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Vaccination:Clark County Washington, Failing the rest of the state Since Inception

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Posts

  • programjunkieprogramjunkie Registered User regular
    TOGSolid wrote: »
    I think the exemptions are bullshit. If your kids aren't vaccinated, they should not be allowed in public schools, full stop.

    I'd actually take it further and get CPS involved. These people are a danger to society and abusing their kids. They should have their children taken away permanently and be thankful they aren't also getting beaten with claw hammers while they watch their kids get taken away.

    Fucking pricks.

    Yeah. It's child abuse, plain and simple. Anti-vax people are literal baby killers, and they should be given exactly as much respect as anyone else who kills kids by willfully endangering them, which is to say, less than almost all other criminals.
    RT800 wrote: »
    I'm getting visions of physicians showing up at people's houses under armed guard to "vaccinate the children".

    Using actual soldiers to do door to door vaccination "raids," where necessary, to eradicate smallpox is one of the most successful and morally justified undertakings in the entire history of the homo genus. Measles is less serious, but I'm still all for it.

  • TOGSolidTOGSolid Drunk sailor Seattle, WashingtonRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    We protect people from themselves when we are aware they might want to committ suicide. Why do we let people turn their children into potential typhoid marys?

    See thats the thing about letting parents make this decision without an actual valid reason (eg allergy and thats pretty much it) you are effectively saying letting them spread illness to others is a constitutional right and I don't think it should be.

    Yeah, I'm pretty sure you lose your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness when you turn your children into public health hazards and are essentially willfully killing other people via your own incompetence.

    wWuzwvJ.png
  • DrLoserForHireXDrLoserForHireX Philosopher King The AcademyRegistered User regular
    edited January 2015
    Edited out

    DrLoserForHireX on
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
    "We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    jmcdonald wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    Acupuncture has some medical purposes once you remove the mystic hoodoo from it.

    Chiropracty is pure weapons grade bullshitium though. Not shocked or surprised to see anti-vaxers leaning towards it as a valid medical..anything.

    The massage part of chiropractery is true, the rest of the claims of aligning your chakras to cure cancer and diseases though is utter bullshit.

    Chiropractic care is literally a scam on the first and third party insurance industry. Nothing more.

    Wouldn't shock me, recently there was a group that came to my work to give out free massages, at the end of the massage they wanted to sign you up for another longer massage after their Chiro clinic checked your insurance and did some "tests" to identify what was wrong.

    "Rational chiropractic" has emerged as a subfield in the last 20 or so years as a way of applying objective medicine to chiropractic care. They reject the vitalism of traditional chiropractic and are basically somewhere between physical therapists and sports medicine doctors.
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Chiropractic is either: utter nonsense or a way to avoid the requirements to qualify as actual massage therapists and related health professionals, depending on the chiropractor.

    I'm not sure if things are different in your country, but in the US, massage therapists aren't really any more "health professionals" than acupuncturists or naturopaths. The requirements to be a massage therapist differ from state to state, but I don't know any US state that requires massage therapists to receive any particular education in objective medicine, and plenty of massage therapists believe in reiki and other mystical bullshit.

    Drat. I meant physical therapy/ists.

    Oh! Then yes! :)

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Paladin wrote: »
    Quid wrote: »
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    Acupuncture has some medical purposes once you remove the mystic hoodoo from it.

    Nope nope nope nope.

    Acupuncture is identical to any other placebo and its medical effects end there.

    Placebos have medical purposes

    I liked their cover of Running Up That Hill, but I dunno if I would consider is a medical effect.

    The real question is whether the Placebo group is more efficacious in controlled studies than the Kate Bush group.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    What irritates me about this sort of thing is that this whole thing gets in the way of actual research being done.

    There are a LOT of problems in the medical industry, from manufacturers buying off politicians and doctors to help push their product, to really stupid mistakes like doing all testing on a narrow population. Some people do have adverse reactions to things that the vast, vast majority of the population does not, and it's worthwhile to do some research to predict who might be thus affected.

    "Let's do more tests" is just so much more helpful than "Let's come to a conclusion and defend it forever." Funding additional studies would be so much more helpful than turning Disney into a biohazard.

  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Every time I run into an anti vaxxer who actually believes in the crazy and isn't just on the bandwagon (you can tell) I pull out the ol'e House M.D. example. Like I think from the third episode in the first season.
    All natural, no dyes. That's a good business - all-natural children's toys. Those toy companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie about how much they spend on research and development. And the worst that a toy company can be accused of is making a really boring frog. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green, fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for six months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop *really* fast. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

  • JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    We protect people from themselves when we are aware they might want to committ suicide. Why do we let people turn their children into potential typhoid marys?

    Then again we let people refuse any and all medical treatment they don't want, even if they might die. And arguably euthanasia should be allowed.

    Clearly that something might be dangerous is not the sole reason for deciding whether or not to force someone to get health care.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    I know too many people who have had improved uterine blood flow (as confirmed by sonograms) while undergoing accupuncture to believe it has no effect.

    It is indeed every bit as effective as any other placebo.

  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Julius wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    We protect people from themselves when we are aware they might want to committ suicide. Why do we let people turn their children into potential typhoid marys?

    Then again we let people refuse any and all medical treatment they don't want, even if they might die. And arguably euthanasia should be allowed.

    Clearly that something might be dangerous is not the sole reason for deciding whether or not to force someone to get health care.

    Someone's chronic case of old age isn't going to infect and kill a newborn, and unless they're a Tasmanian devil their cancer isn't going to spread either*. Not vaccinating your kids, as others have pointed out, isn't about personal choice. It's about societal good. A parent who says "I won't vaccinate my kids" is also implicitly saying, "I have the right to murder other people's children too. Your baby was just born and is too young to get vaccinated? Your child would have had a deadly allergic reaction? Too fucking bad. I have the right to kill that kid." A lot of the preventable deaths have been exactly that - babies whose parents likely would have gotten them vaccinated, had they actually been able to live that long, if someone else hadn't been supremely selfish.


    * And when you get down to it, if a kid has cancer and the parents won't treat it because durpaderp, society usually goes "to hell with your religious exemption" and makes the kid get treatment. Yet we won't do this when whatever potentially fatal thing the kid gets can spread to other people's kids as well.

  • Magus`Magus` The fun has been DOUBLED! Registered User regular
    Has anyone been prosecuted for the deaths of other people's children via their children's disease spreading? If not manslaughter, it still strikes me as criminal negligence.

  • Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    "Not vaccinating my kids" is a personal statement akin to "I take my children drinking and driving on a regular basis."

    CPS needs to be removing those children from their abusive homes.

    ygPIJ.gif
    Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Magus` wrote: »
    Has anyone been prosecuted for the deaths of other people's children via their children's disease spreading? If not manslaughter, it still strikes me as criminal negligence.

    It'd be problematic/impossible to prove, I think.

    What is this I don't even.
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    There are two kinds of anti-vaxxers: The first kind are fearful paranoids who think big pharma is out to get them.

    The second kind have done a ruthless and intensely selfish calculation where they look at the complications of vaccinations (which is a number that is not zero) and herd immunity and then say "If everyone else gets vaccines for their kids then I don't need to, I can get the benefit without the complication risk".

    And their math would be correct if only for the fact that they aren't accounting for the fact that there are just too many selfish assholes like them to keep herd immunity intact.

    It's unsurprising that so many anti-vaxxers are not uneducated poors. These are the selfish ones, not the paranoids.

    The only solution is to take their precious freedom to choose away, or wait until things get bad enough and herd immunity tanks and they are forced to adjust their equation. In order for the latter to happen, things will have long since passed "dire" for the actual at-risk "can't get vaccines for various reasons" group.

  • Alistair HuttonAlistair Hutton Dr EdinburghRegistered User regular
    Quid wrote: »
    I know too many people who have had improved uterine blood flow (as confirmed by sonograms) while undergoing accupuncture to believe it has no effect.

    It is indeed every bit as effective as any other placebo.

    If I have time I will dig out the study that showed that sham acupuncture was more effective than actual acupuncture for pain relief when structured so that the sham acupuncture was delivered with a whole pile of mystic mumbo-jumbo and the actual acupuncture was delivered in a detached clinical manner.

    I have a thoughtful and infrequently updated blog about games http://whatithinkaboutwhenithinkaboutgames.wordpress.com/

    I made a game, it has penguins in it. It's pay what you like on Gumroad.

    Currently Ebaying Nothing at all but I might do in the future.
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    I think the exemptions are bullshit. If your kids aren't vaccinated, they should not be allowed in public schools, full stop.

    I think religious exemptions are bullshit, but there will ALWAYS have to be medical exemptions. My toddler is anaphylactic to eggs and cannot be given the flu vaccine because of it(she gets all her other vaccines). But some kids are allergic to other ingredients in vaccines and simply can't be given them, not just the flu vaccine but the other scheduled ones. So you can't just say "no exemptions."

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    There are two kinds of anti-vaxxers: The first kind are fearful paranoids who think big pharma is out to get them.

    The second kind have done a ruthless and intensely selfish calculation where they look at the complications of vaccinations (which is a number that is not zero) and herd immunity and then say "If everyone else gets vaccines for their kids then I don't need to, I can get the benefit without the complication risk".

    And their math would be correct if only for the fact that they aren't accounting for the fact that there are just too many selfish assholes like them to keep herd immunity intact.

    It's unsurprising that so many anti-vaxxers are not uneducated poors. These are the selfish ones, not the paranoids.

    The only solution is to take their precious freedom to choose away, or wait until things get bad enough and herd immunity tanks and they are forced to adjust their equation. In order for the latter to happen, things will have long since passed "dire" for the actual at-risk "can't get vaccines for various reasons" group.

    Hey, a collective action problem, the sort we use government regulation to counter!

    What is this I don't even.
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    I think the exemptions are bullshit. If your kids aren't vaccinated, they should not be allowed in public schools, full stop.

    I think religious exemptions are bullshit, but there will ALWAYS have to be medical exemptions. My toddler is anaphylactic to eggs and cannot be given the flu vaccine because of it(she gets all her other vaccines). But some kids are allergic to other ingredients in vaccines and simply can't be given them, not just the flu vaccine but the other scheduled ones. So you can't just say "no exemptions."

    They actually have flu vaccines without eggs now. But yes allergy is a valid reason for your kid not being immunized, and all the more reason kids without allergy should get immunized to protect those who can't.

    What is sad is that both side of the aisle like to blame the other for the anti vaxxers but this is one of those universal idiocy's from the fringe of both. They come at it from different directions but they both arrive at the same dumb place.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited January 2015
    Julius wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    We protect people from themselves when we are aware they might want to committ suicide. Why do we let people turn their children into potential typhoid marys?

    Then again we let people refuse any and all medical treatment they don't want, even if they might die. And arguably euthanasia should be allowed.

    Clearly that something might be dangerous is not the sole reason for deciding whether or not to force someone to get health care.

    Yet we don't let Ebola patients wander around downtown either. There is obviously a line even if where it is exactly isn't clear.

    Edit: As well one component of allowed self harm is recognized adulthood.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • JuliusJulius Captain of Serenity on my shipRegistered User regular
    Julius wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    We protect people from themselves when we are aware they might want to committ suicide. Why do we let people turn their children into potential typhoid marys?

    Then again we let people refuse any and all medical treatment they don't want, even if they might die. And arguably euthanasia should be allowed.

    Clearly that something might be dangerous is not the sole reason for deciding whether or not to force someone to get health care.

    Yet we don't let Ebola patients wander around downtown either. There is obviously a line even if where it is exactly isn't clear.

    I agree. I'm just pointing out that this isn't as simple an issue as some people are making it out to be.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Joshmvii wrote: »
    I think the exemptions are bullshit. If your kids aren't vaccinated, they should not be allowed in public schools, full stop.

    I think religious exemptions are bullshit, but there will ALWAYS have to be medical exemptions. My toddler is anaphylactic to eggs and cannot be given the flu vaccine because of it(she gets all her other vaccines). But some kids are allergic to other ingredients in vaccines and simply can't be given them, not just the flu vaccine but the other scheduled ones. So you can't just say "no exemptions."

    They actually have flu vaccines without eggs now. But yes allergy is a valid reason for your kid not being immunized, and all the more reason kids without allergy should get immunized to protect those who can't.

    What is sad is that both side of the aisle like to blame the other for the anti vaxxers but this is one of those universal idiocy's from the fringe of both. They come at it from different directions but they both arrive at the same dumb place.

    As far as I know they don't have an egg free flu vaccine that can be given to a child as young as my daughter. I think there's an inhaled vaccine but it's only for age 18+ or something like that. If there's an egg free option for my 20 month old my pediatrician didn't know about it.

    This issue hits close to me because my sister is a dipshit anti-vaxxer, and now my 2 nieces and my nephew don't get what they need. For a while every time she posted some dumb shit about a girl in Wisconsin dying after getting the HPV vaccine I'd remind her of the thousands of women per year who die of cervical cancer, and tell her hopefully one of my nieces isn't in that statistic later in life because of her terrible decisions. I barely speak to my sister any more because she pisses me off so much with this stuff.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    I'm not aware of age limits on the egg free one, but that's also because I don't have the allergy so you probably know more than I do. I am allergic to moxxicillin though, which I make sure to tell every doctor when I'm going in for any procedure so as to not invoke the response that almost killed me as a child.

    So as a parent would you keep your children away from a parent who doesn't vaxx? I would figure as painful as it would be for your kid you'd have to, maybe explain it to the kid why and hope they don't ignore you because they are children?

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Stepped in it Registered User regular
    I know too many people who have had improved uterine blood flow (as confirmed by sonograms) while undergoing accupuncture to believe it has no effect.
    Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User, Transition Team regular
    I know too many people who have had improved uterine blood flow (as confirmed by sonograms) while undergoing accupuncture to believe it has no effect.

    The placebo effect is insane. If it wasn't so well documented you'd think it was utter fiction. It's harder to believe sometimes than the anti-vax argument and is actually real.

    I absolutely believe that uterine blood flow could increase entirely due to the placebo effect.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User, Transition Team regular
    edited January 2015
    Fucking placebos work sometimes even when you know they are a placebo.

    It's madness.

    spool32 on
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    Magus` wrote: »
    Has anyone been prosecuted for the deaths of other people's children via their children's disease spreading? If not manslaughter, it still strikes me as criminal negligence.

    It'd be problematic/impossible to prove, I think.

    However parents have been prosecuted for withholding necessary medical care. (See: faith healing communities not taking kids to doctor for infections, etc)

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    So you're saying if you wanted to get into law, medical torts are about to become huge?

    And the best part the idiots not vaccinating actually have money and the ones they harm are most likely going to be poor people. That's a win win law suit!

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • Dug DangerDug Danger Registered User regular
    A big example I got from the antivax lady I knew was that a child of a friend was dosed almost double the normal amount of the mmr vaccine and ended up having seizures.

    Now that is awful. But doesn't point to a properly dosed vaccine being harmful. It obviously points to negligence and incompetance in their care provider. But things like that get used to push the movement as well. Ugh

    XBL-Dug Danger WiiU-DugDanger Steam-http://steamcommunity.com/id/DugDanger/
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Honestly any anecdotal "horror" stories I hear about vaccines I immediately distrust. Because the movement thrives on these "friend of a friend" tales of doctors fucking up and while I'm sure it happens, I just don't believe the nutters know someone directly hurt by a vaccine.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Honestly any anecdotal "horror" stories I hear about vaccines I immediately distrust. Because the movement thrives on these "friend of a friend" tales of doctors fucking up and while I'm sure it happens, I just don't believe the nutters know someone directly hurt by a vaccine.

    I've heard more than a couple "oh the baby was just different after their vaccine" stories

    One from someone with autistic kids in their family.

  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    He's right, though, it's really not fair to call it child murder.

    They don't care. They're just willfully negligent.

    It's child manslaughter.

    Kidslaughter

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    There is no further proof that you have to tell these morons than "you were worried about Thimiserol (sp?) they took that shit out, so you went on to some other dumb fucking thing."

    They don't know what causes autism, but they sure as fuck have no proof its vaccines.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Its a confirmation biases since the obvious outward signs of autism happen around the time you're getting your last round of vaccines

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Assuming it hasn't been debunked, has there been any link made between the "vaccines made my baby autistic" thing and the recent links suggested between gut bacteria and mental function?

  • Johnny ChopsockyJohnny Chopsocky Scootaloo! We have to cook! Grillin' HaysenburgersRegistered User regular
    What really irks me to the absolute fucking core is how anti-vaxxers continuously act like autism is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to their child. It's a horrifying sentiment.

    ygPIJ.gif
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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    What really irks me to the absolute fucking core is how anti-vaxxers continuously act like autism is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to their child. It's a horrifying sentiment.

    Its because they'd rather have a dead child then one they have to take care of for the rest of their life, without remembering that not all diseases kill you. Hello polio or scarlet fever!

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    The whole "why parents want kids" thing is a whooole thread.

  • fortisfortis OhioRegistered User regular
    Geeks!

    Do you think it should be your right to treat your child how you choose? See no reason why it's any body else's business what you do to your child? Play with this.

    It is simplistic but even a little bit of fiddling will quickly let you come to understand why Herd Immunity is the fucking bomb and how it's all our responsibility to be vaccinated. In much the same way it is all our responsibility to not have shit on our hands spreading infection everywhere. You wouldn't think it's your right to have your child wander around with shitty hands so why do you think they get to spread germs by other means?

    More involved little example thing here that gets into some other related topics.

    I just want to say, that beyond this being a fantastic site, his voice at 5:08 had me literally laughing out loud.

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