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Ok so the pcb's, are they plug in play? I work in electronics so I've seen many type of plug in connectors. That board just looks huge!
How much does a pcb run? You also mentioned getting a cartridge? So to dumb it down for me, this thing accepts both pcb and neo geo style( and evidently other arcade companies) cartridges?
Ive always wanted to do a micro atx nes arcade system, but this is neat.
Oh and do you have the pissality? Is it censored in any way?
The PCBs are indeed just plug and play. All a supergun is, is routing the pins on the arcade PCB to the correct parts of an arcade machine. I.E. the power supply, an RGB encoder, and sound out.
The cart is for the Sega ST-V. To save money, top arcade game makers would produce "arcade systems" which are just like home video game systems, except they don't come in nice boxes and they are housed in in arcade machines. Each of these arcade systems would then take proprietary cartridges.
A Neo Geo MVS is an arcade system. You buy an MVS board, then buy MVS carts and play it on your arcade machine.
Yes, it has the pissality. There is no censorship. This is the final arcade revision.
Oh and as for your other question, arcade games, the older ones at least, are dirt cheap. You can buy Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, for example, for like $60. And a CPS-2 system to plug it into is only another $50.
The Neo Geo MVS is much, much cheaper than the Neo Geo AES (the home version) despite using identical games with different pin-outs. As an example, the AES version of Metal Slug will go for over $1000, while the MVS version will go for about $25, despite them being literally identical. You can build a converter to change the pins on an MVS game and play it on the AES without a problem. The MVS system itself will run you about $60.
Oh and as for your other question, arcade games, the older ones at least, are dirt cheap. You can buy Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, for example, for like $60. And a CPS-2 system to plug it into is only another $50.
The Neo Geo MVS is much, much cheaper than the Neo Geo AES (the home version) despite using identical games with different pin-outs. As an example, the AES version of Metal Slug will go for over $1000, while the MVS version will go for about $25, despite them being literally identical. You can build a converter to change the pins on an MVS game and play it on the AES without a problem. The MVS system itself will run you about $60.
Thats pretty good to know. So as long as you have access to the housing for where everything connects, any cabinet built would basically be plug and play.
I know there are easier/cheaper ways to go about it, but I am kind of a collector myself. Own most the major systems, would like to own them all eventually.
Oh and as for your other question, arcade games, the older ones at least, are dirt cheap. You can buy Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo, for example, for like $60. And a CPS-2 system to plug it into is only another $50.
The Neo Geo MVS is much, much cheaper than the Neo Geo AES (the home version) despite using identical games with different pin-outs. As an example, the AES version of Metal Slug will go for over $1000, while the MVS version will go for about $25, despite them being literally identical. You can build a converter to change the pins on an MVS game and play it on the AES without a problem. The MVS system itself will run you about $60.
Thats pretty good to know. So as long as you have access to the housing for where everything connects, any cabinet built would basically be plug and play.
I know there are easier/cheaper ways to go about it, but I am kind of a collector myself. Own most the major systems, would like to own them all eventually.
Well, no, not all games are compatible. this standard is called JAMMA, and it was invented in the mid 80's. So really old games don't work, and additionally konami was very slow to jump on board, so stuff like the simpsons, or tmnt, or sunset riders... not jamma compatible. BUT they sell konami->jamma adaptors, among others, like sega's system 16->jamma, atari->jamma, etc.
Additionally, the jamma standard only supports 3 buttons + start. any game which uses more than 3 buttons is classified as "Jamma+" which is a catch-all term. Essentially, these boards had a small, extra port for a proprietary wiring for extra buttons. This proprietary wiring is called a kick harness. That means that the Neo Geo MVS, for example, is actually jamma+.
Nearly every manufacturer had it's own properitary kick harness. Which means, say, a Street Fighter 2 cabinet wouldn't work with Mortal Kombat 3 without reworking.
That said, assuming you know the concept well enough, you can build all the extra kick-harnesses into a supergun (which is what I'm doing) and have swappable ports for specific games. Most major game lines have reusable kick harnesses. Mortal Kombat 2, 3, and ultimate, for example, all use the same harness. And all CPS-2 games use the same harness as well. And, obviously, all MVS games use the same harness.
That said, Sega fucking rules for adhering strictly to the Jamma standard aaaaaaalll the way until the naomi. Meaning anything pre-dreamcast, if it's arcade and by sega, it'll work like a champ with any supergun. There's a reason why virtua fighter only used 3 buttons. And for good reason - sega was a MAJOR player in the creation of JAMMA (japanese amusement machine manufacturers association).
Oh, and don't forget to wire up a coin and start button, and a service button. Most boards will let you set the game to freeplay with dipswitches (or in most midway cases, via a service menu accessible by pressing the service button), but some games have no freeplay option, so if you lack a coin button, you're SOL.
Thank you for the explanation. I get it now. I think I'll do a pc machine first, then maybe delve into this for a tv set up.I know in between (if I ever do it) is a real pinball machine though
Thank you for the explanation. I get it now. I think I'll do a pc machine first, then maybe delve into this for a tv set up.I know in between (if I ever do it) is a real pinball machine though
Man, I'm an idea guy. I'm always kicking around a few ideas in my head for kick-ass projects, and I always have 1 or 2 projects going on at all times. I actually get to and finish my projects though. I'd been thinking about building a supergun for a few years, and recently within the last few weeks very seriously.
anyways, a project I got in my head is building a pinball machine that houses a PC. Lay a 32" flat screen tv with the bezel removed vertically into a box, with a 17" monitor on the back bezel for the score. Then run pinmame and make one pinball machine into hundreds.
