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SPACE MARINE - In the grim darkness of the future, there are only BIG MEN

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  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Morkath wrote: »
    Moridin889 wrote: »
    The orks are a race of idiot savants. It's all purely unconsciously done. Can you comprehend the precise method an idiot savant performs calculus in his head in a fraction of a second? Not likely, and its the same for orks. Mekboys just know how to make these things, even if no one else can figure out how they work.

    He performs the calculus the exact same way I would, just way faster.

    Isn't the whole point to math that there is only o
    ne way to do it?

    Ummmmm... no? There are multiple ways to get to the same solution, depending on the problem. You see steps and a process. An idiot savant sees the answer with no extraneous bits. Your mind can't make the same logical leaps without equations to support it.

    It's a bit more complicated when trying to find an analog for xenos technology

    Also with the orks, their tech is designed with their biology in mind. Their guns have significantly higher thresholds for firing them. In multiple books their vehicles are used, albeit poorly, requiring lots of physical strength to even press the pedals

    But enough with nerd debates. We need more purging, not understanding :p

    Moridin889 on
  • SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Kill all fuckin warhams

    SJ on
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    SJ wrote: »
    subedii wrote: »
    The Orkz are the football hooligans of the universe. They like to paint things red, because everyone knows red things go faster. Their combined belief in this fact creates a psychic field which causes that to be true.

    God fucking damnit, no it isn't! Don't make me plunge this thread into pages of arguments about Ork fluff that I will inevitably win, just like every other time

    Look, we know it isn't true, but it is more fun, and thus more orky. Deal with it.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • PureauthorPureauthor Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    If you're bothering to argue about canon in a WH40K game then I believe you're missing the point.

    It doesn't matter if 'Orks have a psychic field that makes things work the way they think it should work' is or is not a concept actually laid down by GWorkshop in their codices (which are filled to the brim with fluff and propaganda pieces from unreliable narrators anyway). What matters is that it is a hilarious and awesome concept, and as far as WH40K is concerned, that makes it a valid one.

    Pureauthor on
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  • Mr.SunshineMr.Sunshine Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    You people need to read your Uplifting Primers more. That'll teach you everything need to know about Xenos and whatnot.

    Mr.Sunshine on
  • mr_michmr_mich Mmmmagic. MDRegistered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I want to hear the correct answer from SJ.

    mr_mich on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Pureauthor wrote: »
    If you're bothering to argue about canon in a WH40K game then I believe you're missing the point.

    It doesn't matter if 'Orks have a psychic field that makes things work the way they think it should work' is or is not a concept actually laid down by GWorkshop in their codices (which are filled to the brim with fluff and propaganda pieces from unreliable narrators anyway). What matters is that it is a hilarious and awesome concept, and as far as WH40K is concerned, that makes it a valid one.

    http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Waaagh
    The Orkish term Waaagh refers to three related phenomena. Ork behavior is dominated by the Waaagh!, a psychic field they generate. This field allows Orks to instinctively recognize who is 'bigga' and therefore, in charge.

    This field also warps reality to fit Orkish beliefs, allowing their ramshackle technology to function properly. Because the Orks are convinced their designs are sound and functional, the Waaagh! field makes them so. Other races have found that many Orkish devices simply do not work unless wielded by an Orkoid. Similarly, Orks also paint their explosives to make them more destructive and their vehicles red to make them faster; though this may sound nonsensical, because the Orks believe these colors can affect the performance of their weapons, the Waaagh! field makes its true.

    Sources

    Warhammer 40,000 4th Edition Rulebook
    Codex: Orks

    http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Red_Paint_Job
    The Red Paint Job is an Ork vehicle upgrade. Most cultures in the galaxy place special meaning on the colours they can perceive. Many vehicles in the Ork armoury are painted red as a result of the superstition that it makes them "go fasta!". Because of the cumulative psychic effect of the Waaagh!, this thought manifests itself as a real boost to the operation of a vehicle.

    The effect is not limited to vehicles as red is found on just about any item an Ork wants to make stronger, faster, shoot better, etc.

