The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
Please vote in the Forum Structure Poll. Polling will close at 2PM EST on January 21, 2025.
I'm not a huge fan of seatbelt laws. If people want to be idiots and kill/hurt themselves them more power to them. Furthermore, I don't see why their idiocy has to affect the rest of society. All the points brought up in the OP regarding the "effects of not wearing seatbelts on other people" are direct results of policies instituted by ourselves and are not strictly necessary. If Joe Shmoe gets in an accident and can't pay for his own medical care why should anyone else be held financially responsible? It was his own shortsightedness that got him into that situation and I'm not one for forcing other people to be responsible for others. If they want to do it out of the goodness of their heart I don't have a problem with it.
Because Joe Shmoe might have a family that relies on him. Because Joe Shmoe is a very average person an not allowing entitlements for every person who gets into an accident without wearing a seat belt would cause a lot of other Joe Shmoes and their families to suffer. Because every life is a fucking life no matter how stupid he is he still deserves not to get royally fucked.
I'm not sure what your point is? If you feel bad for people in situations like these go ahead and give them help. I'm just asking that you don't force people to help who don't want to.
That could be said for anything that the government helps pay for.
"Why should I help fund medical research if I don't want to?"
Medical research could be considered a public good in some cases similar to the military. Just a thought, because many do not consider it a public good.
How is preventing idiots and their families from being screwed over and poor not considered for the public good? If they are not well off, the children will be more likely to grow up to commit crimes. By preventing this from happening, we are preventing future problems for society as a whole.
There is a huge difference between "a public good" and for the "public (common) good". See theoretically you could say that each dollar of research in science benefits man-kind fairly equally. If some families get their insurance paid by me, I really don't benefit. See the military is also considered a public good because each dollar in protects everyone equally.
I find it absolutely mind-boggling that there are people who skip the "put your seatbelt on" step of driving or riding in a car. Once the process is down to a reflex you can do it one-handed while adjusting the radio, negating the single extra second it takes entirely.
From a physics standpoint, it makes even less sense; in the event of a collision, the principle of inertia turns unrestrained motorists into unguided projectiles, rattling around the passenger compartment like the .22 in Old Yeller's head. On a related and potentially NSFW note, Ireland does not fuck around with their PSAs.
Safety equipment is not manufactured, tested, certified and marketed for the everyday jaunt to the supermarket. It's for when the kid in his dad's Suburban dozes off at 40MPH on the way to school and slams into your Sentra at a red light.
redstormpopcorn on
BELIEVE IN YOU, WHO BELIEVES IN YOURSELF
0
MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
How many people in this world died in the time it took us to get to a few hundred posts? I care a great deal about the people that I love. you could even say that I care about the people who died today, but it would be in the very general sense of the word "care".
Fail.
No one deserves to die for making a stupid decision, and whether they happen to be your friend or not doesn't change that fact. You're still basing your arguments off of a casual disregard for and dehumanization of strangers, and it's still disgusting.
What about retarded people? They can be pretty stupid. Should we stand back and let them hurt themselves, because that makes everyone more free, and hey, they're no friends of ours anyway?
Sorry but I do believe that people who act casually stupid might deserve to die for their casual stupidity depending on what they are being casually stupid about. If someone is too fucking self-centered and idiotic to not look both ways before crossing the street (if they aren't literally blind) and if someone is too stupid or inconvenienced to put on a seatbelt, then fuck them. They are taking their own life in their own hands. I'm not going to shed any tears for them. In fact, if someone in my OWN FAMILY died that way, I would shed tears, but I'd also be royally pissed off that they allowed themselves to die for such a god damn stupid reason. I think it's a bit unfair to expect people to give a shit about people who die of their own accord, because of their own selfish and stupid decisions.
That said, the seatbelt law should absolutely and definitely stay.
I really don't know why, with twenty thousand something road fatalities a year, I should care about a fine that doesn't affect me or anyone I know?
You're revoltingly self-centered.
