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[Phalla] indie-series: Hot Potato - Village Victory | MrT is HoPo Champion

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  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    !Sign Up

  • BedlamBedlam Registered User regular
    Gizzy!

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Vote should all important and all powerful. Therefore I've changed the answer to the clarification asked before

    Phyphor wrote: »
    What happens if we redirect to the vote winner?
    Since the vote winner is removed from the game prior to the round starting, you will instead have to think on your feet quickly and will be forced to turn your Focus towards a random active player.

    ObiFett on
  • MrTLiciousMrTLicious Registered User regular
    Presumably the alternative is that your ability is wasted as if you did not select a target?

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    MrTLicious wrote: »
    Presumably the alternative is that your ability is wasted as if you did not select a target?

    Yeah, that might actually be better as well. The game won't start till Monday at the earliest so I have time to decide which option is better.

    RNG targeting is kinda crappy in general so avoiding that might be best.

  • Erin The RedErin The Red The Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMA Baton Rouge, LARegistered User regular
    WHAT'S TATERS PRECIOUS

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    MrTLicious wrote: »
    Presumably the alternative is that your ability is wasted as if you did not select a target?

    Yeah, that might actually be better as well. The game won't start till Monday at the earliest so I have time to decide which option is better.

    RNG targeting is kinda crappy in general so avoiding that might be best.
    The trick is, passing the potatoes around in a circle potentially shows up and mafia not wishing to do the same if the ability is only wasted.
    That said, such a strategy also has the potential to cascade, where the mafia do nothing because they're high on the list compared to the vote target, and the block of villagers at the bottom of the list all die off as the potatoes hit the end of the line.
    RNG foils this strategy, but also makes the game very hard to read.

  • Erin The RedErin The Red The Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMA Baton Rouge, LARegistered User regular
    Potatoes and things being foiled. More at 11!

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    I was sort of assuming some level of potato transit information above I guess.
    If everyone knows when a potato has passed by them, then a circle strategy becomes viable regardless of RNG or nullification of passes. You can tell when the potato leaves the ordered sequence as people downstream fail to receive the potato, and assume that that person is either a mafia or just a villager who doesn't want to work with the town. RNG has the slight possibility of reforming the sequence by targeting the immediate downstream player from the deviant player, but considering multiple potatoes are going to be handed round at once, it's unlikely to hide all the errors.
    If potato passes aren't known, then it becomes a bit trickier. If passes to the vote leader are annulled, then you can get a vague indication of where the deviant is in the cycle by how many players are eliminated from the end of the sequence compared to total deaths. The further down the order the deviant sits, the more potatoes are rerouted away from the bottom. It's also likely that such missing potatoes would then hit the leaders of the list just to minimise the chance of potato backfilling killing the rerouter. As potatoes are unlikely to all pass by the list leader, any of these potatoes thrown back to him would be passed down the list again, reducing the chance of his death and that of the person targeting him.
    However, in the last scenario with RNG, potatoes just fly everywhere and no-one is safe.

  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Info Broker Registered User regular
    Discrider, two important things to keep in mind:

    1. Getting everyone to do something in phalla is almost impossible. All you would need is one villager targeting someone out of order and it could throw the whole circle off.

    2. If specials are using potatoes, you'd run a very high risk of either exposing or killing them. Since it is unclear whether a special could also redirect, they'd likely be the place where a potato stops. This is even worse if the mafia have some sort of "killer potato"

    3. It's a Saturday night and I just got home from the bar. I may be wrong.

  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    If you have a circle (say A->B->C->D->E->A), then kills are still targetable. Kills on A & C in that case would kill A & C (kill on A follows the full chain, ends up at A which can't redirect anymore; then C hits hit, can't redirect anymore)

  • HippieHippie Registered User regular
    I don't understand any of this. I just wanna throw potatoes!

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    1. Getting everyone to do something in phalla is almost impossible. All you would need is one villager targeting someone out of order and it could throw the whole circle off.

    2. If specials are using potatoes, you'd run a very high risk of either exposing or killing them. Since it is unclear whether a special could also redirect, they'd likely be the place where a potato stops. This is even worse if the mafia have some sort of "killer potato"
    With 1, it doesn't matter so long as a majority of people follow the pattern. Eliminating people who want to do their own thing whether they're mafia or not is still a good way to kill all the mafia.
    With 2, I'd expect that everyone can always redirect, otherwise, special or no, they'd not have made it this far into the HoPo pro leagues. But it's still a good point.
    Phyphor wrote: »
    If you have a circle (say A->B->C->D->E->A), then kills are still targetable. Kills on A & C in that case would kill A & C (kill on A follows the full chain, ends up at A which can't redirect anymore; then C hits hit, can't redirect anymore)

    This is why it wouldn't be a circle. It would instead be A->B->C->D->E->A where D is voted out beforehand. Then if there is no RNG, B and C die. E and A might be laughing, but the order would be set before the vote and at random. You'd have vote manipulation from everybody to prevent the chain ending just after them, for example B and C were probably voting A the prior day, but this shouldn't be that severe early game, and the tie rules discourage last minute shenanigans anyhow.

