HDTV + non-HD games = Yikes

FireWeasel

I'm having some issues with my new HDTV -- specifically as it relates to non-HD-enabled games, a la Wii, GC, PS2 and Xbox.

I just bought a Toshiba 37HL66, which makes 360 games look AMAZING.

Unfortunately, any of the other systems kinda look like...well, ass, basically.

I'm using composite cables for virtually all of them, and the result is intensely jaggy graphics, which is manageable through most Wii titles by keeping the resolution at 4:3 and NOT bumping the graphics to 480p (which just enhances the jagginess). Good benchmarks include Wii Sports' Bowling, whose pins have varying amounts of jagginess, and Zelda, due to Link's features.

However, stuff like Animal Crossing and RE4 are kinda painful to look at. I won't even mention what's going on with the original Xbox.

I was just wondering if anyone else has encountered these issues, and if so, how you managed to overcome them.

FaceballMcDougal

it's pretty normal

SD televisions take low res 480 games and display them with a sort of "poor-mans anti-aliasing" just because of the nature of the display.

BigDes

For the PS2 I use this

It isn't perfect, in fact it's a absolute bastard with some games, but when it does work it works quite well.

Atlus Parker

FireWeasel wrote: »

I'm using composite cables for virtually all of them, and the result is intensely jaggy graphics, which is manageable through most Wii titles by keeping the resolution at 4:3 and NOT bumping the graphics to 480p (which just enhances the jagginess). Good benchmarks include Wii Sports' Bowling, whose pins have varying amounts of jagginess, and Zelda, due to Link's features.

You're using composite cables for the Wii? If that's the case 480p should never be on considering you need component cables at the very least to run in 480p. Get component cables for the Wii and set it to widescreen/480p. It should definitely look better than what you're getting now. Heck, any of your systems that are capable of 480p should look better when hooked up using the right cables.

AbsoluteZero

The majority of HDTV sets suck at displaying SD signals. I don't know why, but whatever. You basically have to live with it.

Alternatively you could drop some large bucks on an external SD to HD upconverter.

Viscountalpha

AbsoluteZero wrote: »

The majority of HDTV sets suck at displaying SD signals. I don't know why, but whatever. You basically have to live with it.

Alternatively you could drop some large bucks on an external SD to HD upconverter.

Or people could keep their SDTV's and have a multi-gaming system setup.

apotheos

It does depend on the quality of the upconversion chipset inside the television, but even at its best it is not all that hot looking. I mostly don't mind it myself.

FireWeasel

Atlus Parker wrote: »

FireWeasel wrote: »

I'm using composite cables for virtually all of them, and the result is intensely jaggy graphics, which is manageable through most Wii titles by keeping the resolution at 4:3 and NOT bumping the graphics to 480p (which just enhances the jagginess). Good benchmarks include Wii Sports' Bowling, whose pins have varying amounts of jagginess, and Zelda, due to Link's features.

You're using composite cables for the Wii? If that's the case 480p should never be on considering you need component cables at the very least to run in 480p. Get component cables for the Wii and set it to widescreen/480p. It should definitely look better than what you're getting now. Heck, any of your systems that are capable of 480p should look better when hooked up using the right cables.

I knew I was going to get the name of the cable wrong.

Yes, I had the component cables...forgot the name. Anyway, I did set it to widescreen and 480p, and let me tell you, the jagginess was completely out of control. By dropping it to 4:3 and keeping it at 480i, the sharpness doesn't completely take over.

On a standard TV, 480p looks great, partly because it's almost too muddy. On the HDTV, however, the effect is the opposite, simply because it's already really sharp.

Still TOO sharp at 4:3 and 480i, in my opinion, and I wish there was an easier fix.

Jebral

FireWeasel wrote: »

Atlus Parker wrote: »

FireWeasel wrote: »

I'm using composite cables for virtually all of them, and the result is intensely jaggy graphics, which is manageable through most Wii titles by keeping the resolution at 4:3 and NOT bumping the graphics to 480p (which just enhances the jagginess). Good benchmarks include Wii Sports' Bowling, whose pins have varying amounts of jagginess, and Zelda, due to Link's features.