I ordered an RGB->VGA encoder card which I plan on including in my supergun. This one:
This is a sweet encoder card, as it not only converts the video, but it also includes an OSD that lets you fine tune the picture on your screen.
I also ordered a jamma connection extender harness
Such an extender is important to me because, A) I plan on building a shelf into my console like the Supernova for the board to actually rest on, which requires a loos harness, and it is what will actually enable me to install the RGB->VGA encoder.
To understand what I mean, you need to first understand how jamma and these arcade boards work. You might think that the supergun is a sort of console, and that you're simply taking the game and plugging it in. In actuality, the reverse is a more apt analogy. Each arcade PCB is it's own console. A video game console, like the sega genesis, includes it's sound processor, it's main CPU, input ports for controls, and power input. It has everything except for a physical game, which is what is swappable out. An arcade pcb is everything in the genesis PLUS the game, permanently built in.
The difference is how everything connects to the game. On a sega genesis, everything that plugs into the system uses a consumer-grade universal connection. I.E. there is a standard plug for power to go into, the controller ports are db15 ports, the video is a normal cable. On an arcade board, it's connection is something most consumers never interact with - it's the jamma connection.
The pins on the bottom left side of this board are all the inputs for the arcade pcb. That one plug is combination power input, controller inputs, sound connections, and video connections. The connection on the board is split up to a number of pins, and each pin is a different connection. The pin-out for the jamma standard is as follows:
As you can see, pins M, N, 12, 13, and 14 carry the video information, already split into RGB. Thus if I split the corresponding wires on the jamma extender harness, I can reroute the video to a separate board. This is important because I still plan on using the vogatek mk V to do sound encoding as well as for power supply and controller connections.
Wow TSR. I've always been incredibly interested in building my own cabinet, and your results and information are damn inspiring.
In your example pictures you show what looks like a console that you would seat boards in. I'm completely unfamiliar with the specifics of this, but wouldn't putting this into a confined space limit you to one architecture unless you opened it up and rewired the whole shebang? What I'm getting at is, isn't there enough room in an arcade cabinet to hold multiple architectures on top of the PC as long as cooling is sufficient?
You may just be doing this purely because you fucking can, and that amazes me, I was just curious about the utility for a person who would like access many arcade games without having to switch around PCBs and harnesses when I feel like changing platforms.
And before anyone gets infracted for bringing up MAME, please don't.
This thread is great, and I'm curious about any other gaming related projects you've partaken in.
Wow TSR. I've always been incredibly interested in building my own cabinet, and your results and information are damn inspiring.
In your example pictures you show what looks like a console that you would seat boards in. I'm completely unfamiliar with the specifics of this, but wouldn't putting this into a confined space limit you to one architecture unless you opened it up and rewired the whole shebang? What I'm getting at is, isn't there enough room in an arcade cabinet to hold multiple architectures on top of the PC as long as cooling is sufficient?
I'm afraid I don't understand your question? could you clarify?
You may just be doing this purely because you fucking can
Pretty much, I have the ability, the skill, and the money to build something like this, along with the desire, so i figured why not?
This thread is great, and I'm curious about any other gaming related projects you've partaken in.
I'm waiting for mod permission to see if I can show off my HTPC next.
TheSonicRetard on
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Madpandasuburbs west of chicagoRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Is that frontend hyperspin? The sound effects are familiar.
I'll get pictures of my supergun setup eventually, right now in the process of making covers for my crap ton of loose retro carts, so waiting to finish that before taking pictures of the whole game room.
Is that frontend hyperspin? The sound effects are familiar.
I'll get pictures of my supergun setup eventually, right now in the process of making covers for my crap ton of loose retro carts, so waiting to finish that before taking pictures of the whole game room.
Indeed it is! I found out about hyperspin while researching what those retrocade machines use. I thought they used a proprietary frontend, and I was shocked when I found out hyperspin is freeware.
A few days ago the extender harness and the video encoder arrived and I'm currently wiring it all up. I bought myself a barrier strip rather than straight splicing the video signal from the jamma board so that way I'll be able to swap out stuff if necessary without much trouble. I also bought an extra large barrier strip since I'll be rewiring the controls in the future.
Everything all together. On the left is the video encoder with an adapter I built to connect the video to the harness. Normally you'd simply solder the red, blue, green, ground, sync, and +5 to the encoder and it'd work, but in this case I'm running a couple of 12-gauge wires to it, which are then running to a barrier strip.
On the right is the supergun connected to the jamma harness extender. For all intent and purposes, that is the "cartridge slot" for lack of better words.
upclose of the barrier strip running to the video encoder. The jamma harness obviously isn't connected yet.
the harness extender connected to the supergun.
The edge of the jamma extender harness. The bitch is all in chinese! But luckily, since I speak japanese, reading the info on the strip is possible. I'm posting this just to drive the point home about how similar to a cartridge input this is... it reminds me of the game genie, or the zero-force insertion mechanism from the NES.
I have a dinner date later, but before tonight ends I should get it up and running and snap some pictures of the new video encoder working.
Everything is wired up now, you can see the video encoder spliced onto the jamma harness via the terminal strip. This should make it obvious as to why the harness extender was important to this, because it's really the easiest way to swap in and out parts. What you see above is essentially the entire innards for this supergun, the next step is to build it into a nice box.
So an update to this long-running project: I purchased a Happ competition 8-way joystick and 8 buttons today (6 face, start and coin) along with a capcom CPS2 A board and X-men vs Street Fighter, all for under $100.
