Well usually I know better than to let myself get dragged into an e-argument, but I can't resist.
I am a firm believer that you vote with your money. If these games didn't make money, or didn't make money specifically because someone was supersexualized, then I'd be in your court. But to have someone say that what I like is wrong, and I'm wrong for liking it irks me to the extreme. Do I deny that sexism exists? Not at all. I've played WoW and witnessed it firsthand for years. But when some lady (sarkeesian, in this case) tells me that my love for DD sized mammaries is wrong, cuz she and however many other ladies only have c-cups, that's garbage. Furthermore, not only is she telling me that it's wrong, but she's also telling me how I should spend my leisure time. Also wrong. If she wants to make/play games that are just a pale imitation of real life, more power to her. I don't have any such desire. If her argument holds enough water, that should be more than enough for every woman ever to play a video game to boycott any game that doesn't meet whatever standards she feels it should. Assuming that women make up enough market share to make devs sit up and take notice, I have absolutely no problem with whatever needs to be done to appease these ladies. But attempting to sway me to her side via shaming is what really cooks my goose.
And yes, I understand that my ambivalence could be taken as tacit agreement with the status-quo.
I was going to go ahead and refute that, but I've run out of the emotional steam required to put anymore skin into this game.
#1reasonwhy has completely changed the way I view the world. Please, video game industry, I desperately want to play a game where everyone is superlatively average. If my male avatars aren't pale, acne-ridden, and out of shape, and my women aren't all pear-shaped, freckly, and bespectacled, then they clearly aren't an accurate reflection of reality. The fact that video games are a form of escapism, and don't accurately reflect the real world sickens me. 5 months ago I thought that I liked big boobs, but now I realize how wrong that is. I've been living a hollow life full of sin, that casts a pall on all my interactions with men and women both. I'm only glad I found out about #1reasonwhy before it was too late.
BrocksMulletInto the sunrise, on a jet-ski. Natch.Registered Userregular
I feel like a good route to take, with gooses as seen above, would be to say, "I'd just like to see more variety in the appearence of game characters. It'd make games less alienating for a lot of people, and it'd be more interesting to boot."
Well usually I know better than to let myself get dragged into an e-argument, but I can't resist.
I am a firm believer that you vote with your money. If these games didn't make money, or didn't make money specifically because someone was supersexualized, then I'd be in your court. But to have someone say that what I like is wrong, and I'm wrong for liking it irks me to the extreme. Do I deny that sexism exists? Not at all. I've played WoW and witnessed it firsthand for years. But when some lady (sarkeesian, in this case) tells me that my love for DD sized mammaries is wrong, cuz she and however many other ladies only have c-cups, that's garbage. Furthermore, not only is she telling me that it's wrong, but she's also telling me how I should spend my leisure time. Also wrong. If she wants to make/play games that are just a pale imitation of real life, more power to her. I don't have any such desire. If her argument holds enough water, that should be more than enough for every woman ever to play a video game to boycott any game that doesn't meet whatever standards she feels it should. Assuming that women make up enough market share to make devs sit up and take notice, I have absolutely no problem with whatever needs to be done to appease these ladies. But attempting to sway me to her side via shaming is what really cooks my goose.
And yes, I understand that my ambivalence could be taken as tacit agreement with the status-quo.
I was going to go ahead and refute that, but I've run out of the emotional steam required to put anymore skin into this game.
Nobody has said you're wrong for liking big titties. No one, not in this whole thread or its predecessor, not once.
It's just that hypersexualized titty delivery platforms should not be the norm, and they too often are, both as artistic and social crutch.
Well usually I know better than to let myself get dragged into an e-argument, but I can't resist.
I am a firm believer that you vote with your money. If these games didn't make money, or didn't make money specifically because someone was supersexualized, then I'd be in your court. But to have someone say that what I like is wrong, and I'm wrong for liking it irks me to the extreme. Do I deny that sexism exists? Not at all. I've played WoW and witnessed it firsthand for years. But when some lady (sarkeesian, in this case) tells me that my love for DD sized mammaries is wrong, cuz she and however many other ladies only have c-cups, that's garbage. Furthermore, not only is she telling me that it's wrong, but she's also telling me how I should spend my leisure time. Also wrong. If she wants to make/play games that are just a pale imitation of real life, more power to her. I don't have any such desire. If her argument holds enough water, that should be more than enough for every woman ever to play a video game to boycott any game that doesn't meet whatever standards she feels it should. Assuming that women make up enough market share to make devs sit up and take notice, I have absolutely no problem with whatever needs to be done to appease these ladies. But attempting to sway me to her side via shaming is what really cooks my goose.
