Also, regarding 2 gate in PvZ, I remember rumblings a while back about a 9 pool 16 hatch or something (my numbers are probably a bit off) that was almost just as economical as a 15 hatch. If 2 gate really did become prevalent, couldn't zerg switch to this build and be safe, while not falling behind? Or is it not viable at all?
15 hatch isn't in style now since cannon blocks are easy to execute and can cost you significant mining time to defend. 9 pool 16 hatch is suboptimal unless you're looking on pressuring with your lings which a 2 gate will swat down easily.
The standard speedling opening (14 gas/pool) has a hard time against 2 gate because lings are cost-inefficient against zealots and without spine support, a committed 2 gate can delay your natural significantly. Your only option is overproduce lings (wasting larva) or one-base roach to fend off the zealots (wasting time).
This wouldn't be so bad if all the maps featured xel'naga-or-larger rush distances (nevermind proxy shens), but since we still have close position metal and temple still (which are in effect steppes of war), we're trading one problem (ease of a 4 gate) that was mostly figured out for another problem (2 gate zealot) which was not figured out before it was patched away.
(p.s., I'm not calling this imbalanced. I think this will change the zvp early game for the worse at a time when zergs were just getting around to figuring out the midgame and endgame compositions that work.)
I'm pretty sure I've seen a programer (I think it was Idra but I'm not sure) refute that lings are cost ineffective versus zealot. 4 lings beat a zealot. The problem is that people (myself included when I played zerg) do not make enough lings. You need at least 4 times the amount of lings when engaging zealots or you will lose and you will lose BAD. I've had it happen more times then I like. But if you make 4 x the amount of lings you'll draw. And if you make say 5 x the amount of lings you'll beat it HARD because you won't lose DPS as the lings die.
The problem isn't lings being ineffective the problem is more that you lose larva on making so many lings, but then again you could make spines and/or queens to compensate for that.
Micro plays a big part in making lings somewhat useful vs zealots. If he puts his back to a wall your ling efficiency plumets. If you link micro like a boss, your efficiency goes up.
As you said, usually not worth it unless you have an overwhelming amount that you can sort of micro and force a good surround.
Man, trying to establish good habits from the start makes the learning curve in this game so much steeper than it otherwise would be.
"Always be building workers! Use control groups and hotkeys for everything!"
"But I don't even know the tech trees yet!" *Whimper*
I remember when I first started the campaign I didn't understand optimal worker counts or how many unit-producing structures to build or what upgrades to purchase (Oh, mules are good? Never got 'em). I just fumbled through with what I could produce with about 15 SCVs, a barracks (two if I was feeling frisky), and a factory or starport if the map allowed it.
That said, once you do start learning the ropes either through studying or going out and laddering for a few months you'll find upon returing to the campaign that you'll have transformed into an unholy engine of carnage.
I started out doing the campaign and while the first handful of missions were not difficult to win (on hard difficulty) I just don't feel comfortable macroing at the same time as doing other shit yet. Right now I'm just trying to bang hotkeys into my muscle memory in vs AI games so it's easier.
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My zombie survival life simulator They Don't Sleep is out now on Steam if you want to check it out.
Also, regarding 2 gate in PvZ, I remember rumblings a while back about a 9 pool 16 hatch or something (my numbers are probably a bit off) that was almost just as economical as a 15 hatch. If 2 gate really did become prevalent, couldn't zerg switch to this build and be safe, while not falling behind? Or is it not viable at all?
15 hatch isn't in style now since cannon blocks are easy to execute and can cost you significant mining time to defend. 9 pool 16 hatch is suboptimal unless you're looking on pressuring with your lings which a 2 gate will swat down easily.
The standard speedling opening (14 gas/pool) has a hard time against 2 gate because lings are cost-inefficient against zealots and without spine support, a committed 2 gate can delay your natural significantly. Your only option is overproduce lings (wasting larva) or one-base roach to fend off the zealots (wasting time).
This wouldn't be so bad if all the maps featured xel'naga-or-larger rush distances (nevermind proxy shens), but since we still have close position metal and temple still (which are in effect steppes of war), we're trading one problem (ease of a 4 gate) that was mostly figured out for another problem (2 gate zealot) which was not figured out before it was patched away.
(p.s., I'm not calling this imbalanced. I think this will change the zvp early game for the worse at a time when zergs were just getting around to figuring out the midgame and endgame compositions that work.)
I'm pretty sure I've seen a programer (I think it was Idra but I'm not sure) refute that lings are cost ineffective versus zealot. 4 lings beat a zealot. The problem is that people (myself included when I played zerg) do not make enough lings. You need at least 4 times the amount of lings when engaging zealots or you will lose and you will lose BAD. I've had it happen more times then I like. But if you make 4 x the amount of lings you'll draw. And if you make say 5 x the amount of lings you'll beat it HARD because you won't lose DPS as the lings die.
