[Industry Thread] I shall call him...Mini Wii.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    So in other words, the Humble Bundle has sold out?

    ....I dunno, I just can't get too worked up over this. Yeah, it would be nice if every single person who worked on these games got a cut, but that would work out to, what, $3.50 a person? Meanwhile Steam's DRM is pretty inoffensive (and haven't past Humble Bundles run on Steam?) participants get an armload of great games for dirt-cheap and, most importantly, charities get a fuckton of money.

    As long as other bundles keep highlighting great indie work I've got no problem with throwing studios in the mix.

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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    I dunno, I've been noticing a LOT of sentiment like what Kuchera wrote across twitter from game developers and journalists that I follow. He's not a lone voice here.

  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. boom Registered User regular
    It just feels like slippery slope kneejerking. A few months from now the next headliner Humble Bundle will come out, and it will be downloadable DRM free, and be available for Linux, and if you beat the average you'll get the previous Humble Bundle, and so on.

    Nothing will really change on that front.

    liEt3nH.png
    Dark Raven X
  • Dark Raven XDark Raven X Laugh hard, run fast, be kindRegistered User regular
    I guess his issue is just that the money is going to the publisher, not the developers, contrary to what the donation page says.

    I can sorta identify with denying the THQ publishers the money; they're dead, this is a firesale situation. But it's not like the whole bundle is a bad thing per se. Give the cash to Child's Play, win win.

    Oh brilliant
  • agoajagoaj Top Tier One FearRegistered User regular
    I could see having a problem with it if you thought this was only the start and EA's going to have a bundle and everything activates on origin and the games are disabled in two weeks.

    But this is an extremely unusual situation, a humble bundle is not a good option for the big publishers. They don't need the exposure, they can do their own sales and make bank. THQ is desperate and are trying something outside the box. It might work out for them and get them some fast cash, but it's a dumb move for anyone who's not teetering over the edge.

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  • Skull2185Skull2185 Registered User regular
    Wasn't there already a Humble EA Bundle? Like, with Shank and stuff in it?

    Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    agoaj wrote: »
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Wow, that is a good price for all those games. What is the current average you need to hit to get Saints Row?

    5.34

    Stats right now
    Total payments: $463,356.35
    Purchases #: 86,760
    Average purchase: $5.34

    half a mil already

    damn
    Bear in mind that THQ doesn't actually get all of that money (over $800,000 now). Some unknowable portion of it was marked for charities or the Humble Bundle instead. Still, based on the scope of past high-profile Humble Bundles, THQ stands to make over a million dollars here easily even if only an average of 50% of the money gets to them. Whether or not that would do them any good remains to be seen.

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. boom Registered User regular
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Wasn't there already a Humble EA Bundle? Like, with Shank and stuff in it?

    It wasn't a humble bundle, but there was an EA Indies bundle offered through some other service (Origin?) at some point yeah.

    liEt3nH.png
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Wasn't there already a Humble EA Bundle? Like, with Shank and stuff in it?

    It wasn't a humble bundle, but there was an EA Indies bundle offered through some other service (Origin?) at some point yeah.

    Shank was in the...3rd? 4th? humble bundle along with actual indie games. I mean, by that metric, bastion, indie darling that it is, wouldn't be indie either since it's published by WB

    steam_sig.png
  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    I think the article ends with a little too much apocalyptic head shaking, but the points are perfectly valid. The Humble Bundles are mostly known for being charitable collections of various indie games, with a few minor departures from that model. Going all in with a big-name (if floundering) publisher is a pretty major shift. When you consider the rising swell of indie developers that have been borderline defining the PC gaming landscape in terms of mindshare, it's a weird backwards step, ideologically.

    He says it himself: It's not a bad deal, but it's basically a charitable Steam sale. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a notable departure.

  • KryhsKryhs Registered User regular
    Any situation where I can pay less than $10 for a handful of great games AND make the entire purchase price go to charity is a win for me. I don't care who the publishers or developers are. Charity + Games = Happy is the equation I follow.

    However, if we start seeing higher prices on these bundles and less options to give to charity then we have a problem...