And yes, I understand that my ambivalence could be taken as tacit agreement with the status-quo. I was going to go ahead and refute that, but I've run out of the emotional steam required to put anymore skin into this game.
Your very first post was a half assed snark post, if you re going to make a follow up the bare minimum level of respect you could have would be to put in the effort to finish your own thoughts.
Well usually I know better than to let myself get dragged into an e-argument, but I can't resist.
I am a firm believer that you vote with your money. If these games didn't make money, or didn't make money specifically because someone was supersexualized, then I'd be in your court. But to have someone say that what I like is wrong, and I'm wrong for liking it irks me to the extreme. Do I deny that sexism exists? Not at all. I've played WoW and witnessed it firsthand for years. But when some lady (sarkeesian, in this case) tells me that my love for DD sized mammaries is wrong, cuz she and however many other ladies only have c-cups, that's garbage.
IF she said that then yes it is absolutely wrong. No one in this thread or the other that I have seen has ever said that.
Furthermore, not only is she telling me that it's wrong, but she's also telling me how I should spend my leisure time. Also wrong. If she wants to make/play games that are just a pale imitation of real life, more power to her. I don't have any such desire. If her argument holds enough water, that should be more than enough for every woman ever to play a video game to boycott any game that doesn't meet whatever standards she feels it should. Assuming that women make up enough market share to make devs sit up and take notice, I have absolutely no problem with whatever needs to be done to appease these ladies. But attempting to sway me to her side via shaming is what really cooks my goose.
And yes, I understand that my ambivalence could be taken as tacit agreement with the status-quo.
I was going to go ahead and refute that, but I've run out of the emotional steam required to put anymore skin into this game.
But you're basically arguing "as long as it still makes money, it's ok". That's not really a good pillar to base an argument on. Also, it's not only woman that will boycott these games or feel this way about the issue. You need to get that out of your head right now.
One last thing: It's not "could be taken". It absolutely is a tacit agreement. Non eof us are innocent of buying something that gives money to this kind of mind set. As long as you're aware of it and maybe deciding to not make one or two purchases because of it and voicing your concerns then we're miles ahead of where we were.
Regardless of whatever comic artist the comic was initially made to reply to, the dumpy nerdman there represents actual arguments from a lot of people, including contemporary arguments about how the Dwarf and the Sorceress are equivalents (they aren't). Its point about male sexual fantasies and male power fantasies dominating character design is perfectly valid.
Stop generalizing everything to help your argument -_-
Except it wasn't. That comic is about the arguments that stemmed from the incident, not the comic that inspired the incident. It's specifically addressing the fact men frequently say that sexism isn't a problem because men are just as objectified which is a ridiculous lie.
Well usually I know better than to let myself get dragged into an e-argument, but I can't resist.
I am a firm believer that you vote with your money. If these games didn't make money, or didn't make money specifically because someone was supersexualized, then I'd be in your court. But to have someone say that what I like is wrong, and I'm wrong for liking it irks me to the extreme. Do I deny that sexism exists? Not at all. I've played WoW and witnessed it firsthand for years. But when some lady (sarkeesian, in this case) tells me that my love for DD sized mammaries is wrong, cuz she and however many other ladies only have c-cups, that's garbage. Furthermore, not only is she telling me that it's wrong, but she's also telling me how I should spend my leisure time. Also wrong. If she wants to make/play games that are just a pale imitation of real life, more power to her. I don't have any such desire. If her argument holds enough water, that should be more than enough for every woman ever to play a video game to boycott any game that doesn't meet whatever standards she feels it should. Assuming that women make up enough market share to make devs sit up and take notice, I have absolutely no problem with whatever needs to be done to appease these ladies. But attempting to sway me to her side via shaming is what really cooks my goose.
And yes, I understand that my ambivalence could be taken as tacit agreement with the status-quo.
I was going to go ahead and refute that, but I've run out of the emotional steam required to put anymore skin into this game.
When has anyone told you that you're wrong for liking large breasts? When has Anita Sarkeesian ever referenced her bra size?
I can't tell if this is willfully ignorant or if you're just willfully mischaracterizing other peoples' arguments.
Stop generalizing everything to help your argument -_-
Except it wasn't. That comic is about the arguments that stemmed from the incident, not the comic that inspired the incident. It's specifically addressing the fact men frequently say that sexism isn't a problem because men are just as objectified which is a ridiculous lie.
Stop this white-knighting. Not every girl wants effaminate men. Nathan Drake and Co. are no "male power fantasy" (god what a stupid sentence), there are just the male equivalent of the perfect protagonist.
