guitar motor skills/anyone know these chords?

Sam

i'm having trouble developing consistency with ideal finger positioning, picking, emphasizing and muting. I can see these aspects in isolated chunks when I play- how good musicians accentuate and bring chords to life with the way they control everything about the volume and textures of the notes that get played (and the ones that don't etc.)

case in point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8dl12lsaW8

can't seem to play it *quite* like that even if you're technically playing all those chords right...

long story short i can do these things in bits and pieces but i can't seem to put the carriages of the train together, it's like having trouble using a second language you can understand in text but everyday parlance leaves you in a daze.

the obvious answer is practice like a mofo, but i'm having trouble settling on drills.

update:yeah so if anyone knows the chords for either the song above or this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTHckSzjNaE

please let me know- would greatly appreciate it.

garroad_ran

First question: How long have you been playing? In most of my students a lot of these things just come with time.

Suggestion #1: Instead of practicing "drills," practice recording the parts. (This will help you identify the little nuances that make the part sound the way it does, and get you to reproduce those nuances).

Suggestion #2: Do you play in your bedroom, or do you play with other people? More of the latter, less of the former.

Sam

good question. i've learned on and off since i was 16, but haven't touched a guitar for the past 3-4 years.

so i'm above average in some respects and horribly handicapped in others, that's the easiest way to explain it.

an example of my sloppy "ear" playing- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PeqVjNevoo

that is not me at my best but that's the standard i'm likely to be at if i just randomly pick up a guitar...you need consistency.

Sam

finding people to jam with- it's hard. it seems like everyone only knows a few riffs they can recite, or they're just way beyond me and i'd be wasting their time.

last night i made friends with a (homeless?) street drummer called Robbo, and he agreed to jam if I brought my guitar over. He can bang some legit grooves, so I guess there's one option.

i'm not good enough to go to open mic night jams yet...

Demerdar

It takes a lot of practice to sound as good as a professional guitarist. Hell, Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, etc.. play sloppy as hell live, but they still have that sound you know? Like, they can just do it. It comes from being naturally talented and playing guitar every day for 15 years 8 hours a day. It's how they make a living.

Just keep practicing, eventually you will be happy with the way you sound. It just comes from playing more often. There is nothing you actively think about.

Sam

i'm actually turned off by performers who don't keep high standards of rythym live.

i mean yes this sounds cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk3r677iDWY

but these performances are more austere and show more respect for the audience and the music itself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkX7Q2J7k48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVC2cszdTao

Pagey sounds like a stoner noodling about in comparison, all due respect etc.

but that's kind of what im trying to get away from in my playing.

garroad_ran

I dunno, I think you're getting at something that's pretty hard to diagnose and solve. If you're looking for precision and perfection in your playing, you'll want to look at what session players recommend in practice routines. Invariably that seems to be practicing everything at a brutally slow tempo, slow enough that you can be conscious of every single motion you need to coordinate. When you practice that slow, what you are playing won't sound like music.

Once you can wrap your head around the concept of practicing like that, THEN you have to practice like a mofo until all those little things you have to coordinate start happening on their own.

Here are some tips you may find useful:
http://www.dominicmiller.com/asklearn.html

Sam

thanks for the link.

i think one of my biggest problems is separating the work and play aspects of it.

Demerdar

Sam wrote: »

i'm actually turned off by performers who don't keep high standards of rythym live.

i mean yes this sounds cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk3r677iDWY

Pagey sounds like a stoner noodling about in comparison, all due respect etc.

but that's kind of what im trying to get away from in my playing.

to be fair, you selected a clip of Jimmy Page in 1989.

You should listen to "How the West was Won", its a Led Zeppelin live album from two shows in ~1972 and, it will seriously blow you away. The man had a great respect for blues. Listen to the track "Whole Lotta Love" on that album, it's pretty much a 20 minute cover of some great blues/rock roots.

edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBZ1e5YAHzk

The man pretty much re-invented his songs on the stage.

Sam

yes i used to listen to How The West Was Won every day in high school.

i like Page, it's just that other people inspire me so much more with what they do with the guitar

- incorporating Hello Mary Lou into Whole Lotta Love is admittedly genius though. yes, that album is a pleasure, but even if you want to talk about sloppy, noisy improvised lead lines, imo Jonny Greenwood is worth a thousand thieving Jimmy Pages.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDD0zFBcjtc

more interesting and succinct

(guitar solo at 4:50- how the fuck is he doing that?)

another version, solo at ~4:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IPiyAQ2lHs&feature=related

to be fair, you selected a clip of Jimmy Page in 1989.

he was always sloppy. imo this was the band's prime-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrvfMSYNqBg

even when his playing's in good form, his aesthetic is sloppy like a leaky chipotle burrito.

Demerdar

I guess we enjoy different things about guitar and what makes a great guitarist. Sloppy isn't a bad thing for me. Hell, if I could play as well as Jimmy Page did when he was strung out on heroin, I wouldn't be typing this response.. I'd be on tour. I guess what I'm saying is don't get hung up on playing perfectly.. because no one ever does. They just happen to play better than you.. and there's really nothing you can do about it. As soon as you start trying to perfect every movement you make on guitar.. you'll stop enjoying it. At least, that's how i feel.