How many people in this world died in the time it took us to get to a few hundred posts? I care a great deal about the people that I love. you could even say that I care about the people who died today, but it would be in the very general sense of the word "care". I think the same is probably true for you as well. Hell, you have a closer connection to me than you do to 99.99% of the world population, and all you had to do was read something I typed on the internet. We should do everything we can to save human life, but we also have to acknowledge that people do, in fact, die. I'm sure you know someone you were close to who has died, and I bet it hurt like hell. Can you honestly say that you would care that much if I died? If people took every death personally, we'd be in mourning constantly. Is it really that bad when I don't take it personally when someone I don't know has died?
If I witnessed you doing something stupid, say, suicide by cop, I'd take the bullet for you.
You're not a friend. Not a close or extended family member. In fact, a half hour may reveal that we hate each other. I, however, consider none of that to be relevant.
I think people have a societal responsibility not to act stupidly, or to exhibit as little stupidity as possible. They also have a responsibility to themselves not to act foolishly.
Implied difference between stupidity and foolishness?
Well, when I say stupid, I don't mean in the "low intelligence" sense. I mean it more in the "hey, you're acting fucking stupid, knock it off" colloquial sense. I think that colloquial sense is similar to the concept of "foolishness."
How many people in this world died in the time it took us to get to a few hundred posts? I care a great deal about the people that I love. you could even say that I care about the people who died today, but it would be in the very general sense of the word "care".
Fail.
No one deserves to die for making a stupid decision, and whether they happen to be your friend or not doesn't change that fact. You're still basing your arguments off of a casual disregard for and dehumanization of strangers, and it's still disgusting.
What about retarded people? They can be pretty stupid. Should we stand back and let them hurt themselves, because that makes everyone more free, and hey, they're no friends of ours anyway?
NO WE SHOULDN'T
Very few people ever deserve to die, and were I in a situation where I could prevent it, I would. I'm not sure I'd take a bullet for a stranger, especially if it were being fired by a cop, like MVMosin would. (thank you, Mosin, by the way). I put friends and family above complete strangers. That hardly implies I think of them as less than human. Let's face it, the odds of me ever having to choose between a stranger or a friend are so incredibly miniscule as to not even exist.
Conventional ethics generally don't demand that you sacrifice your own life for another person's (ie: jumping in front of a bullet), that type of martyrdom is really above-and-beyond.
Well at the base we have the right to do whatever doesn't affect others. Depending on the type of government that we pick however, we do give away a few of said rights, so that society can run smoothly. In the case of America, you have decided to have emergency health care in "Oh S&*!" situations paid for by the government, so you lose a few minor rights that would make would make such serices much more expensive; give and take, you know? If someone wanted to reclaim every single one of their inborn rights, then they'd have to find a pretty damn Libertarian country to live in, and as (somewhat) Libertarian a country as America is, it isn't that Libertarian.
Corlis on
But I don't mind, as long as there's a bed beneath the stars that shine,
I'll be fine, just give me a minute, a man's got a limit, I can't get a life if my heart's not in it.
Fuck, this was supposed to be a springboard into further discussion of laws because seatbelts laws are an example with literally no drawback and yet apparently that's going too far already and people should die.
I agree that the drawback is very minor, but people don't like being told what to do. That's what a lot of it comes down to.
Is it all right if I stick with the tried-and-true "Fuck those people" response?
Conventional ethics generally don't demand that you sacrifice your own life for another person's (ie: jumping in front of a bullet), that type of martyrdom is really above-and-beyond.
Yes, you are right. I doubt I'd be able to do that even if I did have the chance, considering the speed at which I can haul my entire body.
I was just using the hypothetical to demonstrate the extremes to which I value life, regardless of whose life it is.
I put friends and family above complete strangers.
I don't. Sufficed to say, I got really pissed off the first time I played Dead Rising.
I fed those gimped fucks to the zombies and ran.
:x
You bastard.
MVMosin on
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited March 2007
I don't know if its relevant to the discussion, but in Australia the driver is responsible for every passenger in his car wearing a seatbelt, and can be fined if they do not.
