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The Cologne incident and immigration/refugee troubles

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    honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Because you personally dislike them as a demographic group is not enough reason either.

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    caligynefobcaligynefob DKRegistered User regular
    I think there is a real point to criticism being met with the "you're a racist" card. The debate in Sweden and Germany has certainly been pretty one-sided in it's discourse which, I think, is part of the extreme reaction to incidents like the one in Cologne. You can't marginalize a large part of your citizens opinion and then not expect a counter-reaction. Public opinion is being swayed and come election time this will unfortunately become apparent by a massive backing of far right wing parties.

    Protectionism of own citizens is a very valid concern, especially when other parts of the society begin to suffer on behest of expenses of the refugee crisis. Sweden is a prime example of this.

    PS4 - Mrfuzzyhat
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    rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    NSDFRand wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    It would seem to me that if someone was concerned about sexual violence they would be for increased refuge immigration considering the state of refuge camps.

    Unless of course you are only worried about our people.

    I'd argue that a government's primary responsibility should be towards its own society first. Not first and only, but certainly first.

    That puts you in kinda a weird position where protocol is above people.

    Which, mind, is a thing you can think but it's quite a bullet to bite to say "sure we would reduce sexual violence but you know the rules."

    That's not even close.

    It's not exactly controversial to say that a government has an obligation to it's citizenry above non citizens. And that's not the same thing as saying fuck people because they are a different color, nor is that the same thing as endorsing policies that purposefully fuck non citizens.

    It's exactly the same thing.

    Let's say there is a rule (not arguing this point) that says citizens come first. The question is what's it worth.

    If following means people stay in camps then the answer is a whole lot.

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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    If you're a refugee, you better follow the rules of the host country to a tee. Half my family were refugees in the mid 90s because of the yugoslav wars, so I'm not even talking completely out of my ass.
    I'd even say if you're depending on the goodwill of another country, you should be on your absolute best behaviour and even be over cautious. That's just the sensible thing to do, simply because you're a minority and people will be wary of you.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    When in Rome...
    Let's be serious here, an adult refugee committing a crime damn well knows that what they're doing is wrong. Assuming that their culture is some 100% overriding bullshit is just infantilizing their intellect. And even if it is? Tough shit, equal consequences. Leniency only breeds anger for the preferential treatment in the existing population.

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    Trey NeverTrey Never Registered User regular
    There's also a bunch of concerns over media and police reporting over the cologne incident. The first time I heard of it was on Jan 3, from a poster linking a local (for them, I'm U.S) right-wing paper. I shrugged it off as typical conspiratorial nonsense from the far right, but cologne was real and the ZDF has had to apologize for its slow reporting:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/06/tensions-rise-in-germany-over-handling-of-mass-sexual-assaults-in-cologne

    Also looks like concerns are being raised about media reporting/non-reporting in Sweden now:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/12/world/europe/swedish-police-coverup-sexual-assault.html

    Apologies in advance if sources are wrong/bad/bullshit spreading, but it's hard to find English sources on the media aspect of this - which could be another spark to the kindling if true.

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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Yeah, as I said.. Right wing narrative was "media is lying" all along.

    I could've lived without them being right this time.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    wiltingwilting I had fun once and it was awful Registered User regular
    edited January 2016
    Swedish police probe 'cover up of migrant sex assaults'.
    BBC news wrote:
    "Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.

    Welp.

    wilting on
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    Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    edited January 2016
    You know what plays into the right-wing's hands even more than reporting such things?

    Not reporting such things and being exposed as liars by omission.

    Rhan9 on
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Prepare for the worst, hope for the best is not multiple choice

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • Options
    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    You know what plays into the right-wing's hands even more than reporting such things?

    Not reporting such things and being exposed as liars by omission.

    Exactly. Germany had a €10 billion tax surplus last year. Let's put some of that into real police, not just cutting internet freedom, okay?

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    wilting wrote: »
    Swedish police probe 'cover up of migrant sex assaults'.
    BBC news wrote:
    "Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.

    Welp.

    Jesus fucking Christ

  • Options
    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    wilting wrote: »
    Swedish police probe 'cover up of migrant sex assaults'.
    BBC news wrote:
    "Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.

