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Warhammer Fantasy Battles: Skaven eat cheese (when they are given it).
You've got the Grand Alliance books so do you need to buy the battletomes for the individual factions?
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Halos Nach TariffCan you blame me?I'm too famous.Registered Userregular
The faction battletomes contain individual fluff for the factions, timelines, characters, narrative scenarios and stuff.
In terms of rules they contain battalion formations suited to that faction which are not included in the GA collections, additionally the battletomes which were released after the General's Handbook (So Sylvaneth onwards) contain a unique set of warlord traits and magical items themed for that faction, and if the faction includes any wizards then they get access to a unique spell discipline as well.
Oh, and also the GA books obviously don't have rules for models/units which didn't exist at the time of print (for example Alarielle, and a lot of the Beastclaw Raider stuff sort of exists in both books but has different rules in the actual BCR battletome), but the rules for those models are available for free on the website.
So, in short, the GA books give you all the rules for every model in that faction at time of print, whilst the faction books are designed to let you make more focused, limited armies centered around that factions particular gimmicks, with some new toys rolled in to counter-balance the loss of unit choice.
Watching a few battle reports it seems like Sylvaneth could be my jam. They seem really techy and intricate in their gameplay. Kinda remind of Circle from Warmachine a bit.
They are almost exactly like the circle in warmachine.
They pop up forests and can teleport around IN those forests and get a benefit from being in or near forests and can take forests as part of their army and deploy extra forests and
Oh and also the forests kill you
The more I read up on the game the more and more it reminds me a lot of Warmachine, actually. With a lot of: This unit does X. This other unit makes it do X better. This other unit also makes it do X better in a different way. This other unit casts a spell that makes X also better.
I'm not really a fan of that kind of synergy building in miniature games, so I wonder if this is the game for me.
Good to know, must have been the particular army I was looking at. It was spider riders and they have this whole mortal wounda on 6, but mortal wounds on 5 if there is a boss spideraround, and cause 2 mortal wounds if a big spider is around and then throw in some spell, and it gave me awful memories of warmachine list building.
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ExtreaminatusGo forth and amplify,the Noise Marines are here!Registered Userregular
Those synergies are cool and useful, but they're not reliable enough to build a list around because they're so situational. The spells don't always go off and the rolling for initiative every turn can throw a wrench into any plans you may have.
The spider video I was talking about is actually the second match between those two. The synergies didn't seem situational at all and he was consistently getting multiple mortal wounds on 4s. Looking at the warscrolls for the spider riders it seems like you actually have to build them around that synergy as its kind of all they've got going for them.
I haven't really looked all that hard, but I get the impression that there's a fair bit of wonky stuff in the warscrolls that aren't full Battletome releases.
Halos Nach TariffCan you blame me?I'm too famous.Registered Userregular
Some armies are more synergy focused than others, and certain units within factions might require a degree of synergistic planning to get the best out of (the aforementioned forest goblins, witch elves, etc.) and most armies will have some level of that, however you will often also have units available which don't require such careful set-up, and having a mix of stuff can be advantageous, like, you might want a solid core of stuff backed up by the relevant heroes and magic, but you'll also want flanking elements or monsters that can operate alone to act as distractions or to pick apart your opponents synergy elements.
So really how much synergy stuff you want to mess around with is up to you, you often have flexibility in that regard, though, yeah, some factions/units want it more than others.
That all being said though, this game is a bit more like Warmachine than 40K. I prefer it that way, honestly. In AoS, like Warmachine, you've got a single model who provides (usually, and especially with the new Handbook rules) substantial buffs to your entire army. At the very barest minimum, you've got a model that makes another unit immune to battleshock for a turn, which in this game is a huge threat for many armies. At the extreme other end you've got a model that casts a buff spell, casts a damaging spell on an opponent's units, and grants your models additional attacks, while also making a different unit of yours immune to battleshock.
I like that a lot, and I also like the synergies and buffs that many armies can pass around in search of that all-mighty +1 to hit.
If you don't like having to remember to buff your units each turn, then yeah, it might not be the best game for you. Of course, there are armies that don't really need to buff up to survive, but generally most armies have at least a few buffs that you need to remember to upkeep at your peril.