Also, it takes fucking ages to get a drivers license, you have to do like 40 hours of logged training time with a license owner next to you who has had his license for over 4 years.
Perhaps someone could look up driver fatality statistics for australia? I would do it, but giving out this information is the point where my interest in joining the discussion ends. Sorry.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Ouch. I bet he was in the hospital for quite some time recovering from that.
Yup. The driver of the white car smashed into a pylon, the driver of the black car went into shock, and the guy who got run the fuck over is fucking dead+++ and buried very deeply. Probably for being a retard.
Hell, even the camera man says "That was beautiful! God damn!"
The Hero on
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I don't know if its relevant to the discussion, but in Australia the driver is responsible for every passenger in his car wearing a seatbelt, and can be fined if they do not.
Also, it takes fucking ages to get a drivers license, you have to do like 40 hours of logged training time with a license owner next to you who has had his license for over 4 years.
Perhaps someone could look up driver fatality statistics for australia? I would do it, but giving out this information is the point where my interest in joining the discussion ends. Sorry.
On the farmsteads, it isn't enforced all that strongly that I remember. In the cities, public transportation is usually superb. What I'm saying is that there isn't as much need or pressure to get the license.
Fencingsax on
0
MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
I think the simple fact that if you are in a head on collision and arent wearing a seatbelt you will fly out the front window at incredible speed and possibly crash into someone else is more than good enough reason to compel you to wear a seatbelt.
In my opinion if you arent smart enough to see that you, and everyone in your car should be compelled to wear a seatbelt then you shouldnt be driving anyway. Since we cant stop idiots driving, we thus must take steps to make sure they wear their seatbelts.
Ouch. I bet he was in the hospital for quite some time recovering from that.
Yup. The driver of the white car smashed into a pylon, the driver of the black car went into shock, and the guy who got run the fuck over is fucking dead+++ and buried very deeply. Probably for being a retard.
Hell, even the camera man says "That was beautiful! God damn!"
Goddamn, these things always remind me of what an awful person I am. I couldn't stop laughing after seeing this, no matter how sorry I felt at the same time that it happened.
It's simple: the road is not a private space, it's public. Therefore, the government can mandate how you behave in that space. They can't force you to wear a seatbelt on your own property.
It's simple: the road is not a private space, it's public. Therefore, the government can mandate how you behave in that space. They can't force you to wear a seatbelt on your own property.
While I agree with your sentiment, I don't really believe it is that simple because (a) a car is not public property, and technically you exist both in your car and on the road, so it is somewhat debatable, and, more importantly, (b) it tends to support the government's "right" or whatever to ban iPod use for pedestrians merely because it's "public road." There are restraints to what the government can expect and enforce even in public areas.
I do agree with your comment, but I don't agree the issue is as simple as saying the road is public. The government can go fuck themselves if they try to ban me from using my iPod while crossing any public street. I'll gladly rebel against that, in practice.
To me, this is more a matter of enforcing a civic responsibility to maintain the highest degree of safety possible while you're driving (or a front-seat passenger). That's why cell phones are banned and headphones are banned and seat belts are required - not merely because it is a public road. It is a public road and that is one reason, but that's not a sufficient reason in and of itself.
I just don't think that making them mandatory is going to mean that the people intent on spiting the government will suddenly start wearing them. I don't think that the people who never got in the habit of wearing them, will remember all the time because of the fine. The fine and the ad campaigns raise awareness that certainly will convert a few people, but everyone keeps asking about what is preferable: the hospital bills or the fine. If they're in the hospital the fines obviously didn't work and the result is rather predictable.
Perhaps a better law would be stiffer penalties for parents with their driver's ed son or daughter behind the wheel. Even if they never wore their seatbelts, I bet for five hundred dollars or so they'd make sure their kid would. Their kid would go on to (hopefully) wear it regularly.
So you're argument is basically the stupid position of "because it won't work 100% of the time, clearly we should do nothing instead."
Fuck, this was supposed to be a springboard into further discussion of laws because seatbelts laws are an example with literally no drawback and yet apparently that's going too far already and people should die.