    This is purely theoretical of course, and I wholly suspect that the match is going to just wind up being an uncoordinated potato slinging fest.

    discrider on
  • archivistkitsunearchivistkitsune Registered User regular
    I suspect that we'll have a few abilities, might be one time things, that will get around the bus drive abilities in game. I would actually be surprised if the mafia had no means to reliably land a kill on the intended target. Once you get something that can't be bus driven, that's where you run into issues with the circle, where A, B, C, and E are all telling the truth because D ate a non-bus drivable kill.

    Let's also say that host PMs only mention if something affects someone and makes no mention of abilities that are bus driven off (aka the player is not told that F bus drove a kill on them and that they drove that to H). Also let's also assume in such a scenario, that no one is told that they were targeted by a bus drive. This leads to scenarios that allows people to lie. So E could be a baddie, and directly target B with a bus drive action that results in B dying a horrible death. A won't have the defense of saying that they never got a PM stating that someone bus drove onto them.

    Even if we get a PM that states we were targeted by a bus drive, this falls apart if the mafia have a kill that doesn't eat someone's action for the night and can't be bus driven (quite common in phalla). D eats the mafia kill, well it turns out that C is also mafia, C could argue they wouldn't be that dumb and that maybe the kill wasn't something that could be driven and didn't originate with them. Now C knows that D is likely to die that night, so C targets H and it just happens to result in the vig kill be driven in such a manner that it gets J killed (maybe the kill can only jump from so many players or J was a nub and forgot to submit orders).

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    I'm expecting the mafia to apply quick dry epoxy to the potatoes because cheating, so their potatoes are likely to break the circle but still.
    Mill wrote: »
    Let's also say that host PMs only mention if something affects someone and makes no mention of abilities that are bus driven off (aka the player is not told that F bus drove a kill on them and that they drove that to H). Also let's also assume in such a scenario, that no one is told that they were targeted by a bus drive. This leads to scenarios that allows people to lie. So E could be a baddie, and directly target B with a bus drive action that results in B dying a horrible death. A won't have the defense of saying that they never got a PM stating that someone bus drove onto them.

    Originally I was thinking you could look at the dead zones formed by the potato kills and see what areas of the circle are likely to have be skipped and work out who shirked their target. But then I realised that whoever's at the end (C in the example) is unlikely to just lay down and die. So the vote leader would not even be a part of the circle in the first place, as C would aim at the top of the list to avoid having their target die from the first potato.
    This means that, if everyone tells the truth and does their part aside from C, the people handed potatoes at the beginning of the round would die to them at the end of potato passing, and that information would be useless.

    If C were more willing to die, then you could look at who died and how many potatoes hit that area of the list. So if you had 6 potatoes going around and only 2 made it to C (and B ), then you could guess that someone about 2/3rds of the way down the list diverted potatoes to another player, assuming a random distribution. If the potatoes are put into the circle by players however, this distribution need not be random at all. The player wouldn't need to divert all the potatoes though. A player diverting potatoes 1/3 the way down the list would be camouflaged by the player diverting 2/3 the way down the list. You might be able to figure out which potatoes landed roughly where by the people they eliminate (someone lower in the order would die to potatoes that started lower in the order as people who started higher than that potato in the list would still have their bus driving power available for that potato), but it seems like a long shot.

    discrider on
  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    discrider wrote: »
    1. Getting everyone to do something in phalla is almost impossible. All you would need is one villager targeting someone out of order and it could throw the whole circle off.

    2. If specials are using potatoes, you'd run a very high risk of either exposing or killing them. Since it is unclear whether a special could also redirect, they'd likely be the place where a potato stops. This is even worse if the mafia have some sort of "killer potato"
    With 1, it doesn't matter so long as a majority of people follow the pattern. Eliminating people who want to do their own thing whether they're mafia or not is still a good way to kill all the mafia.
    With 2, I'd expect that everyone can always redirect, otherwise, special or no, they'd not have made it this far into the HoPo pro leagues. But it's still a good point.
    Phyphor wrote: »
    If you have a circle (say A->B->C->D->E->A), then kills are still targetable. Kills on A & C in that case would kill A & C (kill on A follows the full chain, ends up at A which can't redirect anymore; then C hits hit, can't redirect anymore)

    This is why it wouldn't be a circle. It would instead be A->B->C->D->E->A where D is voted out beforehand. Then if there is no RNG, B and C die. E and A might be laughing, but the order would be set before the vote and at random. You'd have vote manipulation from everybody to prevent the chain ending just after them, for example B and C were probably voting A the prior day, but this shouldn't be that severe early game, and the tie rules discourage last minute shenanigans anyhow.