Honestly, I really miss Warmahordes, but the metal models are frustrating, and fewer people play around where I live.
I can think of a few armies that don't really need to remember to buff themselves (honestly, Sylvaneth is one of them, along with some Death sub-factions, Stormcast Eternals, Ironjawz, and Nurgle Rotbringers). On the other end, are armies that really need to remember their rube goldberg machines or they fail spectacularly (Spider Goblins, SKAVEN, Fyreslayers, some Death armies, Seraphon to some degree). It really depends, but yeah I would say this game is kind of similar to taking some of the best and worst parts of 40K and Warmachine and smushing them together. I really, really enjoy it, but it isn't for everyone.
LokiDon't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
With all the shit I give GW, they still make some fucking great large monster models.
+6
Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
I do think that's probably their best Lord of Change yet. Seems a tad busy in a few places, mainly with all the fidly metal bits... looking forwards to the official 360' shot so I can see the whole thing. Also I hear you can use the kit to make Kairos Fateweaver, so I'm looking forwards to seeing what that option looks like as well.
I'm trying to wrap my head around some aspects of sigmar list building.
So like, musicians and banners. They cost no extra points? So, what's the catch? Do they replace the weapons the model normally has or something?
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ExtreaminatusGo forth and amplify,the Noise Marines are here!Registered Userregular
Free upgrades! Same weapons! One per unit, I believe.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Yeah, the description section of the warscroll will list any specific rules concerning upgrades like what proportion of the unit can take them, but otherwise upgrades and exchanges are free.
Think of it as units being costed on the basis that they will have a banner and not taking one is selling yourself short.
There is something kind of nice about having a free, 4 page rulebook. But also, like, I just wish they were more explicit that they really do not give a fuck how you balance each players army. Games just are not played that way generally, and some clarification would have been nice.
Listen you fucko's, don't be an asshole and figure it out yourselves. There's no point system, there is nothing. N O T H I N G We are on some hippy shit over here. Good luck.
edit: There is now a points system in the Generals Handbook so buy that if you want.
something like that would have been nice to read 2 hours ago.
Been reading lots of warscrolls, kind of funny that of the two starter set factions, the one that seems more elite and specialized is the straight forward one to play, and the one that seems to be just about charging at the enemy is all about layering buffs and synergies.
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Halos Nach TariffCan you blame me?I'm too famous.Registered Userregular
This weekend is the Age of Sigmar Grand Tournament at warhammer world, I will be competing and will try and remember to snap some pics, the rules pack stipulates fully painted models only, so I expect to see some good stuff!
It'll probably be streaming on Warhammer TV too I think.
Been reading lots of warscrolls, kind of funny that of the two starter set factions, the one that seems more elite and specialized is the straight forward one to play, and the one that seems to be just about charging at the enemy is all about layering buffs and synergies.
I know a lot about skaven, if you want my opinions on army stuff
I think I am leaning towards Empire, or I guess Free Peoples now, which makes us enemies, Arch (yoy might even say it makes us arch enemies :P)
I'm trying to figure out how a unit works but it's not clicking for me. I am sure the answer is obvious but I am overlooking something. The unit is question is the Luminark of Hysh and its Aura of Protection. It says that "You can roll a dice each time an order model from your army suffers a wound or mortal wound whilst within range" blah blah ignores on a roll of 6.
What is throwing me is that it says model but not unit. So let's say that I have a unit of 20 swordsmen and 10 are within 10 inches of the luminark and thus are in range, but 10 are out of range. How does this work?
+1
Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
I think I am leaning towards Empire, or I guess Free Peoples now, which makes us enemies, Arch (yoy might even say it makes us arch enemies :P)
I'm trying to figure out how a unit works but it's not clicking for me. I am sure the answer is obvious but I am overlooking something. The unit is question is the Luminark of Hysh and its Aura of Protection. It says that "You can roll a dice each time an order model from your army suffers a wound or mortal wound whilst within range" blah blah ignores on a roll of 6.
What is throwing me is that it says model but not unit. So let's say that I have a unit of 20 swordsmen and 10 are within 10 inches of the luminark and thus are in range, but 10 are out of range. How does this work?
