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How do you tell someone his gf is crazy?
Anome
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I have a friend named Ben. Almost a year ago, he met a girl named Julie and they immediately started dating. He started bringing her to hang out with friends, as is a normal thing to do, but we quickly realized that "normal" had no real place with this girl. The first party we went to that she attended, she heavily insinuated that she was into me and tried to talk me into some sort of group sex involving me, her, Ben, and my boyfriend. I tried a tactful "thanks but no thanks" which she kind of pouted about but seemed to move on. Later that night she decided that the best course of action would be to corner me in the kitchen in front of a group of people and try to take off my shirt. It was an uncomfortable moment to say the least. Ben obviously knew about this, it wasn't exactly a subtle move, and after Julie wouldn't listen (she was too drunk to reason with, a common occurrence) I tried to tell him it made me uncomfortable but the newness of the relationship (or something) allowed him to look past it. It never really happened again to me but she has moved on since then to another mutual friend, Ryan.
Ryan and Ben have been friends for years and so spend a lot of time hanging out. During that time, Julie always gravitates toward Ryan and has recently told him that she's in love with him. She has assured him that Ben knows and that it's totally cool if they do things. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not judging her based on non-monogamy if it's consensual. I'm judging her because Ryan has repeatedly told her "no, this makes me very uncomfortable and you need to move on" and she responds by crying, telling him that she loves and respects him more than anyone in the world, and that she doesn't understand why he can't just be with her.
I'm getting the feeling that there's almost no one she hasn't hit on in our friend group and it's starting to really bother people. Ben is losing friends because they can't stand to be around Julie and she's always there. Within a month she was at his house probably half the time, maybe more. Within 2 months she was all but moved in. By 3, officially living there. If Ben wanted to stay late at school to study, she'd cry and say she can't be alone.
Ben is a musician and until recently he was going to school for it (he just graduated). Before Julie, he was not the most motivated person but he would be in bands, jam with friends, and teach. In short, he was doing what he wanted to do. Now the two of them just sleep all day and drink all night. She's so bad for him, it's painful to see what 11 months has done. We didn't speak up earlier because we didn't think he'd possibly be able to stand her for this long. Now it looks like he's just accepted that this is the way life is going to be and I don't know if he'll ever snap out of it. How do you tell someone that his girlfriend is crazy and his friends are avoiding him because of it?
(This is a short overview of the situation, there is more crazy to be had but I had to pick a few key things. All names changed to protect the innocent, guilty, and insane alike. If ages matter, Ben is 23 and Julie is 24.)
Ryan and Ben have been friends for years and so spend a lot of time hanging out. During that time, Julie always gravitates toward Ryan and has recently told him that she's in love with him. She has assured him that Ben knows and that it's totally cool if they do things. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not judging her based on non-monogamy if it's consensual. I'm judging her because Ryan has repeatedly told her "no, this makes me very uncomfortable and you need to move on" and she responds by crying, telling him that she loves and respects him more than anyone in the world, and that she doesn't understand why he can't just be with her.
I'm getting the feeling that there's almost no one she hasn't hit on in our friend group and it's starting to really bother people. Ben is losing friends because they can't stand to be around Julie and she's always there. Within a month she was at his house probably half the time, maybe more. Within 2 months she was all but moved in. By 3, officially living there. If Ben wanted to stay late at school to study, she'd cry and say she can't be alone.
Ben is a musician and until recently he was going to school for it (he just graduated). Before Julie, he was not the most motivated person but he would be in bands, jam with friends, and teach. In short, he was doing what he wanted to do. Now the two of them just sleep all day and drink all night. She's so bad for him, it's painful to see what 11 months has done. We didn't speak up earlier because we didn't think he'd possibly be able to stand her for this long. Now it looks like he's just accepted that this is the way life is going to be and I don't know if he'll ever snap out of it. How do you tell someone that his girlfriend is crazy and his friends are avoiding him because of it?