When this arrives, I'll detail the steps towards connecting a kick harness to this setup (needed for more than 3 buttons) and I'll start talking about how to construct the box for this baby.
So an update to this long-running project: I purchased a Happ competition 8-way joystick and 8 buttons today (6 face, start and coin) along with a capcom CPS2 A board and X-men vs Street Fighter, all for under $100.
When this arrives, I'll detail the steps towards connecting a kick harness to this setup (needed for more than 3 buttons) and I'll start talking about how to construct the box for this baby.
Will be interested in both of those updates.
Going to be redoing mine a bit soon to accommodate a 4 slot mvs board, and will be doing cps2 stuff via a mvs->jamma adapater in the future. Hoping i can do everything control wise with db-15 ports.
What are you planning on making the enclosure out of?
I just picked up Alien vs Predator for $100, and Marvel vs Capcom for $75 as well.
I'm gonna build the case out of wood - if you look at the cabinet pictures above, I'm pretty good with wood work. I'll cover the wood with the same moulding I have on my arcade machine. For the shape, I've been considering basically the same shape as the neo geo AES, except with some risers coming out of the front and back to support a plexiglass shelf on top for me to place the PCBs. Primal Rage is actually among the largest arcade games ever released, so if my shelf can support it, it can support anything.
I wanted to build up a collection before I encased it, though, so I could test out the weight of the shelf. These CPS2 carts are about the size of 2 keyboards put together, but they're supposed to be significantly heavier than primal rage. So we'll see.
Oh, as to your point about the DB-15 ports, you probably are gonna want to have 2 DB-15 ports per controller. 1 to support standard Neo Geo controllers, and the other one which will basically be connected directly to your kick harness. when you build your 6-button controller, just have they joystick and buttons 1-4 running through the main DB-15 port (i.e. the one you'd plug your neo geo controller into) and have buttons 5 & 6 and start and coin on the other port.
This is the most workable solution I've found, as it'll let you play a variety of games on your supergun. Also, depending on how you wire your second DB-15 port, you can connect multiple kick-harnesses to it to even further support more games. Like wire the buttons different from one harness to another, so that way you can support 6 button capcom games, 5 button midway games, 6 button nintendo games, etc.
Today a MAS supernova fell into my lap for a price I couldn't refuse ($150 with 2 sticks and VGA out mod) so looks like I'm pretty much abandoning the plans to physically build this unit. MAS is one of the oldest supergun manufacturers, and they went out of business nearly 7 years ago. The Supernova is pretty much the best known supergun around, so I'm pretty happy that I'm not buying some random japanese unit (the only commercial ones I'd consider were MAS supernova and the Vega lines).
Maaan came here to post that MAS was doing ok two years ago or so. I know they were doing well when SF4 came out, but now I see that they've shut down now. So sad.
Maaan came here to post that MAS was doing ok two years ago or so. I know they were doing well when SF4 came out, but now I see that they've shut down now. So sad.
You must be mistaken, you can find posts on Assembler dating back to 2005 where people are asking how to service their supernova following MAS' closure.
Well I found out what the deal with this supergun and MAS is - turns out MAS, the company, has been out of business for years. However, the two owners of MAS still make superguns, specifically their Supernova model, and they sell periodically on sites like ebay, assembler, etc. They're not longer mass produced, and instead each one is hand made. Which is cool because I'm able to customize my controller colors.
Incidentally, I JUST won an auction for a Sega Naomi with Marvel vs Capcom 2 for $200. And I just put out a feeler bid on a Sega Lindbergh with Virtua Fighter 5. I expect the Lindbergh to go well out of my price range, but I'm willing to drop $1300 on that thing.
The CPS2 arrived yesterday, but only one game so far - X-men vs street fighter. The MAS Supernova hasn't arrived yet, and I dont have a capcom kick harness yet so I can't test it out, but it is neat to look at. This isn't like any arcade board I've ever seen. Most other arcade boards look like exposed motherboards, or lack a sheen that makes them look consumer grade. My Sega STV for example looks like a sega genesis without a case. And while the Neo Geo AES might look nice in a console style case, the MVs model looked like an NES sans case.
But the CPS2 is different. It feels like they could have slightly repackaged it and sole it as a home console. capcom only made one video game console in all their existance - the capcom cp changer. it was incredibly niche, but it is th capcom equivalent of the Neo Geo AES. The CP Changer was based off of the CPS1, which itself looked more like a standard arcade board with a minimal shell. However, the CP Changer packaged everything in a nice consumer grade shell. Shortly after the CP Changer's death, capccom released the CPS2, and its casing was heavily influenced by the cp changer.
The main difference between the CPS2 and a traditional console and even the Neo Geo AES is its size. The actual "console", called the CPS2 A board, isn't very big itself. It's a little bit shorter than a Sega Genesis with a Sega CD Model 2 attached, and it's actually very thin.
The... front? Of the CPS2 A board has a jamma connector, a Capcom kickharness connector, and 2 stereo outputs. The jamma connector is where you attach a supergun to the unit, I currently have an extender harness in it. The kick harness is where you wire up additional buttons to your controller, because the jamma standard only allows for 3 buttons.
The stereo output bypasses the mono output on the jamma harness, and the volume is controlled by a couple of buttons on the side. The back of the unit has a large fan to cool the thing.
The entire top of the A board is the connector for the "cartridge" called a CPS2 B board. B boards sit on top of the A-board, and they're connected via 4 sets of pins at the corners of each board. There is a key notch on both boards in the corner that ensures you cannot connect it the wrong way.
