Does anyone have a link to these proposed jungle changes, or can just tell me what they are? I am the go to jungler for my friends so I'd love to keep myself abreast of such changes, but, I'm not having an easy time finding information on it? I did find some Q&A interview... in Chinese.
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OnTheLastCastlelet's keep it haimish for the peripateticRegistered Userregular
You were farming way too slow. Master the art of clicking a million times til the minion is at the right health for one autoattack. You'll have to learn the timing cause veigar's attack is slow as balls.
Taking a minion to a sliver of health w/ your autoattack denies you gold and prob your lane partner too. So that's step 1. Also you really should buy a lucky pick or at least boots earlier. You had only a doran ring past 20 mins. You either need to farm muuuuuuch faster or compensate w/ GP/5 items.
Lets say anyone 1600 and up is considered "High" ELO. If they are doing this "strictly for the high ELOs," then they're making that change for a mere 2.8% of the LoL population. That is bad.
Now, I'm not saying that this change is necessarily bad, but I can assuredly say, they're not making this change for the high ELOs alone. They know better than that.
I think a better way to put it is "they're doing it so tournaments (which are all high elo players) are more entertaining." Because just watching the lanes passively farm isn't the most interesting thing ever.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
@FlipperDolphin
Yep Mres/AP Galio is the best. Bulwark is easily his best heal and with a few ap items helps his survivability much more than getting more armor/mr/heath. All galio needs is enough armor/mr/health to survive between the cooldowns of bulwark. Usually you can get that with a chalice, merc treads, and aegis.
Not quite sure what you mean about his Q splash. I find the tooltip right. Especially when i'm last hitting minions with Q while avoiding hitting full health minions.
I dont know, but I was missing a lot with the Q even though I was pretty sure they were in the radius. It seems one of the tougher skill shots (maybe because of the slow speed, i dunno). But it hurts when it hits them
His Q is tough to hit at first, and the slight delay on casting it doesn't certainly doesn't help. It also does seem to have a sweet spot, you can't catch people on the edge of it and expect them to get damage, but if you play him enough, you'll be able to hit Q's with your eye's closed. I build my Galio a bit different than most. If it's a good start I'll build a tear, if it's a close start, I'll go chalice. Merc boots always since they sync with your passive, but then I almost always rush a zhonya's, it's surprisingly good. After that it's real situational, but since Cait is so popular these days, thornmail is pretty common since it amplifies your ult even more.
Lets say anyone 1600 and up is considered "High" ELO. If they are doing this "strictly for the high ELOs," then they're making that change for a mere 2.8% of the LoL population. That is bad.
Now, I'm not saying that this change is necessarily bad, but I can assuredly say, they're not making this change for the high ELOs alone. They know better than that.
I think a better way to put it is "they're doing it so tournaments (which are all high elo players) are more entertaining." Because just watching the lanes passively farm isn't the most interesting thing ever.
That is the ultimate definition of a rock and a hard place though.
Do you make a change that could potentially anger 90% of your player base. (OK, not really, as lets be honest, less than 1% of LoL players below 1600 actually give a shit about changes. Most just deal with it and go on with their day.), or do you leave it as is and fuck your eSports genre?
I honestly don't want to be the guy that makes that decision, as it potentially has very serious monetary impacts on the game. I mean, this jungle change is immense. Whether they realize it or not, it is going to change the very base mechanics of the game. They're going to have to modify all EXP and Money values in lane and jungle, redo all the buffs, spawn timers, potentially even alter the very map of Summoner's rift. In the process of this change it is going to stealth make many champs overpowered, and nerf others, both in and out of the jungle. This is an EXPANSIVE change. Like.. SW:Galaxies/SOE type of change. If they fuck it up, you could see a lot of rerolls to DoTA2.
That's why I'm hesitant to trust them on this issue. It has much broader impacts than the jungle. They're aware of that, and just not admitting it, because they know the community would shit a brick.
Ultimately, I have a feeling why Guinsoo is talking about this now:
Magma chamber is far, far from complete. Riot got lucky with a balanced Summoner's Rift. (Barring some purple side inconsistencies due to camera angle, but that's arguable.) Then they made TT, and saw what a mess that became. So they went back to 5v5.
Once they got into the iterative process, they realized what a cluster fuck the jungle is, and how freakishly lucky they got with Summoner's rift that jungling worked out okay as a Meta. In designing Magma chamber though, they probably realized it is impossible to duplicate Summoner's Rift's jungle without some game breaking implications for champion balance.
