[BIOSHOCK INFINITE]: Burial At Sea Part 2: March 25th!

minor incident

MrDelish wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

Also, regarding the timeline...

It's alluded to that when Lutece came to Booker to recruit him, he had fallen into a depression about his daughter and was living in squalor in his office.

Now, if he had Anna at 18, spent some years working for Pinkerton, and then some time running his own detective business, the timeline just doesn't work. What makes more sense to me is that he worked for Pinkerton for years, then opened his own business, then married, then at 38 (in 1912) had Anna and his wife died. Shortly afterwards Comstock buys Anna, then Booker mopes around in his disgusting office for some months before Lutece finds him.

So, what I'm saying is that there had to be time travel in one of 3 places:

A) Comstock went back in time to take Anna from a younger Booker. This would explain why Comstock appears much older than Booker, but little else, and his appearance could just be chalked up to cancer and the tear machines.

Booker is taken forward in time shortly after the deal to rescue his now-grown daughter from Comstock 20 years in the future. This seems to be the perfect explanation to me, except that it would mean the year on Columbia during the bulk of the game is actually 1932, not 1912.

C) Comstock has to go forward in time to to take Anna. In this scenario, Comstock is 18 in 1892 and Booker has Anna at 38 in 1912. This would explain how Anna/Elizabeth is 20 when we meet her on Columbia, AND how it seems relatively recent for Booker, but it doesn't explain why she seems much younger than 90-something in the 1980s segment.

None of those are even remotely supported by the story presented in the game. First, Comstock and Booker are the same age. The discrepancy in looks is explained in voxlogs. Second, Anna was taken before or in the very beginning of 1895 according to the voxlogs. Third, most of Booker's memories are invented, and the quote in the beginning is heavy foreshadowing of that. Finally, the game has "1912" all over the place as the current year, including the "1912 raffle" at the beginning.

I didn't get either of the two voxlogs you mention. Is there a transcript of all of them anywhere online yet?

But regardless...

I still think Booker's state when Lutece recruited him doesn't jive with someone who lost their daughter 2 decades prior.

It also doesn't explain 90+ year old Elizabeth in the 1980s looking like a spry 60-year old.

MrDelish

minor incident wrote: »

MrDelish wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

Also, regarding the timeline...

It's alluded to that when Lutece came to Booker to recruit him, he had fallen into a depression about his daughter and was living in squalor in his office.

Now, if he had Anna at 18, spent some years working for Pinkerton, and then some time running his own detective business, the timeline just doesn't work. What makes more sense to me is that he worked for Pinkerton for years, then opened his own business, then married, then at 38 (in 1912) had Anna and his wife died. Shortly afterwards Comstock buys Anna, then Booker mopes around in his disgusting office for some months before Lutece finds him.

So, what I'm saying is that there had to be time travel in one of 3 places:

A) Comstock went back in time to take Anna from a younger Booker. This would explain why Comstock appears much older than Booker, but little else, and his appearance could just be chalked up to cancer and the tear machines.

Booker is taken forward in time shortly after the deal to rescue his now-grown daughter from Comstock 20 years in the future. This seems to be the perfect explanation to me, except that it would mean the year on Columbia during the bulk of the game is actually 1932, not 1912.

C) Comstock has to go forward in time to to take Anna. In this scenario, Comstock is 18 in 1892 and Booker has Anna at 38 in 1912. This would explain how Anna/Elizabeth is 20 when we meet her on Columbia, AND how it seems relatively recent for Booker, but it doesn't explain why she seems much younger than 90-something in the 1980s segment.

None of those are even remotely supported by the story presented in the game. First, Comstock and Booker are the same age. The discrepancy in looks is explained in voxlogs. Second, Anna was taken before or in the very beginning of 1895 according to the voxlogs. Third, most of Booker's memories are invented, and the quote in the beginning is heavy foreshadowing of that. Finally, the game has "1912" all over the place as the current year, including the "1912 raffle" at the beginning.

I didn't get either of the two voxlogs you mention. Is there a transcript of all of them anywhere online yet?

But regardless...

I still think Booker's state when Lutece recruited him doesn't jive with someone who lost their daughter 2 decades prior.

It also doesn't explain 90+ year old Elizabeth in the 1980s looking like a spry 60-year old.

subtitles: http://pastebin.com/cqQ7bmh3

Booker's "state" is irrelevant because his mind is inventing memories, like the beginning quote says. Also, I let Elizabeth's young-ish appearance pass as it was likely an art design decision and nothing else in the story even remotely suggests that her age should not be normal.

minor incident

MrDelish wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

MrDelish wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

Also, regarding the timeline...