#1reasonwhy has completely changed the way I view the world. Please, video game industry, I desperately want to play a game where everyone is superlatively average. If my male avatars aren't pale, acne-ridden, and out of shape, and my women aren't all pear-shaped, freckly, and bespectacled, then they clearly aren't an accurate reflection of reality. The fact that video games are a form of escapism, and don't accurately reflect the real world sickens me. 5 months ago I thought that I liked big boobs, but now I realize how wrong that is. I've been living a hollow life full of sin, that casts a pall on all my interactions with men and women both. I'm only glad I found out about #1reasonwhy before it was too late.
Feel free to not post if following this thread is too hard.
Stop generalizing everything to help your argument -_-
Except it wasn't. That comic is about the arguments that stemmed from the incident, not the comic that inspired the incident. It's specifically addressing the fact men frequently say that sexism isn't a problem because men are just as objectified which is a ridiculous lie.
Stop this white-knighting. Not every girl wants effaminate men. Nathan Drake and Co. are no "male power fantasy" (god what a stupid sentence), there are just the male equivalent of the perfect protagonist.
Show me where I said ANYTHING you just accused me of. You literally just LEAPT over our whole discussion directly into another one to defend yourself from something no one in this thread has said..
Regardless of whatever comic artist the comic was initially made to reply to, the dumpy nerdman there represents actual arguments from a lot of people, including contemporary arguments about how the Dwarf and the Sorceress are equivalents (they aren't). Its point about male sexual fantasies and male power fantasies dominating character design is perfectly valid.
Not "fantasies"; "fantasy" singular. Even if someone is rejecting the (more important) sexism argument they should at least be able to see that even many men aren't being catered to.
It won't be my power fantasy until we get a game about a guy who gets bullied by others gaining powers that allow him to get comeuppance against them. It won't be my sexy lady fantasy until we get a game where your romantic interest can be a mousy, adorkable pear-shaped nerd girl.
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Stop generalizing everything to help your argument -_-
Except it wasn't. That comic is about the arguments that stemmed from the incident, not the comic that inspired the incident. It's specifically addressing the fact men frequently say that sexism isn't a problem because men are just as objectified which is a ridiculous lie.
Stop this white-knighting. Not every girl wants effaminate men. Nathan Drake and Co. are no "male power fantasy" (god what a stupid sentence), there are just the male equivalent of the perfect protagonist.
I want you to read the bolded part and think about it for a minute.
Would you agree that there is an equivalence in those ideas?
Regardless of whatever comic artist the comic was initially made to reply to, the dumpy nerdman there represents actual arguments from a lot of people, including contemporary arguments about how the Dwarf and the Sorceress are equivalents (they aren't). Its point about male sexual fantasies and male power fantasies dominating character design is perfectly valid.
Not "fantasies"; "fantasy" singular. Even if someone is rejecting the (more important) sexism argument they should at least be able to see that even many men aren't being catered to.
It won't be my power fantasy until we get a game about a guy who gets bullied by others gaining powers that allow him to get comeuppance against them. It won't be my sexy lady fantasy until we get a game where your romantic interest can be a mousy, adorkable pear-shaped nerd girl.
There are a lot of different male power and male sexual fantasies being played out, but I'm not claiming that everyone is being catered. A lot of design right now appeals to what the industry assumes to be the lowest common denominator.
Your posts are further made incorrect by the fact that you actually are subtly and deeply sexist. You want to deny your own daughter's sexual agency with her husband. You frame all your arguments from a male perspective. You pulled out the classic "If feminists want me to take them seriously, they need to talk to me nicely and with respect" white male privilege argument.
Dude, step off a bit. It's been a nice, civil conversation, and that shit is heinous, incorrect, and uncalled for.
Let me expand out the quote that I was referring to:
I have 6 year old daughter. That gives some perspective, I hope, because no dad wants to raise a Playmate (I don't want my kid to be seen naked by anybody...probably not even the guy/gal that she'll marry someday).
I saw the bolded parts and assumed that he was referring to his kid, who is a girl, and his assertion that it's bad for girls to engage in consensual sex. "my kid" is androgynous, but his statement was worded to make "my kid" effectively a pronoun for his "6 year old daughter". He also further reinforced my impression that he was talking about women by using the word "Playmate" which I don't think applies to men. I'm certainly not going to try to confirm that from work. So that is my thinking in terms of how I arrived at the conclusion that he is, in fact, asserting that it is bad for women to be sexual - which is a highly misogynistic view.
I apologize if I came off as overly confrontational, but I believe my assertions still stand on their own merit.
1) As of the writing of my original post, all of his arguments as to why sexism isn't a problem are made from a male perspective.
