[Giant Bomb], Greasy Ham

Moriveth

Mr. G wrote: »

Early Days Bombcast Check-In

March 2008

"Guitar Hero: Beatles" sounds really stupid, why don't they make a Rock Band Beatles game, Guitar Hero is just guitar and Rock Band is the whole band

Ryan thinks eventually Guitar Hero will have to add multiple instruments and Jeff thinks they don't have to do shit, Guitar Hero's doing just fine

Remember when Jeff was excited for Game Room

Mr. G

Sony rumors from "industry insider" Ahsan Rasheed

- Local support for PS1 and PS2 games is coming to PS4, including native 1080p rendering for select titles
- Playstation Now is launching this summer
- Sony is inviting feedback and criticism from third-party developers on Morpheus, which is the same process they designed the PS4 and the DualShock 4 with

This guy has apparently has had reliable information before and is overall considered trustworthy

Langly

getting full backwards compatibility for psx/2 games would be crazy, wow.

Moriveth

That would be really cool. I mean I don't really have any PS1 games but I've got a PS2 game I've never played and I'd love to play DQ8 sometime.

Mr. G

And it seems really possible

Maybe I'm just tech-stupid

But you just have to add PS1 and PS2 emulators to the console through a software update

Emulation's pretty good for those systems now, and the PS4 is supposedly pretty much a PC

agoaj

It's time for Bleem! to return, this time for PS4 with a dreamcast emulator to run Bleemcast Metal Gear Solid.

Mr. G

Mercenary Kings will also be next month's free PS4 game for PS+, I'm told

Chincymcchilla

Poorochondriac wrote: »

Chincymcchilla wrote: »

Poorochondriac wrote: »

Chincymcchilla wrote: »

Poorochondriac wrote: »

Langly wrote: »

Poorochondriac wrote: »

Chincymcchilla wrote: »

Poorochondriac wrote: »

I'll be hitting the hay soon, but I will close with this - Sucker Punch's decision was disappointing, but at the end of the day, not entirely unexpected. Indians are poorly represented faaaaar more often than not.

What's really disheartening, though, is the full-throated defense of poor representation. That's a tougher pill to swallow.

I am not defending poor representation

I always want better representation for underrepresented groups

What I am saying is that the industry as a whole continues to get better and I am psyched to play as a well developed native american protagonist

He's by all accounts a good character and that's awesome

I think calling the whole thing bad representation is letting the hair spoil the whole soup, that's all

One final piece of food for thought - a thing I think is weird in conversations about represtation is the "Well if it's this hard/they get grief, maybe they shouldn't bother." Because that defense comes up in no other element of game design. If I criticized a game's graphics, nobody would say "Well I guess they shouldn't have bothered having graphics at all." And hiring a consultant is waaaaaay easier than rendering the Space Needle in exquisite detail. Something being hard almost never stops game developers, until it comes to representation.

Well I think that the argument here is a little different, because it is something that can easily be dropped. A game has to have graphics, by definition. It has to have some sort of visual representation. A game designer can't say oh well making this world is too hard, I'll just drop it. Well, now I don't have a product at all.

They absolutely can say, making this minority representation is too hard, let's just have a white guy with a beard. And immediately that choice is made and now everything is easier.

To your point about this forum and game designers not seeing it, I think you and chincy are arguing at cross purposes. He's talking about the criticism they will see, and you are talking about your own specific criticisms in this thread. I don't think there's been a big public outcry about this, or at least I haven't seen it, but let's say for the sake of argument that there was. Everyone on Twitter and Tumblr makes a big stir about this representation, and now the designers do see it. From a pure business prospective, I can easily see the reaction not being "ok next time let's do better," and instead being "next time let's just not try that."

I'm not saying you're wrong to bring criticism or even that a large public outcry would be wrong either, just that the idea that the way the company will take that sort of anger could easily be "let's not rattle that wasp's nest again." Because if they don't, then they're merely contributing to an overall status quo problem, and it's more difficult to get mad at someone for not even trying.

I went hyperbolic for emphasis, but I was commenting more on how unfortunate it is that game developers seem to embrace technical challenges - always going bigger, better, newer, shinier - but shy away from challenges in the realm of representation. Like, we're gonna have virtual reality before we have consistently well-portrayed female characters, and women are 52% of the world. It's funny, is all. (and by funny I mean sad). I wasn't literally asking why developers never go "fine, we won't have graphics," that would be insane.

My take on the "but what if they take the wrong message away" argument is that it cuts both ways. If nothing is said, if they're praised for a lackluster effort, what if they take the wrong message away? What if instead of, "That went well, we should keep exploring that," they go, "Aha, nailed it, got it in one" and halfass their way through all future minority portrayals? That's the problem with modeling present behavior off of potential futures - you can't ever really know one way or the other. A well-meaning attempt to stifle criticism is still an attempt to stifle criticism, at the end of the day, and that tends to chap my hide a lil bit no matter what.