You're using composite cables for the Wii? If that's the case 480p should never be on considering you need component cables at the very least to run in 480p. Get component cables for the Wii and set it to widescreen/480p. It should definitely look better than what you're getting now. Heck, any of your systems that are capable of 480p should look better when hooked up using the right cables.

I knew I was going to get the name of the cable wrong.

Yes, I had the component cables...forgot the name. Anyway, I did set it to widescreen and 480p, and let me tell you, the jagginess was completely out of control. By dropping it to 4:3 and keeping it at 480i, the sharpness doesn't completely take over.

On a standard TV, 480p looks great, partly because it's almost too muddy. On the HDTV, however, the effect is the opposite, simply because it's already really sharp.

Still TOO sharp at 4:3 and 480i, in my opinion, and I wish there was an easier fix.

It's not physically possible for a regular TV to display 480p. Have you tried adjusting the sharp on your television? If it's too high, that can make a LOT of things look REALLY bad.

elkatas

AbsoluteZero wrote: »

The majority of HDTV sets suck at displaying SD signals. I don't know why, but whatever. You basically have to live with it..

By my understanding it is simply because HDTV sets are set to certain resolution, and can't change below that. This means everything that is below specified resolution is upscaled "on the fly" to correct resolution. Depending on your TV's upscaling abilities, this can look nearly identical to "real" 480i, or like in most cases, complete ass. From what I have heard, cheaper models are much worse on upscaling stuff, but it really depends on manufacturer how good quality will be.

Dritz

These kind of topics always confuse me since I've never encountered something like this and I probably have an HDTV older than most peoples here. Although I've never hooked up the NES to it I can say that even the SNES looks good on the TV. Only thing I've only had trouble with is the GameBoy Player which just looks horrible. I have no problem with SD television either.

I hope my whole post didn't come off as bragging or anything. I'm just curious to know why some TVs are better at SD than others. Someone mentioned the TVs ability to upscale signals which I don't even think my TV would be cabable of.

racyrefinedraj

This is why I'm oh so scared of the future of televisions.

That and the fact that I am poor.

Atlus Parker

Dritz wrote: »

These kind of topics always confuse me since I've never encountered something like this and I probably have an HDTV older than most peoples here. Although I've never hooked up the NES to it I can say that even the SNES looks good on the TV. Only thing I've only had trouble with is the GameBoy Player which just looks horrible. I have no problem with SD television either.

It sounds like you have one of those 1080i-only "HDTVs"? Every single one of those sets that I have come across do SD really well but never really grant any sort of benefit to 720p+. The worst offenders are the 4:3 1080i only TVs since they have to letterbox all HD content.

Wezoin

I got Monster component cables for my Xbox. It made it look BEAUTIFUL (well, as beautiful as possible)

I'm sure you dont HAVE to spend the big bucks on Monster cable, but the only other thing I could find was MadCatz which was, needless to say, absolute crap.

Dritz

Atlus Parker wrote: »

Dritz wrote: »

These kind of topics always confuse me since I've never encountered something like this and I probably have an HDTV older than most peoples here. Although I've never hooked up the NES to it I can say that even the SNES looks good on the TV. Only thing I've only had trouble with is the GameBoy Player which just looks horrible. I have no problem with SD television either.

It sounds like you have one of those 1080i-only "HDTVs"? Every single one of those sets that I have come across do SD really well but never really grant any sort of benefit to 720p+. The worst offenders are the 4:3 1080i only TVs since they have to letterbox all HD content.

Nope 480i via composite, 480i/480p through component, and 480p/720p/1080i through component/DVI. The TV doesn't even have HDMI just DVI.

mntorankusu

It's really unfortunate that HDTV manufacturers don't bother to make their sets good at deinterlacing. In particular, deinterlacing video games.

How many good games have to be turned into blurry, artifacted messes before they learn?!