W: AoS Rules p.4 Inflicting Damage:
"After all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit allocates any wounds that are inflicted to models from the unit as they see fit"
This is the part where the Luminark sticks its oar in and gives you its extra "I can't believe it's not a save" roll. Since you allocate wounds to your own models all you have to do is allocate one to a model in range of the effect.
So hypothetically if the 20 man unit was engaged in melee and the front 10 are in range and the back 10 aren't. I'd have to decide between, for example, allocating wounds to the front to say, have enough die to get out of 3 inch range and exit that combat. Or, allocate to the back to get my 1 in 6 chance of not dying?
If I suffered 10 wounds would I assign them 1 at a time, rolling the d6 each time (hypothetically having one guy tank all 10 with insane luck) or would I have to assign all 10 and then roll? Or? (Am I just way over thinking this?)
Depends how they are equipped. If everyones is armed the same you can probably roll em all at once. If specific models matter best to do it one at a time.
I picked up the Tzeentch book yesterday, and got a couple of 1k games in. I don't think Tzaangors are really worth it in units smaller than 20, and i dont really wanna run a squishy hordey army so i guess i'll be sticking with chaos warriors :pop:
Also proxied some skyfires and enlightened, which i liked much better!
So hypothetically if the 20 man unit was engaged in melee and the front 10 are in range and the back 10 aren't. I'd have to decide between, for example, allocating wounds to the front to say, have enough die to get out of 3 inch range and exit that combat. Or, allocate to the back to get my 1 in 6 chance of not dying?
If I suffered 10 wounds would I assign them 1 at a time, rolling the d6 each time (hypothetically having one guy tank all 10 with insane luck) or would I have to assign all 10 and then roll? Or? (Am I just way over thinking this?)
Per the rules, technically you pick one guy as the first "lucky" victim and he gets allocated wounds until he's dead. Then you pick another and roll until that one is dead, and so on.
Please note that you don't do any of this until the entire attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks and you have rolled all your saves* that phase and you allocate damage from the wound pool generated from all attacks simultaneously.
Out of interest, how does the whole summoning thing work in AoS? Are summoned units part of your army that you just don't deploy, or are they literally free new units? Seems kind of bonkers if it's the latter.
"I told you," said Ford. "Eddies in the space-time continuum."
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
So hypothetically if the 20 man unit was engaged in melee and the front 10 are in range and the back 10 aren't. I'd have to decide between, for example, allocating wounds to the front to say, have enough die to get out of 3 inch range and exit that combat. Or, allocate to the back to get my 1 in 6 chance of not dying?
If I suffered 10 wounds would I assign them 1 at a time, rolling the d6 each time (hypothetically having one guy tank all 10 with insane luck) or would I have to assign all 10 and then roll? Or? (Am I just way over thinking this?)
Per the rules, technically you pick one guy as the first "lucky" victim and he gets allocated wounds until he's dead. Then you pick another and roll until that one is dead, and so on.
Please note that you don't do any of this until the entire attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks and you have rolled all your saves* that phase and you allocate damage from the wound pool generated from all attacks simultaneously.
* the Luminark does not grant any kind of save.
Also note that a lot of people will try and cheese this shit and it's the single most infuriating thing, and why I've currently stopped going to play at my LGS. That is, they do the wound sequence wrong. The way they play it is this, in regards to models or units with multiple different weapons. First, you attack with one set of weapons (for example, my Stormfiend's Shock Gauntlets). I roll to hit, roll to wound, then they roll to save the damage. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated to a model in the unit until it dies, and then the remaining wounds are allocated to the next model, and so on. And then you attack with your next set of weapons.
What pisses me off, is that they roll attacks, roll saves, allocate wounds for each weapon in turn. So, I'd attack and resolve everything with my Shock Gauntlets, and then move on to my clubbing blows. So far so good.....but the players either have a house rule or just all have a collective misunderstanding, and after all the wounds from one weapon are allocated for a unit, when I go to make my next set of attacks with a different weapon (the clubbing blows) if anything is out of range, they consider the attack failing....which leads to a "tactic" of allocating wounds to models in the front of the unit, so subsequent attacks from that unit are out of range.