    Welp.

    Jesus fucking Christ

    Yeah... I mean what the fuck, that quote... It's like the smoking fucking gun.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    Dishonest reporting sure as shit isn't going to make people any more positive about the migrants. It will however erode the credibility of the media in question.
    Who the hell thought this was a good idea?

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    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Rhan9 wrote: »
    Dishonest reporting sure as shit isn't going to make people any more positive about the migrants. It will however erode the credibility of the media in question.
    Who the hell thought this was a good idea?

    From what I heard it was the police being asked to cover it up, so... current politicians?

    I ate an engineer
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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Someone who's not nearly as intelligent as they think, that much is clear.

    I mean, unless your plan is to shift the countries of europe hard right fast

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    Trey NeverTrey Never Registered User regular
    Well shit. I believe in the egalitarian/humanist/liberal values as much as anyone, but covering these stories up to prevent opposing political parties from getting votes - or as pro immigration act of social engineering - is downright Orwellian abuse of power. I honestly couldn't blame anyone in Sweden for going far-right if the government is responsible for this.

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    NumiNumi Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    wilting wrote: »
    Swedish police probe 'cover up of migrant sex assaults'.
    BBC news wrote:
    "Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.

    Welp.

    Jesus fucking Christ

    Yeah... I mean what the fuck, that quote... It's like the smoking fucking gun.

    The police officer in question denied giving that actual qoute and instead talking about xenophobic forces rather than the sweden democrats in that exact context. There is another dimension to this that increases the wtf-level by an order of magnitude, namely that one of swedens major papers, Dagens Nyheter, was tipped off about the incidents all the way back when they happened but decided not to report it. The paper in question claims it is because they couldn't confirm the tip and simply gave up when the police told them nothing especially noteworthy had happened. The story as a whole got very little play in the media and seems to have been largely shelved by everyone.

    But where we start heading into conspiracy crazy town is the fact on midnight saturday-sunday one of the right-wing online publications, with some links to SD among others, published a piece that in no uncertain terms accused DN of having recieved information about the incidents and deciding to not to do fuck all about it. This ended up getting some circulation and on Sunday some headline news started showing up in the major papers but now the angle was that the police had covered it up and suddenly DN had done some "investigating" and had access to a fair number of corroborating facts and was able publish the shocking story.

    All of this fits neatly in the worldview of our happy little racists so well played I guess.

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    Panda4YouPanda4You Registered User regular
    edited January 2016
    wilting wrote: »
    Swedish police probe 'cover up of migrant sex assaults'.
    BBC news wrote:
    "Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.

    Welp.
    These claims are just right wing extremist imaginations. You're not one of those, are you?
    etc. etc.

    Panda4You on
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    Disco11Disco11 Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    rockrnger wrote: »
    It would seem to me that if someone was concerned about sexual violence they would be for increased refuge immigration considering the state of refuge camps.

    Unless of course you are only worried about our people.

    I'd argue that a government's primary responsibility should be towards its own society first. Not first and only, but certainly first.

    I don't even know how this is up for debate. I'm Canadian... I expect my prime minister to put my (Canadian) well being before any other. As I expect the Irish, British, Indian etc. leader to do for his people.

    PSN: Canadian_llama
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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Numi wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    wilting wrote: »
    Swedish police probe 'cover up of migrant sex assaults'.
    BBC news wrote:
    "Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.

    Welp.

    Jesus fucking Christ

    Yeah... I mean what the fuck, that quote... It's like the smoking fucking gun.

    The police officer in question denied giving that actual qoute and instead talking about xenophobic forces rather than the sweden democrats in that exact context. There is another dimension to this that increases the wtf-level by an order of magnitude, namely that one of swedens major papers, Dagens Nyheter, was tipped off about the incidents all the way back when they happened but decided not to report it. The paper in question claims it is because they couldn't confirm the tip and simply gave up when the police told them nothing especially noteworthy had happened. The story as a whole got very little play in the media and seems to have been largely shelved by everyone.

