So I managed to convince my players that they would have a better time if they gave me a few weeks to work out a setting.
I don't have the entire setting figured out yet, but I do know that the magic they are going to be using is going to have its consicuensess. For each attempt at casting they must roll a d10. That number is either going to go towards a count to 100, or be how many blocks they have to remove from a Jenga pile, whichever is more convinient when we actually play. When they hit 100, or have the pile fall, shit will hit the fan. The magic will break, causing something horrible to happen. Most likely ill have it summoning some kind of abomination
I'm sorry, but what system is this for? Because if it's one with regular magic use assumed; like D&D or pathfinder, then you would be better off just telling people not to make spellcasters, rather than dicking them over every 20 spells or so. Especially if there's nothing they can do to prevent it.
There is nothing wrong with having a game where magic is unpredictable and meant to be used with extreme catuion, but I am with Kayne as far as rules systems go: any version of DnD has simply not been designed to be played that way and doing so would cause a bunch of issues.
Don't quote me on this but I recall hearing that WoD's Mage game might have some things similar to what you have in mind. A lot of magic in that game focuses on bending reality in some way or another and abusing your power can make things get rather out of hand...
it's called paradox
there is also all of the warhammer rpgs, where psychic/magic powers are REALLY GODDAMN STRONG but have backlash potential
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
The solution is to play skirmish systems like Infinity and Pulp City
Or just say to hell with it and hop on the Kingdom Death: Monster bandwagon
kingdom death is co-op and also likely not going to do great
but there are a few things on kickstarter that look like rad new skirmish style minis games: godslayer and wild west exodus
one of our dudes who knows minis like i know comics was pimping Wild West Exodus to me the other day at work
he's like
INSTEAD OF HORSES THEY HAVE FLYING SNOWMOBILE LOOKING THINGS
AND ABE LINCOLN HAS A SHOTGUN AX
i'm like sign me up for everything
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CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
edited February 2013
It was a Rick Priestly written sci-fi system that recently canceled it's kickstarter since it was at barely a third of the required funds with a week to go
Basically a perfect example of how not to do a kickstarter, even if it sounded like a novel concept
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Do not have a cow, mortal.
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
So I managed to convince my players that they would have a better time if they gave me a few weeks to work out a setting.
I don't have the entire setting figured out yet, but I do know that the magic they are going to be using is going to have its consicuensess. For each attempt at casting they must roll a d10. That number is either going to go towards a count to 100, or be how many blocks they have to remove from a Jenga pile, whichever is more convinient when we actually play. When they hit 100, or have the pile fall, shit will hit the fan. The magic will break, causing something horrible to happen. Most likely ill have it summoning some kind of abomination
I'm sorry, but what system is this for? Because if it's one with regular magic use assumed; like D&D or pathfinder, then you would be better off just telling people not to make spellcasters, rather than dicking them over every 20 spells or so. Especially if there's nothing they can do to prevent it.
Its DE?ADs [%] system. Basically any action they want to do I give a difficulty. If they role under that number they succeed. Basically this is a way for them to have something extremely effective at taking something down, but give them potential consequences for relying on it
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
So I managed to convince my players that they would have a better time if they gave me a few weeks to work out a setting.
I don't have the entire setting figured out yet, but I do know that the magic they are going to be using is going to have its consicuensess. For each attempt at casting they must roll a d10. That number is either going to go towards a count to 100, or be how many blocks they have to remove from a Jenga pile, whichever is more convinient when we actually play. When they hit 100, or have the pile fall, shit will hit the fan. The magic will break, causing something horrible to happen. Most likely ill have it summoning some kind of abomination
I'm sorry, but what system is this for? Because if it's one with regular magic use assumed; like D&D or pathfinder, then you would be better off just telling people not to make spellcasters, rather than dicking them over every 20 spells or so. Especially if there's nothing they can do to prevent it.
There is nothing wrong with having a game where magic is unpredictable and meant to be used with extreme catuion, but I am with Kayne as far as rules systems go: any version of DnD has simply not been designed to be played that way and doing so would cause a bunch of issues.
There are systems in which magic is inherently dangerous, Warhammer and Rolemaster come to mind, I'm sure there are others. But the thing is you have to then balance the magic such that it is rare enough, or powerful enough that the risks can either be mitigated or are deemed worthwhile by the players. Who will probably end up blowing themselves up in the long run because players are terrible at not using big fuckoff magic whenever they can, but at least in those systems the risks are clearly understood and the bad end is the player's own doing.