And that's why I love America.
You can make a thread that you think is reasonable and well thought out. We'll fucking hijack it.
Booyah.
Seriously I have no problem with seatbelt laws. Like I said in the chat thread, I balance the right being infringed with the arguments for the right being infringed. In this case, common sense, public safety, and various other factors persuade me that against that, the negligable infringement upon rights that is seatbelt laws is worthwhile. Almost no right is being infringed by seat belt laws. Right to transportation? No. Right to property? No. Right to self-defense? No. Right to use property in any way you see fit, so long as it doesn't harm someone else? Yes, but only minorly, and it runs up against the the second half of the question.
Its a minor infringement at best.
Therefore seat belt laws= good.
But its not the same as gun laws.
Gun law
Right to self-defense? Infringed. Right to own property? Infringed. Right to use property in any way you see fit, so long as it doesn't harm someone else (range shooting, hunting)? Infringed. Given the continually decreasing #'s of deaths related to gun violence, I don't think that argument generates an overriding reason to suppress the right.
Suppressing any right should only be done when absolutely necessary, and even then, it should be done with as little suppression as is necessary.
Oh and Electric? Seriously, this is not the worst period in American Civil Rights.
A) The whole Jim Crow/Slavery thing. Because apparently being black made some people not human. Lincoln suspending habeus corpus. The supreme court told him to fuck off. He told them to fuck off. It wasn't challeged like it was now.
C) Alien & and motherfucking Sedition act.
Now if the Patriot act gets extended and expanded: Bad.
Internment camps: Uh-fucking-oh.
Random arrests without prosecution: Really bad. (thank you SC for overruling that and forcing the gov to go to trial. Even if they are dragging their fucking feet).
Suspending elections: Oh bitch. Its ON now.
Edit: Note, any combination of those factors may lead to "it being on"
I think the simple fact that if you are in a head on collision and arent wearing a seatbelt you will fly out the front window at incredible speed and possibly crash into someone else is more than good enough reason to compel you to wear a seatbelt.
In my opinion if you arent smart enough to see that you, and everyone in your car should be compelled to wear a seatbelt then you shouldnt be driving anyway. Since we cant stop idiots driving, we thus must take steps to make sure they wear their seatbelts.
I don't understand why so many people apparently find this to be abhorrent.
McDonald's and unhealthy fast food should be banned to protect people from themselves.
I think the simple fact that if you are in a head on collision and arent wearing a seatbelt you will fly out the front window at incredible speed and possibly crash into someone else is more than good enough reason to compel you to wear a seatbelt.
In my opinion if you arent smart enough to see that you, and everyone in your car should be compelled to wear a seatbelt then you shouldnt be driving anyway. Since we cant stop idiots driving, we thus must take steps to make sure they wear their seatbelts.
I don't understand why so many people apparently find this to be abhorrent.
McDonald's and unhealthy fast food should be banned to protect people from themselves.
I think the simple fact that if you are in a head on collision and arent wearing a seatbelt you will fly out the front window at incredible speed and possibly crash into someone else is more than good enough reason to compel you to wear a seatbelt.
In my opinion if you arent smart enough to see that you, and everyone in your car should be compelled to wear a seatbelt then you shouldnt be driving anyway. Since we cant stop idiots driving, we thus must take steps to make sure they wear their seatbelts.
I don't understand why so many people apparently find this to be abhorrent.
McDonald's and unhealthy fast food should be banned to protect people from themselves.
Hell yes.
I agree. No more fatties.
Sometimes I see a woman who I know would be hot if she wasn't so fat and I am disappointed.
JJ on
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I don't know if its relevant to the discussion, but in Australia the driver is responsible for every passenger in his car wearing a seatbelt, and can be fined if they do not.
Also, it takes fucking ages to get a drivers license, you have to do like 40 hours of logged training time with a license owner next to you who has had his license for over 4 years.
Perhaps someone could look up driver fatality statistics for australia? I would do it, but giving out this information is the point where my interest in joining the discussion ends. Sorry.
