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Best Introductory D&D System
RazzleDazz
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So I got suckered in to running a Dungeons and Dragons games with some friends. None of them have played before, I used to play when I was a teenager and came up playing second edition. I haven't played since high school and am looking for a recommendation of what edition to get, with me not knowing about any of the changes to D&D simce about 2001. What are they on now, Edition 4.5 or something? For reference, we are all in our mid-twenties and I don't think anyone is interested in really deep game mechanics, just a simple combat / skill system. But there must be dice!
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I'm a fan of the 4th edition combat, as well, although I know the combat grid is controversial.
There's also Pathfinder, which is essentially "3.75th Edition", a more refined version of the 3.X system. Both systems definitely use dice, however!
if you want to check out 4th edition, the quick start rules are free, as are two adventures.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/quickstartrules.pdf
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/h1.pdf
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4dnd/khybersharvest
while the Pathfinder system can be looked at here:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG
Pathfinder is obviously also great (one of my friends playing with me in the 4E game started a PF game with us), and it's waaayyyy easier to look up rules and stuff for free online for it than it is for 4E (since all that info is legally free from Paizo-- it's just the awesome premade adventure books that aren't free as best I understand it). PF is certainly more complex than 4E, but it's not super hard to learn, and everyone can fairly easily look up all sorts of mechanics stuff online from D20PFSRD. It is possible to google stuff for 4E but I can't really recommend anything specific on that front. You have a lot more choices to make when you level and more things to tweak and things to look up and so on than in 4E, which can be either good or bad because it adds complexity. Also, if you ever need to bring in additional players or your friends want to play with people later on, basically everyone is happy to play PF (and like I said, people seem to be mad about 4E for reasons). It's a great system for sure, but slightly less newbie-friendly than 4E if that's your primary concern. I personally enjoy both systems almost equally, but it took me a good while to get used to the transition to PF since there's more to learn about.
I don't feel like there would be any reason to play 3.5 at this point when PF exists, and NEXT is still in alpha or beta or whatever (and it's still in a VERY... err... "rough" state, I hear-- they really don't seem to be sure what they're doing with it).
I just think Pathfinder gives you the better tabletop experience for the money.
Yeah this is what would happen with my friends.
"You get shoved in to the bag holding*."
"Can I try and steal loot from it?"
"Yes."
Boom, rogue now has magic daggers.
*Bag of holding having no air can suck a dick.
I feel like these two statements contradict each other.
We have used Lego dudes for mini's before. As for a grid, we have a whiteboard that I spent a few hours and some beers going over with a straightedge and a permanent marker to make a 1 inch by 1 inch grid. Then we just use dry erase markers to sketch out rough maps. And maybe some more legos to create 3d terrain.
My eyes have been opened.
http://www.amazon.com/Chessex-Role-Playing-Play-Mat/dp/B0015IQO2O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364306374&sr=8-1&keywords=dry+erase+grid+maps
This is basically the exact thing my DM uses and it is the greatest. You just stick it on a table, bring out your markers, and boom, you can draw whatever you want. Plus it's got a hex grid on the back if you ever end up playing anything that uses one of those! My DM's is actually wet-erase, not dry erase, but I don't know which is better anyway.
Edit: Ahhh, looks like even though your query was "dry-erase" that's still a wet-erase one anyway.
Edit: Although everyone hates the Inverse AC of 2E, and that THAC0 thing, so maybe you should update :P
Hence my additional statement of "pathfinder gives the better tabletop experience."
4E is definitely easier for beginners because it gives you healing surges, etc. but both beginner boxes are completely newbie proof and Pathfinder just feels more like "the classic tabletop adventure setting" more than the 4E beginner box.
I mean it's really just opinion at that point. I just enjoyed playing the Pathfinder beginner adventure more than the D&D Red Box. The D&D edition felt a little static.
See? You have been fooled by HERESY!
What you are describing is a Flip-Mat, proof that man has grown from the uncivilized beast that uses vinyl mats into the civilized gentleman who uses a proper gaming aid.