The problem isn't lings being ineffective the problem is more that you lose larva on making so many lings, but then again you could make spines and/or queens to compensate for that.
Yeah, sorry. By cost inefficient I meant larva in particular. Until you have your queen up, you actually don't have enough larva production to keep up with two gate zealot unless you start producing lings in advance. And once your injections start cycling in, you can overcome zealots as long as you can get a surround. But as mig mentions, if the zealots have superior positioning via a choke or with their backs to a wall, a disproportionate number of lings will fall to the zealots. Not to mention you'll be spending money on lings full time for 1-2 inject cycles at least which allows protoss to get a sigificant lead in probes.
If you fall back on spines and queens, you'll defend your main just fine. However, your expo hatch will be delayed even longer because you'll have no way to defend it until you hit a critical number of lings.
Kambing on
@TwitchTV, @Youtube: master-level zerg ladder/customs, commentary, and random miscellany.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a programer (I think it was Idra but I'm not sure) refute that lings are cost ineffective versus zealot. 4 lings beat a zealot. The problem is that people (myself included when I played zerg) do not make enough lings. You need at least 4 times the amount of lings when engaging zealots or you will lose and you will lose BAD. I've had it happen more times then I like. But if you make 4 x the amount of lings you'll draw. And if you make say 5 x the amount of lings you'll beat it HARD because you won't lose DPS as the lings die.
The problem isn't lings being ineffective the problem is more that you lose larva on making so many lings, but then again you could make spines and/or queens to compensate for that.
4 lings is 2 larvae, though, so you're going to come out behind in the trade.
meh.... spines, queens, slings, and banes. have to find out how committed the guy is first.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a programer (I think it was Idra but I'm not sure) refute that lings are cost ineffective versus zealot. 4 lings beat a zealot. The problem is that people (myself included when I played zerg) do not make enough lings. You need at least 4 times the amount of lings when engaging zealots or you will lose and you will lose BAD. I've had it happen more times then I like. But if you make 4 x the amount of lings you'll draw. And if you make say 5 x the amount of lings you'll beat it HARD because you won't lose DPS as the lings die.
The problem isn't lings being ineffective the problem is more that you lose larva on making so many lings, but then again you could make spines and/or queens to compensate for that.
20 Zealots beats 80 lings
And if you're ever an armor upgrade behind their weapon upgrade you're boned
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited April 2011
feels great in a game when you realize you won
pressurepressurepressure, finally feel safe, realize he doesn't have a third, omg I win
I'm pretty sure I've seen a programer (I think it was Idra but I'm not sure) refute that lings are cost ineffective versus zealot. 4 lings beat a zealot. The problem is that people (myself included when I played zerg) do not make enough lings. You need at least 4 times the amount of lings when engaging zealots or you will lose and you will lose BAD. I've had it happen more times then I like. But if you make 4 x the amount of lings you'll draw. And if you make say 5 x the amount of lings you'll beat it HARD because you won't lose DPS as the lings die.
The problem isn't lings being ineffective the problem is more that you lose larva on making so many lings, but then again you could make spines and/or queens to compensate for that.
20 Zealots beats 80 lings
And if you're ever an armor upgrade behind their weapon upgrade you're boned
really? i know about the +1 attack raping lings, but even upgrading them to slings doesn't do it?
Wave 4: 19 zerglings.
Defenders: 5 hurt zealots.
Losses: Zealots go down, 5 lings hide in base to morph, but warpins clean them up. Wall is rebuilt.
Wave 5: 12 zerglings run through to attack probes. Zealots clean them up. Desperation sets in:
Wave 6: 23 banelings.
Defenders: 9 zealots, 5 sentries.
Losses: Only zealots and gateways. The wall is rebuilt thicker each time and colossi are now on the way.
Wave 7: 23 banelings, 11 zerglings.
Defenders: 2 zealots, 4 stalkers, 5 sentries, 1 colossus, no wall-off.
Losses: All but 1 sentry and colossus.
Wave 8: 18 zerglings run by (whoops, should have had a wall!) Zealots take care of them. Second colo and range are out. Note: At this point, the only other tech building he has is a roach warren.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a programer (I think it was Idra but I'm not sure) refute that lings are cost ineffective versus zealot. 4 lings beat a zealot. The problem is that people (myself included when I played zerg) do not make enough lings. You need at least 4 times the amount of lings when engaging zealots or you will lose and you will lose BAD. I've had it happen more times then I like. But if you make 4 x the amount of lings you'll draw. And if you make say 5 x the amount of lings you'll beat it HARD because you won't lose DPS as the lings die.
The problem isn't lings being ineffective the problem is more that you lose larva on making so many lings, but then again you could make spines and/or queens to compensate for that.
20 Zealots beats 80 lings
And if you're ever an armor upgrade behind their weapon upgrade you're boned
really? i know about the +1 attack raping lings, but even upgrading them to slings doesn't do it?