The cartridges for the CPS2 are enormous. They're not as big as, say, the Primal Rage PCB, but they're much bigger than any other cart I've ever seen. Here is a size comparison:
That's x-men vs street fighter next to a neo geo aes, an snes, and a sega genesis game. You can see the CPS2 cart dwarfs them all. The color of the cartridge denotes it's region coding - the cps2 is region coded. Blue is US, I have a US console. Japan is green and europe is yellow. My copy of Marvel vs Capcom is coming in a green cart which has been changed to all regions.
So that's it, not much I can do until the super gun arrives, but I thought I'd give a peak into a technology most haven't seen before.
So I'm kind of curious. When it comes to the CPS2 boards, if you take a game like Dungeons and Dragons that only used (if I remember right) four buttons, would you be able to use it with the Vogatek MkV board without any problems/modifications? I've been toying with the idea of getting that particular supergun in particular, and the two things I've really been wanting it for is an MVS board, and the Capcom D&D titles.
So I'm kind of curious. When it comes to the CPS2 boards, if you take a game like Dungeons and Dragons that only used (if I remember right) four buttons, would you be able to use it with the Vogatek MkV board without any problems/modifications? I've been toying with the idea of getting that particular supergun in particular, and the two things I've really been wanting it for is an MVS board, and the Capcom D&D titles.
Sorry for the long delay before reply, I only now just saw this post.
NO! That actually won't work. See, the Jamma standard only supports 3 buttons, plus start, which is the reason the Sega Genesis had 3 buttons (it was built for arcade ports, after all). Now, when Jamma was being decided, the Neo Geo MVS was also in development, so they introduced this special version of Jamma known as Jamma+, which includes an unused pin for Neo Geo games. A standard jamma harness is not the same as a Neo Geo Jamma+ harness.
That said, the 4 button on the jamma harness was ONLY used by the Neo Geo. Later, as 5-button (Mortal Kombat) and 6-button (Capcom) games came about, they released what are known as kick harnesses to wire up buttons 4-6. Button 4, in this case, is NOT wired up via the Jamma+ harness. Confusingly, games which use kick harnesses are said to also be Jamma+, but they're not the same as the Neo Geo MVS jamma+.
Realistically, however, there are only 2 kick harnesses you'll ever need. You'll need a Midway MK3 kick harness if you ever want to get into mortal kombat, killer instinct, etc, and you'll need a CPS2 kick harness if you ever want to play capcom games. There are a few, very special kick harnesses for specific games (like MK1, or all CPS3 games) but for the most part, those two kick harnesses will get you through gaming.
that said, Sega is actually awesome in this regard because, to this day, their standard arcade stuff is still made with strict Jamma guidelines. 3 buttons will get you through almost every sega game ever, save the few that use steering wheels, track balls, or other special controllers. Being the undisputed king of arcade all time, they pretty much are the poster boy for Jamma.
Speaking of the board you're talking about, I actually have the MK V. It's a good board, and if you read this thread, it was what I was going to build my whole supergun around before I had a Supernova fall into my lap. If you know how arcade buttons work, it's a snap to wire up additional buttons for CPS2 games, and in fact, you can even build your own kick harness if you know what you're doing. If you'd like, I could go into more detail about the MK V. From what I've found, it's one of the best pieces of beginner supergun hardware out there. It comes highly recommended on Assembler for people looking for their first go at getting a supergun.
The best supergun out there at the moment seems to be the Sigma, however. They build large, metal super guns which look like arcade control panels from a candy cab, 2 players, and are said to be extreme quality. I went with a supernova because they were pretty much the first commercial supergun, and the dude who is making mine is the actual former owner of the company who is building it from scratch, so I can add in custom parts (I added a VGA output board, CPS2, MK, and CPS3 kick harnesses, and customized the colors on my controllers).
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ViscountalphaThe pen is mightier than the swordhttp://youtu.be/G_sBOsh-vyIRegistered Userregular
Don't forget to get your CPS2 boards de-suicided. They have a memory chip that eventually fails and when it does. the cps2 board becomes unusuable. However, there is a guy fixing these boards and un-suiciding them still.
As a bit of a sidenote, TSR, have you dabbled in miniature arcade cabs at all? I've been toying with the idea of building one, either out of one of those plug-and-play units or a small console, and if anybody would know their way around the things, I figure it'd be you.
Just got an update that MAS has completed my supernova with the modifications I've requested and they shipped it out today. I should have it sometime this week.
Don't forget to get your CPS2 boards de-suicided. They have a memory chip that eventually fails and when it does. the cps2 board becomes unusuable. However, there is a guy fixing these boards and un-suiciding them still.
My CPS2 boards are phoenixed, meaning they died at one point, but have been brought back to life and don't need to be de-suicided. They can never suicide again. I've been making it a sticking point to only buy phoenixed boards or de-suicided ones. That has meant I've had to pass up on several good priced CPS2 boards because they have batteries.
The guy over at CPS Shock will still phoenix a board for you on request, but I'd like to avoid the hassel of shipping out a game to get it fixed.
As a bit of a sidenote, TSR, have you dabbled in miniature arcade cabs at all? I've been toying with the idea of building one, either out of one of those plug-and-play units or a small console, and if anybody would know their way around the things, I figure it'd be you.
That's what this topic is about. A supergun is a tiny arcade machine without the monitor, wired to be hooked up like a standard console. I was building one early in the topic (and I still have it here in my place) but I've since bought a commercial one from one of the earliest supergun manufacturers - Mas Supernova.