Vinyl mats are pains in the ass and super easy to fuck up permanently as well as requiring wet erase markers. Go with the Flip-Mat, which is also considerably cheaper, and rejoice.
If the 2nd edition books aren't handy, I'd recommend pathfinder - not because it's easy to learn (that's 4th), but because that's the best system to use going forward (assuming this pen and paper thing works out long term)
ah, ok
You know, I'd almost say exactly the opposite of this. There is no "best" system, if you think system a is way easier to learn the concept of the tabletop RPG with, then use it to teach the concept! Make use of those virtues! If you think system b is better for advanced users then certainly give it a go down the line once they have their feet wet. We have too many in the tabletop hobby who think there is only one true game, breaking the habit early on would be a good thing.
Though 2nd edition played straight from the book would annoy the shit out of me at this point just from initiative. So much wasted time.
I can't agree with this enough.
Start with 4th edition because it's easy to learn and because it enumerates a lot of your typical options. Get players into the mood. Switch to Pathfinder (if you don't like 4e, I happen to love 4e except for the year-long combat) if you want to keep the fantasy theme, but give the players a more freeform experience.
Move onto Shadowrun when the group feels like playing something lethal. Teach them about dice pools and build points.
Hit up Call of Cthulhu on halloween and give them the sense of a traditional dice-based system truly built for roleplaying. Bonus points if they all die or go mad by midnight.
Show them Fiasco when one of your guys isn't available to play and teach them that dice are sometimes only even tangentially necessary. Alternate between Fiasco, Microscope and Everyone is John when you can't play your normal fare. (As a note, all 3 of these games are incredibly simple. Everyone is John is not only free, but you can learn it in ~10 minutes and it's hilariously fun)
Teach them about tabletop roleplaying!
I'm going to go ahead and guess that my DM's mat is probably from the glory days before such majesty existed, whatever it's made out of. His IS in fantastic shape despite tons of use though! He at least takes great care of his inferior equipment!
In general you have a point. We are talking about a first system, and in specific, 4th edition. I don't know about your experiences with 4th, but although it's fun and easy to *learn*, it's not much fun to *play*. Unless you're looking for Warhammer, in which case I'd like to point out Mordheim.
If a new group is looking for a side dish of "What is pen-and-paper all about, anyway?", in my experience 4th edition is a bad place to start.
I thought you were implying he was using dry erase markers which will murder a vinyl mat. A lot of old timers have a strong (unreasonable) affection for the old vinyl they grew up with and barring screw ups they do last. I just have a deep and abiding (unreasonable) hatred of wet erase markers and their ability to always get on my hands so flip mats spelled the retirement of my vinyl gear.
I disagree. The stuff that I think makes tabletop play different and good will be present regardless of the system you use. Some systems might make it easier (for you or me) to accentuate them but for a new group this doesn't matter. If they have the taste them any amount will hook them. Once you know they like ice cream is the time to hunt for the perfect flavor, starting out you need to make it easy to find out if they like cold creamy stuff or you're wasting your time.
As an intro I think 4th is an excellent place to start because all the fiddly bits are easily hidden for awhile. If Pathfinder (or whatever) is the game for the group trying it out will make it clear to everybody involved. Hell, if it is really that much suited to excellent play it should be a breath of fresh air to the group and will be that much more enthusiastically switched to.
Marketplace of ideas!
Is it the best system? Who knows. Opinions be opinions. Anywho.
The rules are simple, but flexible. The grid combat makes fights easy to understand/visualize. All players will feel heroic (and useful!) at level one. You almost have to try to make a useless character. Characters are dirt simple to make. Monsters are dirt simple to make. There are a couple really good premade starting adventures. Keep on the Shadowfells, for instance. There's a few more, this one is free.
Speaking of free. Free character sheets. Free quick start rules.
The combat heavy experience can be easily handled by using behind the DM Screen magic, player succeeds with an attack and hey maybe he described it in a cool way or was inventive with it? Just have the target die. Or take extra damage. You're the DM, player experience is prime.