It's alluded to that when Lutece came to Booker to recruit him, he had fallen into a depression about his daughter and was living in squalor in his office.

Now, if he had Anna at 18, spent some years working for Pinkerton, and then some time running his own detective business, the timeline just doesn't work. What makes more sense to me is that he worked for Pinkerton for years, then opened his own business, then married, then at 38 (in 1912) had Anna and his wife died. Shortly afterwards Comstock buys Anna, then Booker mopes around in his disgusting office for some months before Lutece finds him.

So, what I'm saying is that there had to be time travel in one of 3 places:

A) Comstock went back in time to take Anna from a younger Booker. This would explain why Comstock appears much older than Booker, but little else, and his appearance could just be chalked up to cancer and the tear machines.

Booker is taken forward in time shortly after the deal to rescue his now-grown daughter from Comstock 20 years in the future. This seems to be the perfect explanation to me, except that it would mean the year on Columbia during the bulk of the game is actually 1932, not 1912.

C) Comstock has to go forward in time to to take Anna. In this scenario, Comstock is 18 in 1892 and Booker has Anna at 38 in 1912. This would explain how Anna/Elizabeth is 20 when we meet her on Columbia, AND how it seems relatively recent for Booker, but it doesn't explain why she seems much younger than 90-something in the 1980s segment.

None of those are even remotely supported by the story presented in the game. First, Comstock and Booker are the same age. The discrepancy in looks is explained in voxlogs. Second, Anna was taken before or in the very beginning of 1895 according to the voxlogs. Third, most of Booker's memories are invented, and the quote in the beginning is heavy foreshadowing of that. Finally, the game has "1912" all over the place as the current year, including the "1912 raffle" at the beginning.

I didn't get either of the two voxlogs you mention. Is there a transcript of all of them anywhere online yet?

But regardless...

I still think Booker's state when Lutece recruited him doesn't jive with someone who lost their daughter 2 decades prior.

It also doesn't explain 90+ year old Elizabeth in the 1980s looking like a spry 60-year old.

subtitles: http://pastebin.com/cqQ7bmh3

Booker's "state" is irrelevant because his mind is inventing memories, like the beginning quote says. Also, I let Elizabeth's young-ish appearance pass as it was likely an art design decision and nothing else in the story even remotely suggests that her age should not be normal.

Thanks for the link!

And now...

it all being 20 years later for Booker is somehow even more depressing. I still think the art design on old-Elizabeth is questionable, and I think superfast-aging Comstock is a little weird (no one else involved with the process suffers that side effect, presumably? And Comstock becoming a huge religious leader/prophet at around 20 years old out of nowhere also seems rather suspect), but the audio logs really clear up a lot of aspects that I wasn't sure about.

OptimusZed

minor incident wrote: »

MrDelish wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

Also, regarding the timeline...

It's alluded to that when Lutece came to Booker to recruit him, he had fallen into a depression about his daughter and was living in squalor in his office.

Now, if he had Anna at 18, spent some years working for Pinkerton, and then some time running his own detective business, the timeline just doesn't work. What makes more sense to me is that he worked for Pinkerton for years, then opened his own business, then married, then at 38 (in 1912) had Anna and his wife died. Shortly afterwards Comstock buys Anna, then Booker mopes around in his disgusting office for some months before Lutece finds him.

So, what I'm saying is that there had to be time travel in one of 3 places:

A) Comstock went back in time to take Anna from a younger Booker. This would explain why Comstock appears much older than Booker, but little else, and his appearance could just be chalked up to cancer and the tear machines.

Booker is taken forward in time shortly after the deal to rescue his now-grown daughter from Comstock 20 years in the future. This seems to be the perfect explanation to me, except that it would mean the year on Columbia during the bulk of the game is actually 1932, not 1912.

C) Comstock has to go forward in time to to take Anna. In this scenario, Comstock is 18 in 1892 and Booker has Anna at 38 in 1912. This would explain how Anna/Elizabeth is 20 when we meet her on Columbia, AND how it seems relatively recent for Booker, but it doesn't explain why she seems much younger than 90-something in the 1980s segment.

None of those are even remotely supported by the story presented in the game. First, Comstock and Booker are the same age. The discrepancy in looks is explained in voxlogs. Second, Anna was taken before or in the very beginning of 1895 according to the voxlogs. Third, most of Booker's memories are invented, and the quote in the beginning is heavy foreshadowing of that. Finally, the game has "1912" all over the place as the current year, including the "1912 raffle" at the beginning.