2) He used the "Femenists need to learn to talk to me." argument.
3) He stated his belief that he doesn't want his daughter ("daughter" specifically based on my analysis above) to engage in anything sexual even with a loving, consenting partner.
I'll watch my phrasing in the future, but I'd still be curious to see the above issues addressed.
Interestingly enough, Sisyphus has just made the same mistake that REG Rysk did in point 1:
But when some lady (sarkeesian, in this case) tells me that my love for DD sized mammaries is wrong, cuz she and however many other ladies only have c-cups, that's garbage.
Ain't no one hating on your love of boobs. What people are arguing against isn't to tell men what they should like, but what makes women uncomfortable. What men like or don't like is largely irrelevant to the conversation. We are trying to address what makes women uncomfortable.
Ask yourself what it says about your perspective on life when a woman says "All these huge breasts make me uncomfortable and less inclined to play games," and you're immediate reaction is "Don't tell me what I should like!"
I have often advocated that reasonable armor/clothing should ship with the main game, and that the sexualized outfits be made available as day 1 DLC. Guys who like boobs can still ogle, girls aren't immediately disgusted by the character design, and game companies can rack up more bucks selling their DLC. Everyone wins.
But to have someone say that what I like is wrong, and I'm wrong for liking it irks me to the extreme.
Do you want to know how I know you haven't read anything anyone's been saying?
Yes, you're very indignant about this mean strawman feminist shaming you for being attracted to women. Now, in this series of threads in which people have repeatedly said that's not what they're talking about and that sexuality is grand, what's your argument?
Stop generalizing everything to help your argument -_-
Except it wasn't. That comic is about the arguments that stemmed from the incident, not the comic that inspired the incident. It's specifically addressing the fact men frequently say that sexism isn't a problem because men are just as objectified which is a ridiculous lie.
Stop this [redacted]. Not every girl wants effaminate men. Nathan Drake and Co. are no "male power fantasy" (god what a stupid sentence), there are just the male equivalent of the perfect protagonist.
I want you to read the bolded part and think about it for a minute.
Would you agree that there is an equivalence in those ideas?
I can't begin to imagine what @Alpha268 believes "male power fantasy" means. Maybe he'll enlighten us?
Edit: Dang! Burned for quoting. Oh well, learned my lesson there.
How could we have become so different, @Grouch? Why can we no longer understand each other? What did we do wrong? Infracted @Grouch (2 points for 30 days) for "Disallowed phrase: Prohibited phrase "white-knighting""
I have often advocated that reasonable armor/clothing should ship with the main game, and that the sexualized outfits be made available as day 1 DLC. Guys who like boobs can still ogle, girls aren't immediately disgusted by the character design, and game companies can rack up more bucks selling their DLC. Everyone wins.
This is literally all I want. The option for my character to be or not be sexy as I choose.
Stop generalizing everything to help your argument -_-
Except it wasn't. That comic is about the arguments that stemmed from the incident, not the comic that inspired the incident. It's specifically addressing the fact men frequently say that sexism isn't a problem because men are just as objectified which is a ridiculous lie.
Stop this [prohibited phrase]. Not every girl wants effaminate men. Nathan Drake and Co. are no "male power fantasy" (god what a stupid sentence), there are just the male equivalent of the perfect protagonist.
I fully support the de-sexualization of *both* genders in our popular media, as I have found the T&A approach to be quite disgusting. However the press needs to stop yanking psychological studies and presenting their findings as the One True Finding. Without understanding the basis behind implicit association tests and cognitive neuroscience, it is impossible to have any reasonable discussion about the findings.
Plus, any finding is meaningless without a good comparison. Why only examine whether men's cognitive processes of women change based on sexualization? Why not also examine women's cognitive processes as a good comparison? Is it really a problem of men's attitudes towards sexualized women, or is it more a question of how the human brain processes sexualized images?
If you actually read the study, you'll see that both men and women's brains were studied, and both men and women process sexualized women as more animal. (to a far lesser extent, the study shows this can happen with male sexualized images as well).
RTFM.
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
I know it's uncouth to accuse others of trolling, but this attitude combined with this handle and this thread could not be better combined.
Anyway, long story short, nobody is saying "you can't like big breasts, no big breasts for anyone ever!".
They are saying "Y'know what? Maybe 'rude titties' shouldn't be the default for the vast majority of female characters in the vast majority of games. A little variety might be nice, a little less appeal to the preferences stereotypically associated with young white heterosexual males".
And as a (somewhat) young, white, heterosexual male I can look across countless movies, shows, games, book, magazines and other media and say "Yup, like 95% of this shit is aimed right at me, you can safely knock that down a percent or thirty and I'll still be up to my eyes in stuff that wants to appeal to my baser instincts". Well, aside from having interests and proclivities that aren't true to stereotype. But enough about how I spend my weekends.