SpaceGhost

The reason games look bad on a really expensive HD screen, is that when a screen is showing 1080 lines of resolution, but the source is only 200-480, they image has to be stretched and pulled to fill out that larger screen. imagine taking a magnifying glass to your regular set and sitting really close, its kinda like that, The higher res the TV is, the more it will show the flaws that a regular set wouldnt. Aside from that, get component cables for every system you can and it will make a big difference.

shutz

One suggestion I haven't seen anyone here make:

Turn the sharpness setting on your HDTV down to its lowest setting.

Actually, almost everybody should do this, and here's the reason why:

That sharpness effect is a kind of "enhancement" that TVs add to the image, so that what you get on screen is not what you're supposed to be getting. The thing is, on good, modern TVs (even non-HDTVs) that already provide the sharpest image they can from the input signal, adding sharpness basically makes edges and contours stand out more than they should. This is one of the things that exacerbates jaggies and such.

To better understand this, fire up your favorite photo editor (Photoshop, or if you need something free, try the GIMP -- www.gimp.org) load up a picture, and then play around with the "sharpen" effect. To really see how sharpness would degrade a lo-res picture on an HDTV, zoom in on your picture in a spot that already has sharp lines or details until you can see individual pixels, and then add sharpness. See how things gradually get uglier? That's what your TV's sharpness is doing.

Ask most home-theater setup experts, and they'll tell you to set the sharpness at its lowest levels for the best picture quality when watching DVDs.

The only time when added sharpness might help is when watching televised sports, such as football, hockey or soccer, where the enhancement can help you see details you might otherwise miss.

mntorankusu

shutz wrote: »

sharpness sucks, etc

This is true. But, it should be pointed out that on many TVs, turning the sharpness down to 0, or as low as it will go, will actually blur the input image. So, for example, on one of these sets with a sharpness setting from 0-100 percent, 50 percent will leave the image unaltered.

It's lame.

Glal

Hmm, as I understand it, the reason most HDTVs suck at old signals is, in part, because they're LCD displays. As anyone who's tried to run 640x480 games on 1600x480 LCD displays can tell you, it's not pretty.

If you don't mind a smaller screen, I'm told Samsung's CRT HDTVs have absolutely no problems with lower resolutions.

ArugulaZ

Classic gamers with a high-def television set have it the worst. Anything older than an NES looks absolutely horrifying on an HDTV... the picture is blurry and there's interference galore thanks to the RF connections that nearly all early 80's game systems use.

Marlor

apotheos wrote: »

It does depend on the quality of the upconversion chipset inside the television, but even at its best it is not all that hot looking. I mostly don't mind it myself.

Definitely.

A friend of mine has a new (expensive) Sony LCD TV that does a decent job. Wii games look fine, and PS2 games are OK, despite being a bit aliased. All-in-all, it looks almost as good as an equally-sized SDTV.

On the other hand, my parents' LCD TV does a terrible job at scaling. It actually introduces artifacts that weren't in the original image. Intricate detail in games like Twilight Princess are stretched, distorted and obscured.

The problem is really that you can't just double or triple the size of the pixels on an LCD TV, since 720 divided by 480 (or 1080/480) doesn't result in an integer. The same applies with PAL resolutions.

As a result, the TV has to be "intelligent" about the scaling (by doing things like averaging out adjacent pixels). Some TVs are smarter than others. My parents' TV fails abysmally, and actually loses detail in the process somehow.

Turning off noise reduction helps a bit (since some detail in games is classed as "noise" by the TV). However, you basically are screwed if you have a crappy scaler in your TV.

Scaling up content is really a non-trivial process, so you can understand why many HDTV manufacturers optimize their scalers for live-action movies (and not much else).

Kemal86

I can't even bring myself to play FF12 here at college on my 26inch RCA LCD HDTV because it looks like so much ass.

It's kind of rediculous that the game looks better on my mom's 50$ standard def piece of crap tv than on my 900$ fairly decent hdtv.

Marlor

Kemal86 wrote: »

It's kind of rediculous that the game looks better on my mom's 50$ standard def piece of crap tv than on my 900$ fairly decent hdtv.

It's just a drawback of LCD technology. It's not all that great at anything but its native resolution.