  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Kryhs wrote: »
    Any situation where I can pay less than $10 for a handful of great games AND make the entire purchase price go to charity is a win for me. I don't care who the publishers or developers are. Charity + Games = Happy is the equation I follow.

    However, if we start seeing higher prices on these bundles and less options to give to charity then we have a problem...

    Yeah, exactly. Which is why I don't see a point in arguing. Even if the "doomsday scenario" of Humble Bundle turning into all big publishers happened (and really, it won't), if the money is going to charity who cares? It's not like someone else couldn't set up an indie-game-only-bundle thing if there was really a demand...

    Warlock82 on
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  • agoajagoaj Top Tier One FearRegistered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Next week is the start of the Humble Nintendo Bundle, it's only their edutainment games though.

    agoaj on
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  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    agoaj wrote: »
    Next week is the start of the Humble Nintendo Bundle, it's only their edutainment games though.

    $1 for Mario Teaches Typing!

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  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    agoaj wrote: »
    Next week is the start of the Humble Nintendo Bundle, it's only their edutainment games though.

    Hey now, Mavis Beacon wishes she could type like Mario.

  • TOGSolidTOGSolid Drunk sailor Seattle, WashingtonRegistered User regular
    Kuchera often writes interesting stuff but I think there should be a 24 hour pause before his articles get posted so he can decide if he really wants to say some of these things after a good nights rest.
    Which is why I've always said Kuchera works best when he has a boss that can say "Ben...no...just...no, go rewrite that." He is definitely not Senior Editor material.

    I'm more suprised people aren't calling this Bundle out on it being more just straight up THQ brand recognition charity. THQ is desperate for any attention and money they can get cause the way things are going for them, this Bundle could easily end up being this instead:
    going-out-of-business.jpg

    wWuzwvJ.png
    Maddoc
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    I think the article ends with a little too much apocalyptic head shaking, but the points are perfectly valid. The Humble Bundles are mostly known for being charitable collections of various indie games, with a few minor departures from that model. Going all in with a big-name (if floundering) publisher is a pretty major shift. When you consider the rising swell of indie developers that have been borderline defining the PC gaming landscape in terms of mindshare, it's a weird backwards step, ideologically.

    He says it himself: It's not a bad deal, but it's basically a charitable Steam sale. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a notable departure.
    At this point there's a pretty clear distinction between the "main" Humble Bundles (i.e. the numbered ones with lots of different developers) and the side bundles (all the single-developer ones and other oddities). Granted, THQ is more than a little anomalous even among the side bundles, but assuming THQ approached Humble Bundle and not vice-versa it's not likely that this is detracting from their plans for the Humble Indie Bundle 7 at all, so I'm not sure it makes any sense to claim that any harm is being done to indie developers. The charitable aspect is the same as it always is as well (one could argue that they would be denying money for charities by not running the bundle).

    I would call the tolerance of DRM significant, though. There are very few defenders of DRM-free distribution remaining in the industry, and the Humble Bundle has typically been one of them, but they're basically admitting here that while they like things to be DRM-free, that fact isn't core to their ideology. This is a pretty clear decision that could potentially impact future bundles. I mean, if THQ approached GOG.com and offered their games on the condition that some form of DRM remain, I'm almost entirely certain that they'd refuse. (Of course, GOG.com is a traditional storefront rather than a loose collection of promotions, so consistent branding is a lot more important to them for reasons beyond pure ideology, but still.)

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  • ZephiranZephiran Registered User regular
    There is perhaps a need for differentiating the steam bundlesales somewhat. Call it a Desperate Dundle if it's basically a firesale for established pub games going for a package or sumfin.

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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    I don't know, I have a hard time calling Steam "DRM". I mean, it is, but it's the least invasive form of DRM there is. Referring to it as DRM just feels like overkill. In fact I originally clicked the article thinking these games had some Ubisoft-level DRM shenanigans based on the title.