I feel the only reason they're making these jungle changes is more likely that if Magma Chamber has a chance in hell of succeeding, they need to change jungling at it's very base.
@FlipperDolphin
Yep Mres/AP Galio is the best. Bulwark is easily his best heal and with a few ap items helps his survivability much more than getting more armor/mr/heath. All galio needs is enough armor/mr/health to survive between the cooldowns of bulwark. Usually you can get that with a chalice, merc treads, and aegis.
Not quite sure what you mean about his Q splash. I find the tooltip right. Especially when i'm last hitting minions with Q while avoiding hitting full health minions.
I dont know, but I was missing a lot with the Q even though I was pretty sure they were in the radius. It seems one of the tougher skill shots (maybe because of the slow speed, i dunno). But it hurts when it hits them
His Q is tough to hit at first, and the slight delay on casting it doesn't certainly doesn't help. It also does seem to have a sweet spot, you can't catch people on the edge of it and expect them to get damage, but if you play him enough, you'll be able to hit Q's with your eye's closed. I build my Galio a bit different than most. If it's a good start I'll build a tear, if it's a close start, I'll go chalice. Merc boots always since they sync with your passive, but then I almost always rush a zhonya's, it's surprisingly good. After that it's real situational, but since Cait is so popular these days, thornmail is pretty common since it amplifies your ult even more.
Yeah, I used to main AP Galio back in the day when his E was his main damage source and Q was crap. So I didnt bother with really practicing landing his Q since his E was fantastic and I could harass all day. I miss old AP Galio, but this new one is just Q instead of E.
Goodbye another 2 k ip on runes. I have needed scaling mana regen for blitz and kassadin for awhile now. Next is scaling health regen for Morde but goddamn it that's another 3k right there.
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OnTheLastCastlelet's keep it haimish for the peripateticRegistered Userregular
Two 'featured' guides for Kayle in a day on solomid. Waaaaaaaaaat.
One is basically how I play only recommending straight AD reds. Interesting w/ her passive. Seems good. I already have so much AP at level 1 that my Q+E is a beast at level 3.
(Note, I snipped his quote, so please don't take Draygo out of context. Read his whole post.)
1st - I disagree about not having Jungles being a more fun game. Because of the removal of jungle uncertainty, lanes are decided from the beginning of the game. You flat up know that your Ashe Sona lane isn't going to be able to handle the Blitz-Xin Zhao opponent unless you hug your tower all day long. Add a Fiddles Jungle though, and now you have a bit more leeway to push your lane and farm, knowing the safety that if things get out of hand, Fiddles can come in to help you out.
I'd much rather have to worry about a Jungle gank on me from time to time, and play passive that way, than go into a lane I know I'm flat out going to lose. (IE: Soraka / Vlad sustain lane.)
Riot is doing this change strictly for the higher elos,
That's a really, really bad basis to make changes however, from a business standpoint. Taking a look at the ELO breakdown, and 2400 being top rank, which only 1 person can have at a time.
Lets say anyone 1600 and up is considered "High" ELO. If they are doing this "strictly for the high ELOs," then they're making that change for a mere 2.8% of the LoL population. That is bad.
Now, I'm not saying that this change is necessarily bad, but I can assuredly say, they're not making this change for the high ELOs alone. They know better than that.
Gunna quote your entire post as you are the unfortunate soul to be on the bottom of the last page.
I dont take the same view that devs should not balance around what they precieve is happening at the top tiers of the game. If the top tiers of a game have a problem, they absolutely MUST be fixed. Riot has seen that the first 18 minutes of a top player game is boring to watch, and boring to play. I think overall with the jungle changes riot wants people to step out of the lane and get a few jungle creeps as well as more aggressive play not being punished so hard.
While only 2-3% of players play in that relevent level, the changes potenially help everyone. End game matters, what the remaining 97% of players strive for matters. If starcraft wasnt balanced at the high end, it would not have lasted as long as it did (and still does). Riot knows how many people watch high elo streams, riot knows how the game is shaping up (dull). I do not think riot would have considered making this change until after they saw how things played out at dreamhack.
About your first point, I also disagree there. If you are in a losing lane and the enemy has a jungle as well, you still must tower hug. You step out even with your jungle, and their jungle also comes in and you lose the ensueing 3 on 3 and your own tower. Second point being if they didnt have a jungle you are describing a situation riot wants to change. Riot seems to want blitz/xin to attempt to kill ashe/sona before 18 minutes and have it be less risky for them to try than it is now.