I didn't get either of the two voxlogs you mention. Is there a transcript of all of them anywhere online yet?

But regardless...

I still think Booker's state when Lutece recruited him doesn't jive with someone who lost their daughter 2 decades prior.

It also doesn't explain 90+ year old Elizabeth in the 1980s looking like a spry 60-year old.

Booker specifically says "I know this place, I was here. 20 years ago, right after wounded knee." when he is taken to the baptism site.

Even assuming he's using "20 years" as an estimate, that plus pinkerton/baby-making time is an awfully small window for Liz to be born in before being taken if she's actually 20.

There are time-travel shenanigans afoot. Which would help explain Comstock's appearance as well.

CaptainNemo

Really, this being Infinite, it'd be weirder if the timeline were simple.

minor incident

CaptainNemo wrote: »

Really, this being Infinite, it'd be weirder if the timeline were simple.

I'm just gonna go watch something less confusing. Like Primer.

Wassermelone

Anyone have some tips for a gameplay section? I think its pretty late game so I suppose only people that have completed it:

So defending Comstock's airship from the Vox is like a direct injection of frustration into my veins.

Any tips?

emnmnme

OptimusZed wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

MrDelish wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

Also, regarding the timeline...

It's alluded to that when Lutece came to Booker to recruit him, he had fallen into a depression about his daughter and was living in squalor in his office.

Now, if he had Anna at 18, spent some years working for Pinkerton, and then some time running his own detective business, the timeline just doesn't work. What makes more sense to me is that he worked for Pinkerton for years, then opened his own business, then married, then at 38 (in 1912) had Anna and his wife died. Shortly afterwards Comstock buys Anna, then Booker mopes around in his disgusting office for some months before Lutece finds him.

So, what I'm saying is that there had to be time travel in one of 3 places:

A) Comstock went back in time to take Anna from a younger Booker. This would explain why Comstock appears much older than Booker, but little else, and his appearance could just be chalked up to cancer and the tear machines.

Booker is taken forward in time shortly after the deal to rescue his now-grown daughter from Comstock 20 years in the future. This seems to be the perfect explanation to me, except that it would mean the year on Columbia during the bulk of the game is actually 1932, not 1912.

C) Comstock has to go forward in time to to take Anna. In this scenario, Comstock is 18 in 1892 and Booker has Anna at 38 in 1912. This would explain how Anna/Elizabeth is 20 when we meet her on Columbia, AND how it seems relatively recent for Booker, but it doesn't explain why she seems much younger than 90-something in the 1980s segment.

None of those are even remotely supported by the story presented in the game. First, Comstock and Booker are the same age. The discrepancy in looks is explained in voxlogs. Second, Anna was taken before or in the very beginning of 1895 according to the voxlogs. Third, most of Booker's memories are invented, and the quote in the beginning is heavy foreshadowing of that. Finally, the game has "1912" all over the place as the current year, including the "1912 raffle" at the beginning.

I didn't get either of the two voxlogs you mention. Is there a transcript of all of them anywhere online yet?

But regardless...

I still think Booker's state when Lutece recruited him doesn't jive with someone who lost their daughter 2 decades prior.

It also doesn't explain 90+ year old Elizabeth in the 1980s looking like a spry 60-year old.

Booker specifically says "I know this place, I was here. 20 years ago, right after wounded knee." when he is taken to the baptism site.

Even assuming he's using "20 years" as an estimate, that plus pinkerton/baby-making time is an awfully small window for Liz to be born in before being taken if she's actually 20.

There are time-travel shenanigans afoot. Which would help explain Comstock's appearance as well.

Might also help explain how Comstock got AN ENTIRE FREAKIN' CITY organized in such a short amount of time. I can buy Columbia does not exist at all in Booker's dimension and Booker was dragged into Comstock's. I can't buy the whole city getting built and airborne with no trade from the United States in under 20 years.

Vegan

Wassermelone wrote: »

Anyone have some tips for a gameplay section? I think its pretty late game so I suppose only people that have completed it:

So defending Comstock's airship from the Vox is like a direct injection of frustration into my veins.

Any tips?

It isn't communicated well that you don't have to rely entirely on Songbird. You can actually reach the airships yourself and sabotage them.