    The most fanatical Orks belong to the Kult of Speed and use red liberally.
    Sources

    Codex: Orks (3rd Edition)
    Warhammer 40,000: Wargear

    Sounds fairly official to me! How many codexes of information would you like?

    randombattle on
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  • PureauthorPureauthor Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I just said 'it doesn't matter' how many codices it appears in. What matters is whether or not it is awesome.

    (Note: It is awesome.)

    Pureauthor on
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  • SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    That would be pretty cool if the people who wrote those articles had actually used information from the books that they're sourcing.

    The fluff of the matter is that from the Imperium's point of view (in particular the one magos biologis/genetor whose report is actually quoted in the fluff) the Orks technology only works because of the 'gestalt psychic field' that is created by the Orks innate psychic talents. However, that's only the one guys point of view, and it is a point of view that is heavily skewed by his own indoctrination. The whole point of that fluff piece is to be contradictory - the Ork codex spells out that the Orks have an innate working understanding of technology and battlefield tactics that is coded into their DNA.

    That particular Genetor theorizes that the Orks technology only works because of their belief that it will, but he has no actual proof of that. In fact, all of the proof points to the opposite: plenty of humans use captured Ork weaponry and vehicles and no one has to believe in them for them to work. The entire fluff piece is written from the Imperial point of view and isn't meant to be taken as fact, which is why so many people think the way that they do about this piece of fluff. The fact that Ork technology is prone to breaking down is itself proof that it would have to be built on actual mechanical principles for it to work in the first place: Orks aren't in the business of doubting themselves.

    There is literally only one piece of fluff that actually theorizes about the Orks psychic field being the reason why their technology works, and it is one report written by one geneticist (Genetor). There's no actual fluff that says that literally painting a vehicle red makes it faster, the fluff only says that vehicles that are red do in fact go faster, but there's no causative link between the two. It's just as likely (more likely, given the Orks genetic predispositions) that the fastest vehicles just happen to get painted red by their owners or creators.

    OrksOrksOrksOrks

    e; Also, the first article you quoted is literally lying. There are plenty of instances in the fluff of people using Ork technology just fine, even when Orks aren't around, regardless of whether or not they're technically proficient enough to figure out how it works.

    ee: In fact, the most consistent theme about the Waaaagh! in the fluff is that it is first and foremost a motivating factor; when the Orks blood is up the Waaagh! is felt across whole systems and this pushes the Orks into organization, construction, planning, armament, and all of the other things that Orks would rather not have to worry about, but damnit, it's time to stomp some 'umies!

    SJ on
  • mr_michmr_mich Mmmmagic. MDRegistered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Sold!

    mr_mich on
  • KadokenKadoken Giving Ends to my Friends and it Feels Stupendous Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I would like to be a Space Wolf. Because they are awesome. They are part viking, wolf, and super soldier.
    They're also technophobes but that doesn't really matter. The entire Imperium is kind of technophobic. Don't they not use their old good advanced technology because they're idiots?

    Kadoken on
  • SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Kadoken wrote: »
    I would like to be a Space Wolf. Because they are awesome. They are part viking, wolf, and super soldier.
    They're also technophobes but that doesn't really matter. The entire Imperium is kind of technophobic. Don't they not use their old good advanced technology because they're idiots?

    They don't use their good, old technology for a number of reasons. Most often, the method of manufacture is only known by a select few in the mechanicus, who aren't going to let anyone know. The manufacturing methods of much of the technology they used to have access to has been lost or destroyed. The Mechanicus has also established their dominance over the technology of the Imperium in a literal cult that they control completely, and technology in general is held in a very spiritual regard. You don't get told how to start a computer - sorry, cogitator - you are trained in the rights of activation, and how to apply the proper oils, unguents, prayers and timely smacking of the holy console before finally pressing the rune of activation (ie, the big red button that says ON).