There is a distinction. Not "NONE EVER WRONG BAD", but when an example like Dragon's Crown or whatever it's called comes up, it's hard to avoid eyestrain with all the rolling involved. It's cliche, it's done to death, and there are markets out there being largely untapped (oh gods what a poor choice of words) because the industry largely can't be bothered even trying to appeal to anyone else.
There are outliers like Valve and Bioware who may not get it perfect, but they try harder than most and it shows (in my opinion at least), but change won't just come from supporting those who produce things we like. In this day and age of social media, we can also make our voices heard expressing displeasure over things that are sexualized in a manner we find unpalatable. If you dig that stuff, hey, rock on. As an example of the like that has been brought up in the last thread; I bought and enjoyed Dead Island 1 enough that I probably would've bought DI2. Unfortunately they seem to think that I'm strictly run by my penis (well, not strictly...), and I resent that whole thing on a multitude of levels.
So, here we are. I am voting with my wallet; no pre-order from me, no matter how sweet the deal might be on Steam. And I'll tweet and facebook and forum post about the matter until told otherwise (please don't hurt me, Geth).
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Regardless of whatever comic artist the comic was initially made to reply to, the dumpy nerdman there represents actual arguments from a lot of people, including contemporary arguments about how the Dwarf and the Sorceress are equivalents (they aren't). Its point about male sexual fantasies and male power fantasies dominating character design is perfectly valid.
You know, I went with this for awhile, but I don't think I can really anymore. I've never known anyone that wanted to be Dwarf, even kind of.
The artist posted a lengthy reply about why he made the characters like this. It's in at least two threads on these forums, but I don't think this is one of them; I think in the actual DC thread and in the PA Comic thread in the Hub. Anyway, the artist said he was specifically exaggerating male and female characteristics. That, for example, is why Dwarf has a Megabeard -- not because it's attractive, but because it's male. Dwarf and Amazon both have exaggerated muscles, but Dwarf's are even bigger because male exaggeration.
This gets complicated because of where our society is right now, though. Exaggerating the female winds up being a reduction to a lot of people. Exaggerating the male creates an image of power or strength instead. Is this because we already have ingrained into us that what is physically male is strong and powerful and what is physically female is weak and only for appeal to men? Is it because exaggerating the physical differences create discomfort because the physical differences already create discomfort in terms of giving men physical power over women? Is it because we see that which is distinctly female as being sexually appealing, but we don't see the same in that which is distinctly male?
A note: I acknowledge that the poses throw a wrench into some of this, but I'm interested in discussing the aspects of this unrelated to the suggestive poses in the promo pieces.
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
0
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
There is nothing wrong with big breasts.
There is something wrong with big breasts being the only figure style allowed to female characters.
There is nothing wrong with sexy.
This is something wrong with one gender only being allowed to be presented in a sexualized manner.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying a nice perky ass
There is something wrong with making a woman uncomfortable with the way you stare and "compliment" her nice perky ass
There is nothing wrong with being attractive
There is something wrong with making women in the industry feel that they only have a place if they are also attractive, and then if they actually are physically beautiful making them feel that they only got where they are for that reason.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with women.
There is something wrong with making women feel that no matter what else they do, they'd better also make you want to have sex with them or they have failed to actually be a woman in some vital way.
Peace to fashion police, I wear my heart
On my sleeve, let the runway start
Is there a shortage of porn that I am unaware of? Because I don't think the solution here is "force artists to make sexy versions of everyone."
Design characters. I have plenty of other sources for sexy people.
People like looking at people they find attractive. People like looking at anything they find aesthetically appealing. Artists like creating things they find aesthetically appealing.
I personally don't enjoy drawing things I find ugly, although I also think my idea of what is aesthetically appealing is more diverse than most. For example, one of my male Saints Row 2 characters had both the muscle and fat sliders at 50%, which resulted in a chunky yet somewhat defined physique and stable-looking, boxy overall form that looked powerful to me. One of my biggest problems with Saints Row the Third is that I couldn't replicate that form.
I have often advocated that reasonable armor/clothing should ship with the main game, and that the sexualized outfits be made available as day 1 DLC. Guys who like boobs can still ogle, girls aren't immediately disgusted by the character design, and game companies can rack up more bucks selling their DLC. Everyone wins.
This is literally all I want. The option for my character to be or not be sexy as I choose.
Actually this is a pretty big thing for me as a guy who likes looking at both genders.
