) Lie down while said midwife painfully hits, squeezes, pinches, and probes with the aim of pulverizing the fetus
4) HOPEFULLY after all that the abortion actually works, because if it doesn't you end up with a very, very damaged baby who suffers who-knows-what-kind of permanent deformities or defects.
I would not wish that on anyone, and I certainly wouldn't encourage it.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
So I was curious about this "massage abortion" business... For those who are interested but lacking the time to look it up, everything I'm reading points to the procedure looking something like this:
1) Go to a local midwife equvalent
2) Give midwife X sum of money
3) Lie down while said midwife painfully hits, squeezes, pinches, and probes with the aim of pulverizing the fetus
4) HOPEFULLY after all that the abortion actually works, because if it doesn't you end up with a very, very damaged baby who suffers who-knows-what-kind of permanent deformities or defects.
I would not wish that on anyone, and I certainly wouldn't encourage it.
That is downright horrifying.
But apparently widely practiced in Myanmar, Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Indonesia!
Rikushix on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, ModeratorMod Emeritus
edited February 2011
Well, and add to that the risk of incomplete expulsion, infection that would probably go untreated for too long, and potential damage to the reproductive system itself... it just sounds like a terrible idea and everything this girl is worried about rolled into one neat and tidy ball of danger.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
What I need to know is if I'm a terrible person if I refuse to offer financial or upbringing support of any kind. I have trouble paying the upkeep of my car and studies, let alone child support. I suppose this is where I need to seek legal advice if things continue. The moral duty is what's tearing me up inside.
Yes, it would make you an awful and selfish person. Are you planning on making a career out of "poor student"? I assume the point of your studies is that, sometime in the future, you will have a job where you earn money? Your friend's life has changed and so has yours.
Speaking as a father (now of three) who discarded college and "life plans" to be a man and take care of his responsibilities: yeah, it pretty much does make you a lowlife bastard. It sounds to me like you already know the answer to this, though. If you didn't, all the stuff you're thinking about wouldn't bother you.
You have to face this, mate: your old life is gone. It will never return, and you will not ever forget about this. IF she has the child, you'll always know your son or daughter is out there in the world, and if she doesn't, you'll still have lived through all of this and you'll have to face up to how you behaved and what it says about you as a person. If you don't tell your parents, you'll always know that deep down you're a cowardly liar, and if you do, their opinion of you is definitely going to change somehow or other. If it helps at all, I promise you that with dedication and effort, you can still have a great life and achieve your goals. Having a child changes the equation but it doesn't ruin everything forever. Would I have preferred to plan everything out instead of doing it like we did? Absolutely. Would I go back and change it if I had a choice? My oldest daughter is 15... how could I wish her out of existence? If someone offered, I'd refuse in an instant.
You've got choices to make, but none of them are "I choose to make this all go away". Your old life is gone, your old you is gone. It's time to be certain you can live with your decisions now and forever, because you cannot avoid doing something.
Just be sure you can stand to look at yourself in the mirror.
For goodness sake people. Trying to bully him into raising a child he wants nothing to do with is not the answer. You don't think children know when they're not wanted and are being seen out of obligation only? He wants the child put up for adoption where it can be adopted by people who want it. Just because she insists on keeping it that doesn't mean he has to raise a child he does not want.
We had a thread about this not long ago where it was reversed. The girl didn't want to raise it and the guy did. When the question of her role came up people made it pretty clear that if he wanted to keep it he should not expect her to want to raise it since she preferred adoption. I don't get why now that the genders are different in this thread that he has to raise this child whether he likes it or not.
VisionOfClarity on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, ModeratorMod Emeritus
edited February 2011
That was what the guy should have expected, yes. Would I have urged the mother to at least keep in contact and financially support her child if I'd had the chance? Absolutely. Was she required to? No.
If this girl were making this thread, people would say "Don't rely on Mr. Maturity to be there for you emotionally to help you raise this baby, because it sounds like he doesn't want to." Because we're talking to the guy who doesn't want it, people are saying "If you don't have to, and you think you might have any regrets at all, don't be that guy." This is a case where the two threads do not actually conflict.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
I don't think we should all get too worried about whether the OP should be judged or not for paying child support or not, because if we all get too judging he might not read the important bit of the thread about the "massage abortion" technique being absurdly dangerous. If he doesn't read the thread and relay this info, a woman's life or health may be in danger. "Massage" sounds gentle but a quick google reveals the technique is very dangerous and painful.