Which is not really a tactic, and is expressly not how the rules are meant to be played, and every time I've brought it up it starts an argument I don't want to have.
So hypothetically if the 20 man unit was engaged in melee and the front 10 are in range and the back 10 aren't. I'd have to decide between, for example, allocating wounds to the front to say, have enough die to get out of 3 inch range and exit that combat. Or, allocate to the back to get my 1 in 6 chance of not dying?
If I suffered 10 wounds would I assign them 1 at a time, rolling the d6 each time (hypothetically having one guy tank all 10 with insane luck) or would I have to assign all 10 and then roll? Or? (Am I just way over thinking this?)
Per the rules, technically you pick one guy as the first "lucky" victim and he gets allocated wounds until he's dead. Then you pick another and roll until that one is dead, and so on.
Please note that you don't do any of this until the entire attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks and you have rolled all your saves* that phase and you allocate damage from the wound pool generated from all attacks simultaneously.
* the Luminark does not grant any kind of save.
Also note that a lot of people will try and cheese this shit and it's the single most infuriating thing, and why I've currently stopped going to play at my LGS. That is, they do the wound sequence wrong. The way they play it is this, in regards to models or units with multiple different weapons. First, you attack with one set of weapons (for example, my Stormfiend's Shock Gauntlets). I roll to hit, roll to wound, then they roll to save the damage. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated to a model in the unit until it dies, and then the remaining wounds are allocated to the next model, and so on. And then you attack with your next set of weapons.
What pisses me off, is that they roll attacks, roll saves, allocate wounds for each weapon in turn. So, I'd attack and resolve everything with my Shock Gauntlets, and then move on to my clubbing blows. So far so good.....but the players either have a house rule or just all have a collective misunderstanding, and after all the wounds from one weapon are allocated for a unit, when I go to make my next set of attacks with a different weapon (the clubbing blows) if anything is out of range, they consider the attack failing....which leads to a "tactic" of allocating wounds to models in the front of the unit, so subsequent attacks from that unit are out of range.
Which is not really a tactic, and is expressly not how the rules are meant to be played, and every time I've brought it up it starts an argument I don't want to have.
Yeah, that's straight bullshit and super easily refutable.
All weapons strike at the same time, weapon pools are rolled separately for ease of calculation.
The last time I was at the game store, I had the rules and was like "look, that's not what it means" and we got into an argument about whether "all" in the rules text referred to "all the weapons" or "all the attacks one unit can make" and it was the worst thing I've ever sat through. I mean, I'm okay with semantic arguments, but goddam. It's not hard to see the grammatical construct- and this is what I was bitching about earlier in this thread when I said that I feel like people are either really stupid or just are really trying hard to misinterpret the rules text in Sigmar.
Anyway the point is that in your example, since all weapons strike at the same time, damage is rolled separately, then wounds get allocated one at a time to a target unit, each time a unit is assigned a wound you can roll to save against it using your ability.
Also fk the Free People, SKAVEN WILL KILL KILL ALL MANLINGS
Out of interest, how does the whole summoning thing work in AoS? Are summoned units part of your army that you just don't deploy, or are they literally free new units? Seems kind of bonkers if it's the latter.
In matched play, you reserve X points of your army list, and you can use that to summon.
To clarify a bit- Matched Play is the version of the rules with a points system, similar to 40k, Warmahordes, and other games systems. In this mode, like Echo said, you put aside X number of points at the start of a match that is your "summoning pool", and during the course of the game you can summon as many units as you want, each time subtracting the cost of the summoned unit from your pool points. It's kind of nice, because you can summon things that break army restrictions if you want (so like, a Flesh Eater Courts army could summon some Morghasts).
If you aren't playing Matched Play, however, then it doesn't matter, and they are literally free new units and it is kind of bonkers and broken.
| Zinnar on most things | Avatar by Blameless Cleric
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
If you aren't playing Matched Play against randos you are doing it wrong. The regular "core" game is for friends who know each other's collections to throw down some stuff by mutual agreement and fight it out and/or special scenarios. Like that one time Nagash magically duplicated himself and figured five of him could take anyone…
That said, the core rules do sorta punish summon spam by counting them towards units killed while they don't count towards your army's starting units; that is, if you don't get a major victory (aka total wipe-out or sudden death) an army that starts with one unit, summons five more, then loses those five, has lost 500% of its army even if the original unit is untouched, which an army that has no summons literally cannot do.