Non D&D, the Star Wars EotE Beginners Game is really good, and easy. Marvel Heroic Roleplaying is as well. Both super fun, super flexible and quite intuitive.
As recently as a year ago I'd have agreed with you. However, my personal experience playing in three different games (all different groups and DMs) showed me that 4th edition rules lend themselves to combat-heavy sessions. Which is OK if that's what you're into, but even so there are better ways to get that experience (thus me bringing up Mordheim).
Three different tables, three different games, all involving 5 minutes of iffy RP (not hyperbole, really about five minute's worth) followed by two 90-minute combats. Most sessions ended up being about four hours.
The only thing in common was that all three DMs were new to pen-and-paper and hadn't played non-computer RPGs before. "It's roleplaying, Jim... but not as we know it."
That ship sailed when Hasbro decided to use the D&D name for 4th edition. There is room for more than one system, and I think 4th has a place in gaming. Just not the place it's in now.
Personally, I really loved 4E and don't get why people seem to look down on it. Its easy to learn and easy to play! I don't want to have to look through a trillion books if I want to do something, I feel like even pathfinder was so complicated and I had to make all these cheat sheets for myself so I could stop looking stuff up and just get on with it!! Sure the combat is long, but I feel like a huge part of the enjoyment is the ridiculous characters my friends created and the cray scenarios we got into.
I guess it depends on what your friends are like. If they want something more complicated, pathfinder is the way to go and its a blast. If they're looking for something more straightforward I've had a great time with 4E
It might be worthwhile to start your friends with Dungeon World. It's a more free-form system. It should be more welcoming to people who aren't already steeped in whichever edition of D&D, and it will certainly promote imagination and fun roleplaying more than the more mechanically focused D&D options people are talking about.
It's extremely unfair to make a statement like "That edition is not fun to play."
Instead the correct statement is, "That edition was not fun for me to play."
And you can share your experience.
Lots of people love 4e. Otherwise, they wouldn't still be selling the books.
Lots of people love Pathfinder. See above.
Lots of people love 3.5. There's still 3rd party material coming out for it. Somewhere. Probably.
The point is, let's stick with statements of relatively objectivity.
Stop being awful at these threads or I'm disallowing them and funneling all of you into CF.
D&D 4th Edition.
This version of the system did two very important things. First, it condensed the skill list, making it easier to know what skill to use in any situation. This allows for a more friendly pick up and play ability. The second thing it did was create linear paths of character advancement that is almost completely balanced. Each character is self-sufficient in combat ability, which keeps any player from falling behind the others in ability or use. This also allows for easier monster balance, allowing the GM to use straight from the book creatures, easing prep time.
The downside to this is that it limits flexibility in character design. Once you choose to play a thief, you are for the most part locked into playing a pure thief the entire game. With 4th edition, multi-classing slows your linear progression in the leveling phase, giving you some variety of ability, but costing you overall capability. It also costs you feats to multi-class, which over all further weakens your character.
Pathfinder (D&D 3.75)
This version of the d20 system allows a massive amount of flexibility in character design and roleplaying. A player is capable of making pretty much anything they can think of which can give the player a better attachment to their character and allow for better roleplaying opportunities.
However, with this comes a more complex system that rewards those who know the system by allowing them to create massively powerful characters. Someone who does not fully understand the system can quickly become outclassed by someone who does, and that can lead to hurt feelings at the table and people not wanting to continue to play. This also leads to more work for the GM, as by midgame (level 10 to 12) he/she will need to begin customizing creatures in order to continue to challenge the players.
Neither system is "better" than the other. The truth is that system preference really comes down to the players at your table. For a new group of players that have never really played a tabletop game before, I would recommend 4th edition, as the balanced and more structured system will support learning how to play better. But, in all honesty, any system would work as long as your group is willing to take the time to learn. We once brought in a new Roleplayer to our group with Shadowrun, which is about as complicated of a system as you can get.