(This is a short overview of the situation, there is more crazy to be had but I had to pick a few key things. All names changed to protect the innocent, guilty, and insane alike. If ages matter, Ben is 23 and Julie is 24.)
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Does he actually know she's hitting on his friends?
Without attacking her as crazy, you can calmly tell him that you are concerned about both him and Julie, that her behavior has been problematic and that you are finding it difficult to be a good friend to him given her behavior. You're concerned about both of them, here are things that have changed, and you are ready to help. In other words, make it not about "your girlfriend's a nutjob" but "hey, you guys have these problems". He can admit 'we' have problems.
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She was so drunk last night. We had all gone to play hockey earlier in the day and she was definitely drinking by then (beer plus slurpee. Ick, but beside the point). Then there was the coolers, more beer, and a bottle of wine. I don't exactly like this girl but I'm starting to worry for her health. This situation sucks and I'm starting to get a little ranty.
The good news is that Julie is insisting on a girls' night out, which is significant because she realizes that will mean a whole night without Ben. I have realized this as well so I've suggested to my boyfriend that he and our other male friends to take Ben on a guys' night out involving an awesome show with an amazing drummer (he's a drummer) to maybe motivate him just a little bit. Everyone we've spoken to so far is on board with the idea and I think the tentative plan is for the guys to talk to him then. It won't be too many people, maybe 3. Enough for him to know it's not just one person worried about him but hopefully not so much that he'll feel ganged up on. They're definitely planning on focussing on the behaviours (sleeping til 7pm, overindulgence in alcohol and hallucinogens, and skipping auditions in favour of the previous two) with a light mention of the relationship. If it doesn't work then hopefully they'll at least gain some insight into how his mind is working about this whole thing. I feel like it's not even love at this point, just apathy and familiarity.
It sounds to me like the guy is really depressed and doesn't know what to do now. I know I had a lot of that when I graduated and didn't jump right into my dream job.
Maybe the best thing your friends could do for him is get him a decent job and a place to stay while he figures himself out. That's asking quite a bit, of course. You'd really be putting yourself out there.
As for him getting a job, he's had auditions scheduled but he won't get off his ass and actually go to them. It's like he's motivated enough to apply but when it comes time to actually get on a bus and go somewhere, that is far too much effort. It pisses me off because he recently skipped an audition for a prog rock band that he would have been perfect for. We can't help him get a job if he won't help himself.
She won't get any job that won't pay her under the table because she's decided she doesn't want any dealings with the government ever because they're evil so she doesn't want to deal with her several years of back taxes even though she'd probably get a significant refund, so she's decided that by never having a job or anything in her own name, she can hide from them. Also she's dating a musician but still aspires to be a housewife.
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So, what did we do? We befriended a complete and utter douche who was one of the groups cousin. A guy who was so shifty you'd expect he would steal from his dead grandmothers casket, and hung out with him. Nobody could stand the guy, but he was there to serve a purpose. We knew by about the second or third time she met him, she would take the bait.
Our friends attitude changed a whole lot when his girlfriend was actually banging another guy. He wasn't apathetic about it at all, and gave her the boot. The act also gave us an easy out for not hanging around with Mr shifty any more either.
Something to consider, possibly....
Sad but such is life. I should have known better than to hope there was a magic phrase I could use to bring him to his senses.
If he wants to talk about his relationship then let him, but believe you me, if you tell him she is dragging him down he'll tell you to fuck off.
If anything your post rings of someone who has plans for this guy and you're disappointed that he is not following the life you planned out for him.
Satans..... hints.....
I disagree with Blake's last point, I think you're just worried about him. But the first two points are the truth. Be there if he needs to talk, but you've got to let him make his own mistakes.
Also, I'm assuming this girl is proper fit because why the fuck else would he put up with this bullshit?
Well, I've been that guy in the past. Not to that extent, but my then-gf definitely hated 95% of all my friends and even though she herself is a great person, we were shit for each other and drug each other down.