I know that the game imparts this knowledge by having you do it once, earlier in the game, but there should have been some reminder dialogue. And even if you do remember, it doesn't look like you can actually reach them (you can).

minor incident

Wassermelone wrote: »

Anyone have some tips for a gameplay section? I think its pretty late game so I suppose only people that have completed it:

So defending Comstock's airship from the Vox is like a direct injection of frustration into my veins.

Any tips?

That's actually very late game. Here's how I finally did it...

First, the win condition is basically to destroy 3 of the big white zeppelins with Songbird. Never target the smaller red airships with Songbird, except at the very beginning of the fight. Basically, hold off the waves until the Zeppelins appear. You'll need to ride the skyline up to the very top walkway to target the zeppelins when Songbird is ready. You may need to use a Songbird call on the deck of the ship between zeppelins if enemies are starting to overrun you. I found the fight worked best with sniper rifles and RPGs. High damage weapons that can take out patriots quickly if need be. To buy time while songbird is recharging you can leave one of the weaker enemies alive. Regular machine gun toting Vox dudes won't do enough damage to the core to really matter, especially compared to two patriots. Also, when you see the volley gun users, use possession on them. Unlike the Patriots, it lasts until they die, and they actually do a ton of damage, so possession not only eliminates the damage they'd be doing to your core, but they can also put a good dent into the patriots for you. You can also try crowd controlling with possession and/or the water vigor. You really don't need to kill many enemies, you just have to keep buying time for Songbird to recharge so you can get those 3 zeppelin kills.

And if you'd like to know how late in the game that fight is...

It's actually the last fight of the entire game. Sit back and enjoy the best fucking 20 minute ending sequence ever.

minor incident

Vegan wrote: »

Wassermelone wrote: »

Anyone have some tips for a gameplay section? I think its pretty late game so I suppose only people that have completed it:

So defending Comstock's airship from the Vox is like a direct injection of frustration into my veins.

Any tips?

It isn't communicated well that you don't have to rely entirely on Songbird. You can actually reach the airships yourself and sabotage them.

I know that the game imparts this knowledge by having you do it once, earlier in the game, but there should have been some reminder dialogue. And even if you do remember, it doesn't look like you can actually reach them (you can).

Hah. I didn't even realize that. I tried...

reaching them and didn't immediately see a way to do so, so I assumed it wasn't possible.

Vegan

minor incident wrote: »

And if you'd like to know how late in the game that fight is...

It's actually the last fight of the entire game. Sit back and enjoy the best fucking 20 minute ending sequence ever.

I got so pissed off at trying that sequence about five times, my wife went to bed because I had started swearing at the TV, and so

she completely missed the ending.

minor incident

Vegan wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

And if you'd like to know how late in the game that fight is...

It's actually the last fight of the entire game. Sit back and enjoy the best fucking 20 minute ending sequence ever.

I got so pissed off at trying that sequence about five times, my wife went to bed because I had started swearing at the TV, and so

she completely missed the ending.

Oh, I totally (loudly) told Booker and Elizabeth to go fuck themselves after trying it 5 or 6 times. It's especially frustrating because it's the only fight in the game (that I know of) that you can actually lose and have to restart completely. Every other fight can be won by attrition if all else fails.

I gave it one more shot after deciding to mix up my vigors and honestly didn't expect

to be watching the ending of the game a minute later.

Priest

Great game. About 2-4 hours shorter than I expect out of a title, but I much prefer 12 hours of quality to 16 hours with 8 of it being filler. Great game.

Did I mention it was a great game? Gameplay speaking, items were a bit pointless (There were only really 2 good options for each slot among the 4-6 available), wish I could have had a third gun. Some Vigors were introduced too late to be useful, or otherwise downright useless (Charge, Bronco).

How did people feel about weapons? I thought the Vox weapons were pretty pointless, I stuck with my Comstock weapons the entire time. Carbine was definitely the way to go, not sure if I should have stuck with the Shotgun though. Anyone else have any favorites? I stayed away from Sniper-Rifle because it seemed to defeat the purpose of the game at times. RPG seemed a bit overpowered, so I abstained from it except when absolutely essential. Machine gun seemed decent once bullet spread was reduced. Didn't try the Hand Cannon, but it looked a bit promising. I used Fire/Shock pretty much exclusively, think I used Possession once, and Crow once.

