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D20 and Older Bash Hour
Ace, from D20 and Older
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I am Ace, the co creator of D20 and Older.
I decided to post this thread (through the advisement of Enc) to get constructive, or even destructive, criticism regarding my work. We have been up for around a month and a half so far and are now looking for any and all advise you may have, from artwork tips to blogging tips, from "keep it ups" to "just give ups".
I have already received advice on my misogynistic nature and am now legitimately working on dulling down my blog posts to near moderately offensive content. I do respect the opinion of all other webcomic creators as well as their readers.
Here are a few sample comics.
All opinions would be greatly appreciated.
~ACE~
I decided to post this thread (through the advisement of Enc) to get constructive, or even destructive, criticism regarding my work. We have been up for around a month and a half so far and are now looking for any and all advise you may have, from artwork tips to blogging tips, from "keep it ups" to "just give ups".
I have already received advice on my misogynistic nature and am now legitimately working on dulling down my blog posts to near moderately offensive content. I do respect the opinion of all other webcomic creators as well as their readers.
Here are a few sample comics.
All opinions would be greatly appreciated.
~ACE~
Ace, from D20 and Older on
0
Posts
Also, where are you considering taking your comic? What are your goals and purpose for your writing? What methods are you using to draw your comic currently? How far forward have your written your strips (do you have any scheduled, or is it seat-of-you-pants each time)?
Thank you for saying you'll make an effort at toning down the misogyny, the blog posts make me incredibly uncomfortable and I regret surfing through to try and get a feel for your work while at work.
Here are some other comics.
This one is my favorite... it is the end to a 5 comic d&d story arc and I love the hangover style imagery.
As far as where we would like to take our comic... Straight to the top, as big as we can get it. One day maybe be one of the top 5. ( I know it is a giant goal but go big or go home I guess)
Joe uses adobe to sketchout the comics before doing his line work and underlayer coloring to finish it out. I am sure there is copy paste involved but only because right now it is an 8 hour process from concept to completion.
As far as scheduling is concerned we do have backlog ideas that are only flushed out in the day before writing sessions we share. So really it is a by the seat of our pants comic. Which leaves no room for errors.
After going back through my blogs I see what you mean, I was going for shock and aww (which got the initial glances) BUT I do not want my readership to be perverted lower class gamer culture and I feel thats all I would get returning if I followed my current path. I do have alot to say which up until this point has had to be filtered out of the crap I have been throwing into my blog for shock factor.
Big Picture
First thing you need to do is choose what you want to do with the webcomic. "Straight to the Top" isn't a strategy, that's like saying I want to buy a house by winning the lottery. Some questions you and the artist should ask for a model are the following:
1) What is our comic about/what do we want to share though this?
2) What does our comic do differently than other comics?
3) How do we convey that to our audience?
#1 is the most important. If the goal here is to make money and be famous, quit now. That model will not get you either. What you need is to choose what you want to convey, figure out what you have to offer and what you are truly interested in, and go from there. Some comics, like Penny Arcade, started with their love of video games and wanted to talk about them. Others, like The Punchline is Machismo { http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/ } wanted to discuss masculinity and tell jokes about it. Others like History {http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php}, the Rule of Cool {http://drmcninja.com/}, and epic story lines {http://www.meekcomic.com/}. There are a ton of things people are passionate about, but if you aren't passionate about your webcomic, no one else will be except those obligated to read for other reasons (close friends, family, webcomic help folk, people you troll, etc).
#2 Is the least important, but the most likely to be a factor later on if you are looking for money. You have to sell your product, and you have to have a product to sell. Currently, your comic seems to be about opinions on video games. This is approximately similar to about 20,000 other comics on the internet right now, and none are (or likely ever will be) as successful as Penny Arcade unless they started right about the same time in 1999/2000, have years of work behind them building a base, or have some sort of specific angle to draw readers. Going back up to Punchline is Machismo, that comic is very Video Game oriented, but offers a new and different view on familiar subjects. You need to do the same. Two guys talking about games is not going to win you readers, in fact, it will likely be a turn off before they even read your comic simply because folks know these jokes. You can make the 100% newest, funniest strip ever and it still won't be read due to the perception that it is a knock off. So find a unique angle, visually and topically, and go with that.