Just like you didn't say that the tribe should play a bigger role, I did not say nothing should be said

In fact I said multiple times you SHOULD speak out

I just think it should be tempered with "Hey this is a character from a minority that a lot of people really like, that's great, here's how to get better"

And just as we apparently disagree on the definition of "poor representation," we apparently disagree on the level of deference due to developers.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

I think everyone who is trying to do something good should be given the benefit of the doubt weather they're a developer or not, yeah

I don't think coming down on someone the first time they try something and get it wrong is constructive or helpful to anyone

Then I guess we also disagree on how pure we think their motives were in this particular instance, but that gets into gut feelings and all sorts of unprovable stuff that I wouldn't be totally comfortable wading into

I have been turning this over in my head and can't even think of another motivation

like they aren't going to make more money by having a native american protagonist

Bluedude152

Mr. G wrote: »

Mercenary Kings will also be next month's free PS4 game for PS+, I'm told

This is great news

Who else has a Ps4. I wanna co-op

Mr. G

These old Bombcasts also transport me back to the time where the Xbox Live Arcade was THE place for the hot new indie games

Ceno

I've been listening to 2011 bombcasts lately. Brad thinks this whole MOBA genre thing is a little iffy and weird.

BlankZoe

Bluedude152 wrote: »

Mr. G wrote: »

Mercenary Kings will also be next month's free PS4 game for PS+, I'm told

This is great news

Who else has a Ps4. I wanna co-op

Yoooo

BlankZoe

Mr. G wrote: »

Mercenary Kings will also be next month's free PS4 game for PS+, I'm told

I was hoping for Octodad but this is a welcome alternative

Bluedude152

Blankzilla wrote: »

Bluedude152 wrote: »

Mr. G wrote: »

Mercenary Kings will also be next month's free PS4 game for PS+, I'm told

This is great news

Who else has a Ps4. I wanna co-op

Yoooo

Now I just need to go figure out what my user name was

It's been months since I touched that thing

BlankZoe

Mine is, shockingly, Blankzilla.

I think Vow is my only PS4 friend actually

BlankZoe

Just letting you guys know

Black Knight 2000 is still one of the best themes in video game history

Chincymcchilla

Blankzilla wrote: »

Just letting you guys know

Black Knight 2000 is still one of the best themes in video game history

NO WAY

SCREECH OF THE FARG

GIVE ME YOUR MONEY

BlankZoe

Chincymcchilla wrote: »

Blankzilla wrote: »

Just letting you guys know

Black Knight 2000 is still one of the best themes in video game history

NO WAY

GIVE ME YOUR MONEY

ChicoBlue

YAIBA

FINALLY A GAME THAT COMBINES THE HUMOUR AND 'TUDE OF THE POSTAL SERIES WITH XBOX GAIDEN

PwnanObrien

On the heels of the PS1 emulation rumors I'm just going to say something I've been thinking of lately: Twisted Metal 2 is one of the best examples of competitive balance ever burned to a disk.

TheySlashThem

Smite has officially been released

where's Brad

Librarian's ghost

Blankzilla wrote: »

Mine is, shockingly, Blankzilla.

I think Vow is my only PS4 friend actually

I must rectify this. I sent you a request. Bonus. If you accept you not only get to see my real name, but you also get to view Jeff's profile on my friend list.

Chincymcchilla

ThatDudeOverThere wrote: »

Smite has officially been released

where's Brad

I've asked for Brad to look at SMITE multiple times

no dice

PwnanObrien

ThatDudeOverThere wrote: »

Smite has officially been released

where's Brad

Speaking of competitive balance...

How does Smite measure up to SMNC? I still contest that having direct control over your character instead of relying on AI pathing makes it the best MOBA.

SCREECH OF THE FARG

Well for one, smite ain't dead

Chincymcchilla

PwnanObrien wrote: »

ThatDudeOverThere wrote: »

Smite has officially been released

where's Brad

Speaking of competitive balance...

How does Smite measure up to SMNC? I still contest that having direct control over your character instead of relying on AI pathing makes it the best MOBA.

What do you mean by competitive balance

character balance?

mechanics balance?

Ms Dapper

What's Wrong with Metal Gear Solid 5: Ground Zeroes' Ending? \

I liked this article, but like always avoid the comments like the plague.

PwnanObrien

Chincymcchilla wrote: »

PwnanObrien wrote: »

ThatDudeOverThere wrote: »

Smite has officially been released

where's Brad

Speaking of competitive balance...

How does Smite measure up to SMNC? I still contest that having direct control over your character instead of relying on AI pathing makes it the best MOBA.

What do you mean by competitive balance

character balance?

mechanics balance?

Both? Extra Credits did a great episode on this sort of thing but unique mechanics for characters actually does a lot to add balance between characters.

Chincymcchilla

PwnanObrien wrote: »

Chincymcchilla wrote: »

PwnanObrien wrote: »

ThatDudeOverThere wrote: »

Smite has officially been released

where's Brad

Speaking of competitive balance...