Overall what they proposed wont make the game any worse. At best it will allow a little more pushing of the solo and side lanes, at worst, the side lanes will play just as passively as before.
Yeah, I actually don't think the changes will change lane passivity. Especially if campions with hard cc and heavy slows that couldn't jungle before will be able to after the change.
Plus the fact that leaving camps up will be less of a xp/gold loss, because they're worth less and spawn back faster. A jungler can leave the jungle and come back whenever he feels like instead of timing everything around the 100 minute camp spawns.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah, I used to main AP Galio back in the day when his E was his main damage source and Q was crap. So I didnt bother with really practicing landing his Q since his E was fantastic and I could harass all day. I miss old AP Galio, but this new one is just Q instead of E.
Overall I think Galio is actually a bit improved over the old AP Galio. Much more well rounded. The only real nerf is his ult damage reduction, but its compensated by a larger ult circle (and it actually damages everyone you taunt now). His E is actually pretty useful for the speed buff now, where previously no one would use it for that. His Q actually has solid damage and a real good AP ratio. It used to be pretty crappy that you wouldnt put but a single point in it for the slow.
Generally landing his Q is simply remembering what the enemy does when you launch it at them. if they run back like most do, I usually hit them by aiming behind them. With a proper rune page at level 1 galio can easily take out 1/4 to 1/3rd of an opponents health bar.
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
What's fun is when they go Sona/Ashe and we go Xin/Karma and fucking obliterate Sona in five seconds
Karma is a support who supports by punching a guy in the face with one hand and giving her friend a cookie with the other.
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Yeah, I used to main AP Galio back in the day when his E was his main damage source and Q was crap. So I didnt bother with really practicing landing his Q since his E was fantastic and I could harass all day. I miss old AP Galio, but this new one is just Q instead of E.
Overall I think Galio is actually a bit improved over the old AP Galio. Much more well rounded. The only real nerf is his ult damage reduction, but its compensated by a larger ult circle (and it actually damages everyone you taunt now). His E is actually pretty useful for the speed buff now, where previously no one would use it for that. His Q actually has solid damage and a real good AP ratio. It used to be pretty crappy that you wouldnt put but a single point in it for the slow.
Generally landing his Q is simply remembering what the enemy does when you launch it at them. if they run back like most do, I usually hit them by aiming behind them. With a proper rune page at level 1 galio can easily take out 1/4 to 1/3rd of an opponents health bar.
Galio is in a great place. Ok at lower levels, very rewarding at high skill play.
sona ashe lane deserves to die, pick a better lane comp
You illustrated my point perfectly. Jungle helps mitigate the fact that you may have a shitty lane. Riot would like it that there is no such thing as a "shitty" lane, but the game can't be perfect. Part of what a jungler can do is take what is a good team comp and help shore up a deficiency a solitary lane may experience. The jungler in and of itself allows for more exotic comps. Remove the jungler from the equation in terms of less powerful ganks, and you'll have people going for whatever lane will straight up dominate.
sona ashe lane deserves to die, pick a better lane comp
You illustrated my point perfectly. Jungle helps mitigate the fact that you may have a shitty lane. Riot would like it that there is no such thing as a "shitty" lane, but the game can't be perfect. Part of what a jungler can do is take what is a good team comp and help shore up a deficiency a solitary lane may experience. The jungler in and of itself allows for more exotic comps. Remove the jungler from the equation in terms of less powerful ganks, and you'll have people going for whatever lane will straight up dominate.
Thereby - team variety will greatly decrease.
no, a jungler means that characters that are bad early game and great late game get to coast through early game for free and be good late game with no drawback, because the good early game characters can't afford to take risks. that's a huge problem.
if you pick a shitty lane there is probably a very good reason for it. sona ashe is phenomenal late game and they should have a ridiculously uphill battle early game to stay relevant
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Also: Monkey King needs to come out on Tuesday. I normally could give two shits about when a champion is released, but this one better not be delayed.
Past results however point to if they say Monkey King is Tuesday, he'll be out the second Thursday after that. Oh, and they'll release him at 6PM PST, so everyone can rush to get him during primetime, just in time for the servers to go down until 2 AM.
Goodbye another 2 k ip on runes. I have needed scaling mana regen for blitz and kassadin for awhile now. Next is scaling health regen for Morde but goddamn it that's another 3k right there.
IMO hp/lvl on Morde is better than hp5/lvl, and armor better than both. Just my 2 cents!