That's why I still use a CRT TV for my consoles, and a CRT monitor for my PC gaming. CRTs may be on their last legs, but they still can't be beat when you want support for multiple resolutions.

Mr_Grinch

I'm confused by this too. I dropped £600 on a 32" Samsung (think the model is LE32R71) and it displays SD absolutely beautifully (other than showing up the pixelation on some lower bandwidth cable channels). I'm running the Xbox/PS2/Gamecube through scart, the cable box through rgb scart, my upscaling dvd player through hdmi, my 360 through Component, my laptop through VGA and my wii through it's poor old default composite cables and I have to admit, it still looks great.

I don't know if it's the tv but I really DON'T have low standards for image quality.

Marlor

Mr_Grinch wrote: »

I don't know if it's the tv but I really DON'T have low standards for image quality.

It looks like you lucked out and got a TV with a great scaler. They are few and far between, and even the best brands are hit-and-miss.

Sony's HDTVs are usually pretty good (but they would want to be, given their price). It looks like we can add your Samsung to the list of decent HDTVs.

MikeRyu

What about plasmas? Do they have this problem?

Vincent Grayson

I've got my PS2 hooked up through component to my 56" 1080p tv, and it's not *too* bad.

The God of War II demo looks fine (progressive scan and widescreen), FFXII looks very jaggy (widescreen but no progressive scan), and I haven't dared try anything else yet.

Still though, I'm willing to put with the jaggies, although I wish I had a wireless controller, the 360 has spoiled me.

mugginns

Old systems will look old on new technology, news at 11

Dis_quiet

I just purchased a Samsung 40" 1080p LCD (LN-S4095D) and I'm eagerly awaiting it's arrival at my front door. I'm a bit nervous about how my PS2 will look on it, even with component cables. On the bright side, after God of War 2, there probably won't be too many more PS2 games I'll buy, anyway.

I do use my PS2 for DVD playback (I know, I know), and I'm thinking that's going to look like ass on this new screen. Luckily, good DVD players are pretty cheap these days. (I'm not ready to get into the Blu Ray vs. HD-DVD war yet.) I don't have an Xbox 360 (yet). Does it play regular DVDs out of the box? Is it any good? I don't want to tie up another HD input by having to have a seperate DVD player if I don't have to. As it is, I'll have 4 HD inputs (2 component, 2 HDMI) and those will get tied up by satellite, PS2, Wii, and Xbox 360. I'll end up taking the PS2 out of the equation for a good DVD player if I have to.

I'll post an update once I get the screen as to how things look.

LaPuzza

I went with the Sony SXRD XBR2 60", spending almost $1000 more for proper SD processing over and above the cheaper A2000 model. I just didn't want to buy a TV and have 90% of my games and TV look like a bag of ass. It was so, so worth it. You do absolutely need component cables, though.

I also strongly suggest using a system switcher and setting up one input as your dedicated old/ugly input. What I did was pause a frame of a zoom in on a character in Super Smash Brothers Melee, and turn the picture until I saw the most defined jaggies. Then I moved the slider for sharpness, and was amazed that the jaggies were much more livable. After a few tweaks on that input on the TV, I'm no longer embarrassed by my PS2.

Also, remember that Game Mode makes it worse. The picture looks better in normal mode, much better on my TV, but the lag makes certain games unplayable. Madden 07 for PS2, for example, I have to choose between "looks like ass" and "plays like ass." Thank God most Gamecube titles hold up better.

And, for the record, all HDTV's other than CRT have this problem. The type of TV doesn't really make it better or worse between plasma/lcd/dlp. It is all about the tv's processing, and I totally fell for Sony's 2.5 Vega engine.

LaPuzza

Dis_quiet wrote: »

I just purchased a Samsung 40" 1080p LCD (LN-S4095D) and I'm eagerly awaiting it's arrival at my front door. I'm a bit nervous about how my PS2 will look on it, even with component cables. On the bright side, after God of War 2, there probably won't be too many more PS2 games I'll buy, anyway.