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  • I needed a gnome to post.I needed a gnome to post. boom Registered User regular
    Really if you think about it this is the first Humble Bundle where no matter what you're giving to a charity case.

    liEt3nH.png
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  • OneAngryPossumOneAngryPossum Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Wyvern wrote: »
    I think the article ends with a little too much apocalyptic head shaking, but the points are perfectly valid. The Humble Bundles are mostly known for being charitable collections of various indie games, with a few minor departures from that model. Going all in with a big-name (if floundering) publisher is a pretty major shift. When you consider the rising swell of indie developers that have been borderline defining the PC gaming landscape in terms of mindshare, it's a weird backwards step, ideologically.

    He says it himself: It's not a bad deal, but it's basically a charitable Steam sale. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a notable departure.
    At this point there's a pretty clear distinction between the "main" Humble Bundles (i.e. the numbered ones with lots of different developers) and the side bundles (all the single-developer ones and other oddities). Granted, THQ is more than a little anomalous even among the side bundles, but assuming THQ approached Humble Bundle and not vice-versa it's not likely that this is detracting from their plans for the Humble Indie Bundle 7 at all, so I'm not sure it makes any sense to claim that any harm is being done to indie developers. The charitable aspect is the same as it always is as well (one could argue that they would be denying money for charities by not running the bundle).

    I would call the tolerance of DRM significant, though. There are very few defenders of DRM-free distribution remaining in the industry, and the Humble Bundle has typically been one of them, but they're basically admitting here that while they like things to be DRM-free, that fact isn't core to their ideology. This is a pretty clear decision that could potentially impact future bundles. I mean, if THQ approached GOG.com and offered their games on the condition that some form of DRM remain, I'm almost entirely certain that they'd refuse. (Of course, GOG.com is a traditional storefront rather than a loose collection of promotions, so consistent branding is a lot more important to them for reasons beyond pure ideology, but still.)

    The DRM aspect is definitely notable, but I'm a consumer sheep so I tend to view most of the hardline anti-all-DRM ideologues as existing in some wild barren place beyond my comfortable fenced in enclosure. There's probably some valid concerns coming from that side of the fence, but until the grass over here stops being so green I have a hard time getting worked up about it.

    I can't envision this having gone down in any way but THQ approaching the Humble folks. It's strange, because while it does tarnish some of the 'champion of the little to mid-level guys' shine that the Bundles have had, it's a bold and interesting move on THQ's part. Not a lot of other big publishers would have tried something as off the wall as this. Of course, they also aren't in a position where the only option left is hitting 00 on the roulette table.

    OneAngryPossum on
  • WyvernWyvern Registered User regular
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    I don't know, I have a hard time calling Steam "DRM". I mean, it is, but it's the least invasive form of DRM there is. Referring to it as DRM just feels like overkill. In fact I originally clicked the article thinking these games had some Ubisoft-level DRM shenanigans based on the title.
    Steam is textbook DRM. You can't run the games unless you go through an external client (usually), and you're totally dependent on the continued existence of somebody else's servers to retain access to your game. It's a considerably more dramatic form of DRM than CD keys or one-time activations, which is what used to be the standard before it got a hell of a lot worse.

    The reasons people rarely complain about Steam are because:

    1) They don't do the really awful stuff, like requiring a constant internet connection or activation limits.
    2) Steam is so incredibly successful that the odds of them going out of business and shutting down their servers are smaller than pretty much any other game-related service in the world, so that fear is mitigated somewhat.
    3) Steam actually reciprocates some value back to the consumer in the form of extremely steep discounts.

    But acting like it's not "real" DRM is crazy. The difference between owning a game on Steam and owning a game from, say, GOG.com is pretty huge. (In case it's not common knowledge here, with GOG you literally download an executable installer and that's it; you can back it up however you want and you'll never again need anything but a computer to use it. No client, no activation, nothing. And you can still redownload stuff from your account with no limitations, too.)

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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    The reason there isn't much griping about Steam except for from the most dedicated of anti-DRM folks is because it provides an overwhelming amount of carrot alongside the stick. Automatic game patching, cloud saves, a robust community/social network, deep discounts, etc.

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  • HenroidHenroid Homeless Soon Enough Registered User regular
    I didn't see a source for this but apparently THQ's stock rose 38% today.