    This is purely theoretical of course, and I wholly suspect that the match is going to just wind up being an uncoordinated potato slinging fest.

    Actually only C would die in that case because B would still throw to C. The kills will always end up either hitting their target, or at the end of the chain, to back to themselves (assuming a simultaneous resolution where all potatoes are thrown before exploding)

    Phyphor on
  • AuralynxAuralynx Darkness is a perspective Watching the ego workRegistered User regular
    I'm going to have to withdraw.

  • MrTLiciousMrTLicious Registered User regular
    Doing the chain, assuming that all abilities are potatoes, assures seers and kills end up on the same target.

  • Erin The RedErin The Red The Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMA Baton Rouge, LARegistered User regular
    STOP THEORIZING WE HAVENT STARTED YET IVE ALREADY WON YOU FOOLS CANT SEE IT I AM EATING POTATOES FOR DINNER TOMORROW THIS IS THE FUTURE MY HORSE IS AMAAAAAAZING

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    1. Getting everyone to do something in phalla is almost impossible. All you would need is one villager targeting someone out of order and it could throw the whole circle off.

    2. If specials are using potatoes, you'd run a very high risk of either exposing or killing them. Since it is unclear whether a special could also redirect, they'd likely be the place where a potato stops. This is even worse if the mafia have some sort of "killer potato"
    With 1, it doesn't matter so long as a majority of people follow the pattern. Eliminating people who want to do their own thing whether they're mafia or not is still a good way to kill all the mafia.
    With 2, I'd expect that everyone can always redirect, otherwise, special or no, they'd not have made it this far into the HoPo pro leagues. But it's still a good point.
    Phyphor wrote: »
    If you have a circle (say A->B->C->D->E->A), then kills are still targetable. Kills on A & C in that case would kill A & C (kill on A follows the full chain, ends up at A which can't redirect anymore; then C hits hit, can't redirect anymore)

    This is why it wouldn't be a circle. It would instead be A->B->C->D->E->A where D is voted out beforehand. Then if there is no RNG, B and C die. E and A might be laughing, but the order would be set before the vote and at random. You'd have vote manipulation from everybody to prevent the chain ending just after them, for example B and C were probably voting A the prior day, but this shouldn't be that severe early game, and the tie rules discourage last minute shenanigans anyhow.

    This is purely theoretical of course, and I wholly suspect that the match is going to just wind up being an uncoordinated potato slinging fest.

    Actually only C would die in that case because B would still throw to C. The kills will always end up either hitting their target, or at the end of the chain, to back to themselves (assuming a simultaneous resolution where all potatoes are thrown before exploding)

    I'm inclined to believe that all kill abilities will drop potatoes, and that potatoes will therefore not stack, as otherwise all the potatoes are liable to wind up on the same target each and every round. Not much fun being a SK if the only target always dies regardless of what you do.

  • JaentherJaenther Registered User regular
    This thread is already nigh-unreadable gibberish. Sign me up!

  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Mmmmm, potato

  • BedlamBedlam Registered User regular
    I throw my potatoe on the ground!

    Im not a part of your system!

  • MarikirMarikir Registered User regular
    Sure, let's learn the ins and outs of potatoes and their innate desire to be passed amongst us all.

    steam_sig.png "Hiding in plain sight." PSN/XBL: Marikir
  • Erin The RedErin The Red The Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMA Baton Rouge, LARegistered User regular
    Happy famine to the groooooound

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    I'm looking to get the game started soon. We don't want the game going too far into next week with Thanksgiving and all.

    So look for an initial narration and PMs tonight.

  • Mikey CTSMikey CTS Registered User regular
    Okay. Why not.

    // PSN: wyrd_warrior // MHW Name: Josei //
  • MegafrostMegafrost Leader of the Decepticons Registered User regular
    If I'm silent tonight, it might be the result of not having internet.

    Or being a mafia.

    Or Prime throwing away his life recklessly.

  • archivistkitsunearchivistkitsune Registered User regular
    Clearly, it will be a result of Prime severing your internet for being a member of the mafia. He will also end up recklessly ending your life since, he'll have decided to use you to sever that internet connection, by throwing you at it repeatedly. :p

  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    If a player with a valid redirect recieves two potatoes, which is then passed on?