90% of the time I don't want that shit in my game when it comes to outfits. I don't mind the characters looking attractive but putting them in silly outfits just detracts for the most part.
Offering the option to buy it is good because it gives the choice and sometimes you get fairly creative stuff out of it (Battle Bunny Riven for example).
Riot is getting better at this, slightly, though I'm sure now someone will have a post filled with image links to all the female champions.
@The Big Levinsky I'm not sure how wanting to never see or think about my child as an adult in the nude is sexist. I wouldn't want that of a hypothetical son either. That just seems normal to me, and an opinion.
And no, I never told you how to argue towards me. I was sharing my personal thought process on how these images don't affect me. I can't speak to other people's thought process or functionality. If you've become an expert on my mental state and interactions I would appreciate a much deeper and more personal conversations on my inner-workings, because as most humans do I struggle with them from time to time.
Your definition of sexism appears to be quite broad. We differ on that.
Are people implying that it is impossible to both objectify women and to respect them? That the two are mutually exclusive?
Yes. It's impossible to do both at the same time.
Objectify: to treat as an object
I don't respect too many objects.
This is not to say that someone can't objectify one woman while respecting another. But it's impossible to respect someone you treat as an object.
When I started at my current job I had a supervisor who is, in fact, a younger woman. For her age, she was highly ranked. She was also a well proportioned woman. The misogyny was there doubting her abilities from other people. When I met her I did my standard assessment, thought to myself "hey, she's kind of a sexy lady" and then continued my work with her with an ability to fully respect the fact that she was super smart, and a fantastic leader.
You see, I can look and say "sexy lady" which is objectification, and then continue to interact with her and see her as a capable woman who deserves my respect.
Don't apply the strict definition of objectification, because I don't think anybody looks at a person they find attractive and see them as an inanimate fuck-doll. Unless that's what everybody else does and apparently I don't objectify women.
^^^ this so much this
people come across as pigs if they are already that way.
0
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Posts
I am a firm believer that you vote with your money. If these games didn't make money, or didn't make money specifically because someone was supersexualized, then I'd be in your court. But to have someone say that what I like is wrong, and I'm wrong for liking it irks me to the extreme. Do I deny that sexism exists? Not at all. I've played WoW and witnessed it firsthand for years. But when some lady (sarkeesian, in this case) tells me that my love for DD sized mammaries is wrong, cuz she and however many other ladies only have c-cups, that's garbage. Furthermore, not only is she telling me that it's wrong, but she's also telling me how I should spend my leisure time. Also wrong. If she wants to make/play games that are just a pale imitation of real life, more power to her. I don't have any such desire. If her argument holds enough water, that should be more than enough for every woman ever to play a video game to boycott any game that doesn't meet whatever standards she feels it should. Assuming that women make up enough market share to make devs sit up and take notice, I have absolutely no problem with whatever needs to be done to appease these ladies. But attempting to sway me to her side via shaming is what really cooks my goose.
And yes, I understand that my ambivalence could be taken as tacit agreement with the status-quo.
I was going to go ahead and refute that, but I've run out of the emotional steam required to put anymore skin into this game.
Isn't there a cornfield you could be?
Steam: BrocksMullet http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197972421669/
Steam: BrocksMullet http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197972421669/
Nobody has said you're wrong for liking big titties. No one, not in this whole thread or its predecessor, not once.
It's just that hypersexualized titty delivery platforms should not be the norm, and they too often are, both as artistic and social crutch.
Yeah quick and easy reference THAT GOT TOTALLY SHOT DOWN IN THE LAST PENNY-ARCADE COMIC THREAD. http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/177943/pa-comicnsfw-wednesday-april-24-2013-character-selection
Stop generalizing everything to help your argument -_-
Your very first post was a half assed snark post, if you re going to make a follow up the bare minimum level of respect you could have would be to put in the effort to finish your own thoughts.
IF she said that then yes it is absolutely wrong. No one in this thread or the other that I have seen has ever said that.
But you're basically arguing "as long as it still makes money, it's ok". That's not really a good pillar to base an argument on. Also, it's not only woman that will boycott these games or feel this way about the issue. You need to get that out of your head right now.
One last thing: It's not "could be taken". It absolutely is a tacit agreement. Non eof us are innocent of buying something that gives money to this kind of mind set. As long as you're aware of it and maybe deciding to not make one or two purchases because of it and voicing your concerns then we're miles ahead of where we were.
Except it wasn't. That comic is about the arguments that stemmed from the incident, not the comic that inspired the incident. It's specifically addressing the fact men frequently say that sexism isn't a problem because men are just as objectified which is a ridiculous lie.