    SJ on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    SJ wrote: »
    The fluff of the matter is that from the Imperium's point of view (in particular the one magos biologis/genetor whose report is actually quoted in the fluff) the Orks technology only works because of the 'gestalt psychic field' that is created by the Orks innate psychic talents. However, that's only the one guys point of view, and it is a point of view that is heavily skewed by his own indoctrination. The whole point of that fluff piece is to be contradictory - the Ork codex spells out that the Orks have an innate working understanding of technology and battlefield tactics that is coded into their DNA.

    ee: In fact, the most consistent theme about the Waaaagh! in the fluff is that it is first and foremost a motivating factor; when the Orks blood is up the Waaagh! is felt across whole systems and this pushes the Orks into organization, construction, planning, armament, and all of the other things that Orks would rather not have to worry about, but damnit, it's time to stomp some 'umies!

    It's both and if GW said that is how it works on multiple occasions I'm gonna say that is how they want people to see it.

    Also the whole Imperium's view point thing is wrong cause if that was really true they wouldn't say the orks are better psykers then human psykers. They would say they are dumb and can barely put things together with hot hurting their tiny little pee brains and even that sort of doesn't work cause they are dumb unlike humans which are great.

    randombattle on
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    I never asked for this!
  • SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    SJ wrote: »
    The fluff of the matter is that from the Imperium's point of view (in particular the one magos biologis/genetor whose report is actually quoted in the fluff) the Orks technology only works because of the 'gestalt psychic field' that is created by the Orks innate psychic talents. However, that's only the one guys point of view, and it is a point of view that is heavily skewed by his own indoctrination. The whole point of that fluff piece is to be contradictory - the Ork codex spells out that the Orks have an innate working understanding of technology and battlefield tactics that is coded into their DNA.

    ee: In fact, the most consistent theme about the Waaaagh! in the fluff is that it is first and foremost a motivating factor; when the Orks blood is up the Waaagh! is felt across whole systems and this pushes the Orks into organization, construction, planning, armament, and all of the other things that Orks would rather not have to worry about, but damnit, it's time to stomp some 'umies!

    It's both and if GW said that is how it works on multiple occasions I'm gonna say that is how they want people to see it.

    Also the whole Imperium's view point thing is wrong cause if that was really true they wouldn't say the orks are better psykers then human psykers. They would say they are dumb and can barely put things together with hot hurting their tiny little pee brains and even that sort of doesn't work cause they are dumb unlike humans which are great.

    It isn't both, and GW hasn't said that on multiple occasions. That's why I repeatedly said that it was only in one fluff piece (because it is). I have the books in front of me that those lexicanum articles are sourcing, and they don't say any of the things that the authors of those articles have put up there.

    And you literally made up that second part, no one said that Ork psykers are more powerful than human psykers. Just because the Imperium might lie to the average trooper about his chances vs a genestealer for morale purposes, that doesn't mean that Imperial intelligence assets or the Inquisition and their agencies are anything but candid about their own capabilities and the capabilities of their opponents. I mean, the article that your sources are supposedly citing even argue against you here, as the Genetor in the 3rd edition Ork codex is very candid when he says that Orks are no less intelligent than your average human, they just have a vastly different cultural outlook which leads to more direct problem solving skills rather than abstract thought.

    SJ on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    While that is a very valid and logical argument filled with physical proof and a well constructed ideas one idea is cool and one idea is cooler.

    This is the same universe in which there are space ships that are the size of texas with statues the size of new jersey made of gold. I gotta go with the cooler idea.

    randombattle on
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    I never asked for this!
  • SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    While that is a very valid and logical argument filled with physical proof and a well constructed ideas one idea is cool and one idea is cooler.

    This is the same universe in which there are space ships that are the size of texas with statues the size of new jersey made of gold. I gotta go with the cooler idea.

    Space Orks that know how to make Tanks, Machine Guns, and Teleporters because it's been hard wired into their genes that they will instinctively understand chemistry, metallurgy and quantum physics is a fuck of a lot cooler than Space Orks who can make things work because 'lol they're psychic, man'

    SJ on
  • DiannaoChongDiannaoChong Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Ferrus wrote: »
    Hopefully GW will extend their game department further. Chaos Gate 2 would be hella awesome, it'll give us a nice TBS/Warhammer fix and might draw the X-Com crowd, too!