    But where we start heading into conspiracy crazy town is the fact on midnight saturday-sunday one of the right-wing online publications, with some links to SD among others, published a piece that in no uncertain terms accused DN of having recieved information about the incidents and deciding to not to do fuck all about it. This ended up getting some circulation and on Sunday some headline news started showing up in the major papers but now the angle was that the police had covered it up and suddenly DN had done some "investigating" and had access to a fair number of corroborating facts and was able publish the shocking story.

    All of this fits neatly in the worldview of our happy little racists so well played I guess.

    well played by whom?

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Yeah, as I said.. Right wing narrative was "media is lying" all along.

    I could've lived without them being right this time.

    Except they aren't right. It appears it's the police who've been downplaying this, not the media.

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    Trey NeverTrey Never Registered User regular
    edited January 2016
    shryke wrote: »
    Yeah, as I said.. Right wing narrative was "media is lying" all along.

    I could've lived without them being right this time.

    Except they aren't right. It appears it's the police who've been downplaying this, not the media.

    I hope that's true because it's slightly better, but the police (whether it was middle management or from the top down) should not be withholding information over possible political implications. Even if it was genuinely for more police-oriented reasons (thinking they couldn't handle large right-wing demonstrations, or that it may lead to criminal backlash against the refugees) it's still hilariously fucked up.

    Edit: In fact, I'm not sure it actually matters whether it was orchestrated by the police or by the government. If the police own up and say it was 100% them, I still don't know how you could trust that; they're admitting to a cover up for christs sakes! If they wanted to downplay the incident, and the current government has been going all out on humanitarian refugee acceptance, they're interests are aligned regardless of any specific coordination. Considering the institutions (government and police), how could you trust any investigation into whether it was government cover-up? This is just the worst.

    Edit Edit: Meant to say media, not government.

    Trey Never on
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Who knows. When reality could possibly agree with the other side truth in reporting gets real sketchy

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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    FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    Considering the intensity of this topic in Europe I'm not at all surprised this sort of thing was suppressed. I now expect a spectacular backfire

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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Yeah, as I said.. Right wing narrative was "media is lying" all along.

    I could've lived without them being right this time.

    Except they aren't right. It appears it's the police who've been downplaying this, not the media.

    It's much, much worse when it's the police! I mean, media are a business and can, in the end, report what the hell they want, it's a semi-free country. But police is there to protect the citizens. Police can not simply decide to not follow up on something because they think it's inconvenient

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    Rhan9Rhan9 Registered User regular
    Considering the intensity of this topic in Europe I'm not at all surprised this sort of thing was suppressed. I now expect a spectacular backfire

    Suppressing the information (and being exposed for doing it) will in all likelihood have a stronger effect. Some bad decisions were made.

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    NumiNumi Registered User regular
    Numi wrote: »
    TL DR wrote: »
    wilting wrote: »
    Swedish police probe 'cover up of migrant sex assaults'.
    BBC news wrote:
    "Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.

    Welp.

    Jesus fucking Christ

    Yeah... I mean what the fuck, that quote... It's like the smoking fucking gun.

    The police officer in question denied giving that actual qoute and instead talking about xenophobic forces rather than the sweden democrats in that exact context. There is another dimension to this that increases the wtf-level by an order of magnitude, namely that one of swedens major papers, Dagens Nyheter, was tipped off about the incidents all the way back when they happened but decided not to report it. The paper in question claims it is because they couldn't confirm the tip and simply gave up when the police told them nothing especially noteworthy had happened. The story as a whole got very little play in the media and seems to have been largely shelved by everyone.

    But where we start heading into conspiracy crazy town is the fact on midnight saturday-sunday one of the right-wing online publications, with some links to SD among others, published a piece that in no uncertain terms accused DN of having recieved information about the incidents and deciding to not to do fuck all about it. This ended up getting some circulation and on Sunday some headline news started showing up in the major papers but now the angle was that the police had covered it up and suddenly DN had done some "investigating" and had access to a fair number of corroborating facts and was able publish the shocking story.

    All of this fits neatly in the worldview of our happy little racists so well played I guess.

    well played by whom?

    The police and the press between them have managed quite a spectacular fuck-up, so personally I think they deserve one of those special "well played" spoken in the tone of "sit down and shut the hell up you bunch of halfwits"

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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Yeah, as I said.. Right wing narrative was "media is lying" all along.

    I could've lived without them being right this time.