#3 Is the one new comic authors universally neglect. You may find it funny, hilarious even, but will the readers? Many of these comics are alright, some provoke a smile, but none have made me belly laugh. Did they make you laugh hard when you made them (hopefully yes, otherwise why make a comic at all?). If this is the case, then you have to ask yourself: where did the disconnect occur? What do we get that the readers don't? Is it an art problem? Is your mental image not the same as what is conveyed? Is it a writing problem? Is what is written to convoluted or complicated to convey the point? There is no easy answer here. You need to figure this out on your own, and polish polish polish each comic before putting it forward. You aren't Penny Arcade, you lack both the artistic and writing experience to make comics the way they do. Don't expect an hour chat, a couple hours of art, and bam: comedy gold. Maybe after ten years of working you can fill that model, but at the start it would be better to spend a week making one silver-quality comic than five pewter-quality.
Writing Comedy
Moving beyond this: writing is important. Once you have your angle and idea, then what? Unless you are making comics that are about current events EVERY COMIC, you should have about two to three weeks planned out minimum. I would write a dozen more comics than I have even planned to pen down and ink. Why? Because comedy has to build. The best humor strips build off of each other, introducing concepts, dropping them for a while, then digging them back up. The best way to layer is to know what you are building for.
Let’s say you have a punch-line, a great comic idea. Perfect. Keep it locked away, and write three comics that are good on their own, but build towards it. Then use that great idea as the crowning achievement. BAM better impact, better comedy. Watch some standup routines if you doubt me, Daniel Tosh is a great example as he builds a joke perfectly on this subject. Eddy Izzard is another great, all of his skits have dozens of small jokes that build to one bigger joke at the ends, often coming up in future, unrelated threads for better comedy. Penny Arcade uses this often, with each of the characters having many subplots and events to draw upon (such as the watch saga, Tycho’s animal fetish, Gabe’s terrible parenting, etc).
Let’s also take a bit to write comedy on the short term. You should make your joke as quickly as possible, with a few frames as possible to convey this. Three panel comedy is simple because, at it’s source, comedy has three parts to it:
1-Situation
2-Expectation
3-Surprise
I’ve gone into detail on these in the past, but I’m just going to sum it up quickly today. In a recent PA strip this was shown fairly straightforwardly:
In frame one we have situation, talking about a show and the usual counter of “Spoilers!” We recognize the situation, it is one that happens in most media, be it book, movie, game, or whatnot.
Frame two we have expectation: Our expectations are being built about what will happen next. Gabe brings up a point: He read the books. There are no spoilers. What will come next, a catchy reply? A snooty response? Acceptance to Gabe’s metaphor? We don’t know. Thi sis the most important step, you have to get your audience thinking.
Frame three is surprise: here the author breaks the expectation by showing a completely different alternative, often one that is absurd, to throw their readers off. Visual gags and wordplay have their highlights in this, but most comedy is based on this. Think of how this plays out with the comics shown above. With the stand up comedians mentioned above. How do they do the same thing?
Humor has as much math to it as engineering and as much practice to be good as professional golf. Keep working on it and you will get better, but it doesn’t just happen. You have to plan, research, and work hard to get there.
The Arts
This I’ll leave to the more talented folk in here. Though keep in mind they probably won’t reply until the actual artist shows up.
i) Pose - The majority of your friend's poses seem rather stiff and unnatural - characters should alter position frequently to maintain variety and react to events in more than just speech. Shock or laughter (Or indeed any emotion) is so much more easily conveyed when physically shown as well as told.
ii) Execution/Technique - Your friend makes far too much use of computer-ruled straight lines and curves instead of freehand draughtsmanship. This inevitably results in a slightly sterile and restricted quality, and throws perspective to high hell when used to imply depth. Characters desperately leap behind desks, panel cuts and doors to avoid showing their legs - weaknesses like this should be confronted rather than concealed. If your friend has any anatomical issues he should draw from life first and simplify later as opposed to using tricks and routine to render characters. Colour is flat, lacking highlights or depth, and matches poorly with the thick black line that delineates everything - try to vary line weight to imply depth or draw attention. Colour should be judged more carefully - colour theory dictates that a single ambience and tone should be maintained throughout. Is it a comic where Ace, a mostly warm coloured figure, occupies the limelight? If so, then maintain warm hues in every panel. Etc.
iii) Design - However vehemently you deny it, and whether or not this was your intention, the style has immediate similarities to both CAD and PA, (PA moreso) and several characters even share the same silhouette as their doppelgangers, most notably Joe and the unnamed black haired Lucasalike from the Vietnam D and D strip. In order for your characters and comic to be worth reading above their compatriots, you need unique designs. Joe is nigh identical to Tycho, and this will immediately turn off large portions of your potential readerbase. Ace's design is confused, with no immediately recognisable silhouette - there are untold numbers of fat characters. I'm not saying alter him totally, just give him a hairstyle or hat or identifying feature that pops out from a blackout silhouette. Play "Who's That Pokemon?" with established, popular characters and you should be able to instantly identify well made characters. Finally, as Enc said, find a unique visual angle. No one is paying for anything, so unlike real life a cheaper but similar knockoff will not sell over a pricier original - it is that easy for folks to tab over to PA instead. You don't want to be PA, because PA are PA, and you don't want to be CAD because it is horrible.
http://i.imgur.com/tAcFo.png
http://witnesstheabsurd.tumblr.com/
http://i.imgur.com/OPLlE.png
Commission me at http://tinyurl.com/cv3h2pl
!