    I would kill so hard for another Chaos Gate game. I love tactics games, and it just makes sense given the table top variety.

    DiannaoChong on
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  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    There was an xcom style 40k game made recently! It was 40k Squad Command. It came out on PSP and I think DS as well. It is hella fun and it's like xcom but with space marines.
    SJ wrote: »
    While that is a very valid and logical argument filled with physical proof and a well constructed ideas one idea is cool and one idea is cooler.

    This is the same universe in which there are space ships that are the size of texas with statues the size of new jersey made of gold. I gotta go with the cooler idea.

    Space Orks that know how to make Tanks, Machine Guns, and Teleporters because it's been hard wired into their genes that they will instinctively understand chemistry, metallurgy and quantum physics is a fuck of a lot cooler than Space Orks who can make things work because 'lol they're psychic, man'

    No you see it is all of the above. Like how marines can be super tough super tank soldiers with ribcages made of solid bone and yet sometimes they can do backflips and super agile shit. Does it make sense? No but it's still cool!

    The way I see orks is they can make stuff with their innate stuff and then its boosted by their waaagh. The only 40k lore I have seen are video games and the ciaphias cain books. In the one cain book with the orks he hijacks an ork buggy which worked but the gun mounted on it didn't.

    randombattle on
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    I never asked for this!
  • SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    There was an xcom style 40k game made recently! It was 40k Squad Command. It came out on PSP and I think DS as well. It is hella fun and it's like xcom but with space marines.
    SJ wrote: »
    While that is a very valid and logical argument filled with physical proof and a well constructed ideas one idea is cool and one idea is cooler.

    This is the same universe in which there are space ships that are the size of texas with statues the size of new jersey made of gold. I gotta go with the cooler idea.

    Space Orks that know how to make Tanks, Machine Guns, and Teleporters because it's been hard wired into their genes that they will instinctively understand chemistry, metallurgy and quantum physics is a fuck of a lot cooler than Space Orks who can make things work because 'lol they're psychic, man'

    No you see it is all of the above. Like how marines can be super tough super tank soldiers with ribcages made of solid bone and yet sometimes they can do backflips and super agile shit. Does it make sense? No but it's still cool!

    The way I see orks is they can make stuff with their innate stuff and then its boosted by their waaagh. The only 40k lore I have seen are video games and the ciaphias cain books. In the one cain book with the orks he hijacks an ork buggy which worked but the gun mounted on it didn't.

    how old are you

    SJ on
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    People take their cartoon hooligan fungus monsters seriously around here

    BloodySloth on
  • SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    beerhammer is the besthammer

    SJ on
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    SJ you're getting roped into some pretty bad trolling here. While I admire and even appreciate your dedication, dude be trollin' you.

    Anon the Felon on
  • SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Yes because his last post wasn't obvious enough, thank you :P

    SJ on
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    SJ wrote: »
    Yes because his last post wasn't obvious enough, thank you :P

    Glad I could help!

    This probably has to be my best post ever.

    Anon the Felon on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    No but seriously 40k Squad Command is great and everyone should play it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcIfRQQUX8A

    I think like no one played cause there are barely any videos on youtube and no one seems to remember it.

    randombattle on
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  • SJSJ College. Forever.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    It was alright. Pretty good for a handheld game, at any rate. I'd love to see a remake of something in the style of Chaos Gate, though.

    Actually, what I'd really like is for Relic to do Battlefleet Gothic: The Vidja Game

    SJ on
  • Anon the FelonAnon the Felon In bat country.Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Battlefleet Gothic: The Void Ballet

    Anon the Felon on
  • randombattlerandombattle Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Nobody is ever gonna make a Battlefleet Gothic game no matter how awesome it would be because it wouldn't be all about spess merines. Lets face it here SM is the biggest money maker for GW. No surprise the only game not about the SM also heavily featured them. And that flopped bad enough I doubt they will stray far from what brings the bacon.

    randombattle on
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  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    True dat, but .... hold on, I just pictured Master Chief and Marcus gearing up to fight the flood and lamprey and turning the corner and seeing Gabriel Angelos crush the last on under his boot...."Brothers"

    RoyceSraphim on
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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    People take their cartoon hooligan fungus monsters seriously around here

    No kidding. I wasn't expecting one throwaway line about red paint to cause this much "INTERNETZ RAAAAGE!".