Once the zealots bunch/get in a line, their dps stays the same, but fewer lings can hit them.
I know it's been gushed about before, but I love Sheth's stream. He's A) very good great about commenting on his play during the game and C) seems like an honestly good dude that you can root for.
so ive learned something playing joe, playing joe is fun because you can kind of try stuff out and do things you dont usually do. Playing ladder is less fun, because little mistakes lose you the game, theres shit you have to do and theres loads of crap to think about etc etc.
Im considering either tanking my rating or getting a new account so i can fuck around and try stupid stuff for fun.
Any tips? I get slightly supply blocked did that lose me the game or was it something else? Maybe I shouldn't expand at all and just warp in mass units? My read was a likely 3 rax expand since his unit count seemed low, I assumed he was going to pressure so I did focus on immortals and stalkers.
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FAME!
people remember my name....
Joe's Stream.
I'm pretty sure I've seen a programer (I think it was Idra but I'm not sure) refute that lings are cost ineffective versus zealot. 4 lings beat a zealot. The problem is that people (myself included when I played zerg) do not make enough lings. You need at least 4 times the amount of lings when engaging zealots or you will lose and you will lose BAD. I've had it happen more times then I like. But if you make 4 x the amount of lings you'll draw. And if you make say 5 x the amount of lings you'll beat it HARD because you won't lose DPS as the lings die.
The problem isn't lings being ineffective the problem is more that you lose larva on making so many lings, but then again you could make spines and/or queens to compensate for that.
As you said, usually not worth it unless you have an overwhelming amount that you can sort of micro and force a good surround.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
I started out doing the campaign and while the first handful of missions were not difficult to win (on hard difficulty) I just don't feel comfortable macroing at the same time as doing other shit yet. Right now I'm just trying to bang hotkeys into my muscle memory in vs AI games so it's easier.
Yeah, sorry. By cost inefficient I meant larva in particular. Until you have your queen up, you actually don't have enough larva production to keep up with two gate zealot unless you start producing lings in advance. And once your injections start cycling in, you can overcome zealots as long as you can get a surround. But as mig mentions, if the zealots have superior positioning via a choke or with their backs to a wall, a disproportionate number of lings will fall to the zealots. Not to mention you'll be spending money on lings full time for 1-2 inject cycles at least which allows protoss to get a sigificant lead in probes.
If you fall back on spines and queens, you'll defend your main just fine. However, your expo hatch will be delayed even longer because you'll have no way to defend it until you hit a critical number of lings.
4 lings is 2 larvae, though, so you're going to come out behind in the trade.
meh.... spines, queens, slings, and banes. have to find out how committed the guy is first.
Joe's Stream.
20 Zealots beats 80 lings
And if you're ever an armor upgrade behind their weapon upgrade you're boned
pressurepressurepressure, finally feel safe, realize he doesn't have a third, omg I win
really? i know about the +1 attack raping lings, but even upgrading them to slings doesn't do it?
Joe's Stream.
Oh, okay, I'll bite.
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
Once the zealots bunch/get in a line, their dps stays the same, but fewer lings can hit them.
I know it's been gushed about before, but I love Sheth's stream. He's A) very good
Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
diamondish protoss.
3k to 10k people watching his stream whenever he streams
he is making a shitload of money for a gamer y/n
also 300 per hour coaching
next gsl code S day, 6 terran 2 protoss
D:D:D:D:
Destiny mentioned jtv's rates during an interview the other day.
3k viewers and 6 commercials per hour comes to about $25/hr.
Ya'll get a discount cuz ya'll a'ight.
Witty signature comment goes here...
wra
like, that's gotta be some sick cheddar
As much flack as he gets lately for failing to beat top Koreans in ZvP, he's really good at this game.
Nexus cancel 5 gate? Newb strat, I'll hold it with spines started after you reached my base (?)
Joe's Stream.
i think something that really appeals to people about idra is his mechanics are not only good, but they are fucking crisp
like, perfect mouse accuracy, no unwasted movements, almost no spam
even when its like 4 base
i mean, other pros are mechanically on the same like, core level as him (ie they can get the same amount of shit done in a similar amount of time)
but after seeing first person of a ton of high level dudes on streams and vods and such
idra just does it with such grace that its just really really really rad to watch his first person view
By mechanical comparison I'm new-born puppy wading through molasses.
Joe is still working on step 2 and 3.
Im considering either tanking my rating or getting a new account so i can fuck around and try stupid stuff for fun.
viewers can comment
at one point I medivac-picked-up to get behind force fields. this makes up for the outcome of the game imo
really gg though simon. I think we tend to have those.
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Any tips? I get slightly supply blocked did that lose me the game or was it something else? Maybe I shouldn't expand at all and just warp in mass units? My read was a likely 3 rax expand since his unit count seemed low, I assumed he was going to pressure so I did focus on immortals and stalkers.