For example, in Rolemaster Magic use, at least for the blasty types, is a skill roll, in which you get bonuses for taking longer to cast, casting loudly and grandiosely and so on. So low level spellcaster will take a turn or two to throw out their fireball or what have you. However, they can also try to rush the spell, or overcast something they don't normally have access to, which provides penalties to their roll, and if they fail the roll by enough the spell doesn't just fizzle, it backfires (with myriad awful/hilarious effects). A system like that works because the players know the risks, know how to avoid them, but can purposefully accept more risk for greater reward.
What you are proposing here, systemically, is analogous to critical fumbles, which I loathe. Regardless of how good the party wizard is at using magic, roughly 1 in 20 attempts he makes to cast will end in catastrophic failure. Not ideal, given how often a wizard will want to be casting spells.
The idea of magic itself being a semi-sentient force on it's own is cool, but find a better way to model it in game than just having it lash out randomnly at anyone that uses it. Maybe design magic itself as a character, like deities that clerics draw on, give it some goals and some things it approves and disapproves of. Then give spellcasters calling upon it bonuses for doing what it wants, and penalties for what it doesn't want. Just make sure that even with the penalties the caster is still able to access his major function (spellcasting) without too much hassle. If in 3rd, 3.5 or Pathfinder I would suggest a low, but fail-able concentration check, if in 4th, maybe it burns a healing surge, I dunno.
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ButtlordFornicusLord of Bondage and PainRegistered Userregular
new no quarter cover is up
i'm looking forward to reading about how they designed CoC but that's a dwarf with a steam-powered mace
The magic backfiring on them horribly is also something expect to happen. I fully expect it to happen by the end of the first session, and whatever is released in the horrible moment is going to be what sets off the main campaign
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
The magic backfiring on them horribly is also something expect to happen. I fully expect it to happen by the end of the first session, and whatever is released in the horrible moment is going to be what sets off the main campaign
Ah, okay, as long as magic isn't a major part of any character's main function than go nuts. Sorry I jumped on you there, I just really hate it when players get penalized for doing the thing they are supposed to be good at. Admittedly, if it's something that is supposed to happen to set of the campaign just do it when you think it will be most appropriate. You don't need a system to decide when to pull the next major campaign event. Just making extra work for yourself. :P
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ButtlordFornicusLord of Bondage and PainRegistered Userregular
i hope to shit that the dwarf colossal is shorter than all the other ones
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CorporateLogoThe toilet knowshow I feelRegistered Userregular
edited February 2013
I love how unintentionally hilarious the original "Page 5" mantra for WM is these days
Put down the plastic and play like you've got a pair!
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
I might just be especially sore about the critical fumble subject right now, since in my Wednesday Pathfinder game last night the party was protecting a caravan that got ambushed by a large orc warband, and my dwarf fighter's first attack was a critical miss and the DM has those fucking fumble and crit cards and the one she drew for me was I could only make a move action my next turn. So I spent the next 45 minutes reading on my Nook instead of caring about the game since I had no input I could make in this long and 25 or so person fight.
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
I might just be especially sore about the critical fumble subject right now, since in my Wednesday Pathfinder game last night the party was protecting a caravan that got ambushed by a large orc warband, and my dwarf fighter's first attack was a critical miss and the DM has those fucking fumble and crit cards and the one she drew for me was I could only make a move action my next turn. So I spent the next 45 minutes reading on my Nook instead of caring about the game since I had no input I could make in this long and 25 or so person fight.
That sounds like iconic gameplay, right there.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
I might just be especially sore about the critical fumble subject right now, since in my Wednesday Pathfinder game last night the party was protecting a caravan that got ambushed by a large orc warband, and my dwarf fighter's first attack was a critical miss and the DM has those fucking fumble and crit cards and the one she drew for me was I could only make a move action my next turn. So I spent the next 45 minutes reading on my Nook instead of caring about the game since I had no input I could make in this long and 25 or so person fight.
That sounds like iconic gameplay, right there.
Critical fumble rules irk me to no end, especially once you start getting more than 1 attack at which point you have to decide whether even taking the last attack is worth the chance of rolling a one and then possibly losing your whole next round. In my Saturday game the current DM has the fumble deck and is totally enamored with it, I cannot wait until I get a chance to DM once his campaign is finished, I will immediately shove those cards into a wood chipper.
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
Does he have a critical success deck too? Or is it just one sided fucking with the players? Because that's being an asshole, and thus as I said, "iconic".
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
Does he have a critical success deck too? Or is it just one sided fucking with the players? Because that's being an asshole, and thus as I said, "iconic".
even if you had both success and failure decks, critical charts / decks / whatevers always fuck more with the players than monsters.
Over the course of a game, any given player will have way more attacks targeted against them than any given monster (since those tend to die or otherwise be removed from play pretty quick). So there are way more chances for a player to be hit with a critical hit than any monster.