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Madpandasuburbs west of chicagoRegistered Userregular
I've passed up a few cps2 boards for the same reason. Almost bit on a decently priced gigawing or mars matrix, but decided against it. I don't even have the A board or the supergun reconfigured for mvs yet. Waiting to find a nice 4 slot mvs first.
Hearing the dimensions are similar to a gen + sega cd is helpful, i was kind of worried about that. How much do you think an a+b combo weighs roughly?
I've passed up a few cps2 boards for the same reason. Almost bit on a decently priced gigawing or mars matrix, but decided against it. I don't even have the A board or the supergun reconfigured for mvs yet. Waiting to find a nice 4 slot mvs first.
Hearing the dimensions are similar to a gen + sega cd is helpful, i was kind of worried about that. How much do you think an a+b combo weighs roughly?
Oh man I'm terrible at judging weight, but I'd say it weighs less than a Genesis 1 + Sega CD 2.
Don't forget you'll need an actual supergun too. I've seen some which are extremely tiny, intending to just be a link between the board and the tv, but the supernova is huge. It's built like a shelf so you can set gameboards ontop of it. That makes it very large.
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Madpandasuburbs west of chicagoRegistered Userregular
I have a home built supergun already, it is approximately this big
+ a standard pc power supply just hanging out there.
without even clicking that link, I'm guessing a shoebox sized Radio Shack Project box?
those things are so useful, but damn are they ugly. There's a place down the road from my condo that sells these nice project boxes made from plexiglass.
As a newbie to arcade stuff building (I've been working on a custom stick recently, so I've done some research and gotten some decent knowledge of arcade systems in the process) this is pretty great. I've always personally wanted a Japanese-style cabinet like a Taito Vewlix or Sega Lindbergh, personally.
As a bit of a sidenote, TSR, have you dabbled in miniature arcade cabs at all? I've been toying with the idea of building one, either out of one of those plug-and-play units or a small console, and if anybody would know their way around the things, I figure it'd be you.
That's what this topic is about. A supergun is a tiny arcade machine without the monitor, wired to be hooked up like a standard console. I was building one early in the topic (and I still have it here in my place) but I've since bought a commercial one from one of the earliest supergun manufacturers - Mas Supernova.
Well, I mean a full itsy bitsy cabinet, not a rig to cut the cabinet itself out of the equation. :P Like a little half-size cabinet, or the micro-sized ones I've seen some people make out of handhelds.
As a newbie to arcade stuff building (I've been working on a custom stick recently, so I've done some research and gotten some decent knowledge of arcade systems in the process) this is pretty great. I've always personally wanted a Japanese-style cabinet like a Taito Vewlix or Sega Lindbergh, personally.
I'm looking to buy a Sega Lindbergh right now, actually. I know a few for sale already, but they're too rich for my blood right now. I think if I hold out a while, a nice deal might come my way eventually.
However, the next arcade board I'm likely to turn my attention to for the immediate future is the atomiswave. I have the naomi 2, I have the SNK Neo Geo AES and MVS, the atomiswave is the next logical progression. i'd be interested in finding an atomiswave with Neo Geo Battle Colosseum or one of the metal slugs
One thing that sucks about collecting modern arcade boards is that, A) they increasingly less and less are jamma compliant, and you normally have to purchase several parts and finding a whole set is hard. Finding a complete naomi 2, with all the boards, was a bitch.
Stuff like the Lindbergh is basically a self-contained PC. The atomiswave was pretty much the last, true, custom dedicated arcade hardware. Everything else is pretty much off-the-shelf pc parts now.
As a bit of a sidenote, TSR, have you dabbled in miniature arcade cabs at all? I've been toying with the idea of building one, either out of one of those plug-and-play units or a small console, and if anybody would know their way around the things, I figure it'd be you.
That's what this topic is about. A supergun is a tiny arcade machine without the monitor, wired to be hooked up like a standard console. I was building one early in the topic (and I still have it here in my place) but I've since bought a commercial one from one of the earliest supergun manufacturers - Mas Supernova.
Well, I mean a full itsy bitsy cabinet, not a rig to cut the cabinet itself out of the equation. :P Like a little half-size cabinet, or the micro-sized ones I've seen some people make out of handhelds.
You mean like a tabletop cabinet?
That's a whole other scene. With people who restore arcade cabinets, they tend to stick to what they remember most about arcades. I never really experienced candy cabs or tabletops, all the arcade machines I ever played were huge wooden boxes like the one I own. So, while I haven't dabbled with tabletops, several others have and are willing to help at places like build your own arcade controls: http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade.http
Posts
The PCBs are indeed just plug and play. All a supergun is, is routing the pins on the arcade PCB to the correct parts of an arcade machine. I.E. the power supply, an RGB encoder, and sound out.
The cart is for the Sega ST-V. To save money, top arcade game makers would produce "arcade systems" which are just like home video game systems, except they don't come in nice boxes and they are housed in in arcade machines. Each of these arcade systems would then take proprietary cartridges.
A Neo Geo MVS is an arcade system. You buy an MVS board, then buy MVS carts and play it on your arcade machine.
Yes, it has the pissality. There is no censorship. This is the final arcade revision.
The Neo Geo MVS is much, much cheaper than the Neo Geo AES (the home version) despite using identical games with different pin-outs. As an example, the AES version of Metal Slug will go for over $1000, while the MVS version will go for about $25, despite them being literally identical. You can build a converter to change the pins on an MVS game and play it on the AES without a problem. The MVS system itself will run you about $60.
