The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
Please vote in the Forum Structure Poll. Polling will close at 2PM EST on January 21, 2025.
Militia takes over Federal Build in Oregon: America continues to America
I'm not really sure that Obama wants to follow in Clinton's footsteps on this one, and I find it upsetting that people are even jokingly advocating for another Waco or Ruby Ridge.
While I wouldn't want to see bloodshed, there comes a point where if you declare yourself in rebellion from the United States, take up arms, and seize federal property, you should be dealt with like the traitors you are. If these people were four shades tanner and had vaguely ethnic names, there would be no end of the calls to deploy the National Guard on them. This is sedition and terrorism full stop, and if they haven't peacefully vacated the building they have claimed by the time the staff shows up to work on their normal schedule, they deserve to be apprehended if possible, but I will take no issue with ending such actions with force if necessary.
I'm not really sure that Obama wants to follow in Clinton's footsteps on this one, and I find it upsetting that people are even jokingly advocating for another Waco or Ruby Ridge.
While I wouldn't want to see bloodshed, there comes a point where if you declare yourself in rebellion from the United States, take up arms, and seize federal property, you should be dealt with like the traitors you are. If these people were four shades tanner and had vaguely ethnic names, there would be no end of the calls to deploy the National Guard on them. This is sedition and terrorism full stop, and if they haven't peacefully vacated the building they have claimed by the time the staff shows up to work on their normal schedule, they deserve to be apprehended if possible, but I will take no issue with ending such actions with force if necessary.
Hell, we've basically got one of them saying that he's ready to be martyred for the cause. Imagine if they were Islamic.
I am absolutely 100% behind the concept of due process to get this taken care of right. But these guys should get the book thrown at them. The National Guard should be used to make sure the situation doesn't get out of hand, but de-escalation should be the name of the game (followed by arrest). They don't comply? Cut utilities, put the cell towers into police mode, and starve them out.
What kills me is what they're deciding to make a stand over. Guys who plead guilty to setting forest fires near actively-working firemen to cover up evidence of illegal hunting. What a place to circle the wagons.
Quite frankly this kind of nonsense is long past the point where it needs to be put down as emphatically as possible; I'd suggest an offer of peaceful surrender leading to leniency during sentencing followed by a waco style siege.
I give them a week before their morale crumbles and they give in.
Quite frankly this kind of nonsense is long past the point where it needs to be put down as emphatically as possible; I'd suggest an offer of peaceful surrender leading to leniency during sentencing followed by a waco style siege.
I give them a week before their morale crumbles and they give in.
Are you talking about this thread? Because if so, I agree.
Quite frankly this kind of nonsense is long past the point where it needs to be put down as emphatically as possible; I'd suggest an offer of peaceful surrender leading to leniency during sentencing followed by a waco style siege.
I give them a week before their morale crumbles and they give in.
Are you talking about this thread? Because if so, I agree.
What are you basing this fortitude of will on? The ample food stores in the visitors center? The idea that these people are actually willing to stick it out when they realize the police aren't going to let them get away with this?
Like, they're real brave breaking into what ammounts to being an oversized rangers office when no ones around, but do you really think they're going to want to camp out for an extended period of time when it becomes clear that they aren't going to win this one?
Usually when it comes to the internet I use the phrase "I wish I could be surprised" but I actually am surprised at the bloodthirst presented in this thread.
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
Usually when it comes to the internet I use the phrase "I wish I could be surprised" but I actually am surprised at the bloodthirst presented in this thread.
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
I proposed a siege; effectively surrounding them so that they can't get away or resupply and waiting for them to surrender.
Quite frankly this kind of nonsense is long past the point where it needs to be put down as emphatically as possible; I'd suggest an offer of peaceful surrender leading to leniency during sentencing followed by a waco style siege.
I give them a week before their morale crumbles and they give in.
Are you talking about this thread? Because if so, I agree.
What are you basing this fortitude of will on? The ample food stores in the visitors center? The idea that these people are actually willing to stick it out when they realize the police aren't going to let them get away with this?
Like, they're real brave breaking into what ammounts to being an oversized rangers office when no ones around, but do you really think they're going to want to camp out for an extended period of time when it becomes clear that they aren't going to win this one?