How does Smite measure up to SMNC? I still contest that having direct control over your character instead of relying on AI pathing makes it the best MOBA.

What do you mean by competitive balance

character balance?

mechanics balance?

Both? Extra Credits did a great episode on this sort of thing but unique mechanics for characters actually does a lot to add balance between characters.

Character balance is ok, they are constantly working on it

seasleepy

Chincymcchilla wrote: »

Langly wrote: »

Poorochondriac wrote: »

Chincymcchilla wrote: »

Poorochondriac wrote: »

I'll be hitting the hay soon, but I will close with this - Sucker Punch's decision was disappointing, but at the end of the day, not entirely unexpected. Indians are poorly represented faaaaar more often than not.

What's really disheartening, though, is the full-throated defense of poor representation. That's a tougher pill to swallow.

I am not defending poor representation

I always want better representation for underrepresented groups

What I am saying is that the industry as a whole continues to get better and I am psyched to play as a well developed native american protagonist

He's by all accounts a good character and that's awesome

I think calling the whole thing bad representation is letting the hair spoil the whole soup, that's all

One final piece of food for thought - a thing I think is weird in conversations about represtation is the "Well if it's this hard/they get grief, maybe they shouldn't bother." Because that defense comes up in no other element of game design. If I criticized a game's graphics, nobody would say "Well I guess they shouldn't have bothered having graphics at all." And hiring a consultant is waaaaaay easier than rendering the Space Needle in exquisite detail. Something being hard almost never stops game developers, until it comes to representation.

Well I think that the argument here is a little different, because it is something that can easily be dropped. A game has to have graphics, by definition. It has to have some sort of visual representation. A game designer can't say oh well making this world is too hard, I'll just drop it. Well, now I don't have a product at all.

They absolutely can say, making this minority representation is too hard, let's just have a white guy with a beard. And immediately that choice is made and now everything is easier.

To your point about this forum and game designers not seeing it, I think you and chincy are arguing at cross purposes. He's talking about the criticism they will see, and you are talking about your own specific criticisms in this thread. I don't think there's been a big public outcry about this, or at least I haven't seen it, but let's say for the sake of argument that there was. Everyone on Twitter and Tumblr makes a big stir about this representation, and now the designers do see it. From a pure business prospective, I can easily see the reaction not being "ok next time let's do better," and instead being "next time let's just not try that."

I'm not saying you're wrong to bring criticism or even that a large public outcry would be wrong either, just that the idea that the way the company will take that sort of anger could easily be "let's not rattle that wasp's nest again." Because if they don't, then they're merely contributing to an overall status quo problem, and it's more difficult to get mad at someone for not even trying.

Yes thank you

I'm not saying that things shouldn't be better and I'm not saying you shouldn't speak out

But I worry what would happen if the designers got hold of a lot of concern over the portrayal

This is an awful lot of handwringing for criticism that, at its most stringent, amounted to "one aspect of this was poorly done and I personally find it really fucking annoying."

Diarmuid

I'm not sure which part of zombie clown I find more disturbing.

Librarian's ghost

Ugh I got the ps4 trophy sync glitch and I'm not sure which game caused it. I tried starting every game on it. No dice. Tried rebuilding the database from safe mode, nope. Now I'm trying to start games on my vita, but if that doesn't work I gotta re initialize my ps4.

PwnanObrien

Diarmuid wrote: »

I'm not sure which part of zombie clown I find more disturbing.

I've not seen the Yaiba quicklook yet but I'm going to say...the penis?

SoaL

finally get to do VISUALIZER tonight

i didn't sleep at all last night so I'm going to nap...

wee hoo

JohnHam

I wonder how a real-world tribe would respond to being used as a

genocidal prop

as Infamous' tribe effectively is over the course of the story.

I think it would be a very good thing to have more detailed, realistic native American representation in games, but I sort of understand why it wasn't a focus for Sucker Punch here (though I don't excuse it). And it definitely wasn't an area of focus. The game doesn't even spell the name of its own fictional tribe consistently in subtitles.

Doobh

Sucker Punch could have easily used a real tribe, and easily hired someone for consultation.

And it would have been real cool if they did. Full stop.

This OH NO IF THEY HEAR ANY CRITICISM THEY'LL NOT TRY IT AGAIN is some bogus slippery slope thinking. And if that's all it takes to scare someone off, I doubt their commitment to fair representation in the first place.

Doobh

But, hey, don't mind me. What would I know about shitty representation?

Speed Racer

These videos are really good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQx_VG4S2Vc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ljAHf4zGQs

Mr. G

https://twitter.com/jeffgerstmann/status/448532061515567104

Giant Bomb co-founder and veteran games journalist Jeff Gerstmann comes to NYU Game Center to share his experience in nearly two decades of game journalism. Come talk about how the industry has changed, where it might be headed, and why Windjammers is the future of e-sports with the co-founder of one of Time magazine's Top 50 websites of 2011 and a leader in personality-based games journalism.