Thats pretty good to know. So as long as you have access to the housing for where everything connects, any cabinet built would basically be plug and play.
I know there are easier/cheaper ways to go about it, but I am kind of a collector myself. Own most the major systems, would like to own them all eventually.
Well, no, not all games are compatible. this standard is called JAMMA, and it was invented in the mid 80's. So really old games don't work, and additionally konami was very slow to jump on board, so stuff like the simpsons, or tmnt, or sunset riders... not jamma compatible. BUT they sell konami->jamma adaptors, among others, like sega's system 16->jamma, atari->jamma, etc.
Additionally, the jamma standard only supports 3 buttons + start. any game which uses more than 3 buttons is classified as "Jamma+" which is a catch-all term. Essentially, these boards had a small, extra port for a proprietary wiring for extra buttons. This proprietary wiring is called a kick harness. That means that the Neo Geo MVS, for example, is actually jamma+.
Nearly every manufacturer had it's own properitary kick harness. Which means, say, a Street Fighter 2 cabinet wouldn't work with Mortal Kombat 3 without reworking.
That said, assuming you know the concept well enough, you can build all the extra kick-harnesses into a supergun (which is what I'm doing) and have swappable ports for specific games. Most major game lines have reusable kick harnesses. Mortal Kombat 2, 3, and ultimate, for example, all use the same harness. And all CPS-2 games use the same harness as well. And, obviously, all MVS games use the same harness.
That said, Sega fucking rules for adhering strictly to the Jamma standard aaaaaaalll the way until the naomi. Meaning anything pre-dreamcast, if it's arcade and by sega, it'll work like a champ with any supergun. There's a reason why virtua fighter only used 3 buttons. And for good reason - sega was a MAJOR player in the creation of JAMMA (japanese amusement machine manufacturers association).
Oh, and don't forget to wire up a coin and start button, and a service button. Most boards will let you set the game to freeplay with dipswitches (or in most midway cases, via a service menu accessible by pressing the service button), but some games have no freeplay option, so if you lack a coin button, you're SOL.
Man, I'm an idea guy. I'm always kicking around a few ideas in my head for kick-ass projects, and I always have 1 or 2 projects going on at all times. I actually get to and finish my projects though. I'd been thinking about building a supergun for a few years, and recently within the last few weeks very seriously.
anyways, a project I got in my head is building a pinball machine that houses a PC. Lay a 32" flat screen tv with the bezel removed vertically into a box, with a 17" monitor on the back bezel for the score. Then run pinmame and make one pinball machine into hundreds.
(Adams family, so many good memories with it at the local pizza place)
I keep dragging this off topic but youve done/ thought about doing things I've been wanting to do!
This is a sweet encoder card, as it not only converts the video, but it also includes an OSD that lets you fine tune the picture on your screen.
I also ordered a jamma connection extender harness
Such an extender is important to me because, A) I plan on building a shelf into my console like the Supernova for the board to actually rest on, which requires a loos harness, and
To understand what I mean, you need to first understand how jamma and these arcade boards work. You might think that the supergun is a sort of console, and that you're simply taking the game and plugging it in. In actuality, the reverse is a more apt analogy. Each arcade PCB is it's own console. A video game console, like the sega genesis, includes it's sound processor, it's main CPU, input ports for controls, and power input. It has everything except for a physical game, which is what is swappable out. An arcade pcb is everything in the genesis PLUS the game, permanently built in.
The difference is how everything connects to the game. On a sega genesis, everything that plugs into the system uses a consumer-grade universal connection. I.E. there is a standard plug for power to go into, the controller ports are db15 ports, the video is a normal cable. On an arcade board, it's connection is something most consumers never interact with - it's the jamma connection.
The pins on the bottom left side of this board are all the inputs for the arcade pcb. That one plug is combination power input, controller inputs, sound connections, and video connections. The connection on the board is split up to a number of pins, and each pin is a different connection. The pin-out for the jamma standard is as follows:
As you can see, pins M, N, 12, 13, and 14 carry the video information, already split into RGB. Thus if I split the corresponding wires on the jamma extender harness, I can reroute the video to a separate board. This is important because I still plan on using the vogatek mk V to do sound encoding as well as for power supply and controller connections.
In your example pictures you show what looks like a console that you would seat boards in. I'm completely unfamiliar with the specifics of this, but wouldn't putting this into a confined space limit you to one architecture unless you opened it up and rewired the whole shebang? What I'm getting at is, isn't there enough room in an arcade cabinet to hold multiple architectures on top of the PC as long as cooling is sufficient?
You may just be doing this purely because you fucking can, and that amazes me, I was just curious about the utility for a person who would like access many arcade games without having to switch around PCBs and harnesses when I feel like changing platforms.
And before anyone gets infracted for bringing up MAME, please don't.
This thread is great, and I'm curious about any other gaming related projects you've partaken in.
I've been waiting for mod permission to post a video of the menu and game selection screen for my cabinet, and I just got it, so check this out:
Link!
Every game has it's own art, complete with music, video, and sound effects.
I'm afraid I don't understand your question? could you clarify?
Pretty much, I have the ability, the skill, and the money to build something like this, along with the desire, so i figured why not?
I'm waiting for mod permission to see if I can show off my HTPC next.
I'll get pictures of my supergun setup eventually, right now in the process of making covers for my crap ton of loose retro carts, so waiting to finish that before taking pictures of the whole game room.