No, I'm saying that this thread needs to be put down as emphatically as possible, I suggest an offer of peaceful surrender leading to leniency during sentencing followed by a Waco style siege. I give it a week before it's morale crumbles.
I don't see why anyone should be surprised that people are extremely angry that the US government is consistently surrendering it's sovereignty to armed right-wing militias out of fear of their political backers and the media making it into a scandal to enforce the law of the nation.
There's, like, at least 3 things I can think of there that should piss anyone right the fuck off.
Usually when it comes to the internet I use the phrase "I wish I could be surprised" but I actually am surprised at the bloodthirst presented in this thread.
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
I'm not surprised at the bloodthirst to be honest. Especially not when it involves conservatives or Republicans. Standards seem to go out of the window as soon as it involves the "enemy".
Usually when it comes to the internet I use the phrase "I wish I could be surprised" but I actually am surprised at the bloodthirst presented in this thread.
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
I'm not surprised at the bloodthirst to be honest. Especially not when it involves conservatives or Republicans. Standards seem to go out of the window as soon as it involves the "enemy".
Bloordthirst?
Man, there's like 1, maybe 2 posters max in this thread calling for anything beyond mass arrest and/or starve them out.
This seems less like a reaction to bloodthirst and more like some handwringy attempt to smear a bunch of posters on this forum as hypocrites based on the comments of only a few people. One of whom is actually a conservative.
Like, there's more posters on this page dropping silly strawmen then there are people calling for anything but starving them out.
I think the anger for me at least stems from the fact that people think this is in any way okay, that these people need to be coddled and dealt with politely when they are turning their back on the entire country and flaunting it.
Armed terrorists and traitors. Just doing whatever the fuck they want.
I can't hang with that. The sooner someone is made an example of in the most efficient and stark way possible, the happier I'd be.
Jail won't do anything to them. They'll be some redneck heroes in the local pen and learn nothing except they'll probably recruit more people to their cause while in there. Because of course they'll get like six months and probation.
But hey you know, even these wackjobs finally shoot up some unamerican religious places or something I'm sure we'll just be super shocked that some home grown terrorists just showed up out of nowhere. Never saw it coming!
Usually when it comes to the internet I use the phrase "I wish I could be surprised" but I actually am surprised at the bloodthirst presented in this thread.
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
I'm not surprised at the bloodthirst to be honest. Especially not when it involves conservatives or Republicans. Standards seem to go out of the window as soon as it involves the "enemy".
Bloordthirst?
Man, there's like 1, maybe 2 posters max in this thread calling for anything beyond mass arrest and/or starve them out.
This seems less like a reaction to bloodthirst and more like some handwringy attempt to smear a bunch of posters on this forum as hypocrites based on the comments of only a few people. One of whom is actually a conservative.
It's not just this thread and not just this subject. I have seen with regularity how conservatives and Republicans are deemed acceptable targets that deserve for bad things to happen to them solely because of what they believe, not what they've done. Cases of "I'm not supporting violence but I really want to see this person get hurt", "I'm not condoning it but if someone's rear window was broken to remove a Trump sticker", and just the sheer vitriol those who DO identify as conservative receive.
There is a very clear hostility that I have seen time and time again.
Usually when it comes to the internet I use the phrase "I wish I could be surprised" but I actually am surprised at the bloodthirst presented in this thread.
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
I'm not surprised at the bloodthirst to be honest. Especially not when it involves conservatives or Republicans. Standards seem to go out of the window as soon as it involves the "enemy".
This isn't a mere political disagreement, they are in military uniforms with rifles illegally occupying federal property and fomenting sedition against the federal government while claiming they may use violence to resist legitimate law enforcement trying to resolve the situation.
Law enforcement should use the minimum force necessary to end the situation immediately, but they should end it immediately, and not play games. This situation right now is a result of the federal government being intimidated by a bunch of pilfering shitkickers. Weakness invites attack, this is a natural and inevitable result of them caving in to seditionists in the past.
Usually when it comes to the internet I use the phrase "I wish I could be surprised" but I actually am surprised at the bloodthirst presented in this thread.
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
I'm not surprised at the bloodthirst to be honest. Especially not when it involves conservatives or Republicans. Standards seem to go out of the window as soon as it involves the "enemy".
This isn't a mere political disagreement, they are in military uniforms with rifles illegally occupying federal property and fomenting sedition against the federal government while claiming they may use violence to resist legitimate law enforcement trying to resolve the situation.
Law enforcement should use the minimum force necessary to end the situation immediately, but they should end it immediately, and not play games. This situation right now is a result of the federal government being intimidated by a bunch of pilfering shitkickers. Weakness invites attack, this is a natural and inevitable result of them caving in to seditionists in the past.
And I agree, they do need to bring an end to this in a lawful and decisive manner. Not obliterating the building as a first and only response. The fact that someone actually publicly suggested that as a legitimate desire is baffling and concerning.
Is it crazy to think that maybe Ruby Ridge is why we have this kind of thing going on now? I mean, when the government kills a mans family, and he survives a siege against the federal government and later successfully sues that government for killing his family, it might create some level of fear of the government from people in his community. There was no case against this guy, but his whole family was murdered. From my perspective, that incident created a justifiable fear for certain communities that the government is out to get them, and that they need to be opposed to it.
So when I see people advocating another Waco or Ruby Ridge, I'm deeply disturbed. I have a strong dislike of sovereign citizens. But I don't think killing a few of them in a massacre is likely to do anything but grow their movement. Their entire mythos about the world is that they live under an oppressive government that takes away peoples rights or kills them without justification. If a bunch of them get killed for doing what hippies did a few decades ago, minus the guns, it's only going to add to that mythos.
To put my thoughts into context: I live in Arizona. Near Scottsdale. A fairly rich area. Generally upper education folk.
I still heard at least twice tonight about patriots and how the military won't do anything because they don't follow 'Nobama'
... Like legit, these are people driving god damn BMWs with college degree saying this shit. Not Tommy the redneck.
I'd rather this be dealt with, because there are a lot of well armed crazy people in this state I'd rather not have getting creative and swearing fealty to fucking sheriff Joe.
Usually when it comes to the internet I use the phrase "I wish I could be surprised" but I actually am surprised at the bloodthirst presented in this thread.
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
I'm not surprised at the bloodthirst to be honest. Especially not when it involves conservatives or Republicans. Standards seem to go out of the window as soon as it involves the "enemy".
Bloordthirst?
Man, there's like 1, maybe 2 posters max in this thread calling for anything beyond mass arrest and/or starve them out.
This seems less like a reaction to bloodthirst and more like some handwringy attempt to smear a bunch of posters on this forum as hypocrites based on the comments of only a few people. One of whom is actually a conservative.
It's not just this thread and not just this subject. I have seen with regularity how conservatives and Republicans are deemed acceptable targets that deserve for bad things to happen to them solely because of what they believe, not what they've done. Cases of "I'm not supporting violence but I really want to see this person get hurt", "I'm not condoning it but if someone's rear window was broken to remove a Trump sticker", and just the sheer vitriol those who DO identify as conservative receive.
There is a very clear hostility that I have seen time and time again.
So basically this is nothing to do with the topic of the thread or the comments in it but instead is just you looking for a platform to whinge about some perceived level of victimhood of no shown source? Lovely.
Look dude, even the few people here calling for more extreme reactions to this situation them arrest aren't doing it because these militia nutters are conservatives. So your complaints just don't hold any water.
+28
Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
edited January 2016
They need to be given a portable DVD player and a copy of this movie ASAP. No guns or violence, just psychology:
Is it crazy to think that maybe Ruby Ridge is why we have this kind of thing going on now? I mean, when the government kills a mans family, and he survives a siege against the federal government and later successfully sues that government for killing his family, it might create some level of fear of the government from people in his community. There was no case against this guy, but his whole family was murdered. From my perspective, that incident created a justifiable fear for certain communities that the government is out to get them, and that they need to be opposed to it.
So when I see people advocating another Waco or Ruby Ridge, I'm deeply disturbed. I have a strong dislike of sovereign citizens. But I don't think killing a few of them in a massacre is likely to do anything but grow their movement. Their entire mythos about the world is that they live under an oppressive government that takes away peoples rights or kills them without justification. If a bunch of them get killed for doing what hippies did a few decades ago, minus the guns, it's only going to add to that mythos.
And giving in will also grow their movement because 'you can win!'
There isn't really a simple win scenario here.
Also Ruby ridge and Waco aren't exactly equivocal in terms of what was happening. The screw ups were awful in both cases but Waco wasnt really ending in any way that wasn't awful.
Furthermore that's why you bring in the military. None of this police crap or anything. You make it clear that they are traitors to the country and to the soldiers that these people typically idolize.
Because for some reason they hold the military in some alternate section compared to the rest of the big bad government.
Like whatever happens to them needs to be permanent though. I don't care if it's life without parole in the deep south prison system or some military solitary cells. I just want it handled as a federal/military matter and not some halfassed state solution.
I think the military is the most likely organization to have a bunch of Oathkeepers that might break ranks and join up with them. Especially the national guard. Even if that wasn't the case I think its bad optics. I don't know what the best way to resolve this situation is, but I'm skeptical that any kind of violent resolution is going to look like a good idea after the fact.
I think the military is the most likely organization to have a bunch of Oathkeepers that might break ranks and join up with them. Especially the national guard. Even if that wasn't the case I think its bad optics. I don't know what the best way to resolve this situation is, but I'm skeptical that any kind of violent resolution is going to look like a good idea after the fact.
It'd take some serious underhandednesess by the gov't to provoke desertion like that amongst the ranks. Not least of which, because the type of actions you speak of carry harsh penalties. Like, a member of the armed forces turning against the government and directly acting against it is basically treason.
I'm not really sure that Obama wants to follow in Clinton's footsteps on this one, and I find it upsetting that people are even jokingly advocating for another Waco or Ruby Ridge.
Unfortunately there are lines the government has to cross or it starts to look weak, it's because of the lack of action on Bundy that this happened and I don't want this to become a new hobby for American militia terrorists. The last thing we need is for actions like Bundy and this to become part of American lifestyle, or being supported by elected politicians in the media - which happened with the former. It's a good thing to want the government to put down domestic terrorists and traitors, and it's lucky that they don't have any hostages. Then there's the double standard - do you seriously think if ISIS or Al Quada had done this the media would be talking about this as a "peaceful protest" and the government wouldn't be sending in the FBI/military to clamp down on them with the full weight of the US government? I don't.
If those types of people are in the armed forces all the better to fish them out anyway. They have no business serving in the military if they don't support the country they are serving under.
Wouldn't a better way to put this whole thing be "dudes isolate themselves in the middle of nowhere, do nothing, achieve nothing"?
No, because there wouldn't be consequences for breaking the law - all that'd prove to like-minded individuals that they too can be terrorists and won't get sent to Gitmo for it. The government can't ignore terrorists who break the law on their soil, it has a duty to protect all of us (it'd be a matter of time before someone was hurt or killed by these assholes), as well as maintaining a monopoly on political power. And y'know, punishing traitors.
I'm not really sure that Obama wants to follow in Clinton's footsteps on this one, and I find it upsetting that people are even jokingly advocating for another Waco or Ruby Ridge.
Unfortunately there are lines the government has to cross or it starts to look weak, it's because of the lack of action on Bundy that this happened and I don't want this to become a new hobby for American militia terrorists. The last thing we need is for actions like Bundy and this to become part of American lifestyle, or being supported by elected politicians in the media - which happened with the former. It's a good thing to want the government to put down domestic terrorists and traitors, and it's lucky that they don't have any hostages. Then there's the double standard - do you seriously think if ISIS or Al Quada had done this the media would be talking about this as a "peaceful protest" and the government wouldn't be sending in the FBI/military to clamp down on them with the full weight of the US government? I don't.
Thing is, these fuckers are American citizens on American land, and probably shouldn't have a Reaper drone drop a missle on their heads. Ideally, a peaceful surrender followed by the full extent of the law should be the resolution
Usually when it comes to the internet I use the phrase "I wish I could be surprised" but I actually am surprised at the bloodthirst presented in this thread.
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
I'm not surprised at the bloodthirst to be honest. Especially not when it involves conservatives or Republicans. Standards seem to go out of the window as soon as it involves the "enemy".