I do use my PS2 for DVD playback (I know, I know), and I'm thinking that's going to look like ass on this new screen. Luckily, good DVD players are pretty cheap these days. (I'm not ready to get into the Blu Ray vs. HD-DVD war yet.) I don't have an Xbox 360 (yet). Does it play regular DVDs out of the box? Is it any good? I don't want to tie up another HD input by having to have a seperate DVD player if I don't have to. As it is, I'll have 4 HD inputs (2 component, 2 HDMI) and those will get tied up by satellite, PS2, Wii, and Xbox 360. I'll end up taking the PS2 out of the equation for a good DVD player if I have to.

I'll post an update once I get the screen as to how things look.

Xbox 360 does play DVDs out of the box, up converted to 480p. It looks pretty nice, but its a little clunky without the remote. If you want a better picture, go for an HDMI upconverting DVD player. Whether or not you care depends on how well your TV can process the signal vs. a dvd player's ability to do so.

Also, you can't use HDMI for your PS2, your 360 or your Wii. You're an input short. Time for a switchbox.

Vincent Grayson

Dis_quiet wrote: »

I just purchased a Samsung 40" 1080p LCD (LN-S4095D) and I'm eagerly awaiting it's arrival at my front door. I'm a bit nervous about how my PS2 will look on it, even with component cables. On the bright side, after God of War 2, there probably won't be too many more PS2 games I'll buy, anyway.

I do use my PS2 for DVD playback (I know, I know), and I'm thinking that's going to look like ass on this new screen. Luckily, good DVD players are pretty cheap these days. (I'm not ready to get into the Blu Ray vs. HD-DVD war yet.) I don't have an Xbox 360 (yet). Does it play regular DVDs out of the box? Is it any good? I don't want to tie up another HD input by having to have a seperate DVD player if I don't have to. As it is, I'll have 4 HD inputs (2 component, 2 HDMI) and those will get tied up by satellite, PS2, Wii, and Xbox 360. I'll end up taking the PS2 out of the equation for a good DVD player if I have to.

I'll post an update once I get the screen as to how things look.

I dunno what the PS2 will do with DVDs, but the 360 will output at 480p over component, and your TV will (presumably) upscale them to 1080p. For me at least, movies tend to look great. TV shows don't look quite as nice, however.

DanHibiki

I got component for my PS2 as well and my TV can upscale it fairly well.

There's only a few games that look a little choppy, like Shadow of the Colossus, but others look great.

FaceballMcDougal

This is where I'm lucky that my "HDTV" is a hand-me-down old CRT projection. Not being as sharp as the newer tech is a good thing in some cases.

apotheos

FaceballMcDougal wrote: »

This is where I'm lucky that my "HDTV" is a hand-me-down old CRT projection. Not being as sharp as the newer tech is a good thing in some cases.

I admire your optimism. However, gouging your eyeballs out all the time is not preferable to gouging your eyeballs out some of the time just because it is more consistent.

Dis_quiet

LaPuzza wrote: »

Also, you can't use HDMI for your PS2, your 360 or your Wii. You're an input short. Time for a switchbox.

Yeah, actually I am aware of this. The PS2 is probably going to go in a closet once I buy a 360. However, I've heard rumors of an updated 360 with HDMI (among other things). I'm not planning on buying one for a little while, anyway, so we'll see what happens. There's a PC input to be used in there somewhere, too. Don't know what I can or will do with that.

So I'll either end up with: Sat=HDMI, Wii=Component, 360=Component, PS2=In storage
or, if they update the 360: Sat=HDMI, 360=HDMI, Wii=Component, PS2=Component

Fuck switch boxes. They're expensive, and I've heard they can degrade your signal.

FaceballMcDougal

apotheos wrote: »

FaceballMcDougal wrote: »

This is where I'm lucky that my "HDTV" is a hand-me-down old CRT projection. Not being as sharp as the newer tech is a good thing in some cases.

I admire your optimism. However, gouging your eyeballs out all the time is not preferable to gouging your eyeballs out some of the time just because it is more consistent.

Having not seen my TV at all that is a bold claim. Plus I have 46 inches of HD that I didn't pay for