"and the morning stars I have seen
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Lets say anyone 1600 and up is considered "High" ELO. If they are doing this "strictly for the high ELOs," then they're making that change for a mere 2.8% of the LoL population. That is bad.
Now, I'm not saying that this change is necessarily bad, but I can assuredly say, they're not making this change for the high ELOs alone. They know better than that.
I think a better way to put it is "they're doing it so tournaments (which are all high elo players) are more entertaining." Because just watching the lanes passively farm isn't the most interesting thing ever.
That won't be what happens. It will just make the game easier to snowball.
the current "i made one mistake and now i have to be afraid for the next fifteen minutes because they have a jungler!!!" meta is probably worse than the one they're building though
e: what the fuck the default smiley face turned into obnoxious-on-the-phone guy
unintentional on
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Zen VulgarityWhat a lovely day for teaSecret British ThreadRegistered Userregular
Junglers should not have that bottom bush to gank from
the current "i made one mistake and now i have to be afraid for the next fifteen minutes because they have a jungler!!!" meta is probably worse than the one they're building though
e: what the fuck the default smiley face turned into obnoxious-on-the-phone guy
Uuuuh no, it will be "I have made one mistake and I need to be babysat for the rest of the laning phase because there is no way we can kill that solo top flash/exhaust Corki olol".
Posts
Taking a minion to a sliver of health w/ your autoattack denies you gold and prob your lane partner too. So that's step 1. Also you really should buy a lucky pick or at least boots earlier. You had only a doran ring past 20 mins. You either need to farm muuuuuuch faster or compensate w/ GP/5 items.
Fun video. Sadly, I image they gimmicked that with a lvl 18 Nid and low level enemies (IE: Hidden health bars, don't know who's enemy or not.)
Still, amusing, would watch again. +1
or I could watch terrible, terrible pornography
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
I think a better way to put it is "they're doing it so tournaments (which are all high elo players) are more entertaining." Because just watching the lanes passively farm isn't the most interesting thing ever.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
His Q is tough to hit at first, and the slight delay on casting it doesn't certainly doesn't help. It also does seem to have a sweet spot, you can't catch people on the edge of it and expect them to get damage, but if you play him enough, you'll be able to hit Q's with your eye's closed. I build my Galio a bit different than most. If it's a good start I'll build a tear, if it's a close start, I'll go chalice. Merc boots always since they sync with your passive, but then I almost always rush a zhonya's, it's surprisingly good. After that it's real situational, but since Cait is so popular these days, thornmail is pretty common since it amplifies your ult even more.
That is the ultimate definition of a rock and a hard place though.
Do you make a change that could potentially anger 90% of your player base. (OK, not really, as lets be honest, less than 1% of LoL players below 1600 actually give a shit about changes. Most just deal with it and go on with their day.), or do you leave it as is and fuck your eSports genre?
I honestly don't want to be the guy that makes that decision, as it potentially has very serious monetary impacts on the game. I mean, this jungle change is immense. Whether they realize it or not, it is going to change the very base mechanics of the game. They're going to have to modify all EXP and Money values in lane and jungle, redo all the buffs, spawn timers, potentially even alter the very map of Summoner's rift. In the process of this change it is going to stealth make many champs overpowered, and nerf others, both in and out of the jungle. This is an EXPANSIVE change. Like.. SW:Galaxies/SOE type of change. If they fuck it up, you could see a lot of rerolls to DoTA2.
That's why I'm hesitant to trust them on this issue. It has much broader impacts than the jungle. They're aware of that, and just not admitting it, because they know the community would shit a brick.
Ultimately, I have a feeling why Guinsoo is talking about this now:
Magma chamber is far, far from complete. Riot got lucky with a balanced Summoner's Rift. (Barring some purple side inconsistencies due to camera angle, but that's arguable.) Then they made TT, and saw what a mess that became. So they went back to 5v5.
Once they got into the iterative process, they realized what a cluster fuck the jungle is, and how freakishly lucky they got with Summoner's rift that jungling worked out okay as a Meta. In designing Magma chamber though, they probably realized it is impossible to duplicate Summoner's Rift's jungle without some game breaking implications for champion balance.
I feel the only reason they're making these jungle changes is more likely that if Magma Chamber has a chance in hell of succeeding, they need to change jungling at it's very base.
Either way you will hate yourself at the end of it.