When has anyone told you that you're wrong for liking large breasts? When has Anita Sarkeesian ever referenced her bra size?
I can't tell if this is willfully ignorant or if you're just willfully mischaracterizing other peoples' arguments.
Stop this white-knighting. Not every girl wants effaminate men. Nathan Drake and Co. are no "male power fantasy" (god what a stupid sentence), there are just the male equivalent of the perfect protagonist.
Show me where I said ANYTHING you just accused me of. You literally just LEAPT over our whole discussion directly into another one to defend yourself from something no one in this thread has said..
Not "fantasies"; "fantasy" singular. Even if someone is rejecting the (more important) sexism argument they should at least be able to see that even many men aren't being catered to.
It won't be my power fantasy until we get a game about a guy who gets bullied by others gaining powers that allow him to get comeuppance against them. It won't be my sexy lady fantasy until we get a game where your romantic interest can be a mousy, adorkable pear-shaped nerd girl.
Geth? Please?
I want you to read the bolded part and think about it for a minute.
Would you agree that there is an equivalence in those ideas?
There are a lot of different male power and male sexual fantasies being played out, but I'm not claiming that everyone is being catered. A lot of design right now appeals to what the industry assumes to be the lowest common denominator.
Let me expand out the quote that I was referring to:
I saw the bolded parts and assumed that he was referring to his kid, who is a girl, and his assertion that it's bad for girls to engage in consensual sex. "my kid" is androgynous, but his statement was worded to make "my kid" effectively a pronoun for his "6 year old daughter". He also further reinforced my impression that he was talking about women by using the word "Playmate" which I don't think applies to men. I'm certainly not going to try to confirm that from work. So that is my thinking in terms of how I arrived at the conclusion that he is, in fact, asserting that it is bad for women to be sexual - which is a highly misogynistic view.
I apologize if I came off as overly confrontational, but I believe my assertions still stand on their own merit.
1) As of the writing of my original post, all of his arguments as to why sexism isn't a problem are made from a male perspective.
2) He used the "Femenists need to learn to talk to me." argument.
3) He stated his belief that he doesn't want his daughter ("daughter" specifically based on my analysis above) to engage in anything sexual even with a loving, consenting partner.
I'll watch my phrasing in the future, but I'd still be curious to see the above issues addressed.
Interestingly enough, Sisyphus has just made the same mistake that REG Rysk did in point 1:
Ain't no one hating on your love of boobs. What people are arguing against isn't to tell men what they should like, but what makes women uncomfortable. What men like or don't like is largely irrelevant to the conversation. We are trying to address what makes women uncomfortable.
Ask yourself what it says about your perspective on life when a woman says "All these huge breasts make me uncomfortable and less inclined to play games," and you're immediate reaction is "Don't tell me what I should like!"
I have often advocated that reasonable armor/clothing should ship with the main game, and that the sexualized outfits be made available as day 1 DLC. Guys who like boobs can still ogle, girls aren't immediately disgusted by the character design, and game companies can rack up more bucks selling their DLC. Everyone wins.
I want more sexy men in my games and I want them NAOW
Do you want to know how I know you haven't read anything anyone's been saying?
Yes, you're very indignant about this mean strawman feminist shaming you for being attracted to women. Now, in this series of threads in which people have repeatedly said that's not what they're talking about and that sexuality is grand, what's your argument?
I can't begin to imagine what @Alpha268 believes "male power fantasy" means. Maybe he'll enlighten us?
Edit: Dang! Burned for quoting. Oh well, learned my lesson there.
Infracted @Grouch (2 points for 30 days) for "Disallowed phrase: Prohibited phrase "white-knighting""
This is literally all I want. The option for my character to be or not be sexy as I choose.
Design characters. I have plenty of other sources for sexy people.
Hey what is this, a study showing that women have been increasingly more sexualized than men in media? How can this beeeeeeee?
On my sleeve, let the runway start
otherwise why would they keep making it?
If you actually read the study, you'll see that both men and women's brains were studied, and both men and women process sexualized women as more animal. (to a far lesser extent, the study shows this can happen with male sexualized images as well).
RTFM.
On my sleeve, let the runway start
*checks Wikipedia*
I know it's uncouth to accuse others of trolling, but this attitude combined with this handle and this thread could not be better combined.
Anyway, long story short, nobody is saying "you can't like big breasts, no big breasts for anyone ever!".
They are saying "Y'know what? Maybe 'rude titties' shouldn't be the default for the vast majority of female characters in the vast majority of games. A little variety might be nice, a little less appeal to the preferences stereotypically associated with young white heterosexual males".