Ending:

I thought it was a shame that they didn't do a bit more homage to the fact that Booker was Elizabeth's father. I mean, the time she spent with him, growing to understand his emotional trauma, then, as the siphon is removed and she becomes omniscient of all timelines, she would implicitly understand his pain, fear, and regret, and the decent man therein. I was hoping for a bit more of a realization moment that she had spent the last few days with her quote unquote true father, and perhaps a bit more tenderness as a result. Ultimately though, it seems like that omnipotence completely dehumanizes her, turning her more mechanical as the Lutece's are, which I feel is a shame. Still though, I thought that the eventuality of that storyline was a lot more fulfilling - for a while I thought they were going to go for a romance arc between the two of them. I wonder how much more heart-breaking the moments when you're trying to fight your way to her torture chamber would be if you had known at that point that she was your daughter.

Admittedly it's a bit fictitious to have a 20 year old daughter who has been imprisoned her whole life be so socially well adjusted, but fiction is fiction Greatly enjoyed the Lutece's.

Cease random thoughts.

JamesKeenan

Vegan wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

And if you'd like to know how late in the game that fight is...

It's actually the last fight of the entire game. Sit back and enjoy the best fucking 20 minute ending sequence ever.

I got so pissed off at trying that sequence about five times, my wife went to bed because I had started swearing at the TV, and so

she completely missed the ending.

I guess you're gonna have to replay it to show her.


I'm not sure I have lingering questions about the ending. It all sort of made sense to me.

Except the ending credits scene. I mean what the fuck...


The Elizabeths kill you before the baptism allows any branching that results in the 'birth' of Comstock, which has the side effect of wiping them from existence as well (With the real Booker DeWitt).

So why throw that after-credits scene in the gears to ruin a perfectly sad, fitting ending?

wakkawa

So yeah. Really liked this game so I started DOING FANART WOOO

So far from finished.

BYToady

JamesKeenan wrote: »

Vegan wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

And if you'd like to know how late in the game that fight is...

It's actually the last fight of the entire game. Sit back and enjoy the best fucking 20 minute ending sequence ever.

I got so pissed off at trying that sequence about five times, my wife went to bed because I had started swearing at the TV, and so

she completely missed the ending.

I guess you're gonna have to replay it to show her.


I'm not sure I have lingering questions about the ending. It all sort of made sense to me.

Except the ending credits scene. I mean what the fuck...


The Elizabeths kill you before the baptism allows any branching that results in the 'birth' of Comstock, which has the side effect of wiping them from existence as well (With the real Booker DeWitt).

So why throw that after-credits scene in the gears to ruin a perfectly sad, fitting ending?

Comstock will always have never existed, so he couldn't fund the Lutece device, or buy/kidnap Anna, thus she gets to live with her actual father. A father, who because of how the quantum realities work, remembers the events of the game. Also probably has a wicked nose bleed too.

BYToady

Wakkawa is a monster, because you put the cage on her choker.

PunkBoy

wakkawa wrote: »

So yeah. Really liked this game so I started DOING FANART WOOO

So far from finished.

That's awesome! Love how it blends in with the forum background, haha.

wakkawa

BYToady wrote: »

Wakkawa is a monster, because you put the cage on her choker.

We are all in a cage.

Vegan

wakkawa wrote: »

So yeah. Really liked this game so I started DOING FANART WOOO

So far from finished.

Is that drawn from scratch? That's really good, if so!

JamesKeenan

BYToady wrote: »

JamesKeenan wrote: »

Vegan wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

And if you'd like to know how late in the game that fight is...

It's actually the last fight of the entire game. Sit back and enjoy the best fucking 20 minute ending sequence ever.

I got so pissed off at trying that sequence about five times, my wife went to bed because I had started swearing at the TV, and so

she completely missed the ending.

I guess you're gonna have to replay it to show her.


I'm not sure I have lingering questions about the ending. It all sort of made sense to me.

Except the ending credits scene. I mean what the fuck...


The Elizabeths kill you before the baptism allows any branching that results in the 'birth' of Comstock, which has the side effect of wiping them from existence as well (With the real Booker DeWitt).

So why throw that after-credits scene in the gears to ruin a perfectly sad, fitting ending?

Comstock will always have never existed, so he couldn't fund the Lutece device, or buy/kidnap Anna, thus she gets to live with her actual father. A father, who because of how the quantum realities work, remembers the events of the game. Also probably has a wicked nose bleed too.

You are still playing Booker DeWitt at the end of the game, so it is not "post-baptism" as some people have suggested. There were theories that they only drowned the booker that accepted the baptism, allowing only the good Booker to continue. But they make it clear that you haven't decided yet, you're still "both". They drown both. Only be removing your choice to reject or accept the baptism can they 'remove' Comstock.