Just keep playing and start writing your own stuff. There is a difference between emulating somebody's sound and making your own.

Sam

i guess i just like smaller and tighter (in proximity) constructions of chord cycles with harmonic variation as opposed to longer freeform ones which emphasize melody more. I guess that's how I would generalize what I like about the guitarists I like- R.L Burnside, Romy Madley Croft, Neil Young, Bernard Sumner and John Frusciante.

update:if anyone with a good ear is feeling charitable, could you please tell me (or try guessing) what the chords for this would be? should be easy and perfect to practice on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTHckSzjNaE

Demerdar

Sam wrote: »

more interesting and succinct

(guitar solo at 4:50- how the fuck is he doing that?)

garroad_ran

It's in a funny tuning, so you may have a hard time playing along to the track.

The song starts like so (four beats per chord):

E E E E
A B
E E F#m A

This repeats, with the bass doing it's thing. Then something like this

E E A A
E E A A
E E

Then the verse is the same thing as the beginning.... and that's about as far as I'm going to go right now, since I'd probably have to actually get the tuning right to figure out exactly what he's doing.

Sam

e as in the 3 finger e on top of the neck?

a as in the normal a on second fret?

Sam

Demerdar wrote: »

Sam wrote: »

more interesting and succinct

(guitar solo at 4:50- how the fuck is he doing that?)

actually he uses a max msp patch- i meant how he'd managed to make something that sounded that cool. here's some kids playing with it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSP7ck18Y_g&feature=related

i guess it's all in the programming-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qruCD1K8qmo

wow so people code for their guitars. that's some dedication.

garroad_ran

Sam wrote: »

e as in the 3 finger e on top of the neck?

a as in the normal a on second fret?

If I had to guess, I'd say yes, but I really can't tell because it's so out of tune. I can hear the chord functions, but not the specific voicings.

Demerdar

Sam wrote: »

Demerdar wrote: »

Sam wrote: »

wow so people code for their guitars. that's some dedication.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that guitarists (musicians) kinda do what they want. They make whatever sounds that come out of their amps (by any means necessary) and it sounds good (or bad, depending on your personal tastes).

Really..... don't think that these guitarists even have half a thought about what they are doing (in regards to music theory). They do what they do, and they do it well. It just so happens that a lot of people like what they do.. and they get paid for it. Programming your guitars? Bullshit. Johnny Greenwood puts his guitar through a DL4 and plays what he wants to play, because fuck it, you're making music. Putting your emotion into it. Nothing can quantify it.. no matter how hard you try.

Sam

things like how you position your fingers, angle at which you strum, relative force with which you strum etc. can be quantified to an extent. that's why concepts like palm muting and string muting exist.

i beg to differ on Greenwood not "programming his guitar" in the sense that there are specific parameters you can control for on the max msp, which affect the way it modifies the sound of what you play, though the end result is sort of out of your control beyond what notes you play next that will get randomly altered but in controlled parameters.

it's like a more customizable version of the Theremin solos that Pagey used to inflict on fans in Whole Lotta Love.

Sam

anyways like page he only uses that in like 2 songs. but Greenwood can make clean guitar sound beautiful and percussive like a rude punk riff at the same time. dude's a genius.

Not as huge a fan of his film scores though.

Sam

ok ok these guys are sloppy but still awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRKznQXtBn4

Nappuccino

I believe what you're looking for in this thread is the word "experience"

Play a shitload and figureout what you like about what you play and then keep replicating it until you can do it on command. There's nothing really scientific about it and no one is going to tell you "hold the pick at a 70 degree angle and strike it with your thumb 4 cm above the pick line to produce this exact sound." The basic techniques can easy to explain but replicating them successfully is all a matter of just doing them until you get the sound you want.

Space Pickle

long story short i can do these things in bits and pieces but i can't seem to put the carriages of the train together, it's like having trouble using a second language you can understand in text but everyday parlance leaves you in a daze.

the obvious answer is practice like a mofo, but i'm having trouble settling on drills.

Practice more. You don't need drills, you just need to focus specifically on the exact thing that's giving you trouble (or make that your drill).

garroad_ran

Space Pickle wrote: »

long story short i can do these things in bits and pieces but i can't seem to put the carriages of the train together, it's like having trouble using a second language you can understand in text but everyday parlance leaves you in a daze.

the obvious answer is practice like a mofo, but i'm having trouble settling on drills.

Practice more. You don't need drills, you just need to focus specifically on the exact thing that's giving you trouble (or make that your drill).

While I agree with you, and have said as much earlier on in the thread, the idea of saying "practice more" bothers me. Knowing -how- to practice is more important than how much time you spend, and where for some people that might be obvious, some people aren't quite as adept at figuring out how to make the most of their time with the instrument.

I can't begin to tell you how many students I've had who come in for lessons week after week after week and never see improvement. Not because they don't "practice," but because they don't concentrate on the right things while they practice.

Space Pickle

I concur with your sentiments, mr. internet man. :^: