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Discuss National Infrastructure And Also Kirby In The [Nintendo] Thread
It's smart stuff, but one major change kind of undercuts the concept: You can now save in the middle of your three-day loop.
In the original Majora's Mask, the only way to save your game was to reset time, while the game's fast-travel statues allowed you to create temporary suspend states that would erase when you loaded them. Now, those statues — and tons of new, special save point statues — let you create proper saves on the ground. It takes a lot of difficulty and tension out of the proceedings, as screwing up during a cycle doesn't mean you have to restart that cycle; it just means you have to pick things up from your latest save. While that scheme is perhaps more streamlined, it's also a bit less interesting.
Gameboys were my systems growing up, so I've always been more comfortable on portables anyway. Ironically, I find it difficult to sit on the couch and play something on the TV for long periods of time, but I could curl up with my 3DS anywhere and play for hours on end.
It's smart stuff, but one major change kind of undercuts the concept: You can now save in the middle of your three-day loop.
In the original Majora's Mask, the only way to save your game was to reset time, while the game's fast-travel statues allowed you to create temporary suspend states that would erase when you loaded them. Now, those statues — and tons of new, special save point statues — let you create proper saves on the ground. It takes a lot of difficulty and tension out of the proceedings, as screwing up during a cycle doesn't mean you have to restart that cycle; it just means you have to pick things up from your latest save. While that scheme is perhaps more streamlined, it's also a bit less interesting.
It's smart stuff, but one major change kind of undercuts the concept: You can now save in the middle of your three-day loop.
In the original Majora's Mask, the only way to save your game was to reset time, while the game's fast-travel statues allowed you to create temporary suspend states that would erase when you loaded them. Now, those statues — and tons of new, special save point statues — let you create proper saves on the ground. It takes a lot of difficulty and tension out of the proceedings, as screwing up during a cycle doesn't mean you have to restart that cycle; it just means you have to pick things up from your latest save. While that scheme is perhaps more streamlined, it's also a bit less interesting.
Sounds like some nostalgia, rose tinted glasses, back in my-day, type of thing.
Like -Tal said the old system was literally done due to memory constraints, not as an intentional design decision.
It's smart stuff, but one major change kind of undercuts the concept: You can now save in the middle of your three-day loop.
In the original Majora's Mask, the only way to save your game was to reset time, while the game's fast-travel statues allowed you to create temporary suspend states that would erase when you loaded them. Now, those statues — and tons of new, special save point statues — let you create proper saves on the ground. It takes a lot of difficulty and tension out of the proceedings, as screwing up during a cycle doesn't mean you have to restart that cycle; it just means you have to pick things up from your latest save. While that scheme is perhaps more streamlined, it's also a bit less interesting.
Sounds like some nostalgia, rose tinted glasses, back in my-day, type of thing.
Like -Tal said the old system was literally done due to memory constraints, not as an intentional design decision.
Nah, I get what he means. I prefer the new method from an "enjoying playing this game" standpoint, but he's right that the old system is more interesting. It adds to the overall theme of the game. You can't save-scum your way through. Resetting and trying again is an actual game mechanic and that's kind of neat.
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
Like, fucking up the Anju and Kafei quest right at the end and having to restart from the beginning isn't fun, and while it may add tension to the game, it's the bad kind of tension.
You really don't want to mess up the conveyor belt puzzle not because it's hard and a challenge, but because if you do you're going to have to repeat a half hour of side quest that you just did.
The way save points are handled depends on the type of game for me. I like having to fight to get to Castles and Boo Houses and the like to save in 2D Mario games and a lot of the tension in ZombiU was being in a dire situation far removed from your safe house.
Portable games is where making things more flexible makes sense though, so that Majora's Mask setup sounds ideal. At the same time, I like the way the original game handled it and wouldn't have changed anything about it.
It's weird to think that at this point there've been more bad-to-mediocre star fox games than there have been good ones
When people say they like Star Fox, they really mean they like Star Fox 64.
I mean I like Star Fox on the SNES, personally. Like, I enjoyed 64 too but the SNES is easily my favorite.
+1
turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
edited February 2015
I think with the new save system I might go for "the perfect run" for the first time in a while.
Perfect run being having all of the following done when you go to confront skullkid and end the game.
All 4 bosses dead.
Saved Romani and escorted Cremia to town. Buy Chateau Romani.
Saved the Zora eggs.
Kafei and Anju reunited.
Saved the man in the music-box house (this might happen automatically if Twin Mold is killed? I don't remember)
Save the dude cursed in the swamp spider house.
I'm probably forgetting something, but basically do all the things that stopping the moon wouldn't fix and create the world state the ending portrays.
As someone who is looking forward to getting to play Majora's Mask for the first time ever I barely managed to skip reading your post in time turtleant.
I can definitely see complaints with the save change.
I liked both Majora's Mask and Dead Rising save systems because they force you to experience the progression of time and consequences of mistakes, and because they are designed for replaying the days over and over again.
Unfortunately, that runs against people that want to do the "perfect run" the first time and be able to instantly correct any mistakes by reverting to a recent save.
Ideally, both types of games could exist without one group declaring that the save system is "broken" and must be fixed (instead of simply playing a different game that was designed with them in mind).
That said, I don't really have a problem with the changes to Majora's Mask save system since it's still technically possible to play it the old way (I would have left in the option to save during a reset though), it's on a portable so more lax saving is basically required, and you can still easily buy the original version on virtual console or whatever. Zelda as a whole also has a much wider target audience, and though Majora's Mask has a reputation for being different, opening it up to a bigger audience isn't a bad thing.
I do think in a few months we'll probably be seeing posts around the internet about how new players didn't get as heavily invested in Termina and it's citizens as they had expected from it's reputation, but the save system would only play a part in that occurring (there's also nostalgia/overhype, the new bomber's notebook, and the general shorter attention span that everyone is basically trained to have now a days).
Edit: I was still typing my post when turtleant posted about doing a "perfect run." My comment about that was in no way intended to be calling him out about that, and I was actually thinking more of the players who wanted the best ending in Dead Rising on their first playthrough than Majora's Mask at the time I typed that. Turtleant's use of perfect run is also a different thing than what I was talking about.
Lars on
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
I'm probably forgetting something, but basically do all the things that stopping the moon wouldn't fix and create the world state the ending portrays.
Get all the masks, save all the fairies?
Masks carry over from one loop to another. Also I figure the fairies will find their own way home once the monsters are gotten rid of. Also because there's no way in hell you'd be able to fit them in there.
Unfortunately, that runs against people that want to do the "perfect run" the first time and be able to instantly correct any mistakes by reverting to a recent save.
It also runs against people, you want to, you know, sneak in playing a game for a quick 10 minutes.
Unfortunately, that runs against people that want to do the "perfect run" the first time and be able to instantly correct any mistakes by reverting to a recent save.
It also runs against people, you want to, you know, sneak in playing a game for a quick 10 minutes.
I don't think this is something every game needs to account for.
Though as I already said, it's understandable when it's being ported to a portable.
The number one thing that will keep me from playing a game these days is not being sure if I can make enough progress in what time I have to save that progress.
Save everywhere means I never have to worry. Like -Tal said, it's 2015, every game should let me save anywhere, any time.
I can pause a movie whenever I want, I can put down a book whenever I want. Games don't really have an excuse.
Majora's Mask does force you to experience the progression of time and inpermanence and the inability to do everything, but I didn't feel the consequences of mistakes because those are all temporary anyway
I would much rather go back 15 minutes than go back a whole cycle, the game already forces plenty of resets if you're playing at a normal pace but now it's just less tedious to replay events
The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.
The number one thing that will keep me from playing a game these days is not being sure if I can make enough progress in what time I have to save that progress.
Save everywhere means I never have to worry. Like -Tal said, it's 2015, every game should let me save anywhere, any time.
I can pause a move whenever I want, I can put down a book whenever I want. Games don't really have an excuse.
If it's a temporary save that is deleted when you load it, then I agree there is basically no excuse not to have something like that if possible for all games. Stuff happens, you may need to put the game down at a moment's notice.
However, I completely and utterly disagree that all games should have a permanent save-anywhere feature. Some games are worse off by having a (permanent) save anywhere feature. Games have different functions and target different audiences, and we shouldn't be mandating that some audiences just don't get games aimed at their interests anymore.
The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.
Never gonna agree with this
Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems
If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game
I think the difference between Majora's Mask and Dead Rising is the fact that Majora's Mask lets you rewind time
There is a conceit in the game that will let you experience everything (at least, I'm assuming so), you'll just have to finagle a bit and do some time warping
Dead Rising is very specifically designed to be impossible to do and get everything on one runthrough of the game, and the fact that your level carries over when you start a new game tells me, "Okay, they designed this game, and subsequently this series, around multiple playthroughs"
I go into a Zelda game with the expectation of "I want to do everything this world has to offer, I want to do a 100% playthrough." In Dead Rising, this is literally impossible to do on your first run. In Majora's Mask, it seemed like it was annoying to do, though this save system sounds like a half-measure in the right direction
EDIT: Not to mention that everything about DR is designed for multiple playthroughs, not just the time limit. You can skip cutscenes! The gameplay is consistent throughout! What you're doing ten minutes into that game is what you're doing twenty hours into it. Whereas Majora's Mask has cutscenes you'd have to sit through every time, dungeons you'd have to repeat, etc.
In my experience limited saving in survival horror just sucks all the tension out of the reload anyway because I know what to expect and what I have to do on the sequence I have to replay
+2
GreasyKidsStuffMOMMM!ROAST BEEF WANTS TO KISS GIRLS ON THE TITTIES!Registered Userregular
I think my next favourite Star Fox game is probably Assault. The multiplayer was pretty fun for a Gamecube title and scratched a bit of the same vehicular combat itch that Halo did (I didn't own an Xbox so I always played at friends houses). It also allowed some fun customization so you could create different game-types. And you could ride on the wing of an Arwing / Wolfen if you were careful. Four-player was pretty good.
The ability for every game to allow saves at any time is independent of whether or not that is actually a good idea for a specific game. Punishing save states is integral to certain types of games. Survival horror that lets you save anywhere, for instance, is bullshit.
Never gonna agree with this
Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems
If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game
The thing that strikes me as artificial is being in a hostile environment and going "okay save" at any given point when that should be limited to times when you have a moment to breathe. Tension is not being safe. You absolutely break it when you can dictate the point you jump back into the game.
Posts
But he's kind of a crazy person so
Call It intentional game design or whatever but static save points are 100% of the time a negative for me
The thing is you can always just play it the old way.
It's like when people complain that a single player game lets you save scum.
Just... don't save scum if you don't want to?
Yeah uh
The new way sounds way better
Sounds like some nostalgia, rose tinted glasses, back in my-day, type of thing.
Like -Tal said the old system was literally done due to memory constraints, not as an intentional design decision.
Microsoft owns Jet Force Gemini.
And I mean, they don't make a handheld so it's not impossible but it'd come to Xbox One way before that.
The new save system sounds better than the old one in every way.
Nah, I get what he means. I prefer the new method from an "enjoying playing this game" standpoint, but he's right that the old system is more interesting. It adds to the overall theme of the game. You can't save-scum your way through. Resetting and trying again is an actual game mechanic and that's kind of neat.
You really don't want to mess up the conveyor belt puzzle not because it's hard and a challenge, but because if you do you're going to have to repeat a half hour of side quest that you just did.
When people say they like Star Fox, they really mean they like Star Fox 64.
When I say I like Star Fox I mean all the Star Fox games because I'm not a liar
Portable games is where making things more flexible makes sense though, so that Majora's Mask setup sounds ideal. At the same time, I like the way the original game handled it and wouldn't have changed anything about it.
I mean I like Star Fox on the SNES, personally. Like, I enjoyed 64 too but the SNES is easily my favorite.
Perfect run being having all of the following done when you go to confront skullkid and end the game.
Saved Romani and escorted Cremia to town. Buy Chateau Romani.
Saved the Zora eggs.
Kafei and Anju reunited.
Saved the man in the music-box house (this might happen automatically if Twin Mold is killed? I don't remember)
Save the dude cursed in the swamp spider house.
I'm probably forgetting something, but basically do all the things that stopping the moon wouldn't fix and create the world state the ending portrays.
I think it was at least the best one since Star Fox 64 (save for the 3DS version of that game).
Get all the masks, save all the fairies?
Obama coming to take your guns.
Good.
Majora's Mask I powered through with a friend over a couple of days if I remember any of it I will be suprised.
Steam
I liked both Majora's Mask and Dead Rising save systems because they force you to experience the progression of time and consequences of mistakes, and because they are designed for replaying the days over and over again.
Unfortunately, that runs against people that want to do the "perfect run" the first time and be able to instantly correct any mistakes by reverting to a recent save.
Ideally, both types of games could exist without one group declaring that the save system is "broken" and must be fixed (instead of simply playing a different game that was designed with them in mind).
That said, I don't really have a problem with the changes to Majora's Mask save system since it's still technically possible to play it the old way (I would have left in the option to save during a reset though), it's on a portable so more lax saving is basically required, and you can still easily buy the original version on virtual console or whatever. Zelda as a whole also has a much wider target audience, and though Majora's Mask has a reputation for being different, opening it up to a bigger audience isn't a bad thing.
I do think in a few months we'll probably be seeing posts around the internet about how new players didn't get as heavily invested in Termina and it's citizens as they had expected from it's reputation, but the save system would only play a part in that occurring (there's also nostalgia/overhype, the new bomber's notebook, and the general shorter attention span that everyone is basically trained to have now a days).
Edit: I was still typing my post when turtleant posted about doing a "perfect run." My comment about that was in no way intended to be calling him out about that, and I was actually thinking more of the players who wanted the best ending in Dead Rising on their first playthrough than Majora's Mask at the time I typed that. Turtleant's use of perfect run is also a different thing than what I was talking about.
Masks carry over from one loop to another. Also I figure the fairies will find their own way home once the monsters are gotten rid of. Also because there's no way in hell you'd be able to fit them in there.
It's really tight, but I'm pretty sure it's doable. You have to do a ton on the first day, as it's the least bogged down with sidequest appointments.
It also runs against people, you want to, you know, sneak in playing a game for a quick 10 minutes.
I don't think this is something every game needs to account for.
Though as I already said, it's understandable when it's being ported to a portable.
I'll gladly wait until I have an hour or two uninterrupted for playing Zelda, or else its not worth it for me.
Save everywhere means I never have to worry. Like -Tal said, it's 2015, every game should let me save anywhere, any time.
I can pause a movie whenever I want, I can put down a book whenever I want. Games don't really have an excuse.
I would much rather go back 15 minutes than go back a whole cycle, the game already forces plenty of resets if you're playing at a normal pace but now it's just less tedious to replay events
If it's a temporary save that is deleted when you load it, then I agree there is basically no excuse not to have something like that if possible for all games. Stuff happens, you may need to put the game down at a moment's notice.
However, I completely and utterly disagree that all games should have a permanent save-anywhere feature. Some games are worse off by having a (permanent) save anywhere feature. Games have different functions and target different audiences, and we shouldn't be mandating that some audiences just don't get games aimed at their interests anymore.
Never gonna agree with this
Its artificial tension, tension from something that is not the actual game and systems
If you can't create the feeling and atmosphere you want without restricting my ability to play the game when I want to, I am much less likely to play your game
There is a conceit in the game that will let you experience everything (at least, I'm assuming so), you'll just have to finagle a bit and do some time warping
Dead Rising is very specifically designed to be impossible to do and get everything on one runthrough of the game, and the fact that your level carries over when you start a new game tells me, "Okay, they designed this game, and subsequently this series, around multiple playthroughs"
I go into a Zelda game with the expectation of "I want to do everything this world has to offer, I want to do a 100% playthrough." In Dead Rising, this is literally impossible to do on your first run. In Majora's Mask, it seemed like it was annoying to do, though this save system sounds like a half-measure in the right direction
EDIT: Not to mention that everything about DR is designed for multiple playthroughs, not just the time limit. You can skip cutscenes! The gameplay is consistent throughout! What you're doing ten minutes into that game is what you're doing twenty hours into it. Whereas Majora's Mask has cutscenes you'd have to sit through every time, dungeons you'd have to repeat, etc.
You like the game as is, that's fine
But claiming that a thing done for convenience is going to ruin tension and atmosphere just seems insane
Also, the music is really good.
The thing that strikes me as artificial is being in a hostile environment and going "okay save" at any given point when that should be limited to times when you have a moment to breathe. Tension is not being safe. You absolutely break it when you can dictate the point you jump back into the game.
I don't think there's one perfect run where you can help everybody and then finish the game
The things that persist between "runs" are your inventory and the money you put in the bank
Everything else resets, but in proper Zelda fashion the equipment you have works as shortcuts to let you skip past the stuff you've already done
Just about every sidequest rewards you with a mask that stays in your inventory