These terrorists could be left wing hippies who believe in everything I do, and my option wouldn't change one iota. This isn't about political ideology, it's about terrorism. And if you think conservatives/right wing wouldn't be baying for blood if this was arabs from the Middle East doing this in the name of ISIS I wouldn't believe you. Two word: Fox News. Another thing in this is that these people are literally traitors, which Fox News are happy to support when it's guys like Cliven Bundy. Not all conservatives or Republicans are bad, hell I'm friends with them even if I don't agree with their beliefs.
I think the military is the most likely organization to have a bunch of Oathkeepers that might break ranks and join up with them. Especially the national guard. Even if that wasn't the case I think its bad optics. I don't know what the best way to resolve this situation is, but I'm skeptical that any kind of violent resolution is going to look like a good idea after the fact.
The police have Oath Keepers too, and if the Oath Keepers have compromised the military that much the American government has bigger problems then these idiots.
I should clarify, since it maybe looked like I was bloodthirstier than I am: I don't think the government should jump straight to drone striking this place, that would be nuts. A less violent outcome is preferable, as long as that less violent outcome isn't "The U.S. government surrenders sovereignty to domestic terrorists. Again."
If it's that or the drone strike? Fuck 'em.
But realistically as long as the government commits to a siege and arrests them when they break, that should be the whole thing, without any violence.
It looks like the least bad option is to siege them out, arrest, and prosecute.
Yes, if they were brown people the building would have been flattened with them in it by now, but that kind of response is usually predicated on an immediate threat to life that doesn't seem to be present here.
Plus, it really looks like some kind of martyrdom is what they're going for, so it makes sense to try to deny them that unless forced (i.e. they start shooting at people or something).
I'm not really sure that Obama wants to follow in Clinton's footsteps on this one, and I find it upsetting that people are even jokingly advocating for another Waco or Ruby Ridge.
Unfortunately there are lines the government has to cross or it starts to look weak, it's because of the lack of action on Bundy that this happened and I don't want this to become a new hobby for American militia terrorists. The last thing we need is for actions like Bundy and this to become part of American lifestyle, or being supported by elected politicians in the media - which happened with the former. It's a good thing to want the government to put down domestic terrorists and traitors, and it's lucky that they don't have any hostages. Then there's the double standard - do you seriously think if ISIS or Al Quada had done this the media would be talking about this as a "peaceful protest" and the government wouldn't be sending in the FBI/military to clamp down on them with the full weight of the US government? I don't.
Thing is, these fuckers are American citizens on American land, and probably shouldn't have a Reaper drone drop a missle on their heads. Ideally, a peaceful surrender followed by the full extent of the law should be the resolution
Sure. I'm ok with sieging them (cutting power/wait them out), but they shouldn't get away with this scott free. Once captured they need to have the book thrown at them. Terrorism should not be tolerated.
I think the military is the most likely organization to have a bunch of Oathkeepers that might break ranks and join up with them. Especially the national guard. Even if that wasn't the case I think its bad optics. I don't know what the best way to resolve this situation is, but I'm skeptical that any kind of violent resolution is going to look like a good idea after the fact.
The police have Oath Keepers too, and if the Oath Keepers have compromised the military that much the American government has bigger problems then these idiots.
What kind of people join the military? A simple answer is people that like guns/war. A lot of those people join the military, and then radically change their opinion of the government after becoming part of it, either because of their experience with it or exposure to new information. Timothy McVeigh for example served in the military before he bombed Oklahoma city.
At this point, they're a dozen or less hillbillies with delusions of grandeur. The most dangerous thing they can become is martyrs. This situation has me concerned because I live in the Pacific North West, and we've got a bad history of having White Seperartists and other shitchunks in these states.
If they rally around these guys, things could get ugly.
Posts
But definitely in the sense of conspiracy-minded, anti-government crackpottery.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
While I wouldn't want to see bloodshed, there comes a point where if you declare yourself in rebellion from the United States, take up arms, and seize federal property, you should be dealt with like the traitors you are. If these people were four shades tanner and had vaguely ethnic names, there would be no end of the calls to deploy the National Guard on them. This is sedition and terrorism full stop, and if they haven't peacefully vacated the building they have claimed by the time the staff shows up to work on their normal schedule, they deserve to be apprehended if possible, but I will take no issue with ending such actions with force if necessary.
Hell, we've basically got one of them saying that he's ready to be martyred for the cause. Imagine if they were Islamic.