Posts
You've got the Grand Alliance books so do you need to buy the battletomes for the individual factions?
In terms of rules they contain battalion formations suited to that faction which are not included in the GA collections, additionally the battletomes which were released after the General's Handbook (So Sylvaneth onwards) contain a unique set of warlord traits and magical items themed for that faction, and if the faction includes any wizards then they get access to a unique spell discipline as well.
Oh, and also the GA books obviously don't have rules for models/units which didn't exist at the time of print (for example Alarielle, and a lot of the Beastclaw Raider stuff sort of exists in both books but has different rules in the actual BCR battletome), but the rules for those models are available for free on the website.
So, in short, the GA books give you all the rules for every model in that faction at time of print, whilst the faction books are designed to let you make more focused, limited armies centered around that factions particular gimmicks, with some new toys rolled in to counter-balance the loss of unit choice.
I'm seriously considering in the new year buying some models just to paint and put together.
The more I read up on the game the more and more it reminds me a lot of Warmachine, actually. With a lot of: This unit does X. This other unit makes it do X better. This other unit also makes it do X better in a different way. This other unit casts a spell that makes X also better.
I'm not really a fan of that kind of synergy building in miniature games, so I wonder if this is the game for me.
She does the forest deployment wrong though, there's a minimum distance from other forests.
https://natfka.blogspot.se/2016/12/disciples-of-tzeentch-warhammer-tv-live.html
Tzeentchy stuff!
So really how much synergy stuff you want to mess around with is up to you, you often have flexibility in that regard, though, yeah, some factions/units want it more than others.
I like that a lot, and I also like the synergies and buffs that many armies can pass around in search of that all-mighty +1 to hit.
If you don't like having to remember to buff your units each turn, then yeah, it might not be the best game for you. Of course, there are armies that don't really need to buff up to survive, but generally most armies have at least a few buffs that you need to remember to upkeep at your peril.
Honestly, I really miss Warmahordes, but the metal models are frustrating, and fewer people play around where I live.
I can think of a few armies that don't really need to remember to buff themselves (honestly, Sylvaneth is one of them, along with some Death sub-factions, Stormcast Eternals, Ironjawz, and Nurgle Rotbringers). On the other end, are armies that really need to remember their rube goldberg machines or they fail spectacularly (Spider Goblins, SKAVEN, Fyreslayers, some Death armies, Seraphon to some degree). It really depends, but yeah I would say this game is kind of similar to taking some of the best and worst parts of 40K and Warmachine and smushing them together. I really, really enjoy it, but it isn't for everyone.
So like, musicians and banners. They cost no extra points? So, what's the catch? Do they replace the weapons the model normally has or something?
Think of it as units being costed on the basis that they will have a banner and not taking one is selling yourself short.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Because woo five units on the GW store.
edit: OK, that was just the first wave of new stuff, and there's the existing Tzeentch daemons etc. Phew, had me a bit worried there for a bit.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/01/14/more-change-is-on-the-way/
I am having severe army paralysis though. Something kinda shooty, kinda skirmishy, a little varied sounds nice.
So far Free Peoples, Goblins (mix of all the faction), Seraphon (skink focus) and various flavors of Skaven seem neat?
Which is so many things.
Sylvaneth.
3DS: 1650-8480-6786
Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
something like that would have been nice to read 2 hours ago.
Been reading lots of warscrolls, kind of funny that of the two starter set factions, the one that seems more elite and specialized is the straight forward one to play, and the one that seems to be just about charging at the enemy is all about layering buffs and synergies.
It'll probably be streaming on Warhammer TV too I think.
I know a lot about skaven, if you want my opinions on army stuff
I'm trying to figure out how a unit works but it's not clicking for me. I am sure the answer is obvious but I am overlooking something. The unit is question is the Luminark of Hysh and its Aura of Protection. It says that "You can roll a dice each time an order model from your army suffers a wound or mortal wound whilst within range" blah blah ignores on a roll of 6.