Yeah, I used to main AP Galio back in the day when his E was his main damage source and Q was crap. So I didnt bother with really practicing landing his Q since his E was fantastic and I could harass all day. I miss old AP Galio, but this new one is just Q instead of E.
One is basically how I play only recommending straight AD reds. Interesting w/ her passive. Seems good. I already have so much AP at level 1 that my Q+E is a beast at level 3.
Gunna quote your entire post as you are the unfortunate soul to be on the bottom of the last page.
I dont take the same view that devs should not balance around what they precieve is happening at the top tiers of the game. If the top tiers of a game have a problem, they absolutely MUST be fixed. Riot has seen that the first 18 minutes of a top player game is boring to watch, and boring to play. I think overall with the jungle changes riot wants people to step out of the lane and get a few jungle creeps as well as more aggressive play not being punished so hard.
While only 2-3% of players play in that relevent level, the changes potenially help everyone. End game matters, what the remaining 97% of players strive for matters. If starcraft wasnt balanced at the high end, it would not have lasted as long as it did (and still does). Riot knows how many people watch high elo streams, riot knows how the game is shaping up (dull). I do not think riot would have considered making this change until after they saw how things played out at dreamhack.
About your first point, I also disagree there. If you are in a losing lane and the enemy has a jungle as well, you still must tower hug. You step out even with your jungle, and their jungle also comes in and you lose the ensueing 3 on 3 and your own tower. Second point being if they didnt have a jungle you are describing a situation riot wants to change. Riot seems to want blitz/xin to attempt to kill ashe/sona before 18 minutes and have it be less risky for them to try than it is now.
Overall what they proposed wont make the game any worse. At best it will allow a little more pushing of the solo and side lanes, at worst, the side lanes will play just as passively as before.
Plus the fact that leaving camps up will be less of a xp/gold loss, because they're worth less and spawn back faster. A jungler can leave the jungle and come back whenever he feels like instead of timing everything around the 100 minute camp spawns.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Overall I think Galio is actually a bit improved over the old AP Galio. Much more well rounded. The only real nerf is his ult damage reduction, but its compensated by a larger ult circle (and it actually damages everyone you taunt now). His E is actually pretty useful for the speed buff now, where previously no one would use it for that. His Q actually has solid damage and a real good AP ratio. It used to be pretty crappy that you wouldnt put but a single point in it for the slow.
Generally landing his Q is simply remembering what the enemy does when you launch it at them. if they run back like most do, I usually hit them by aiming behind them. With a proper rune page at level 1 galio can easily take out 1/4 to 1/3rd of an opponents health bar.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Galio is in a great place. Ok at lower levels, very rewarding at high skill play.
You illustrated my point perfectly. Jungle helps mitigate the fact that you may have a shitty lane. Riot would like it that there is no such thing as a "shitty" lane, but the game can't be perfect. Part of what a jungler can do is take what is a good team comp and help shore up a deficiency a solitary lane may experience. The jungler in and of itself allows for more exotic comps. Remove the jungler from the equation in terms of less powerful ganks, and you'll have people going for whatever lane will straight up dominate.
Thereby - team variety will greatly decrease.
no, a jungler means that characters that are bad early game and great late game get to coast through early game for free and be good late game with no drawback, because the good early game characters can't afford to take risks. that's a huge problem.
Past results however point to if they say Monkey King is Tuesday, he'll be out the second Thursday after that. Oh, and they'll release him at 6PM PST, so everyone can rush to get him during primetime, just in time for the servers to go down until 2 AM.
I figured we'd be on a 3week cycle til all of that gets sorted out
You're more than likely right.
IMO hp/lvl on Morde is better than hp5/lvl, and armor better than both. Just my 2 cents!
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
but
karma is right there...
you don't even know
(were you in the game the other day where i karma teleported to bottom lane minion and shielded myself for a double kill)
AP/lvl seals are subpar compared to what primary runes are available to Morde
(unless you want to play him caster and say fuck-all to survivability)
and the gengars who are guiding me" -- W.S. Merwin
That won't be what happens. It will just make the game easier to snowball.
the current "i made one mistake and now i have to be afraid for the next fifteen minutes because they have a jungler!!!" meta is probably worse than the one they're building though
e: what the fuck the default smiley face turned into obnoxious-on-the-phone guy
Uuuuh no, it will be "I have made one mistake and I need to be babysat for the rest of the laning phase because there is no way we can kill that solo top flash/exhaust Corki olol".
IMO, we should split top and bot lanes from the rest of the map so they can be accessed only from base. Would take care of a lot of problems!