I am absolutely 100% behind the concept of due process to get this taken care of right. But these guys should get the book thrown at them. The National Guard should be used to make sure the situation doesn't get out of hand, but de-escalation should be the name of the game (followed by arrest). They don't comply? Cut utilities, put the cell towers into police mode, and starve them out.
What kills me is what they're deciding to make a stand over. Guys who plead guilty to setting forest fires near actively-working firemen to cover up evidence of illegal hunting. What a place to circle the wagons.
I give them a week before their morale crumbles and they give in.
What are you basing this fortitude of will on? The ample food stores in the visitors center? The idea that these people are actually willing to stick it out when they realize the police aren't going to let them get away with this?
Like, they're real brave breaking into what ammounts to being an oversized rangers office when no ones around, but do you really think they're going to want to camp out for an extended period of time when it becomes clear that they aren't going to win this one?
I mean, if you're going to advocate a military assault on what appears to be a park visitor's center, I really can't think of a better way to describe it.
And I always considered you guys a bunch of hippies, jesus.
I proposed a siege; effectively surrounding them so that they can't get away or resupply and waiting for them to surrender.
There's, like, at least 3 things I can think of there that should piss anyone right the fuck off.
I'm not surprised at the bloodthirst to be honest. Especially not when it involves conservatives or Republicans. Standards seem to go out of the window as soon as it involves the "enemy".
Bloordthirst?
Man, there's like 1, maybe 2 posters max in this thread calling for anything beyond mass arrest and/or starve them out.
This seems less like a reaction to bloodthirst and more like some handwringy attempt to smear a bunch of posters on this forum as hypocrites based on the comments of only a few people. One of whom is actually a conservative.
Like, there's more posters on this page dropping silly strawmen then there are people calling for anything but starving them out.
Armed terrorists and traitors. Just doing whatever the fuck they want.
I can't hang with that. The sooner someone is made an example of in the most efficient and stark way possible, the happier I'd be.
Jail won't do anything to them. They'll be some redneck heroes in the local pen and learn nothing except they'll probably recruit more people to their cause while in there. Because of course they'll get like six months and probation.
But hey you know, even these wackjobs finally shoot up some unamerican religious places or something I'm sure we'll just be super shocked that some home grown terrorists just showed up out of nowhere. Never saw it coming!
It's not just this thread and not just this subject. I have seen with regularity how conservatives and Republicans are deemed acceptable targets that deserve for bad things to happen to them solely because of what they believe, not what they've done. Cases of "I'm not supporting violence but I really want to see this person get hurt", "I'm not condoning it but if someone's rear window was broken to remove a Trump sticker", and just the sheer vitriol those who DO identify as conservative receive.
There is a very clear hostility that I have seen time and time again.
This isn't a mere political disagreement, they are in military uniforms with rifles illegally occupying federal property and fomenting sedition against the federal government while claiming they may use violence to resist legitimate law enforcement trying to resolve the situation.
Law enforcement should use the minimum force necessary to end the situation immediately, but they should end it immediately, and not play games. This situation right now is a result of the federal government being intimidated by a bunch of pilfering shitkickers. Weakness invites attack, this is a natural and inevitable result of them caving in to seditionists in the past.
And I agree, they do need to bring an end to this in a lawful and decisive manner. Not obliterating the building as a first and only response. The fact that someone actually publicly suggested that as a legitimate desire is baffling and concerning.
When it's white people engaging in self described rebellion and sedition, oh, let's treat them with kid gloves.
It's hard to escape the notion that judge dredd would have less advocates if its policies landed indiscriminately with regard to race.
So when I see people advocating another Waco or Ruby Ridge, I'm deeply disturbed. I have a strong dislike of sovereign citizens. But I don't think killing a few of them in a massacre is likely to do anything but grow their movement. Their entire mythos about the world is that they live under an oppressive government that takes away peoples rights or kills them without justification. If a bunch of them get killed for doing what hippies did a few decades ago, minus the guns, it's only going to add to that mythos.
I still heard at least twice tonight about patriots and how the military won't do anything because they don't follow 'Nobama'
... Like legit, these are people driving god damn BMWs with college degree saying this shit. Not Tommy the redneck.