Uhm this girl was apparently pregnant and got an abortion LAST YEAR. She's not some pristine chapel of purity. Questioning paternity sucks, but I think it was a damn fine move. She doesn't have the best track record. I'm sure she's hurt and has a right to be by the comments but logically, she's been there before less than 12 months ago, unprotected, and DID IT AGAIN. I am terrified of getting pregnant unplanned personally, she doesn't seem to give a damn even with a warning.
I agree that you're not going to be able to force her to do anything, and I recommend staying as calm as possible and waiting for some further results. Even if you have to talk to her dad, have someone there to support you at the time, and make it clear that sex isn't a one way street, and that you outlined some options and his daughter chose one of those options to pursue, he should be talking to her about that, not you.
For goodness sake people. Trying to bully him into raising a child he wants nothing to do with is not the answer.
Your premise is false because it assumes there is a possible future where he gets what he wants, and he fundamentally cannot. Whether the mother aborts or not, whether he helps raise the child or not, whether they ever meet or he becomes the perfect father, it's no longer possible for the OP to have have nothing to do with this child. All possible futures for the child include him, even ones where he is a completely unknown quantity to the child. All his possible futures include the existence of the child, whether he has any contact or not. Even if she aborts, he's still going to be changed by this experience and how he handled it.
For the OP, the time for thinking about what he wanted is past - now is the time for thinking about what he will do in light the of consequences of the choices he made.
I don't think we should all get too worried about whether the OP should be judged or not for paying child support or not, because if we all get too judging he might not read the important bit of the thread about the "massage abortion" technique being absurdly dangerous. If he doesn't read the thread and relay this info, a woman's life or health may be in danger. "Massage" sounds gentle but a quick google reveals the technique is very dangerous and painful.
If he abandons the mother, wouldn't you figure she's more likely to go this route?
spool32 on
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, ModeratorMod Emeritus
edited February 2011
Argh. I don't know if guilt is the appropriate response here. You have so much more information about this girl than we do. I think the bottom line is that you have to figure out what you will feel awful about doing later, and then not do that. Unfortunately I'm not sure that what that is won't change down the road. I think you're more likely to regret doing nothing than staying there for her, emotionally at least.
If you like, you can always ask for a paternity test down the road, before you give her any money. For now, maybe you can think of her as your good friend who is having a baby and who is someone you want to be there for. She's not asking for anything right now, so what's the harm in seeing where things go?
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
0
GalFridayCommunity and Social Media ManagerNovatoRegistered Userregular
What I need to know is if I'm a terrible person if I refuse to offer financial or upbringing support of any kind. I have trouble paying the upkeep of my car and studies, let alone child support. I suppose this is where I need to seek legal advice if things continue. The moral duty is what's tearing me up inside.
The other problem is my own parents. They're fairly fundamentalist catholics themselves (I'm atheist) and they would flip their shit if they found out about this. Is it even possible to keep this a secret from them forever?
What's clear to me is that I need professional help. What kind of professional should I be looking for, a psychologist? Psychiatrist? Or some other kind of counsellor? Can anyone recommend me someone I can talk to as some kind of lifeline? I feel like I'm all alone and desperately need someone in person I can talk to about this.
I think that you have answered your own question here, you are already feeling guilty for not offering financial or upbringing support; so there is a part of you that rejects the idea of cutting all ties. I think that this is a normal response.