    Grief, it's completely wrong if you want, fine I'll go with that, I uh... I'm not really going to get into a shouting match with you guys over it.


    So thems Marines. I hear they're in Space.

    subedii on
  • Psychotic OnePsychotic One The Lord of No Pants Parts UnknownRegistered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Now wait...why don't the orkz just paint themselves red. They'd be faster, stronger, and redder than their enemies. The WAAAAAAGH would be unstoppable! *Head explodes*

    Psychotic One on
  • NeliNeli Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    some of them do but most of them are too busy trying to figure out how to squeeze more dakka out of their guns

    e64v2g.jpg

    Neli on
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  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Wow, now if only he was red, then we'd be in trouble.

    RoyceSraphim on
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  • FerrusFerrus Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    But... but Red does make things fasta...

    Ferrus on
    I would like to pause for a moment, to talk about my penis.
    My penis is like a toddler. A toddler—who is a perfectly normal size for his age—on a long road trip to what he thinks is Disney World. My penis is excited because he hasn’t been to Disney World in a long, long time, but remembers a time when he used to go every day. So now the penis toddler is constantly fidgeting, whining “Are we there yet? Are we there yet? How about now? Now? How about... now?”
    And Disney World is nowhere in sight.
  • RoyceSraphimRoyceSraphim Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Does the next Dawn of War expansion include a campaign to defend a red paint factory against the ork menace?

    RoyceSraphim on
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  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    battlefleet gothic would be awesome as a 3ds game

    Still I am disapointed it's going to be the generic Ultramarines taking on a WAAAAAAGH with 5 guys seems like something the Black Templars would do

    Brainleech on
  • LanrutconLanrutcon The LabyrinthRegistered User regular
    edited April 2011
    As long as I can run around with a heavy bolter and pour explosive rounds into hordes of greenskins.

    Sidenote: Ultras. Why'd it have to be the space jocks? At least we're done with the Blood Ravens for a while.

    Lanrutcon on
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  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Nobody is ever gonna make a Battlefleet Gothic game no matter how awesome it would be because it wouldn't be all about spess merines. Lets face it here SM is the biggest money maker for GW. No surprise the only game not about the SM also heavily featured them. And that flopped bad enough I doubt they will stray far from what brings the bacon.

    I'm gonna link a video about a secret Relic project that's a proof of concept. Slap a new coat of paint on that bad-boy, put some spikes or chapels on the ships, and multiply EVERYTHING by 100 and you're good to go. Also I think that Relic's created enough goodwill with GW to take a little risk every now and again...

    edit: Also the reason why Ork technology doesn't work for other races is that a dead ork is dead 'cause his choppah don't chop or his shootah don't shoot.

    Malkor on
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  • MrVyngaardMrVyngaard Live From New Etoile Straight Outta SosariaRegistered User regular
    edited April 2011
    True dat, but .... hold on, I just pictured Master Chief and Marcus gearing up to fight the flood and lamprey and turning the corner and seeing Gabriel Angelos crush the last on under his boot...."Brothers"

    But only the bearers of the holy Emperor's gene seed are fit for that honorific, and thus they are his angels of Death. To even think otherwise would be...
    Wait for it.
    34xgsiq.png

    MrVyngaard on
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  • GrimthwackerGrimthwacker Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Neli wrote: »
    some of them do but most of them are too busy trying to figure out how to squeeze more dakka out of their guns

    e64v2g.jpg

    YIKES. Now THAT'S alotta dakka. Not yet enuff dakka, but still. . .

    Grimthwacker on
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