EDIT 2: Personface posted while I was typing this up, and I just wanted to extend my gratitude for the advice. Time to break out my Poke'dex.
Hello. I am Joe, the guy who draws D20 and Older. I have to confess, I’ve tried to keep my distance from these forums, and let Ace do the talking. It’s not my strong suit. Still, if Enc can go to the trouble of taking his valuable time to offer such lengthy advice, I’d feel bad not acknowledging his efforts with some attempt at a worthwhile reply.
I can’t speak to the blog posts. For the most part, those are Ace’s babies. I wouldn’t want to impose my voice into his work anymore than I’d want to write them myself.
So moving straight into…
Big Picture
Ace doesn’t actually see “straight to the top” as a legitimate goal. I hope… Cause we’ve had this conversation before. If you’re looking for fame and fortune, there are certainly better avenues to travel than webcomics. In the back of my mind, do I harbor the ambition to at least walk a steady, inclining hill towards sustainability? You betcha. But that isn’t the driving force behind what we’re doing.
For me, the goal of D20 and Older is to be a fun, creative outlet shared with my best friend. I enjoy drawing; I like writing the strip; and at least in my head, I’m fond of the characters and world we’ve created. Being able to say all that, despite the obvious flaws and worthy criticism, is a pretty darn good feeling.
I want that to continue. Two days ago, we had a total of one hundred unique visitors after a month of being live. In the past two days alone, because of these forums, we’ve had three hundred. Honestly, that momentary flood won’t end up changing my attitudes about D20 and Older all that much. It’s presented a nice opportunity to get blunt, harsh, but nonetheless apt opinions about my work, and motivation to keep on trying to get better, but come next Monday when we’re back to fifteen unique visitors a day, my goals for D20 and Older will still be to have fun.
#1. With the above in mind, I’d say we’re mostly just aiming to be a topical comic about gaming. The “two guys talking about video games” genre is reviled, but it’s what I like reading. Penny Arcade clones are myriad, but their numbers don’t stop me from enjoying a good one. Hopefully, one day, D20 and Older can be one of the good ones.
#2. Clearly the crisp, detailed, beautifully colored art sets us part and parcel above the rest. It is the one redeeming factor in an otherwise murky abyss of boobs and violence.
*cough*
I don’t want to echo my previous comment about wanting to basically be a decent Penny Arcade clone, lest I further reveal the shallow, hollow motivations behind D20 and Older. There are obviously a direction and angle Ace and I want to present with D20 and Older. Discussing them on an open forum, rather than further fleshing them out privately, seems inappropriate though.
#3 Obviously, Ace and I laugh at most of the strips when we’re writing them. More often than not, we like the drawn, end result as well. Are we completely satisfied? No. As you said, I don’t have ten-plus years of experience under my belt, and the joke suffers between translation from idea to image.
That said, I am a little weary about over-examining a joke for broad appeal. I watch PA TV. I love the Fourth Panel. I see Jerry and Mike cracking up to tears while writing. And while I enjoy their work, and have been a fan for years, the times I laugh at Penny Arcade strips are few and far between. I read the comic for the art, the commentary, and the expectation of a smile.
That we got you to smile is at least a plus in my book.
Writing Comedy
I guess this part of your post was the perfect rebuttal to my previous thought. There is a process to jokes, even if it isn’t immediately obvious. I’ve been long-winded already, and haven’t gotten to the art yet, so I don’t want to post much here. Suffice to say, you’ve offered an interesting set of rules to start applying towards not just our writing, but also the study of comedy as an art form in and of itself.
Three versus four panels is something Ace and I have differed on from the start. He thinks four panels let us flesh out the joke more. I think it gives us an excuse to overcomplicate, and often causes the joke to lack comedy’s (in the short term, versus the aforementioned build-up) necessary celerity. In fairness to four panels, we do struggle to fit dialogue in as it is. This could just be failing to use words more wisely, than a problem with limited space.