Steam/PSN/XBL/Minecraft / LoL / - Benevicious | WoW - Duckwood - Rajhek
Indeed it is! I found out about hyperspin while researching what those retrocade machines use. I thought they used a proprietary frontend, and I was shocked when I found out hyperspin is freeware.
Everything all together. On the left is the video encoder with an adapter I built to connect the video to the harness. Normally you'd simply solder the red, blue, green, ground, sync, and +5 to the encoder and it'd work, but in this case I'm running a couple of 12-gauge wires to it, which are then running to a barrier strip.
On the right is the supergun connected to the jamma harness extender. For all intent and purposes, that is the "cartridge slot" for lack of better words.
upclose of the barrier strip running to the video encoder. The jamma harness obviously isn't connected yet.
the harness extender connected to the supergun.
The edge of the jamma extender harness. The bitch is all in chinese! But luckily, since I speak japanese, reading the info on the strip is possible. I'm posting this just to drive the point home about how similar to a cartridge input this is... it reminds me of the game genie, or the zero-force insertion mechanism from the NES.
I have a dinner date later, but before tonight ends I should get it up and running and snap some pictures of the new video encoder working.
Everything is wired up now, you can see the video encoder spliced onto the jamma harness via the terminal strip. This should make it obvious as to why the harness extender was important to this, because it's really the easiest way to swap in and out parts. What you see above is essentially the entire innards for this supergun, the next step is to build it into a nice box.
When this arrives, I'll detail the steps towards connecting a kick harness to this setup (needed for more than 3 buttons) and I'll start talking about how to construct the box for this baby.
I keep clicking on it and expecting to see talk about turning a nerf gun into a particle cannon or something.
Will be interested in both of those updates.
Going to be redoing mine a bit soon to accommodate a 4 slot mvs board, and will be doing cps2 stuff via a mvs->jamma adapater in the future. Hoping i can do everything control wise with db-15 ports.
What are you planning on making the enclosure out of?
Steam/PSN/XBL/Minecraft / LoL / - Benevicious | WoW - Duckwood - Rajhek
I'm gonna build the case out of wood - if you look at the cabinet pictures above, I'm pretty good with wood work. I'll cover the wood with the same moulding I have on my arcade machine. For the shape, I've been considering basically the same shape as the neo geo AES, except with some risers coming out of the front and back to support a plexiglass shelf on top for me to place the PCBs. Primal Rage is actually among the largest arcade games ever released, so if my shelf can support it, it can support anything.
I wanted to build up a collection before I encased it, though, so I could test out the weight of the shelf. These CPS2 carts are about the size of 2 keyboards put together, but they're supposed to be significantly heavier than primal rage. So we'll see.
This is the most workable solution I've found, as it'll let you play a variety of games on your supergun. Also, depending on how you wire your second DB-15 port, you can connect multiple kick-harnesses to it to even further support more games. Like wire the buttons different from one harness to another, so that way you can support 6 button capcom games, 5 button midway games, 6 button nintendo games, etc.
I'll snap some pictures when it arrives.
FFBE: 898,311,440
Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/dElementalor
You must be mistaken, you can find posts on Assembler dating back to 2005 where people are asking how to service their supernova following MAS' closure.
And, sure enough, their website is dead: http://www.massystems.com/
What's weird, though, is the guy who I'm buying it from claims it's being built to my specs right now. Maybe MAS is still operating in some capacity?
I've been meaning to put a super gun together but its far too low on my priority list.
Incidentally, I JUST won an auction for a Sega Naomi with Marvel vs Capcom 2 for $200. And I just put out a feeler bid on a Sega Lindbergh with Virtua Fighter 5. I expect the Lindbergh to go well out of my price range, but I'm willing to drop $1300 on that thing.
But the CPS2 is different. It feels like they could have slightly repackaged it and sole it as a home console. capcom only made one video game console in all their existance - the capcom cp changer. it was incredibly niche, but it is th capcom equivalent of the Neo Geo AES. The CP Changer was based off of the CPS1, which itself looked more like a standard arcade board with a minimal shell. However, the CP Changer packaged everything in a nice consumer grade shell. Shortly after the CP Changer's death, capccom released the CPS2, and its casing was heavily influenced by the cp changer.
The main difference between the CPS2 and a traditional console and even the Neo Geo AES is its size. The actual "console", called the CPS2 A board, isn't very big itself. It's a little bit shorter than a Sega Genesis with a Sega CD Model 2 attached, and it's actually very thin.
The... front? Of the CPS2 A board has a jamma connector, a Capcom kickharness connector, and 2 stereo outputs. The jamma connector is where you attach a supergun to the unit, I currently have an extender harness in it. The kick harness is where you wire up additional buttons to your controller, because the jamma standard only allows for 3 buttons.
The stereo output bypasses the mono output on the jamma harness, and the volume is controlled by a couple of buttons on the side. The back of the unit has a large fan to cool the thing.
The entire top of the A board is the connector for the "cartridge" called a CPS2 B board. B boards sit on top of the A-board, and they're connected via 4 sets of pins at the corners of each board. There is a key notch on both boards in the corner that ensures you cannot connect it the wrong way.
The cartridges for the CPS2 are enormous. They're not as big as, say, the Primal Rage PCB, but they're much bigger than any other cart I've ever seen. Here is a size comparison:
That's x-men vs street fighter next to a neo geo aes, an snes, and a sega genesis game. You can see the CPS2 cart dwarfs them all. The color of the cartridge denotes it's region coding - the cps2 is region coded. Blue is US, I have a US console. Japan is green and europe is yellow. My copy of Marvel vs Capcom is coming in a green cart which has been changed to all regions.