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  • MaddocMaddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
    Sadly 38% of dick all is still pretty much dick all.

    Also, yeah, I've said it before but Kuchera is in sore need of an editor. This isn't the first time he's posted a dumb kneejerk article, and it won't be the last.

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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Henroid wrote: »
    I didn't see a source for this but apparently THQ's stock rose 38% today.


    That is correct.

    http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:THQI

    Basically all of the stock raise was during the hour after the bundle was released (and before the markets closed), too. I'd expect it to rise some more tomorrow.

    Dehumanized on
  • subediisubedii Registered User regular
    The reason there isn't much griping about Steam except for from the most dedicated of anti-DRM folks is because it provides an overwhelming amount of carrot alongside the stick. Automatic game patching, cloud saves, a robust community/social network, deep discounts, etc.

    And in reality that stick is basically a nerf-bat. In real terms it offers good Day-1 protection, and can sometimes last for quite a while, but in general Steam games are usually cracked pretty fast.

    Valve already knows that, they just don't care. What DRM is there (and yes, it certainly is DRM) is only really designed to prevent copying at the most basic level, and protect in the earliest period, which is the most crucial. After that point, well, the games usually become dirt cheap anyway so why go through the frustrations of illegitimate means?

    The biggest achievement Steam ever accomplished wasn't its DRM, it's the fact that it made being a legitimate customer more convenient than being a pirate. It's something that most other companies completely passed by in their search for the non-existent "Ultimate DRM".

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    [didn't see how close we were to the end, deleted]

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  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/the-humble-thq-bundle-loses-indie-games-adds-drm-and-is-a-step-backward-for

    I don't even know what to say about this.... somehow this humble bundle is evil because it's Steam-only and not indie? What? /boggle

    Ew... a little bit disappoint in Kuchera on that one. I like how he seems to take issue with this bundle, but says he's still going to buy it anyway.

    But it's not a 'humble' bundle any more, is it? It's just a bundle. I see his point.

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  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Wyvern wrote: »
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    I don't know, I have a hard time calling Steam "DRM". I mean, it is, but it's the least invasive form of DRM there is. Referring to it as DRM just feels like overkill. In fact I originally clicked the article thinking these games had some Ubisoft-level DRM shenanigans based on the title.
    Steam is textbook DRM. You can't run the games unless you go through an external client (usually), and you're totally dependent on the continued existence of somebody else's servers to retain access to your game. It's a considerably more dramatic form of DRM than CD keys or one-time activations, which is what used to be the standard before it got a hell of a lot worse.

    The reasons people rarely complain about Steam are because:

    1) They don't do the really awful stuff, like requiring a constant internet connection or activation limits.
    2) Steam is so incredibly successful that the odds of them going out of business and shutting down their servers are smaller than pretty much any other game-related service in the world, so that fear is mitigated somewhat.
    3) Steam actually reciprocates some value back to the consumer in the form of extremely steep discounts.

    But acting like it's not "real" DRM is crazy. The difference between owning a game on Steam and owning a game from, say, GOG.com is pretty huge. (In case it's not common knowledge here, with GOG you literally download an executable installer and that's it; you can back it up however you want and you'll never again need anything but a computer to use it. No client, no activation, nothing. And you can still redownload stuff from your account with no limitations, too.)

    Steam is an very invasive, and effective, method of product control--no reselling, no use outside the stated parameters, active discouragement of even running different versions of the game. Of course it's effective DRM. It just happens to be a very popular, convenient system alongside extremely stiff DRM. Consoles come with a wide array of DRM protection for physical games, and no one complains about that.

    Synthesis on
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  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    Spaffy wrote: »
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/the-humble-thq-bundle-loses-indie-games-adds-drm-and-is-a-step-backward-for

    I don't even know what to say about this.... somehow this humble bundle is evil because it's Steam-only and not indie? What? /boggle

    Ew... a little bit disappoint in Kuchera on that one. I like how he seems to take issue with this bundle, but says he's still going to buy it anyway.

    But it's not a 'humble' bundle any more, is it? It's just a bundle. I see his point.

    Selling a bunch of what were full retail games for a few bucks isn't humble?

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