Four panels is also one less panel! Which segues into…
The Arts
To take the big picture approach regarding the art, my goals are simply to keep learning. I don’t make any assumptions or claims about the quality of the drawing at this time. From shaky lines, to inexpressive character design, to skewed perspective and excessive copying and pasting, I am more than ready to focus on the flaws before the strengths. At the end of the day, however, upon completion of most comics, I am able to recognize a new technique or method used that I didn’t know before, or at the very least, a more-satisfactory result regarding some aspect of the art.
Could the art have been better before launching in the first place? Absolutely. Despite certain appearances, though, there was effort put forth to learn. Reading books, visiting forums, watching videos, and studying the work of people I admire. Following this, I developed something I wasn’t entirely embarrassed to produce, and we took the plunge.
Ultimately, I’m happy we did. Given any excuse, I’d have nitpicked for an eternity, and delayed the site until I was completely happy with the comic. Which would have been never. If this decision means D20 and Older isn’t the most respected comic on the web, or that (if I’m blessed enough to be doing this five years down the road) I’ll end up looking back at our earliest archives with regret, I’ll gladly trade either for the fact that Ace and I are actually giving it a shot instead of letting D20 and Older spend eternity locked in the pages of an old notebook.
When it comes to the process, like I said, I’m learning as I go. Originally I was drawing the comics at their target size, and zooming in for inking. This led to thick, ugly lines that made smaller details largely impossible…
Starting with this comic, I changed to working with an image that was already big (1525 x 1975 versus 610 x 790) and then sizing it down after coloring. I’ve been using a standard brush with a 5px radius to ink the lines, with pressure sensitivity turned on for my Wacom Bamboo tablet.
I prefer the line work after the change.
Eventually I’d like to include shading and better color choices. Oftentimes I like the “blank background with two characters talking style panels,” that you often see in Penny Arcade and CTRL-ALT-DEL. Having tried it myself, though, I find that the image ends up looking overly flat.
The rest of the stuff I’m trying to improve I hope is more a matter of experience than technical shortcomings. I want to be more consistent with how the characters (especially Ace) are drawn. I’m not happy with how nine out of ten expressions seem too rigid, and canned. Frankly, I think I just need to work on drawing the characters in a myriad of poses just to get comfortable with how their bodies work.
And the entire process takes quite awhile, for a result that doesn’t reflect the time spent. Normally six to eight hours. I’m not complaining that I “have” to draw too damn long. If I didn’t enjoy it, this would be a lot of silly effort just to torture myself. I just know that a) it shouldn’t take as long as it does at my level, and b) the world operates within the confines of time. Doesn’t matter if I enjoy drawing a strip that takes three days, if I’m supposed to be putting one out three times a week, in addition to working a job, and trying to maintain some modicum of a social existence. This leads to the copying and pasting. Which I know is a cardinal sin, even if you see it committed by the best of them.
In the end, it may be worth exploring a less strenuous update schedule until I am more comfortable with the art style. Penny Arcade started off once a week, and while I don’t make allusions to my skills compared to Gabe’s, looking at strip-to-strip improvement in his earliest works, it clearly didn’t hurt.
Umm… That’s about all I know to say, when it comes to the artwork. I would post some of my PDF files, but I’m not sure if it’s acceptable to do so on the forums. Hopefully Ace has posted enough examples of comics we’ve done thus far. If not, I’d be happy to add more.
Thanks to anyone who’s read this far into a tl;dr post. Like I said, I tend to let Ace do the talking cause he’s more comfortable with it. I appreciate any advice you might offer.
Cheers.
At this point, probably a good call to alleviate a considerable amount of your time-sink frustration WHILE improving your art skills would be to take a gander up into the Help and Tutorials thread at the top of this sub-forum and go through some of those handy PDFs and art tutorials. Experimenting is a great thing, and probably the best thing for you to try out at the place you are at with your comic. Start small, since you are doing this mostly for fun. Do 15 minutes of drawing from life before starting a comic as a warm up. Read a half hour of tutorials between class or during your lunch break. Little things, that when you think about them will help your work.
Doodle your own characters too. Not your comic characters, but just random as fuck things that make you giggle. Maybe you will find one of these terrible sketches you like enough to bring into your comic. Maybe not! In either case it will help you in the long run. From your response, I don't think that an in depth art critique would really help you, as it would generally come down to "draw from life more" and "learn anatomy." This is right on both angles, but it may not be fun for you where you are in life and your art.