So that's it, not much I can do until the super gun arrives, but I thought I'd give a peak into a technology most haven't seen before.
Sorry for the long delay before reply, I only now just saw this post.
NO! That actually won't work. See, the Jamma standard only supports 3 buttons, plus start, which is the reason the Sega Genesis had 3 buttons (it was built for arcade ports, after all). Now, when Jamma was being decided, the Neo Geo MVS was also in development, so they introduced this special version of Jamma known as Jamma+, which includes an unused pin for Neo Geo games. A standard jamma harness is not the same as a Neo Geo Jamma+ harness.
That said, the 4 button on the jamma harness was ONLY used by the Neo Geo. Later, as 5-button (Mortal Kombat) and 6-button (Capcom) games came about, they released what are known as kick harnesses to wire up buttons 4-6. Button 4, in this case, is NOT wired up via the Jamma+ harness. Confusingly, games which use kick harnesses are said to also be Jamma+, but they're not the same as the Neo Geo MVS jamma+.
Realistically, however, there are only 2 kick harnesses you'll ever need. You'll need a Midway MK3 kick harness if you ever want to get into mortal kombat, killer instinct, etc, and you'll need a CPS2 kick harness if you ever want to play capcom games. There are a few, very special kick harnesses for specific games (like MK1, or all CPS3 games) but for the most part, those two kick harnesses will get you through gaming.
that said, Sega is actually awesome in this regard because, to this day, their standard arcade stuff is still made with strict Jamma guidelines. 3 buttons will get you through almost every sega game ever, save the few that use steering wheels, track balls, or other special controllers. Being the undisputed king of arcade all time, they pretty much are the poster boy for Jamma.
Speaking of the board you're talking about, I actually have the MK V. It's a good board, and if you read this thread, it was what I was going to build my whole supergun around before I had a Supernova fall into my lap. If you know how arcade buttons work, it's a snap to wire up additional buttons for CPS2 games, and in fact, you can even build your own kick harness if you know what you're doing. If you'd like, I could go into more detail about the MK V. From what I've found, it's one of the best pieces of beginner supergun hardware out there. It comes highly recommended on Assembler for people looking for their first go at getting a supergun.
The best supergun out there at the moment seems to be the Sigma, however. They build large, metal super guns which look like arcade control panels from a candy cab, 2 players, and are said to be extreme quality. I went with a supernova because they were pretty much the first commercial supergun, and the dude who is making mine is the actual former owner of the company who is building it from scratch, so I can add in custom parts (I added a VGA output board, CPS2, MK, and CPS3 kick harnesses, and customized the colors on my controllers).
Fuck I'm stoked.
My CPS2 boards are phoenixed, meaning they died at one point, but have been brought back to life and don't need to be de-suicided. They can never suicide again. I've been making it a sticking point to only buy phoenixed boards or de-suicided ones. That has meant I've had to pass up on several good priced CPS2 boards because they have batteries.
The guy over at CPS Shock will still phoenix a board for you on request, but I'd like to avoid the hassel of shipping out a game to get it fixed.
That's what this topic is about. A supergun is a tiny arcade machine without the monitor, wired to be hooked up like a standard console. I was building one early in the topic (and I still have it here in my place) but I've since bought a commercial one from one of the earliest supergun manufacturers - Mas Supernova.
Hearing the dimensions are similar to a gen + sega cd is helpful, i was kind of worried about that. How much do you think an a+b combo weighs roughly?
Steam/PSN/XBL/Minecraft / LoL / - Benevicious | WoW - Duckwood - Rajhek
Oh man I'm terrible at judging weight, but I'd say it weighs less than a Genesis 1 + Sega CD 2.
Don't forget you'll need an actual supergun too. I've seen some which are extremely tiny, intending to just be a link between the board and the tv, but the supernova is huge. It's built like a shelf so you can set gameboards ontop of it. That makes it very large.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062285
+ a standard pc power supply just hanging out there.
Steam/PSN/XBL/Minecraft / LoL / - Benevicious | WoW - Duckwood - Rajhek
without even clicking that link, I'm guessing a shoebox sized Radio Shack Project box?
Well, I mean a full itsy bitsy cabinet, not a rig to cut the cabinet itself out of the equation. :P Like a little half-size cabinet, or the micro-sized ones I've seen some people make out of handhelds.
I'm looking to buy a Sega Lindbergh right now, actually. I know a few for sale already, but they're too rich for my blood right now. I think if I hold out a while, a nice deal might come my way eventually.
However, the next arcade board I'm likely to turn my attention to for the immediate future is the atomiswave. I have the naomi 2, I have the SNK Neo Geo AES and MVS, the atomiswave is the next logical progression. i'd be interested in finding an atomiswave with Neo Geo Battle Colosseum or one of the metal slugs
One thing that sucks about collecting modern arcade boards is that, A) they increasingly less and less are jamma compliant, and
Stuff like the Lindbergh is basically a self-contained PC. The atomiswave was pretty much the last, true, custom dedicated arcade hardware. Everything else is pretty much off-the-shelf pc parts now.
You mean like a tabletop cabinet?
That's a whole other scene. With people who restore arcade cabinets, they tend to stick to what they remember most about arcades. I never really experienced candy cabs or tabletops, all the arcade machines I ever played were huge wooden boxes like the one I own. So, while I haven't dabbled with tabletops, several others have and are willing to help at places like build your own arcade controls:
http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade.http