But that means killing Booker. And I see that as rather final. They kill Booker so Comstock can't be "created". But Comstock cannot now be created because Booker is dead. That truth means Comstock doesn't create Columbia, true. It also means Booker never fathers Anna.

So the after-credits scene is just David Lynch levels of "Fuck you if you think you got this figured out".

JamesKeenan

Also, where is it revealed that your booker is the 123rd Booker that the Lutece's attempt to get into Columbia. And what does it even mean that they have tried it that many times. They tried it in 122 different worlds? Do we assume those other times were times where Booker died in all those fights that I died in? Booker gets blown up by a Handyman, so they grab a new Booker and throw him into a new Columbia until he succeeds at preventing Columbia entirely? Hence Rosalind's reticence at the beginning about not believing in an experiment that already has failed?

BYToady

JamesKeenan wrote: »

BYToady wrote: »

JamesKeenan wrote: »

Vegan wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

And if you'd like to know how late in the game that fight is...

It's actually the last fight of the entire game. Sit back and enjoy the best fucking 20 minute ending sequence ever.

I got so pissed off at trying that sequence about five times, my wife went to bed because I had started swearing at the TV, and so

she completely missed the ending.

I guess you're gonna have to replay it to show her.


I'm not sure I have lingering questions about the ending. It all sort of made sense to me.

Except the ending credits scene. I mean what the fuck...


The Elizabeths kill you before the baptism allows any branching that results in the 'birth' of Comstock, which has the side effect of wiping them from existence as well (With the real Booker DeWitt).

So why throw that after-credits scene in the gears to ruin a perfectly sad, fitting ending?

Comstock will always have never existed, so he couldn't fund the Lutece device, or buy/kidnap Anna, thus she gets to live with her actual father. A father, who because of how the quantum realities work, remembers the events of the game. Also probably has a wicked nose bleed too.

You are still playing Booker DeWitt at the end of the game, so it is not "post-baptism" as some people have suggested. There were theories that they only drowned the booker that accepted the baptism, allowing only the good Booker to continue. But they make it clear that you haven't decided yet, you're still "both". They drown both. Only be removing your choice to reject or accept the baptism can they 'remove' Comstock.

But that means killing Booker. And I see that as rather final. They kill Booker so Comstock can't be "created". But Comstock cannot now be created because Booker is dead. That truth means Comstock doesn't create Columbia, true. It also means Booker never fathers Anna.

So the after-credits scene is just David Lynch levels of "Fuck you if you think you got this figured out".

Alternately the drowning was a metaphor as the 'knowledge without comprehsion' dissolved that Booker's mind, as Elizabeth created a new constant wherein the Preacher that was prone to half-drowning people during his baptism (same priest as in the begining of the game) goes a bit to far and drowns him. So once past-Booker gets to that point in the timeline, and he chooses baptism he drowns, if he refuses and decides to try to live with his past he goes on to father Anna at some point later. Post-credits Booker could just as easily be another Booker that just had drown-Booker's memories dumped into him because of quantum shennanigans (see all the times you use possession or jump realities).

Or maybe the entire game was Booker's alcohol fueled guilt dreams trying to prompt him into being a better father instead of a drunken wife-beating piece of crap.

Commander Zoom

Vegan wrote: »

wakkawa wrote: »

So yeah. Really liked this game so I started DOING FANART WOOO

So far from finished.

Is that drawn from scratch? That's really good, if so!

My reaction was more "... that's not official art? WOW."

Fencingsax

BYToady wrote: »

Wakkawa is a monster, because you put the cage on her choker.

The empty cage has a special meaning.

Also, that is an excellent piece of art.

Fencingsax

JamesKeenan wrote: »

Also, where is it revealed that your booker is the 123rd Booker that the Lutece's attempt to get into Columbia. And what does it even mean that they have tried it that many times. They tried it in 122 different worlds? Do we assume those other times were times where Booker died in all those fights that I died in? Booker gets blown up by a Handyman, so they grab a new Booker and throw him into a new Columbia until he succeeds at preventing Columbia entirely? Hence Rosalind's reticence at the beginning about not believing in an experiment that already has failed?

That's how many heads are marked on the board during the coin flip.

JamesKeenan

BYToady wrote: »

JamesKeenan wrote: »

BYToady wrote: »

JamesKeenan wrote: »

Vegan wrote: »

minor incident wrote: »

And if you'd like to know how late in the game that fight is...