To start from the beginning; stop trying to help her get an abortion. From what you say about her she does not want one, is worried about the health risks, and cannot handle it emotionally or psychologically. I do not know this woman, and perhaps I am reading your description of her incorrectly, but from what you have posted she seems very conflicted and the last thing you want to do is put yourself in a position in which she says you forced her hand in aborting her pregnancy. What I have noticed is that, from your description, she seems more afraid of abortion than of raising the child so it seems that her mind is made up. As tough as it may be, you will have to accept this. I am not trying to come off as preachy here, but she is already at least two months along in this pregnancy, by the time anything was setup for her she would be likely entering the second trimester... I think it is time for you to sop looking at abortion as an option because I truly believe (again simply from gleaning from your own words about this woman) that she never wanted to terminate this pregnancy and has no intention of doing so unless she feels pressured into it. I may go as far as to say that she is minimally conflicted, that she wants to keep the pregnancy but is afraid of the consequences so wants someone to tell her what to do; you are not the person to do this. Especially if you plan to cut any ties with the potential child. Someone unbiased should be helping her, if anyone.
Now that we are passed the "should I help her find a back alley abortionist" question (again the answer is resoundly "no", it is a danger to her mental and physical well being) we can move on to the "Do I need to 'man up'?" question. I think that you would be unhappy if you did not become involved with this child. There are some people that do not need to be involved with their offspring, but you seem very conflicted about your potential role as parent. You are guilt ridden already and we still don't know for sure if the woman is pregnant. If you are already agonizing over the possibility of perhaps not being a part of your biological child's life then I do not think a psychiatrist will help. These are personal morals and values kicking in and a psychiatrist is not there to re-wire you. You are whom you are. Some part of you wants to be involved, that is why you find yourself consistently asking for permission to cut ties; you want someone to tell you it is okay because you do not think it is okay.
That is not how this works.
You need to decide for yourself, waiting for someone to tell you that what you are doing is alright will only placate you for that moment. If you do not want to be a part of this potential child's life then you need to come to terms with that on your own, rationalize it so that you can live with it based on your own thoughts and feelings; years from now the last thing you want is to be sitting there feeling conflicted with nothing but "But the PAX forums told me it was okay" to fall back on. I am not telling you what to do in terms of whether or not you need to be there for this child; if you are completely against being an active part of this child's life it could very well be argued that it is in the child's best interest for you to not take part in its upbringing, to allow the mother to find a new mate and provide that child with a stable environment, however it is also possible that you are more scared of your parents and her father than you are of becoming a parent yourself.
Re-access the situation. What exactly is frightening to you? Can you work out these fears? Start by opening, not closing, communication lines. If this woman is pregnant, and is having your child it is time to stop worrying about what her father will say or what your parents will say; the only thing that matters is what you and she think and feel both separately from one another and as a pair of people biologically linked to one another.
I am not a professional, but I have helped friends that have been in the same position as the woman that you slept with. Some of them continued the pregnancy, some of them did not; I feel that these choices were best left to them.... I do not, under any circumstances, want to seem like I have a better grasp of the situation than you do, or that I know better than you do. I am just a new set of eyes giving the best advice that I can.... all of this is tough to deal with and I do not envy you.
GalFriday on
@Ga1Friday is the twitter account I use to talk about everyday things. Sometimes work things. Lots of work things.
Holy shit Gal, that is some excellent poast. Take it to heart OP, it is right on the money.
I absolutely agree with the part about psychiatrists, but as an add, wanted to mention that counsellours, a different breed entirely, are more of the 'lets talk about your life' kind of mental health people, and if you don't have anyone you feel you can go to, they make an excellent resource. It can help a lot to get another perspective in real life, increasing awareness and understanding about your reactions and intentions, and helping to reduce the fear that comes with facing the unknown.
I'd definitely second Sarcastro on counseling. Sometimes it really helps to talk all of your thoughts and feelings out with a non-involved third party. Counselors have seen similar situations so many times, they can be a real help in bringing you back to earth and helping you find out what the "right" thing for you is. Alternatively, writing it all down sometimes helps get the weight off your back so you can think clearly. Forums could work for that too
Don't panic about whether you're doing the right thing or not. What you decide now is not necessarily set in stone for the rest of your life. Really the most important thing is to keep an open dialogue with this girl and to be honest to her and yourself. Lots of things can happen between now and when she has the baby and in the years afterward. Having survived my 20s miraculously in one piece, I can tell you that life is pretty bonkers and changes incredibly fast. Who knows - you guys could grow closer together, or you may just go your separate ways.