On the other hand, over the course of a game, players tend to survive longer than monsters and be the center of attention so each player will be rolling more attacks than any single monster. So again, way more chances to roll a critical miss.
well, non humans can multiclass so you can do all three at once, sharing experience evenly across all three.
However, Woman caps out at level 6, having reached Glass Ceiling, and you are required to still split your experience three ways despite being unable to acquire more levels in that class.
He has a Critical success deck too, and I am really not a fan of that either because it quite often has cards that have long lasting or permanent side effects (usually you just lose some stats which come back slowly over time, but occasionally things like missing fingers pop up) which has a very lopsided effect against the players, ie a monster losing 4 dex is debilitated for one encounter while a player might be affected for the next several days.
I can deal with the critical success deck though, the critical miss deck bugs me because critical misses are not part of the core rules and take fun away from the game for no damned reason other than to fuck with the players.
well, non humans can multiclass so you can do all three at once, sharing experience evenly across all three.
However, Woman caps out at level 6, having reached Glass Ceiling, and you are required to still split your experience three ways despite being unable to acquire more levels in that class.
doesn't Lesbian have a special ability involving three-ways?
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He has a Critical success deck too, and I am really not a fan of that either because it quite often has cards that have long lasting or permanent side effects (usually you just lose some stats which come back slowly over time, but occasionally things like missing fingers pop up) which has a very lopsided effect against the players, ie a monster losing 4 dex is debilitated for one encounter while a player might be affected for the next several days.
I can deal with the critical success deck though, the critical miss deck bugs me because critical misses are not part of the core rules and take fun away from the game for no damned reason other than to fuck with the players.
next time you play, keep a running tally of how many times each player rolls and attack and how many times they have an attack rolled against them. If possible, also keep a running tally of the same for each monster.
That should show your friend how fucked up both critical successes and failures are.
Attacked by tweeeeeeees!
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
Does he have a critical success deck too? Or is it just one sided fucking with the players? Because that's being an asshole, and thus as I said, "iconic".
even if you had both success and failure decks, critical charts / decks / whatevers always fuck more with the players than monsters.
Over the course of a game, any given player will have way more attacks targeted against them than any given monster (since those tend to die or otherwise be removed from play pretty quick). So there are way more chances for a player to be hit with a critical hit than any monster.
On the other hand, over the course of a game, players tend to survive longer than monsters and be the center of attention so each player will be rolling more attacks than any single monster. So again, way more chances to roll a critical miss.
Oh very true. It's just the fact that if he only had detracting mechanics with no bonuses, he was a serious ass. Crit/Fumble mechanics are no one's bag of tea, unless they enjoy masochism or schadenfreude. At least that's my stance on it.
I make art things! deviantART:Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
well, non humans can multiclass so you can do all three at once, sharing experience evenly across all three.
However, Woman caps out at level 6, having reached Glass Ceiling, and you are required to still split your experience three ways despite being unable to acquire more levels in that class.
doesn't Lesbian have a special ability involving three-ways?
no, that's the "desperate bisexual"
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
well, non humans can multiclass so you can do all three at once, sharing experience evenly across all three.
However, Woman caps out at level 6, having reached Glass Ceiling, and you are required to still split your experience three ways despite being unable to acquire more levels in that class.
if i'm not mistaken int he first edition of Advanced dungeons and dragons, human females and male orcs both capped out at 17 strength, unless they were a fighter.
He has a Critical success deck too, and I am really not a fan of that either because it quite often has cards that have long lasting or permanent side effects (usually you just lose some stats which come back slowly over time, but occasionally things like missing fingers pop up) which has a very lopsided effect against the players, ie a monster losing 4 dex is debilitated for one encounter while a player might be affected for the next several days.
I can deal with the critical success deck though, the critical miss deck bugs me because critical misses are not part of the core rules and take fun away from the game for no damned reason other than to fuck with the players.
Yeah, I really miss 4th editions crit rules when playing any other form of D&D.
now I need to bust out my 1st ed DMG when I get home. That prostitute chart isn't ringing a bell and you'd think that would be something you'd remember.
Also the way the paragraph is written seems like a parody of how Gygax wrote more than the real deal.
Though hell, there is so much wacky shit in the 1st ed DMG it could be in there.