On the farmsteads, it isn't enforced all that strongly that I remember. In the cities, public transportation is usually superb. What I'm saying is that there isn't as much need or pressure to get the license.
You have never lived in Sydney.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I don't know if its relevant to the discussion, but in Australia the driver is responsible for every passenger in his car wearing a seatbelt, and can be fined if they do not.
Also, it takes fucking ages to get a drivers license, you have to do like 40 hours of logged training time with a license owner next to you who has had his license for over 4 years.
Perhaps someone could look up driver fatality statistics for australia? I would do it, but giving out this information is the point where my interest in joining the discussion ends. Sorry.
On the farmsteads, it isn't enforced all that strongly that I remember. In the cities, public transportation is usually superb. What I'm saying is that there isn't as much need or pressure to get the license.
You have never lived in Sydney.
I sneer at your terrible train system :P I don't recall the buses being too bad though (North of Manly, at least...).
oh, and elec, the driver training reqs in NSW aren't actually nationwide - they're only introducing a similar driver-ed program up here in July, which is why its currently nearly impossible for me to find a driving instructor free outside of work hours - fifty squillion local teenagers are trying to beat that deadline. Little bastards :x. As for fatality stats, try the ABS www.abs.gov.au.
Posts
There is a huge difference between "a public good" and for the "public (common) good". See theoretically you could say that each dollar of research in science benefits man-kind fairly equally. If some families get their insurance paid by me, I really don't benefit. See the military is also considered a public good because each dollar in protects everyone equally.
There are a lot of assets that are protected while you're alive, that you can get ahold of once someone's estate is in probate.
From a physics standpoint, it makes even less sense; in the event of a collision, the principle of inertia turns unrestrained motorists into unguided projectiles, rattling around the passenger compartment like the .22 in Old Yeller's head. On a related and potentially NSFW note, Ireland does not fuck around with their PSAs.
Safety equipment is not manufactured, tested, certified and marketed for the everyday jaunt to the supermarket. It's for when the kid in his dad's Suburban dozes off at 40MPH on the way to school and slams into your Sentra at a red light.
Fail.
No one deserves to die for making a stupid decision, and whether they happen to be your friend or not doesn't change that fact. You're still basing your arguments off of a casual disregard for and dehumanization of strangers, and it's still disgusting.
What about retarded people? They can be pretty stupid. Should we stand back and let them hurt themselves, because that makes everyone more free, and hey, they're no friends of ours anyway?
NO WE SHOULDN'T
That said, the seatbelt law should absolutely and definitely stay.
If I witnessed you doing something stupid, say, suicide by cop, I'd take the bullet for you.
You're not a friend. Not a close or extended family member. In fact, a half hour may reveal that we hate each other. I, however, consider none of that to be relevant.
Well, when I say stupid, I don't mean in the "low intelligence" sense. I mean it more in the "hey, you're acting fucking stupid, knock it off" colloquial sense. I think that colloquial sense is similar to the concept of "foolishness."
Very few people ever deserve to die, and were I in a situation where I could prevent it, I would. I'm not sure I'd take a bullet for a stranger, especially if it were being fired by a cop, like MVMosin would. (thank you, Mosin, by the way). I put friends and family above complete strangers. That hardly implies I think of them as less than human. Let's face it, the odds of me ever having to choose between a stranger or a friend are so incredibly miniscule as to not even exist.
I'll be fine, just give me a minute, a man's got a limit, I can't get a life if my heart's not in it.
I don't. Sufficed to say, I got really pissed off the first time I played Dead Rising.
Yes, you are right. I doubt I'd be able to do that even if I did have the chance, considering the speed at which I can haul my entire body.
I was just using the hypothetical to demonstrate the extremes to which I value life, regardless of whose life it is.
I fed those gimped fucks to the zombies and ran.
:x
You bastard.
Also, it takes fucking ages to get a drivers license, you have to do like 40 hours of logged training time with a license owner next to you who has had his license for over 4 years.
Perhaps someone could look up driver fatality statistics for australia? I would do it, but giving out this information is the point where my interest in joining the discussion ends. Sorry.