It's actually the last fight of the entire game. Sit back and enjoy the best fucking 20 minute ending sequence ever.

I got so pissed off at trying that sequence about five times, my wife went to bed because I had started swearing at the TV, and so

she completely missed the ending.

I guess you're gonna have to replay it to show her.


I'm not sure I have lingering questions about the ending. It all sort of made sense to me.

Except the ending credits scene. I mean what the fuck...


The Elizabeths kill you before the baptism allows any branching that results in the 'birth' of Comstock, which has the side effect of wiping them from existence as well (With the real Booker DeWitt).

So why throw that after-credits scene in the gears to ruin a perfectly sad, fitting ending?

Comstock will always have never existed, so he couldn't fund the Lutece device, or buy/kidnap Anna, thus she gets to live with her actual father. A father, who because of how the quantum realities work, remembers the events of the game. Also probably has a wicked nose bleed too.

You are still playing Booker DeWitt at the end of the game, so it is not "post-baptism" as some people have suggested. There were theories that they only drowned the booker that accepted the baptism, allowing only the good Booker to continue. But they make it clear that you haven't decided yet, you're still "both". They drown both. Only be removing your choice to reject or accept the baptism can they 'remove' Comstock.

But that means killing Booker. And I see that as rather final. They kill Booker so Comstock can't be "created". But Comstock cannot now be created because Booker is dead. That truth means Comstock doesn't create Columbia, true. It also means Booker never fathers Anna.

So the after-credits scene is just David Lynch levels of "Fuck you if you think you got this figured out".

Alternately the drowning was a metaphor as the 'knowledge without comprehsion' dissolved that Booker's mind, as Elizabeth created a new constant wherein the Preacher that was prone to half-drowning people during his baptism (same priest as in the begining of the game) goes a bit to far and drowns him. So once past-Booker gets to that point in the timeline, and he chooses baptism he drowns, if he refuses and decides to try to live with his past he goes on to father Anna at some point later. Post-credits Booker could just as easily be another Booker that just had drown-Booker's memories dumped into him because of quantum shennanigans (see all the times you use possession or jump realities).

Or maybe the entire game was Booker's alcohol fueled guilt dreams trying to prompt him into being a better father instead of a drunken wife-beating piece of crap.

I could TOTALLY get behind the "they drowned the Booker that made that choice", except I don't know if there are in-game facts to support the theory other than wishful thinking.

And also that would they be able to do that? The choice to accept or not creates an infinite number of Bookers that accept. I thought the whole point was that they needed to kill him before that choice is ever made.

And I assumed the point of killing him there was

1. A huge twist of that the baptism WAS Comstock's crib, where Booker wanted to strangle Comstock.

and

2. It's the last moment before the split, allowing Booker to live his life before killing him. (Though preventing his involvement at Wounded Knee might have been a tad more benevolent, more like the actions of a daughter for a father.

Unless we assume the guilt of Wounded Knee (but not the baptism, are the necessary circumstances that lead to the birth of Anna)

Unknown

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BYToady

JamesKeenan wrote: »

Also, where is it revealed that your booker is the 123rd Booker that the Lutece's attempt to get into Columbia. And what does it even mean that they have tried it that many times. They tried it in 122 different worlds? Do we assume those other times were times where Booker died in all those fights that I died in? Booker gets blown up by a Handyman, so they grab a new Booker and throw him into a new Columbia until he succeeds at preventing Columbia entirely? Hence Rosalind's reticence at the beginning about not believing in an experiment that already has failed?

As you're entering the fair at the start of the game, they show up and ask you to pick heads or tails. The implication is that they have always asked Booker this question, and he always picks the same. Counting the tick marks on the poster board comes up to 122, with the one that add after asking you heads or tails being the 123rd.

edit: whoops, hope no one saw that.

Thibis

Man, I don't get all this talk about Charge not being great. It pretty much trivialized combat for me on hard in the later parts of the game. It could all be in the gear though. Either way, I played it full-on Vanguard style and it worked amazingly well. All upgrades in shields and salt, with leftovers in health (was at 1 for most of the game).

Power and gear stuff:

I wore the following:

Burning Halo: for 70% chance of burning on melee
Overkill: to shock everything in the area if I killed something with enough damage (triggers all the freaking time)
Brittle Skinned: Makes melee targets take double damage for 5 seconds after being hit.
Blood to Salt to give me salts back 40% of the time after murdering something. At first I thought this meant salt drops, but it applies directly to the salt bar!

And Charge applies all of those effects.