Also - parents can be surprising. I've had to confide some of my own dumb screwups to my parents, and was astonished to find that they did not get angry with me. It depends on your relationship with them, but they could be very supportive.
Last thing! I know nothing about her, but she is 25, has been through this before and has dealt with the feelings of being a potential parent, and she may be mature enough (albeit emotionally confused at the moment) where she's ready to be a single parent. I know guys feel a "moral" responsibility to help the woman, and yes, the woman does bear the most during the pregnancy. But, speaking as a woman, I actually find it a little insulting that others think we need a man's support (financial at least) to raise a child. This girl may meet someone else who will love the child as his own. She may have a supporting family who will help - she may actually want to do it by herself, anyway. Let her make that decision. I think your only responsibility is to be available to her. We girls like someone who can listen - you don't have to fix our problems, and oftentimes we're not looking for an answer - we just need to talk.
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Sorry mate, that's definitely a fake hotline run by antichoicers, not even the government one - more here (PDF link), and as soon as you google the name of the service you find all sorts of complaints about their conduct.
Anyway, the maybe-dodgy-sometimes-depending-on-funding one that's actually run by the government is here - http://www.health.gov.au/pregnancyhelpline
There are legit, no bullshit repro health clinics around, but it depends on your location. If you let me know, I can help look for you.
edit: erm, aside from anything else, if she is indeed knocked up, that job's probably not going to last long anyway.
Don't lie. Don't tell her you're going to do something when you won't. That's never a good answer.
Are you a terrible person? I don't know about terrible. I think if it's possible you should try to be there for the birth, but if you feel like you'll be in danger by going there, well.. I would want a ton of reassurance about her father or I'm not sure I'd do it. Maybe I would, I don't know, I'm kind of crazy about these things. But this is you.
If you don't have any money right now then you don't, but would you consider helping out some when you do? Even if it's just a small amount, it probably wouldn't take too much to help her be more comfortable if cost of living is lower there. You're asking for a judgment on your character by strangers, here... I don't know how many are going to tell you "yeah, it's totally cool if you want to leave this girl alone completely to support a person whose creation you are half responsible for". Personally, I don't know about terrible, but I don't exactly think it makes you great.
Yes, it would make you an awful and selfish person. Are you planning on making a career out of "poor student"? I assume the point of your studies is that, sometime in the future, you will have a job where you earn money? Your friend's life has changed and so has yours.
Regarding your first question. Yes. I understand that you are poor, but are you so poor that you can't afford phone calls? Your friend is going to continue to need emotional support for the next 18 years, your kid is probably going to want to meet you/get to know you. You are a terrible person if you aren't willing to provide the emotional component of upbringing support. For monetary support, how long until you graduate? I get that you have money trouble right now, but are you going to graduate in the foreseeable future? Hell, are you going to graduate in the next 18 years? Is there any reason you can't send her money after you get a job?
A therapist or a Psychologist is going to be who you want to look for to talk about this sort of stuff. You can probably see one for free through your university (at least in the US you can). I would recommend a university counselor as they probably wouldn't be able to keep their job if they were too judgmental about this sort of stuff. If you don't go through your university, straight up ask the person before you go see them how they feel about premarital sex and abortion, you don't need somebody judging you for your actions.
Whatever this massage abortion is it sounds terrible. Get yourself to a real pregnancy crisis center as soon as possible and get some real advice. She can't go so you'll have to. Calling some fake crisis line is just not enough. Asking us internet folks is not enough. Get some real advice, including the likely consequences for whatever this massage abortion is. I'd guess it involves pounding on the stomach until she miscarries, which sounds like a terrible idea.
She's going to lose the job anyway when she needs to take time off for the birth, surely? A job is nothing compared to the rest of her life.
As for the finances, maybe you can borrow money - perhaps from your parents if you confess. Maybe she can sell jewelry. The cost of the abortion would be nothing compared to raising the child.
Also you should pay child support if she needs it. It's the moral thing to do, even though I doubt you can be legally forced to pay. Pay what you can afford. If thats $5 a week now, then that's what you can afford. You can pay more when you are settled in a real job.