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    Both.
    It's when two potatoes get passed to them twice that stuff happens.

  • The AnonymousThe Anonymous Uh, uh, uhhhhhh... Uh, uh.Registered User regular
    STOP THEORIZING WE HAVENT STARTED YET IVE ALREADY WON YOU FOOLS CANT SEE IT I AM EATING POTATOES FOR DINNER TOMORROW THIS IS THE FUTURE MY HORSE IS AMAAAAAAZING
    I ate home-cooked chips last night. I win, you lose.

  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Oh. Hmm I guess I misread the text before

  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Pregame Show
    2286454-espn_8_the_ocho.jpg

    "Welcome to the Hot Potato World Championships Pregame show on ESPN 8, THE OCHO! I'm Russet Stevens."

    -"and I'm George Idaho!"

    "And wow do we have an amazing event in store for you today. The most physically and mentally skilled players from all across the globe have gathered today to show their Hot Potato prowess in an attempt to take home the coveted Golden Masher and title of HoPo Champion of 2013."

    "That's right Russet. Right now we can see kime warming up on the court. And of course he is known for always claiming to be the Heater."

    "Its worked out well for him in the past, as he has a Hot Potato throw rate of nearly .698, one of the highest in the sport!"

    "And there's TheRoadVirus, one of the most talkative players in the game. Known as one of the great distractors of our time, his ability to make other players laugh and smile generally keeps the potatoes from flying his way. "

    "An all time low targeted rate shows he knows what he is doing. Although I'm not sure how effective it will be around all the other top players in the game."

    "Speaking of, it looks like all of our players have made it to the court. Lets go over the rules for those at home."

    "Will do, George. Hot Potato is played over a number of rounds until either one player is left or a game state is reached where there would be no players left in the next round, at which time we would have co-champions. The game starts with every player having a stash of Potatoes in front of them."

    "Well, they aren't actual Potatoes."

    "No of course not. Two decades ago the game went electronic. So the stash of Potatoes is actually a basket of digitally controlled RFID units made to look like Potatoes and act like the different types of potatoes used in the original game. With some new types thrown in during the past decade or so."

    "I'd like to see someone take a bite of those."

    "I bet you would. As I was saying, every player starts with a stash of Inactive Potatoes in front of them. When the round starts, some of those Potatoes will glow red, marking them as Active. Its the job of the player at that time to get rid of every Active Potato in their stash by throwing it at another player. Each round has a randomly determined time limit. All players left holding an Active Potato revealed as HOT when the round ends will be eliminated. Pretty simple."

    "Russet! You left out the most important parts. What about the Heaters? The Coolers? The Splitters? Or the Nodes?"

    "Well that's the fun part of watching Hot Potato, I think. Learning about the roles that may or may not be in the game this time. No two games have the same types of potatoes in the same distribution. Its a puzzle for everyone involved and watching. I wouldn't want to take that away from the viewers at home. I will tell them that the digital armbands the players are wearing are for more than just tracking the movement of the Potatoes and ensuring an accurate Hold status when the time ends. There are tricks given to specific randomly chosen players. See if you can figure out who is doing what!"

    "We are going to do our best to help you do just that. We will be giving you a very detailed play-by-play of every round."

    "Exactly, George. Speaking of, it looks like the first round is about to begin!"

    ____________________________

    Day 1 ends at 10pm MST on Tuesday. Vote to remove someone from the game with a red vote

    All actions should be submitted in the same PM that you received your role.

    Role PMs are going out now

    ObiFett on
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    Clarification Update
    Phyphor wrote: »
    What happens if we redirect to the vote winner?
    The vote winner is an invalid target for all powers. It will be as if you didn't use your power that round.

    Phyphor wrote: »
    If a player with a valid redirect recieves two potatoes, which is then passed on?
    Based on the villager power "Focus": They would throw each Potato they haven't already thrown.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Do potatoes cascade? That is, if two potatoes are thrown to someone who has used their redirect for both of them, does one eliminate them and the other hit the person who tried to throw it to the now eliminated player? Or do they all stack onto the eliminated player?

    discrider on
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    Do potatoes cascade? That is, if two potatoes are thrown to someone who has used their redirect for both of them, does one eliminate them and the other hit the person who tried to throw it to the now eliminated player?

    No.

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I object, my throw rate was clearly calculated incorrectly. It's at least .700!

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    All PMs are out and everyone should have gotten one. If you didn't get one, let me know.

    Day 1 starts now and ends tomorrow at 10pm MST.

    ObiFett on
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    I am all the mafia

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
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