Ouch. I bet he was in the hospital for quite some time recovering from that.
Yup. The driver of the white car smashed into a pylon, the driver of the black car went into shock, and the guy who got run the fuck over is fucking dead+++ and buried very deeply. Probably for being a retard.
Hell, even the camera man says "That was beautiful! God damn!"
On the farmsteads, it isn't enforced all that strongly that I remember. In the cities, public transportation is usually superb. What I'm saying is that there isn't as much need or pressure to get the license.
Good. In this case, you can prevent it by instating a seatbelt law.
In my opinion if you arent smart enough to see that you, and everyone in your car should be compelled to wear a seatbelt then you shouldnt be driving anyway. Since we cant stop idiots driving, we thus must take steps to make sure they wear their seatbelts.
Goddamn, these things always remind me of what an awful person I am. I couldn't stop laughing after seeing this, no matter how sorry I felt at the same time that it happened.
While I agree with your sentiment, I don't really believe it is that simple because (a) a car is not public property, and technically you exist both in your car and on the road, so it is somewhat debatable, and, more importantly, (b) it tends to support the government's "right" or whatever to ban iPod use for pedestrians merely because it's "public road." There are restraints to what the government can expect and enforce even in public areas.
I do agree with your comment, but I don't agree the issue is as simple as saying the road is public. The government can go fuck themselves if they try to ban me from using my iPod while crossing any public street. I'll gladly rebel against that, in practice.
To me, this is more a matter of enforcing a civic responsibility to maintain the highest degree of safety possible while you're driving (or a front-seat passenger). That's why cell phones are banned and headphones are banned and seat belts are required - not merely because it is a public road. It is a public road and that is one reason, but that's not a sufficient reason in and of itself.
And that's why I love America.
You can make a thread that you think is reasonable and well thought out. We'll fucking hijack it.
Booyah.
Seriously I have no problem with seatbelt laws. Like I said in the chat thread, I balance the right being infringed with the arguments for the right being infringed. In this case, common sense, public safety, and various other factors persuade me that against that, the negligable infringement upon rights that is seatbelt laws is worthwhile. Almost no right is being infringed by seat belt laws. Right to transportation? No. Right to property? No. Right to self-defense? No. Right to use property in any way you see fit, so long as it doesn't harm someone else? Yes, but only minorly, and it runs up against the the second half of the question.
Its a minor infringement at best.
Therefore seat belt laws= good.
But its not the same as gun laws.
Gun law
Right to self-defense? Infringed. Right to own property? Infringed. Right to use property in any way you see fit, so long as it doesn't harm someone else (range shooting, hunting)? Infringed. Given the continually decreasing #'s of deaths related to gun violence, I don't think that argument generates an overriding reason to suppress the right.
Suppressing any right should only be done when absolutely necessary, and even then, it should be done with as little suppression as is necessary.
Oh and Electric? Seriously, this is not the worst period in American Civil Rights.
A) The whole Jim Crow/Slavery thing. Because apparently being black made some people not human.
C) Alien & and motherfucking Sedition act.
Now if the Patriot act gets extended and expanded: Bad.
Internment camps: Uh-fucking-oh.
Random arrests without prosecution: Really bad. (thank you SC for overruling that and forcing the gov to go to trial. Even if they are dragging their fucking feet).
Suspending elections: Oh bitch. Its ON now.
Edit: Note, any combination of those factors may lead to "it being on"
McDonald's and unhealthy fast food should be banned to protect people from themselves.
Hell yes.
Sometimes I see a woman who I know would be hot if she wasn't so fat and I am disappointed.
You have never lived in Sydney.
I sneer at your terrible train system :P I don't recall the buses being too bad though (North of Manly, at least...).
oh, and elec, the driver training reqs in NSW aren't actually nationwide - they're only introducing a similar driver-ed program up here in July, which is why its currently nearly impossible for me to find a driving instructor free outside of work hours - fifty squillion local teenagers are trying to beat that deadline. Little bastards :x. As for fatality stats, try the ABS www.abs.gov.au.