With Charge itself and the shotgun fully upgraded, everything was always burning, electrocuted, taking double damage, or all three at once. Handymen and patriots? Charge-BOOM-charge-BOOM-repeat. I rarely ran out of salts for very long, to boot. Encounters with groups of regular mooks were over in seconds.

Even (plot encounter spoilers)

Ghost mom

was a joke.

Hoping I come across the same gear in this 1999 run. Just wish I could be charging right from the start.

CaptainNemo

I came to Columbia seeking fortune
But they're making me work till I'm dead
The Founders have it so easy...
Comstock's putting gold on his bread!

The people of Finkton are hungry
But think what a feast there could be
If we could create
A socialist state
That cares for the people like me!

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JamesKeenan

Spoiler about powers and gear, not plotlines.

Undertow pretty much trivialized endgame for me. Just push everything off the world. Plus the gear that gives salts 40% of the time. I could be at half salts and blow off a zeppelin full of guards and bam, I'm at full.

And after Winterguard (invulnerability for jumping to or from a sky-line. Holy shit. Talk about game breaking. There just wasn't a fight I couldn't win after that.

Priest

I suppose the shitter is this:

The incarnation of Elizabeth that you know is for all purposes, dead to you. She will never exist in your universe. She exists independent of the timeline in a manner that has no reason to interact with yours. The Anna that you raise will be fundamentally different due to her raising outside of the tower, outside of Columbia. For all that made Elizabeth endearing as a fitting daughter to Booker, she is, dead.

Moreover, the Booker that refused the baptism and went on to rescue Elizabeth no longer exists, so there no longer (to our knowledge) exists a version of Booker that came to terms with his demons and was redeemed via his daughter.

The only Booker that is left is the post-Pinkerton, Gambling, Drunkard, with a dead wife and [possibly] a daughter Anna. So while good has been done, good has not resulted.

I needed anime to post.

i beat this

i can finally click on things on the internet again

Lucid_Seraph

CaptainNemo wrote: »

I came to Columbia seeking fortune
But they're making me work till I'm dead
The Founders have it so easy...
Comstock's putting gold on his bread!

The people of Finkton are hungry
But think what a feast there could be
If we could create
A socialist state
That cares for the people like me!

I am the man who joins up with the Vox
Who descend from the airships up above...

Vicious_GSR

Priest wrote: »

I suppose the shitter is this:

The incarnation of Elizabeth that you know is for all purposes, dead to you. She will never exist in your universe. She exists independent of the timeline in a manner that has no reason to interact with yours. The Anna that you raise will be fundamentally different due to her raising outside of the tower, outside of Columbia. For all that made Elizabeth endearing as a fitting daughter to Booker, she is, dead.

Moreover, the Booker that refused the baptism and went on to rescue Elizabeth no longer exists, so there no longer (to our knowledge) exists a version of Booker that came to terms with his demons and was redeemed via his daughter.

The only Booker that is left is the post-Pinkerton, Gambling, Drunkard, with a dead wife and [possibly] a daughter Anna. So while good has been done, good has not resulted.

This is why I felt the whole story was kind of pointless. I enjoyed the game but I probably won't be playing it again.

BYToady

Vicious_GSR wrote: »

Priest wrote: »

I suppose the shitter is this:

The incarnation of Elizabeth that you know is for all purposes, dead to you. She will never exist in your universe. She exists independent of the timeline in a manner that has no reason to interact with yours. The Anna that you raise will be fundamentally different due to her raising outside of the tower, outside of Columbia. For all that made Elizabeth endearing as a fitting daughter to Booker, she is, dead.

Moreover, the Booker that refused the baptism and went on to rescue Elizabeth no longer exists, so there no longer (to our knowledge) exists a version of Booker that came to terms with his demons and was redeemed via his daughter.

The only Booker that is left is the post-Pinkerton, Gambling, Drunkard, with a dead wife and [possibly] a daughter Anna. So while good has been done, good has not resulted.

This is why I felt the whole story was kind of pointless. I enjoyed the game but I probably won't be playing it again.

Every time Elizabeth and Booker entered a new universe, everyone around remembered both their own lives and the lives of the people Booker and Elizabeth interacted with before hand, such as the guards around Chen Li "They remember being dead". Seeing as every instance of not-dead Bookers has interacted with an Elizabeth they would all remember the alternate reality in which they sold their daughter. Also dying a few hundred times.

emnmnme

So far, so good on 1999 mode. I've rescued Elizabeth and have only died once.