If it is yours you do have to help support it monetarily. Send what you can even if it's not much. As for being there physically, she's refusing adoption but you have every right to disagree with this decision and do not have to be involved outside of sending a check regularly. I don't care if that isn't the touchy feely answer but to be frank you don't have to be involved with this kid outside of support if you don't want to and I think that's fine.
By all means he's definitely obliged (morally) to offer any sort of emotional support that is needed, but if there are morals that require someone not in a position to spare much money to give money to someone who seems to be perfectly fine financially...thats a pretty stupid set of morals. Maybe once he is in a position to offer more financial help if necessary that's something that can be looked at down the road, but I do not see any which way he is obliged to provide financial assistance to someone who does not appear to need it when he cannot really afford to give it.
Ummm.... pregnancy crisis centers are the places set up by religious groups to trick people out of getting abortions. They lie about everything, set up next door to real clinics to try and get their patients by mistake and promise women abortions but just string them out with delaying tactics (their pregnancy tests take a week to come back from the lab, most of them will make you have two ultrasounds a week apart to verify dating) until the woman is too far along for abortion to be a legal option.
The money isn't for her, its for the kid. Assuming parentage, and all that of course, but still, this attitude is pretty awful. Not as awful as 'omg she's psychotic for being in a third world country and taking out her frustrations on someone over the phone', but still. Not ok.
honestly, I'm pro-choice as all hell, but kids aren't really the massive deal a lot of people make them out to be. Don't hold them upside down, feed them, hug them, find a half decent school and buy them shoes. Its a doable thing, even long-distance, even when you're not well off.
I question it too. Is he a jerk? Yeah probably. But unless there's a fiscal and easy way for him to identify the validity of her claims, I give it the same time and thought that I would give the prince of Nigeria telling me he wants to give me billions in USD.
I can't empathize on what it's like to be a woman with a baby, so, I can't really give advice on that part. This entire thing sounded fishy from the get go and I'm hazarding a guess that our uterine brethren are clouding their judgment because being pregnant without financial and emotional support can be fucking devastating and unnerving.
Do I think she's pregnant? No. Do I think she's stringing this along to extort money from this guy? Yeah. This whole thing seems entirely off, and it seems like an easy process to extort money out of a foreign guy. I'd question everything because this is your fucking life on the line.
If he has to make huge sacrifices to provide money to a child when the mother is driving around in a Mercedes, he's going to have a huge amount of resentment built up towards her and potentially towards the kid, and long-term, thats going to poison the relationship. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't buy things for the kid like gifts and things like that, thats definitely something to do, but a regular (or non-regular) payment to the mother for the kid seems like a bad idea.
You can say "well he done fucked up and he needs to not let that resentment build up because its not the kid's fault he's an idiot" and that may be true but unfortunately human brains don't usually work that way.
Well, what's a real one called, then? I mean, a real real family planning clinic? I'm not Australian. The problem is he called an anti-abortion line first, got some terrible advice, and doesn't seem interested in going to a real family planning clinic to get some real advice, especially about the risks of this dubious sounding "massage abortion", which sounds absurdly dangerous to me.
It doesn't sound like a scam to me, but surely the best way is waiting for the kid to be born and then doing a DNA test. Not asking her to do a DNA test, but getting her to send him a swab from the kid and then he can have the test done himself. I don't see any way that could be faked.
Yeah this.
A family planning clinic.
I'm not australian either, crisis pregnancy centers are a problem in the US as well.
I don't get how you guys think this is a scam. She hasn't asked him for any money yet, she has asked him if he would support their child after it is born and wants his support during the birth. I'm curious how you guys think she is going to fake giving birth with the OP watching. I get that it theoretically could be someone else's kid, but not how she could fake giving birth while the OP watches.
EDIT: If you think her reactions have been fishy, what would you consider a normal reaction to finding out that you are pregnant while living in a country where abortion is illegal and with a father who is very religious when the person you had sex with lives in a different country?
Regardless, EVEN IF it IS his kid, I still don't think he's under any moral obligation to provide financial support when she's perfectly well off and he is not. Be there emotionally for the kid, sure, but I don't see how he's morally obliged to provide money that he doesn't really have when she's driving around in a Merc. Down the line, when he has a job, a stable income, and the means to provide support, by all means yes, but until then no sensible moral should be compelling him to do anything.