There are some things a young man just has to experience (sadly). The importance of love and what it means is very ingrained in society and artistic types are more prone to (what basically amounts to heaps of bullshit) than others.
He might just have to hit bottom on this one to figure it all out. I don't recommend holding his hand during the fall, but maybe help him pick up the pieces when he inevitably realizes what he's been doing.
HOWEVER...
The reason for you to tell him these things is not to expect any kind of change. Or really, any other reaction other then him being completely pissed at you. The reason to tell him is because it will likely make you feel better, and to prove to yourself that you've done your due diligence as a friend, even if it was the last act of friendship you performed. Who knows, maybe he will wise up and come to his senses, that's typically not how this goes, but at the very least you all will be able to sleep at night knowing you at least tried.
Okay, so, the problem is not really "this girl is emotionally abusive and backstabbing", the problem is "waah, my friend isn't a party dude anymore"?
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More the emotionally abusive/backstabbing part, but who wouldn't also be sad about losing a friend? But I see where you'd get that, I'm sure I could have phrased myself better there. The root of the matter is I am honestly worried about him. I would never have described him as a "party dude" but now he just does nothing. A whole year of disappearing into another person the way he has is not healthy.
I don't see the invites stopping either, not really. I just think he'll stop showing up.
You guys are right though. I've been in a relationship that everyone around me could see was bad for me but if they'd told me I would either have gotten angry or told them that they were misinterpreting things. I got out after a year and a half, hopefully he will, too. It's just tough to see someone you care about make similar mistakes to the ones you have, you know? I figured appealing to the wider internet for help was worth a shot in case there was something I hadn't thought about.
Has he got a super close best friend (above the rest) who could talk to him? What everyone says is right, if you as a group decide to tell him his girlfriend is wrong for him, he will just get angry. But if that one closest friend sits him down in private and tells him his or her's concerns...maybe you might get through to him.
Maybe he will come to the realisation himself that the GF has caused him to stop chasing something that he really loved doing, or maybe he just didn't love it enough to maintain the same level of focus on it when there is something as distracting as a relationship going on. Everyone sacrifices their interests somewhat when getting into a serious relationship, some more so than others.
HAHA, I was thinking the same thing. Everyone involved sounds like a terribly boring loser with problems.
Then that's what you talk to him about. You leave the gf out of it. "Bob, I'm really worried because you used to do X and Y and now you seem very withdrawn and unhappy. I'm concerned that you're depressed or something's going on."
If you want to bring her up at all? "I'm worried that your situation might be causing problems for Debbie, too."
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Issue two is that this girl is a creep and you don't want her around your group of friends. Both issues need to be handled separately, and the latter issue is quite a bit more sensitive of a subject to bring up.
In the end, I've had to cut off friends because they had the creepy-crazy significant other that no one wanted to be around. It sucks, but in that sort of situation, you owe that friend some honesty.
Anome says "Ben" is apathetic to the point of not caring about his girlfriend's behavior. He's not offended by any of it. Then everybody else is trying to give advice to be non-confrontational or indirect about talking to Ben.
Yeah, somehow I don't think that telling Ben that his girlfriend is a bad influence is going to offend him. Being direct sounds like it has merit.
I claim no expertise or authority here. It's just that from what I'm given here in this thread, some things don't logically add up.
So this. Whatever happens, if you're a good friend, you owe it to him to voice your concern about him. If it ends up causing you to lose him as a friend, you were going to anyway. Please, PLEASE ignore the terrible advice from people that you need to stay out of it and it's not your business.
This idea that's it's none of your business is mind boggling to me. Do people really take this sort of hands off approach to their friends? I'm not saying it's your right or business to try and change your friends lives, but as a friend, a REAL friend, it's your duty to point out when you think they are being self destructive.
You can tell them, but they probably aren't going to listen. Relationships can make you irrational until you yourself are ready to make a change.
And as I said in my first post, the OP has two issues that needed to be addressed separately. One is worry for the friend, regardless of the girlfriend. The other is the creep girlfriend they don't want around.