Posts
it's called paradox
there is also all of the warhammer rpgs, where psychic/magic powers are REALLY GODDAMN STRONG but have backlash potential
kingdom death is co-op and also likely not going to do great
but there are a few things on kickstarter that look like rad new skirmish style minis games: godslayer and wild west exodus
Wait scratch that one
what is that
one of our dudes who knows minis like i know comics was pimping Wild West Exodus to me the other day at work
he's like
INSTEAD OF HORSES THEY HAVE FLYING SNOWMOBILE LOOKING THINGS
AND ABE LINCOLN HAS A SHOTGUN AX
i'm like sign me up for everything
Basically a perfect example of how not to do a kickstarter, even if it sounded like a novel concept
I can't tell if it is taking itself seriously or is intentionally over the top tongue in cheek, but it still looks pretty nifty
also they are making a comic series to go along with it
it's definitely tongue in cheek
the comic
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
this is me not remotely caring about that
i think "mechanical spider" was the first thing i asked about it
There are systems in which magic is inherently dangerous, Warhammer and Rolemaster come to mind, I'm sure there are others. But the thing is you have to then balance the magic such that it is rare enough, or powerful enough that the risks can either be mitigated or are deemed worthwhile by the players. Who will probably end up blowing themselves up in the long run because players are terrible at not using big fuckoff magic whenever they can, but at least in those systems the risks are clearly understood and the bad end is the player's own doing.
For example, in Rolemaster Magic use, at least for the blasty types, is a skill roll, in which you get bonuses for taking longer to cast, casting loudly and grandiosely and so on. So low level spellcaster will take a turn or two to throw out their fireball or what have you. However, they can also try to rush the spell, or overcast something they don't normally have access to, which provides penalties to their roll, and if they fail the roll by enough the spell doesn't just fizzle, it backfires (with myriad awful/hilarious effects). A system like that works because the players know the risks, know how to avoid them, but can purposefully accept more risk for greater reward.
What you are proposing here, systemically, is analogous to critical fumbles, which I loathe. Regardless of how good the party wizard is at using magic, roughly 1 in 20 attempts he makes to cast will end in catastrophic failure. Not ideal, given how often a wizard will want to be casting spells.
The idea of magic itself being a semi-sentient force on it's own is cool, but find a better way to model it in game than just having it lash out randomnly at anyone that uses it. Maybe design magic itself as a character, like deities that clerics draw on, give it some goals and some things it approves and disapproves of. Then give spellcasters calling upon it bonuses for doing what it wants, and penalties for what it doesn't want. Just make sure that even with the penalties the caster is still able to access his major function (spellcasting) without too much hassle. If in 3rd, 3.5 or Pathfinder I would suggest a low, but fail-able concentration check, if in 4th, maybe it burns a healing surge, I dunno.
i'm looking forward to reading about how they designed CoC but that's a dwarf with a steam-powered mace
sign me the fuck up now, i want two copies
That sounds like iconic gameplay, right there.
Critical fumble rules irk me to no end, especially once you start getting more than 1 attack at which point you have to decide whether even taking the last attack is worth the chance of rolling a one and then possibly losing your whole next round. In my Saturday game the current DM has the fumble deck and is totally enamored with it, I cannot wait until I get a chance to DM once his campaign is finished, I will immediately shove those cards into a wood chipper.
do I have to multiclass Female and Elf?
Where am I going to fit in levels of Lesbian?
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
even if you had both success and failure decks, critical charts / decks / whatevers always fuck more with the players than monsters.
Over the course of a game, any given player will have way more attacks targeted against them than any given monster (since those tend to die or otherwise be removed from play pretty quick). So there are way more chances for a player to be hit with a critical hit than any monster.
On the other hand, over the course of a game, players tend to survive longer than monsters and be the center of attention so each player will be rolling more attacks than any single monster. So again, way more chances to roll a critical miss.
However, Woman caps out at level 6, having reached Glass Ceiling, and you are required to still split your experience three ways despite being unable to acquire more levels in that class.
How long do you think it will be before they try to (re)introduce a limit on the Strength attribute for female characters?
I can deal with the critical success deck though, the critical miss deck bugs me because critical misses are not part of the core rules and take fun away from the game for no damned reason other than to fuck with the players.
doesn't Lesbian have a special ability involving three-ways?
Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
next time you play, keep a running tally of how many times each player rolls and attack and how many times they have an attack rolled against them. If possible, also keep a running tally of the same for each monster.
That should show your friend how fucked up both critical successes and failures are.
Oh very true. It's just the fact that if he only had detracting mechanics with no bonuses, he was a serious ass. Crit/Fumble mechanics are no one's bag of tea, unless they enjoy masochism or schadenfreude. At least that's my stance on it.
no, that's the "desperate bisexual"
I am so glad I did not play back in ye old days of D&D, and can simply enjoy the "iconic" stories the old folks tell.
first time anyone has spoken that sentence
the shocking answer!
Yeah, I really miss 4th editions crit rules when playing any other form of D&D.
Pffft, who're you kidding?
FATAL sold at least like 2 copies.
Also the way the paragraph is written seems like a parody of how Gygax wrote more than the real deal.
Though hell, there is so much wacky shit in the 1st ed DMG it could be in there.