If there's legal obligations to do so, thats another story, of course.
1) Go to a local midwife equvalent
2) Give midwife X sum of money
3) Lie down while said midwife painfully hits, squeezes, pinches, and probes with the aim of pulverizing the fetus
4) HOPEFULLY after all that the abortion actually works, because if it doesn't you end up with a very, very damaged baby who suffers who-knows-what-kind of permanent deformities or defects.
I would not wish that on anyone, and I certainly wouldn't encourage it.
That is downright horrifying.
But apparently widely practiced in Myanmar, Thailand, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Indonesia!
Speaking as a father (now of three) who discarded college and "life plans" to be a man and take care of his responsibilities: yeah, it pretty much does make you a lowlife bastard. It sounds to me like you already know the answer to this, though. If you didn't, all the stuff you're thinking about wouldn't bother you.
You have to face this, mate: your old life is gone. It will never return, and you will not ever forget about this. IF she has the child, you'll always know your son or daughter is out there in the world, and if she doesn't, you'll still have lived through all of this and you'll have to face up to how you behaved and what it says about you as a person. If you don't tell your parents, you'll always know that deep down you're a cowardly liar, and if you do, their opinion of you is definitely going to change somehow or other. If it helps at all, I promise you that with dedication and effort, you can still have a great life and achieve your goals. Having a child changes the equation but it doesn't ruin everything forever. Would I have preferred to plan everything out instead of doing it like we did? Absolutely. Would I go back and change it if I had a choice? My oldest daughter is 15... how could I wish her out of existence? If someone offered, I'd refuse in an instant.
You've got choices to make, but none of them are "I choose to make this all go away". Your old life is gone, your old you is gone. It's time to be certain you can live with your decisions now and forever, because you cannot avoid doing something.
Just be sure you can stand to look at yourself in the mirror.
We had a thread about this not long ago where it was reversed. The girl didn't want to raise it and the guy did. When the question of her role came up people made it pretty clear that if he wanted to keep it he should not expect her to want to raise it since she preferred adoption. I don't get why now that the genders are different in this thread that he has to raise this child whether he likes it or not.
If this girl were making this thread, people would say "Don't rely on Mr. Maturity to be there for you emotionally to help you raise this baby, because it sounds like he doesn't want to." Because we're talking to the guy who doesn't want it, people are saying "If you don't have to, and you think you might have any regrets at all, don't be that guy." This is a case where the two threads do not actually conflict.
I agree that you're not going to be able to force her to do anything, and I recommend staying as calm as possible and waiting for some further results. Even if you have to talk to her dad, have someone there to support you at the time, and make it clear that sex isn't a one way street, and that you outlined some options and his daughter chose one of those options to pursue, he should be talking to her about that, not you.
For the OP, the time for thinking about what he wanted is past - now is the time for thinking about what he will do in light the of consequences of the choices he made.
If he abandons the mother, wouldn't you figure she's more likely to go this route?
If you like, you can always ask for a paternity test down the road, before you give her any money. For now, maybe you can think of her as your good friend who is having a baby and who is someone you want to be there for. She's not asking for anything right now, so what's the harm in seeing where things go?
I think that you have answered your own question here, you are already feeling guilty for not offering financial or upbringing support; so there is a part of you that rejects the idea of cutting all ties. I think that this is a normal response.
To start from the beginning; stop trying to help her get an abortion. From what you say about her she does not want one, is worried about the health risks, and cannot handle it emotionally or psychologically. I do not know this woman, and perhaps I am reading your description of her incorrectly, but from what you have posted she seems very conflicted and the last thing you want to do is put yourself in a position in which she says you forced her hand in aborting her pregnancy. What I have noticed is that, from your description, she seems more afraid of abortion than of raising the child so it seems that her mind is made up. As tough as it may be, you will have to accept this. I am not trying to come off as preachy here, but she is already at least two months along in this pregnancy, by the time anything was setup for her she would be likely entering the second trimester... I think it is time for you to sop looking at abortion as an option because I truly believe (again simply from gleaning from your own words about this woman) that she never wanted to terminate this pregnancy and has no intention of doing so unless she feels pressured into it. I may go as far as to say that she is minimally conflicted, that she wants to keep the pregnancy but is afraid of the consequences so wants someone to tell her what to do; you are not the person to do this. Especially if you plan to cut any ties with the potential child. Someone unbiased should be helping her, if anyone.