I'd rather this be dealt with, because there are a lot of well armed crazy people in this state I'd rather not have getting creative and swearing fealty to fucking sheriff Joe.
So basically this is nothing to do with the topic of the thread or the comments in it but instead is just you looking for a platform to whinge about some perceived level of victimhood of no shown source? Lovely.
Look dude, even the few people here calling for more extreme reactions to this situation them arrest aren't doing it because these militia nutters are conservatives. So your complaints just don't hold any water.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Partridge:_Alpha_Papa
The real world is getting weeeeird people.
And giving in will also grow their movement because 'you can win!'
There isn't really a simple win scenario here.
Also Ruby ridge and Waco aren't exactly equivocal in terms of what was happening. The screw ups were awful in both cases but Waco wasnt really ending in any way that wasn't awful.
Furthermore that's why you bring in the military. None of this police crap or anything. You make it clear that they are traitors to the country and to the soldiers that these people typically idolize.
Because for some reason they hold the military in some alternate section compared to the rest of the big bad government.
Like whatever happens to them needs to be permanent though. I don't care if it's life without parole in the deep south prison system or some military solitary cells. I just want it handled as a federal/military matter and not some halfassed state solution.
It'd take some serious underhandednesess by the gov't to provoke desertion like that amongst the ranks. Not least of which, because the type of actions you speak of carry harsh penalties. Like, a member of the armed forces turning against the government and directly acting against it is basically treason.
Unfortunately there are lines the government has to cross or it starts to look weak, it's because of the lack of action on Bundy that this happened and I don't want this to become a new hobby for American militia terrorists. The last thing we need is for actions like Bundy and this to become part of American lifestyle, or being supported by elected politicians in the media - which happened with the former. It's a good thing to want the government to put down domestic terrorists and traitors, and it's lucky that they don't have any hostages. Then there's the double standard - do you seriously think if ISIS or Al Quada had done this the media would be talking about this as a "peaceful protest" and the government wouldn't be sending in the FBI/military to clamp down on them with the full weight of the US government? I don't.
No, because there wouldn't be consequences for breaking the law - all that'd prove to like-minded individuals that they too can be terrorists and won't get sent to Gitmo for it. The government can't ignore terrorists who break the law on their soil, it has a duty to protect all of us (it'd be a matter of time before someone was hurt or killed by these assholes), as well as maintaining a monopoly on political power. And y'know, punishing traitors.
Thing is, these fuckers are American citizens on American land, and probably shouldn't have a Reaper drone drop a missle on their heads. Ideally, a peaceful surrender followed by the full extent of the law should be the resolution
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
These terrorists could be left wing hippies who believe in everything I do, and my option wouldn't change one iota. This isn't about political ideology, it's about terrorism. And if you think conservatives/right wing wouldn't be baying for blood if this was arabs from the Middle East doing this in the name of ISIS I wouldn't believe you. Two word: Fox News. Another thing in this is that these people are literally traitors, which Fox News are happy to support when it's guys like Cliven Bundy. Not all conservatives or Republicans are bad, hell I'm friends with them even if I don't agree with their beliefs.
The police have Oath Keepers too, and if the Oath Keepers have compromised the military that much the American government has bigger problems then these idiots.
If it's that or the drone strike? Fuck 'em.
But realistically as long as the government commits to a siege and arrests them when they break, that should be the whole thing, without any violence.
Yes, if they were brown people the building would have been flattened with them in it by now, but that kind of response is usually predicated on an immediate threat to life that doesn't seem to be present here.
Plus, it really looks like some kind of martyrdom is what they're going for, so it makes sense to try to deny them that unless forced (i.e. they start shooting at people or something).
Now, I am no expert. But it's winter. Cut the power. And wait.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Sure. I'm ok with sieging them (cutting power/wait them out), but they shouldn't get away with this scott free. Once captured they need to have the book thrown at them. Terrorism should not be tolerated.
What kind of people join the military? A simple answer is people that like guns/war. A lot of those people join the military, and then radically change their opinion of the government after becoming part of it, either because of their experience with it or exposure to new information. Timothy McVeigh for example served in the military before he bombed Oklahoma city.
If they rally around these guys, things could get ugly.
Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
Holy shit, imagine if these people were brown
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126