So start small. I'd take the weekend and peruse through the tutorials. Learn some tricks from reading other critiques in this forum. Maybe start posting in the chat threads questions about how to do this or that.
You can always get more serious later, if you choose. And have fun!
Let's take the comic you have below from your original post:
I can sum up the problem here in one sentence: Too much material, not enough clarity. Let's break it down a bit, and I can show you - from the reader's perspective - why this type of strip writing will never be successful.
Panel one is establishment. The first text bubble is good. It's succinct, and gives us only what we need to know. This strip is about Lego Star Wars, right?
Panel two is a bit long-winded, and keeps going along the subject matter, but something seems very similar to panel one... Let's keep going.
Panel three is talking about - OH I GET IT, it's meta because THEY are made of legos themselves. Here's the problem though: you've already hinted at this aspect twice. Once in the first panel with "They'll turn anything into Lego these days", and again in panel two with "Hey look at us, we can be Lego too!". Add in the fact that we've been able to SEE them as lego in every panel, and you're basically shoveling it into our faces. It's got no punch or ability to be funny anymore. It's old, and we aren't even through the entire strip yet! Not to mention that we are now on a different subject already...regarding a prize for selling out to Lego. Here is a PA strip where they do something similar, but it's funny because they NEVER MENTION IT. It's tongue-in-cheek, and it works very well.
Panel four is what I like to call the "isn't this clever?" panel in this case. All of a sudden, we are done talking about Lego Star Wars, Clone Wars, the concept of Lego-fying the entire world, and selling out to Lego, ... and are now talking about the difference between Lego and MegaBloks. Not only that, but there are references to MegaBloks here that most people aren't going to get. I do, but just BARELY...and I'm a huge Lego nerd. After the "How can you tell?" line, you should have a punchline, not a dual-bubble explanation with two bullet points involved. It needs punch, man, PUNCH! Remove the second word bubble and read it again. Much better, I'd say.
Basically, in my honest opinion, this particular strip should be completely re-done. It's got a lot of extra stuff in it that works against the joke you are trying to tell. You are trying to accomplish so many different things/points/jokes, that it just melds together and nothing really stands out or makes me laugh. It's best to get into the habit, especially early on, of boiling your strip down to the very ESSENCE of the joke you are trying to tell, and remove all the rest of the crap. You know what would make a better strip? Just the first panel. By itself. Seriously, take a look.
My most important piece of advice is to KEEP IT SIMPLE. SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE. Shorter sentences. Less panels. Don't make us read a ton of text, especially when it's irrelevant to the joke. It's a huge comic turn-off. Remember that people read comics for the punchline. They read them to get their chuckle fix and then they move on to the next bookmark. If you can't keep them engaged and laughing, you won't be a bookmark for very long, if at all. Try stepping back from your strips. Do the basic layout with simple sketching and the words included and let it sit for a day. Come back to it the next day and you will no doubt see it differently. It's a difficult thing to think outside your own brain and be the "normal reader" at first, but it's something you need to improve upon based on what I have read so far.
Gah, these explanations always end up being wayyyy too long. I should take my own advice. SIMPLE SIMPLE SIMPLE.
Spoilered to prevent hits:
I apologize to AC for directing these fellows over here from SE++. I thought to turn senseless drama into something positive and productive. Alas, I should have known better.
Joe, based solely on your post in this thread, you seem like an OK guy and you express yourself well. In my humble, anonymous internet-person opinion, you don't need to let Ace talk for you. Keep on keepin' on.
Way.
I'm just trying to... they just don't make shocked smilies big enough!
Shit y'all just got trolled for like, a couple dozen site hits, at bare minimum! A masterful ploy, to say the least.
I'd say I'm boycotting the comic, but that would be a lie. It's just too charming and I'm far too invested in the characters.
Then I read that last comic. lol
Fucking LIES.
"I am deleting my forum account and going back to what I do best which is whatever the hell (not a curse word, it’s in the Bible) I want to. I am going to continue to help my partner Joe (once again 70% flamer) create brilliant comics that bring out an audience that actually enjoys our site and not people that just want to go back to their chatter cafe to point out every flaw. We are D20 and Older… and we are not your parent’s web comic. I will lose no nights of sleep over a forum. I should have never gotten caught up in them at all."
This is just too awesome for words. What a rebel.
He's shocking us so hard right now.
And here I thought I was Gabe this whole time. Bummer.
http://i.imgur.com/tAcFo.png
http://witnesstheabsurd.tumblr.com/
http://i.imgur.com/OPLlE.png
Commission me at http://tinyurl.com/cv3h2pl
!