Problem one, you can use a lot more tact to deal with. You don't even need to bring the GF up...but problem two, you have exactly two options: Put up with the crazy girlfriend, or tell your friend he's not invited anymore and exactly why. Making something up to "save his feelings" would be a total dick move, and show you weren't a real friend to begin with.
Now my concern is preventing the almost inevitable reconciliation. I feel like she's doing this as a kind of attention grab/power play so I'm trying really hard to come up with the best attitude to take toward Ben. Outright, immediate bashing how awful she was I think will lead to him shutting us out but hopefully we can now get him out to more things and show him how much fun his life used to be. I'm crossing my fingers here and hoping for the best. Thanks guys. I can't believe this may have worked itself out. I just hope it was Ben doing the dumping.
At this point, if you say anything, he may reconcile with her out of spite. Even if he starts to bad mouth her, I would just do the head nod "uh huh", "I see what you mean", "Oh my" thing.
Basically this changes the situation entirely, and now a bull in the china shop honest approach is probably less prudent.
To that end however, your friend is not quite realizing that he is letting a woman, who clearly violates his own moral structure, begin to take him over in some respects. He needs to realize that he must maintain his own decided standards, unless he is willing & interested in acquiring her lifestyle.
"Crazy" colloquially refers to somebody who is irrational and erratic to the point of being dangerous.
People have flatly stated that her sexual advances make people uncomfortable. It's unwelcome and they clearly make it known that it's unwelcome. But she does it anyway to grab attention. That's not "polyamorous," that's being an asshole. Her mores are that of a manipulative and inconsiderate asshole.
Cultural relativism can suck it.
Literally cutting off your significant other in favor of trying to get his friend's attention after constantly telling that friend how much you love them all day has nothing to do with polyamory. Maybe she's polyamorous, but she seems (from the info given) to have set up their relationship as primarily between her and Ben, so ignoring Ben in favor of someone else IN FRONT OF BEN is seperate from whether they've agreed that she can see other people. Also the hitting on everyone in general, whether or not they're interested. She's not being a good relationship prospect/person in a relationship in this situation, polyamory or no, and she's not being respectful of other people's wants and needs either by continuing to hit on them/etc. when they repeatedly tell her they're not interested, either. (Edit: I also want to add that I've learned a fair bit about this stuff given my fiance and I are in fact polyamorous and have looked into the polyamory community at large to learn more about how other people who are poly treat their relationships.) I also want to point out this bit from the OP here that seems to agree with me on the problem the OP and friends have with this not really being about polyamory:
I feel the two options are either that she's crazy or she's really disrespectful of other people, and neither is really good for this Ben guy. Hopefully this issue has now sorted itself out, but yeah, there's a non-zero chance with this kind of girl that there are crazy things ahead (if something more happens right now it's likely to be 'crazy' if she broke up with him herself and decides to cause more drama). I'm not totally sure how to talk to Ben, whichever's happened, but I'd say a start (if he doesn't say anything to you guys to begin with) might be for your friends who are going to hang out with him soon to be like, "Hey, what's up? I saw Julie put her status as single on Facebook, is something going on?" if that wouldn't make him too uncomfortable. Definitely try not to attack the girlfriend, but you guys are certainly allowed to say that you agree with any misgivings he has about her and totally get where he's coming from and so on.
This. Her behavior is not that of a polyamorist who's somehow bravely defying Western convention, it's just attention-whoring taken to a batshit extreme. No decent person of any orientation/lifestyle acts like that. That's not the only evidence of her being a few batteries short of a pack, either:
Anome, what's the status of the planned girls' night out? Has Julie said anything to anyone?
If genders were reversed, someone would have called the police. I am not the most monogamous person in the world certainly, but trying to take someone's shirt off after they've said no is pretty vile behavior. Whether or not your friend is okay with her seeking the attention of others is between them, but if she is making you feel uncomfortable with this sort of thing then I really think you should say something to him about it.
That is, assuming this hasn't all gone pear-shaped already.