Now that we are passed the "should I help her find a back alley abortionist" question (again the answer is resoundly "no", it is a danger to her mental and physical well being) we can move on to the "Do I need to 'man up'?" question. I think that you would be unhappy if you did not become involved with this child. There are some people that do not need to be involved with their offspring, but you seem very conflicted about your potential role as parent. You are guilt ridden already and we still don't know for sure if the woman is pregnant. If you are already agonizing over the possibility of perhaps not being a part of your biological child's life then I do not think a psychiatrist will help. These are personal morals and values kicking in and a psychiatrist is not there to re-wire you. You are whom you are. Some part of you wants to be involved, that is why you find yourself consistently asking for permission to cut ties; you want someone to tell you it is okay because you do not think it is okay.
That is not how this works.
You need to decide for yourself, waiting for someone to tell you that what you are doing is alright will only placate you for that moment. If you do not want to be a part of this potential child's life then you need to come to terms with that on your own, rationalize it so that you can live with it based on your own thoughts and feelings; years from now the last thing you want is to be sitting there feeling conflicted with nothing but "But the PAX forums told me it was okay" to fall back on. I am not telling you what to do in terms of whether or not you need to be there for this child; if you are completely against being an active part of this child's life it could very well be argued that it is in the child's best interest for you to not take part in its upbringing, to allow the mother to find a new mate and provide that child with a stable environment, however it is also possible that you are more scared of your parents and her father than you are of becoming a parent yourself.
Re-access the situation. What exactly is frightening to you? Can you work out these fears? Start by opening, not closing, communication lines. If this woman is pregnant, and is having your child it is time to stop worrying about what her father will say or what your parents will say; the only thing that matters is what you and she think and feel both separately from one another and as a pair of people biologically linked to one another.
I am not a professional, but I have helped friends that have been in the same position as the woman that you slept with. Some of them continued the pregnancy, some of them did not; I feel that these choices were best left to them.... I do not, under any circumstances, want to seem like I have a better grasp of the situation than you do, or that I know better than you do. I am just a new set of eyes giving the best advice that I can.... all of this is tough to deal with and I do not envy you.
I absolutely agree with the part about psychiatrists, but as an add, wanted to mention that counsellours, a different breed entirely, are more of the 'lets talk about your life' kind of mental health people, and if you don't have anyone you feel you can go to, they make an excellent resource. It can help a lot to get another perspective in real life, increasing awareness and understanding about your reactions and intentions, and helping to reduce the fear that comes with facing the unknown.
Don't panic about whether you're doing the right thing or not. What you decide now is not necessarily set in stone for the rest of your life. Really the most important thing is to keep an open dialogue with this girl and to be honest to her and yourself. Lots of things can happen between now and when she has the baby and in the years afterward. Having survived my 20s miraculously in one piece, I can tell you that life is pretty bonkers and changes incredibly fast. Who knows - you guys could grow closer together, or you may just go your separate ways.
Also - parents can be surprising. I've had to confide some of my own dumb screwups to my parents, and was astonished to find that they did not get angry with me. It depends on your relationship with them, but they could be very supportive.
Last thing! I know nothing about her, but she is 25, has been through this before and has dealt with the feelings of being a potential parent, and she may be mature enough (albeit emotionally confused at the moment) where she's ready to be a single parent. I know guys feel a "moral" responsibility to help the woman, and yes, the woman does bear the most during the pregnancy. But, speaking as a woman, I actually find it a little insulting that others think we need a man's support (financial at least) to raise a child. This girl may meet someone else who will love the child as his own. She may have a supporting family who will help - she may actually want to do it by herself, anyway. Let her make that decision. I think your only responsibility is to be available to her. We girls like someone who can listen - you don't have to fix our problems, and oftentimes we're not looking for an answer - we just need to talk.
just my 2 cents!