What is throwing me is that it says model but not unit. So let's say that I have a unit of 20 swordsmen and 10 are within 10 inches of the luminark and thus are in range, but 10 are out of range. How does this work?
"After all of the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit allocates any wounds that are inflicted to models from the unit as they see fit"
This is the part where the Luminark sticks its oar in and gives you its extra "I can't believe it's not a save" roll. Since you allocate wounds to your own models all you have to do is allocate one to a model in range of the effect.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
If I suffered 10 wounds would I assign them 1 at a time, rolling the d6 each time (hypothetically having one guy tank all 10 with insane luck) or would I have to assign all 10 and then roll? Or? (Am I just way over thinking this?)
I picked up the Tzeentch book yesterday, and got a couple of 1k games in. I don't think Tzaangors are really worth it in units smaller than 20, and i dont really wanna run a squishy hordey army so i guess i'll be sticking with chaos warriors :pop:
Also proxied some skyfires and enlightened, which i liked much better!
Per the rules, technically you pick one guy as the first "lucky" victim and he gets allocated wounds until he's dead. Then you pick another and roll until that one is dead, and so on.
Please note that you don't do any of this until the entire attacking unit has resolved all of its attacks and you have rolled all your saves* that phase and you allocate damage from the wound pool generated from all attacks simultaneously.
* the Luminark does not grant any kind of save.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
"And this is his sofa, is it?" said Arthur.
Also note that a lot of people will try and cheese this shit and it's the single most infuriating thing, and why I've currently stopped going to play at my LGS. That is, they do the wound sequence wrong. The way they play it is this, in regards to models or units with multiple different weapons. First, you attack with one set of weapons (for example, my Stormfiend's Shock Gauntlets). I roll to hit, roll to wound, then they roll to save the damage. Any unsaved wounds are then allocated to a model in the unit until it dies, and then the remaining wounds are allocated to the next model, and so on. And then you attack with your next set of weapons.
What pisses me off, is that they roll attacks, roll saves, allocate wounds for each weapon in turn. So, I'd attack and resolve everything with my Shock Gauntlets, and then move on to my clubbing blows. So far so good.....but the players either have a house rule or just all have a collective misunderstanding, and after all the wounds from one weapon are allocated for a unit, when I go to make my next set of attacks with a different weapon (the clubbing blows) if anything is out of range, they consider the attack failing....which leads to a "tactic" of allocating wounds to models in the front of the unit, so subsequent attacks from that unit are out of range.
Which is not really a tactic, and is expressly not how the rules are meant to be played, and every time I've brought it up it starts an argument I don't want to have.
The last time I was at the game store, I had the rules and was like "look, that's not what it means" and we got into an argument about whether "all" in the rules text referred to "all the weapons" or "all the attacks one unit can make" and it was the worst thing I've ever sat through. I mean, I'm okay with semantic arguments, but goddam. It's not hard to see the grammatical construct- and this is what I was bitching about earlier in this thread when I said that I feel like people are either really stupid or just are really trying hard to misinterpret the rules text in Sigmar.
Anyway the point is that in your example, since all weapons strike at the same time, damage is rolled separately, then wounds get allocated one at a time to a target unit, each time a unit is assigned a wound you can roll to save against it using your ability.
Also fk the Free People, SKAVEN WILL KILL KILL ALL MANLINGS
To clarify a bit- Matched Play is the version of the rules with a points system, similar to 40k, Warmahordes, and other games systems. In this mode, like Echo said, you put aside X number of points at the start of a match that is your "summoning pool", and during the course of the game you can summon as many units as you want, each time subtracting the cost of the summoned unit from your pool points. It's kind of nice, because you can summon things that break army restrictions if you want (so like, a Flesh Eater Courts army could summon some Morghasts).
If you aren't playing Matched Play, however, then it doesn't matter, and they are literally free new units and it is kind of bonkers and broken.
That said, the core rules do sorta punish summon spam by counting them towards units killed while they don't count towards your army's starting units; that is, if you don't get a major victory (aka total wipe-out or sudden death) an army that starts with one unit, summons five more, then loses those five, has lost 500% of its army even if the original unit is untouched, which an army that has no summons literally cannot do.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.