And as a (somewhat) young, white, heterosexual male I can look across countless movies, shows, games, book, magazines and other media and say "Yup, like 95% of this shit is aimed right at me, you can safely knock that down a percent or thirty and I'll still be up to my eyes in stuff that wants to appeal to my baser instincts". Well, aside from having interests and proclivities that aren't true to stereotype. But enough about how I spend my weekends.
There is a distinction. Not "NONE EVER WRONG BAD", but when an example like Dragon's Crown or whatever it's called comes up, it's hard to avoid eyestrain with all the rolling involved. It's cliche, it's done to death, and there are markets out there being largely untapped (oh gods what a poor choice of words) because the industry largely can't be bothered even trying to appeal to anyone else.
There are outliers like Valve and Bioware who may not get it perfect, but they try harder than most and it shows (in my opinion at least), but change won't just come from supporting those who produce things we like. In this day and age of social media, we can also make our voices heard expressing displeasure over things that are sexualized in a manner we find unpalatable. If you dig that stuff, hey, rock on. As an example of the like that has been brought up in the last thread; I bought and enjoyed Dead Island 1 enough that I probably would've bought DI2. Unfortunately they seem to think that I'm strictly run by my penis (well, not strictly...), and I resent that whole thing on a multitude of levels.
So, here we are. I am voting with my wallet; no pre-order from me, no matter how sweet the deal might be on Steam. And I'll tweet and facebook and forum post about the matter until told otherwise (please don't hurt me, Geth).
The artist posted a lengthy reply about why he made the characters like this. It's in at least two threads on these forums, but I don't think this is one of them; I think in the actual DC thread and in the PA Comic thread in the Hub. Anyway, the artist said he was specifically exaggerating male and female characteristics. That, for example, is why Dwarf has a Megabeard -- not because it's attractive, but because it's male. Dwarf and Amazon both have exaggerated muscles, but Dwarf's are even bigger because male exaggeration.
This gets complicated because of where our society is right now, though. Exaggerating the female winds up being a reduction to a lot of people. Exaggerating the male creates an image of power or strength instead. Is this because we already have ingrained into us that what is physically male is strong and powerful and what is physically female is weak and only for appeal to men? Is it because exaggerating the physical differences create discomfort because the physical differences already create discomfort in terms of giving men physical power over women? Is it because we see that which is distinctly female as being sexually appealing, but we don't see the same in that which is distinctly male?
A note: I acknowledge that the poses throw a wrench into some of this, but I'm interested in discussing the aspects of this unrelated to the suggestive poses in the promo pieces.
There is something wrong with big breasts being the only figure style allowed to female characters.
There is nothing wrong with sexy.
This is something wrong with one gender only being allowed to be presented in a sexualized manner.
There is nothing wrong with enjoying a nice perky ass
There is something wrong with making a woman uncomfortable with the way you stare and "compliment" her nice perky ass
There is nothing wrong with being attractive
There is something wrong with making women in the industry feel that they only have a place if they are also attractive, and then if they actually are physically beautiful making them feel that they only got where they are for that reason.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with women.
There is something wrong with making women feel that no matter what else they do, they'd better also make you want to have sex with them or they have failed to actually be a woman in some vital way.
On my sleeve, let the runway start
People like looking at people they find attractive. People like looking at anything they find aesthetically appealing. Artists like creating things they find aesthetically appealing.
I personally don't enjoy drawing things I find ugly, although I also think my idea of what is aesthetically appealing is more diverse than most. For example, one of my male Saints Row 2 characters had both the muscle and fat sliders at 50%, which resulted in a chunky yet somewhat defined physique and stable-looking, boxy overall form that looked powerful to me. One of my biggest problems with Saints Row the Third is that I couldn't replicate that form.
Actually this is a pretty big thing for me as a guy who likes looking at both genders.
90% of the time I don't want that shit in my game when it comes to outfits. I don't mind the characters looking attractive but putting them in silly outfits just detracts for the most part.
Offering the option to buy it is good because it gives the choice and sometimes you get fairly creative stuff out of it (Battle Bunny Riven for example).
Riot is getting better at this, slightly, though I'm sure now someone will have a post filled with image links to all the female champions.
And no, I never told you how to argue towards me. I was sharing my personal thought process on how these images don't affect me. I can't speak to other people's thought process or functionality. If you've become an expert on my mental state and interactions I would appreciate a much deeper and more personal conversations on my inner-workings, because as most humans do I struggle with them from time to time.
Your definition of sexism appears to be quite broad. We differ on that.
^^^ this so much this
people come across as pigs if they are already that way.
Except that they actually do affect you, because they affect everyone, and we have reams of studies that show that they effect everyone.
On my sleeve, let the runway start