    Except they aren't right. It appears it's the police who've been downplaying this, not the media.

    It's much, much worse when it's the police! I mean, media are a business and can, in the end, report what the hell they want, it's a semi-free country. But police is there to protect the citizens. Police can not simply decide to not follow up on something because they think it's inconvenient

    And nobody said that it was a good thing.

    But pretending like this is "media bias", which is what you claimed, does not seem to be supported by the facts. As of right now it appears it's been the police downplaying the issue in both Germany and Sweden, not the media.

    When complaining about a lack of accuracy in reporting, it would behove people to be accurate.

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    AbsalonAbsalon Lands of Always WinterRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    wilting wrote: »
    Swedish police probe 'cover up of migrant sex assaults'.
    BBC news wrote:
    "Sometimes we do not really say how things are because we believe it may play into the hands of the Sweden Democrats," Mr Agren told Dagens Nyheter, referring to Sweden's right-wing anti-immigration party.

    Welp.

    I don't buy that for even a second. The police didn't have the resources or planning to deal with the situation, couldn't arrange a proper response with sufficient arrests, and arranged this lie because they knew it would be a massive distraction where many would have a vested interest in instead blaming the media.

    Absalon on
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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Yeah, as I said.. Right wing narrative was "media is lying" all along.

    I could've lived without them being right this time.

    Except they aren't right. It appears it's the police who've been downplaying this, not the media.

    It's much, much worse when it's the police! I mean, media are a business and can, in the end, report what the hell they want, it's a semi-free country. But police is there to protect the citizens. Police can not simply decide to not follow up on something because they think it's inconvenient

    And nobody said that it was a good thing.

    But pretending like this is "media bias", which is what you claimed, does not seem to be supported by the facts. As of right now it appears it's been the police downplaying the issue in both Germany and Sweden, not the media.

    When complaining about a lack of accuracy in reporting, it would behove people to be accurate.

    Uh.... the media in sweden did only start reporting when prodded. And german news websites and TV magazines have actually been apologizing for being late with reporting this story...

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Yeah, as I said.. Right wing narrative was "media is lying" all along.

    I could've lived without them being right this time.

    Except they aren't right. It appears it's the police who've been downplaying this, not the media.

    It's much, much worse when it's the police! I mean, media are a business and can, in the end, report what the hell they want, it's a semi-free country. But police is there to protect the citizens. Police can not simply decide to not follow up on something because they think it's inconvenient

    They can follow up without telling everyone about it. No police force is completely transparent

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • Options
    AbsalonAbsalon Lands of Always WinterRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Yeah, as I said.. Right wing narrative was "media is lying" all along.

    I could've lived without them being right this time.

    Except they aren't right. It appears it's the police who've been downplaying this, not the media.

    It's much, much worse when it's the police! I mean, media are a business and can, in the end, report what the hell they want, it's a semi-free country. But police is there to protect the citizens. Police can not simply decide to not follow up on something because they think it's inconvenient

    And nobody said that it was a good thing.

    But pretending like this is "media bias", which is what you claimed, does not seem to be supported by the facts. As of right now it appears it's been the police downplaying the issue in both Germany and Sweden, not the media.

    When complaining about a lack of accuracy in reporting, it would behove people to be accurate.

    Uh.... the media in sweden did only start reporting when prodded. And german news websites and TV magazines have actually been apologizing for being late with reporting this story...

    Very false. They tried to verify the story in the summer. They could not receive sufficient information from the police or any witnesses/victims, and since they are actual media rather than racist/extremist blogs, they had to continue working with one of the hundred different leads they have each week, rather than make a story on a poor basis. In response to Cologne, they tried again.

    What's it called in natural sciences experiments? Type I and II errors?

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    autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    So they, by coincidence, decided they have enough to report, just right after someone else did?

    What a coinkidink

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
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    Trey NeverTrey Never Registered User regular
    No police force is completely transparent, but if you're suggesting that there's any reasonable basis for keeping people in the dark over a crime of that scale or for that long (first incident was 2014); you're wrong.

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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Nothing, actually. I meant surveillance of people who are already here because it's clear the govt's dropped the ball, what with the San Bernardino shooters and the guy who ambushed a police officer last week. It's Europe that has to up their entry standards game.
    I just can't wrap my head around why the incident seemingly were organized.
    Fun? If you're from a country where women are legally property and the police don't investigate rapes, it's very probable that you're going to have a fucked-up sense of right and wrong compared to Western standards.

    Sadly this is not wholly implausible. The attitudes towards respecting women found in eg: this forum would be simply unrecognisable to these cultures.

    See also: India.

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    V1mV1m Registered User regular
    Absalon wrote: »
    "They can't get jobs or good educations here" is probably enough of a reason. Plus, it's not every Western country's fault the Middle East is chaotic, sectarian garbage filled with bad values, traditions, morals and politicians that cause people to flee.

    No it isn't.

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    AbsalonAbsalon Lands of Always WinterRegistered User regular
    edited January 2016
    I think there is a real point to criticism being met with the "you're a racist" card.

    Anti-immigration/islam parties are never just more racist than any other parties. They are also almost always:

    More likely to be climate deniers
    More likely to be infected with manosphere/anti-feminist ideation such as the problem with false rape charges or *drumroll* hypergamy
    More likely to tolerate eliminationist, oikophobic rhetoric towards the media, the left, feminists
    More likely to be against abortion rights, transsexual rights, gay rights or promotion of women's careers
    More likely to be sexist in language or in political priorities
    More likely to forgive their politicians for extremism, slights and rhetoric they would never tolerate outside of their party
    More likely to spread unfounded rumors or slander
    More likely to dogpile critics, leading to anonymous threats, incitement, slander and bigotry sent to journalists, rival politicians, other critics
    More likely to embrace the anti-Semitic "Frankfurt School" theory and peddle it at all times
    More likely to spread Moscow propaganda
    More likely to completely ignore developments like those in Poland or Hungary, or even cheer them on despite their OBSESSIVE claims to value free speech and free press
    More likely to be Game****ers
    More likely to be anti-secular, Christian fascists.

    Yes, a lot of the immigrants and Muslims they criticize are even more regressive and nasty.

    But. But.

    Said muslims don't have a party alllll of their own to wield power and oppression through, using a monopoly on violence.

    I fear groups of immigrant or immigrant-born men more if I'm out at night. Even more than groups of young White men. Because of statistics.

    But I fear groups of White, anti-immigrant people more in all other areas and circumstances. Because of history.

    Absalon on
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    electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    For all the words spilled on this, has there been any confirmation that this was commited by refugees and not say, legal immigrants or natural born citizens?

    Frankly, the nature of the attack makes it pretty plain why police want to tread lightly: it took what, less then a week for right-wingers to decide possibly-killing any random person with the wrong skin color was a good response?

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    Trey NeverTrey Never Registered User regular
    Absalon wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Yeah, as I said.. Right wing narrative was "media is lying" all along.

    I could've lived without them being right this time.

    Except they aren't right. It appears it's the police who've been downplaying this, not the media.

    It's much, much worse when it's the police! I mean, media are a business and can, in the end, report what the hell they want, it's a semi-free country. But police is there to protect the citizens. Police can not simply decide to not follow up on something because they think it's inconvenient

    And nobody said that it was a good thing.

    But pretending like this is "media bias", which is what you claimed, does not seem to be supported by the facts. As of right now it appears it's been the police downplaying the issue in both Germany and Sweden, not the media.

    When complaining about a lack of accuracy in reporting, it would behove people to be accurate.

    Uh.... the media in sweden did only start reporting when prodded. And german news websites and TV magazines have actually been apologizing for being late with reporting this story...

    Very false. They tried to verify the story in the summer. They could not receive sufficient information from the police or any witnesses/victims, and since they are actual media rather than racist/extremist blogs, they had to continue working with one of the hundred different leads they have each week, rather than make a story on a poor basis. In response to Cologne, they tried again.

    What's it called in natural sciences experiments? Type I and II errors?

    It's not enough to conclude a media cover up, but if the police were the reason they couldn't get information about a mass crime than it's a police cover up. The fact that the information wasn't reported to the public is ample reason for suspicion of everyone involved, and the police failing to withhold the information is just as bad if not worse than the media doing so.

This discussion has been closed.